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Post by griffith82 on Jul 20, 2017 2:44:00 GMT
Wait what was unfinished exactly? Everything was solid but the endings needed polish that's it. Yeah, I'm calling BS on that. I remember the word at the time being that they threw the original endings out because they got leaked and over the course of the weekend Hudson, and I think Walters, rewrote them. Now, is that EA's fault that Bioware had a leak? Is it EA's fault that they were saying "No more delays"? Was it EA's fault that 2 guys figured they had it all handled? I really don't think most people here have any idea how businesses and corporate decision making work. People seem to think it's like some suit at EA is pointing his finger around like "You two get in a room together. No leaving all weekend. No bathroom breaks. Rewrite these endings like this and whatever you have Monday morning is going into the game" When its probably some guy at EA asking "So, whatcha gonna do? Action plan. Lets go", gets his reply, maybe a little back and forth and then "Alright. Get to work." The original ending wasn't much different tbh and it's pointless to debate. I liked what we got.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 2:48:16 GMT
Except this hiatus thing is such a stupid status to be throwing around when either way they won't be working on it for years. So giving it that status is just absurd at best. People who give it that status do so to make it seem like the end is nigh. Yeah it isn't dead dead, but I'd be surprised if we see a Mass Effect title before 2022 right now. Anthem next year (but probably 2019 after a delay), Dragon Age in 2020-2021 Only thing I could see happening is like 2 to 3 years from now some form of mega ultimate trilogy HD edition re-release as a way to test the waters with something they have confidence in as like a soft test for whether they should make Andromeda 2 or if they'll focus on pumping out a Anthem 2 and push ME to the back of the line again. You are speculating, of course... all really useless predictions actually. I'm not going to start predicting such things as what year we'll see another Mass Effect... I don't have a crystal ball and I sincerely doubt you have one either. It may just boil down to Aaryn not wanting to decide on things like whether or not to go forward with DLC just prior to leaving and Casey just wanting some time to catch up before deciding on such things. We may see some more definite announcements from Casey after he's been in the job a couple weeks. We'll just have to wait to see what happens.
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Post by ATR16 on Jul 20, 2017 2:49:00 GMT
Yeah, I'm calling BS on that. I remember the word at the time being that they threw the original endings out because they got leaked and over the course of the weekend Hudson, and I think Walters, rewrote them. Now, is that EA's fault that Bioware had a leak? Is it EA's fault that they were saying "No more delays"? Was it EA's fault that 2 guys figured they had it all handled? I really don't think most people here have any idea how businesses and corporate decision making work. People seem to think it's like some suit at EA is pointing his finger around like "You two get in a room together. No leaving all weekend. No bathroom breaks. Rewrite these endings like this and whatever you have Monday morning is going into the game" When its probably some guy at EA asking "So, whatcha gonna do? Action plan. Lets go", gets his reply, maybe a little back and forth and then "Alright. Get to work." The original ending wasn't much different tbh and it's pointless to debate. I liked what we got. I'm not really debating the endings. More just bothered by how some people seem to think some evil guy at EA was like "Change the ending to this! I command you to do so! This will make the money!" and the whole team was like "yes we obey your command that is the ending now"
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 20, 2017 2:51:58 GMT
The original ending wasn't much different tbh and it's pointless to debate. I liked what we got. I'm not really debating the endings. More just bothered by how some people seem to think some evil guy at EA was like "Change the ending to this! I command you to do so! This will make the money!" and the whole team was like "yes we obey your command that is the ending now" Oh sorry I misunderstood. In that case I agree that's not what happened.
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 20, 2017 3:09:20 GMT
Again, must point out the rumor of Hudson and Walters doing it on their own a fabrication still. Yeah, very easily could be. But its not like it was EA's fault. The endings were written and produced in house. EA already gave them one or two delays on the game. At some point, no more and you have to get your job done. Its like writing a paper in college or most deadlines in business. Sometimes you can get it extended but only so much. Eventually you have to have your work finished. If your work isn't good, it isn't someone elses fault. That does imply, however, that they thought the ending wasn't good internally. Everything points to that not being the case at all, by a lot of the members of the team. I always said the biggest two issues to the end were it suffered from being too logical to justify the Reapers and there was no true catharsis moment. The extended cut fixed the lack of catharsis, which the game sorely needed, and the ending...it's still too logical in an action game all things considered but i'm a sucker for symbolic stuff like that; damn if it wasn't deserved after 150 hours.
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Post by Sondergaard on Jul 20, 2017 6:29:50 GMT
I'm not really debating the endings. More just bothered by how some people seem to think some evil guy at EA was like "Change the ending to this! I command you to do so! This will make the money!" and the whole team was like "yes we obey your command that is the ending now" Oh sorry I misunderstood. In that case I agree that's not what happened. I haven't heard anyone make that argument actually. Rightly or wrongly Hudson and Walters get all the blame. If EA set a deadline that's their prerogative. Casey and Mac gave us a poorly executed ending that made little narrative sense.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jul 20, 2017 11:03:55 GMT
Hey guys can we get back on topic? Your beating a dead horse that's been reduced to ashes.😑
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Post by PillarBiter on Jul 20, 2017 12:44:37 GMT
I love the defeatism and sweet sweet cynicism in your topic title. It's so tangible I can almost cut it with a knife and spread it on a piece of toast. I bet it tastes nectary.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2017 14:49:13 GMT
Yeah, I'm calling BS on that. I remember the word at the time being that they threw the original endings out because they got leaked and over the course of the weekend Hudson, and I think Walters, rewrote them. Now, is that EA's fault that Bioware had a leak? Is it EA's fault that they were saying "No more delays"? Was it EA's fault that 2 guys figured they had it all handled? I really don't think most people here have any idea how businesses and corporate decision making work. People seem to think it's like some suit at EA is pointing his finger around like "You two get in a room together. No leaving all weekend. No bathroom breaks. Rewrite these endings like this and whatever you have Monday morning is going into the game" When its probably some guy at EA asking "So, whatcha gonna do? Action plan. Lets go", gets his reply, maybe a little back and forth and then "Alright. Get to work." Again, must point out the rumor of Hudson and Walters doing it on their own a fabrication still. Even if it was, as the Project Director and Lead Writer, they still okayed it. It's still on them.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2017 14:52:37 GMT
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016... Did it ever go away? I really wish it would. I mean it's a game for christ's sake. What I wonder is if people hung up over this still half a decade later must have absolutely no real issues of consequence in their life. Because if they did, I think they might realize that of all the things to get hung up on, this would be the most absurd. The only situation where it might make sense to me that people were still troubled over it is if the games were their go to thing to help them feel better when RL shit got to them. Then it would make sense that someone messed up something they used to help them deal. Otherwise, just deal and move on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 15:40:22 GMT
I really wish it would. I mean it's a game for christ's sake. What I wonder is if people hung up over this still half a decade later must have absolutely no real issues of consequence in their life. Because if they did, I think they might realize that of all the things to get hung up on, this would be the most absurd. The only situation where it might make sense to me that people were still troubled over it is if the games were their go to thing to help them feel better when RL shit got to them. Then it would make sense that someone messed up something they used to help them deal. Otherwise, just deal and move on. Excuse me? Being pissed now over how a game ended half a decade ago shows people really have shit coping skills, need to get a life, or need to seek help. It is a game. If people can't understand that then they might want to seek psychiatric help.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 15:46:40 GMT
It has been 5 years since I played ME3. I never recall seeing much explained in the EC. Well, given that it shows pictures of Jack looking still relatively the same age and Tali, it can't be that far into the future. Whether or not the overall state of the galaxy is much better off than where it was at the end is unknown. Sounds like the people of the Milky Way rebuilt in record time... plothole much? It has been 5 years since I played ME3. I never recall seeing much explained in the EC. You might want to reload the ending and watch the slides. That would prove difficult as the 360 I played ME3 on as well as the game, has long since been sold in order to jump into PC gaming.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2017 15:47:56 GMT
Excuse me? Being pissed now over how a game ended half a decade ago shows people really have shit coping skills, need to get a life, or need to seek help. It is a game. If people can't understand that then they might want to seek psychiatric help. Word of advice: Telling people who disagree with you that they are mentally ill for having a different opinion is a sh*t argument.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 15:50:21 GMT
In all endings: - Relays are nonfunctional
- Collective civilization is in ruin
- Millions are dead
- Governments are on the verge of collapse
If that isn't a destroyed galaxy to you, then your definition of "destroyed" is unreasonably optimistic. Again, weren't the last three bullet points true before we get to the endings? Erhm... yeah? What point are you making? Besides ME3 demolished everything even before the *retch* endings.
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 20, 2017 16:33:42 GMT
Again, must point out the rumor of Hudson and Walters doing it on their own a fabrication still. Even if it was, as the Project Director and Lead Writer, they still okayed it. It's still on them. And, as per the conversation, they oked it because they thought it was ok. It's only on them because people didn't like what they did.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jul 20, 2017 17:59:14 GMT
Even if it was, as the Project Director and Lead Writer, they still okayed it. It's still on them. And, as per the conversation, they oked it because they thought it was ok. It's only on them because people didn't like what they did. And it's part of their job to produce stuff that people like, so if they fail in that regard, they fairly get called out on it.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 20, 2017 20:26:11 GMT
Again, weren't the last three bullet points true before we get to the endings? Erhm... yeah? What point are you making? Besides ME3 demolished everything even before the *retch* endings. Just pushing for intellectual clarity here. Your problem isn't with the endings, it's with the entire design vision of the game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 20:26:54 GMT
Erhm... yeah? What point are you making? Besides ME3 demolished everything even before the *retch* endings. Just pushing for intellectual clarity here. Your problem isn't with the endings, it's with the entire design vision of the game. It's with the last 10% or so.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 20, 2017 20:42:42 GMT
Oh sorry I misunderstood. In that case I agree that's not what happened. I haven't heard anyone make that argument actually. Rightly or wrongly Hudson and Walters get all the blame. If EA set a deadline that's their prerogative. Casey and Mac gave us a poorly executed ending that made little narrative sense. I don't agree. It may not be what everyone wanted but it wasn't bad imo.
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 20, 2017 20:45:22 GMT
And, as per the conversation, they oked it because they thought it was ok. It's only on them because people didn't like what they did. And it's part of their job to produce stuff that people like, so if they fail in that regard, they fairly get called out on it. Sure, except people tend to like too many different things for that to be an acceptable excuse. I also don't think people are in any way allowed to demand what was created be changed either, and that is what is thrown around liberally by fanbases when it comes to games it seems. That is why fan edits exist, play that instead if you desire it because you think it's better. To quote Neil Gaiman: Ultimately, the decision made by BioWare was theirs because that's how they felt it should end. Not liking something is one thing, calling them out and making demands is another. And hell, it's not like they didn't listen in the end anyway. Ive argued Andromeda played it too safe before- it's clear they didn't want to handle further baggage just in case, they just wanted to produce stuff that people like, and on paper it should have worked since the game is a literal check-box of ideas, themes and modular moments to capture that feeling. It was the antithesis of what people hated about Mass Effect 3, and people hated this more because it was too risk-adverse. I guess that is what calling them out and demanding they produce what we like gets us versus them making their own art.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jul 20, 2017 20:50:03 GMT
And it's part of their job to produce stuff that people like, so if they fail in that regard, they fairly get called out on it. Sure, except people tend to like too many different things for that to be an acceptable excuse. Eh, whether you agree with it or not, it's part of the job of anybody who's selling entertainment to be successful in selling and producing that entertainment. And this is no secret. They get the kudos when something goes right, and they get blamed when stuff goes wrong.
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 20, 2017 20:52:09 GMT
Sure, except people tend to like too many different things for that to be an acceptable excuse. Eh, whether you agree with it or not, it's part of the job of anybody who's selling entertainment to be successful in selling and producing that entertainment. And this is no secret. They get the kudos when something goes right, and they get blamed when stuff goes wrong. Oh I know it's part of the job. A part that no doubt sucks for all in it at times. I would just wish the people looking on the outside-in gain a perspective on things and actually tone it down a bit.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jul 20, 2017 20:58:22 GMT
Eh, whether you agree with it or not, it's part of the job of anybody who's selling entertainment to be successful in selling and producing that entertainment. And this is no secret. They get the kudos when something goes right, and they get blamed when stuff goes wrong. Oh I know it's part of the job. A part that no doubt sucks for all in it at times. I would just wish the people looking on the outside-in gain a perspective on things and actually tone it down a bit.That's a separate issue, as was all the stuff you mentioned about the fans asking for a re-worked ending (one that made sense, if anyone's played the original ending there were just serious issues with it besides Starbrat). I think one thing to keep in mind is that we have social media now. Used to be, the way we knew a game was unsuccessful was by the number of copies sold and maybe some game press... then game forums became more main stream then there was Twitter and Facebook. Now we all know what everybody's thinking about everything. Until we all learn to adjust to that, it definitely is going to seem like the volume is way too loud when it comes to consumer feedback, or politics, or whatever else.
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 20, 2017 21:05:11 GMT
Oh I know it's part of the job. A part that no doubt sucks for all in it at times. I would just wish the people looking on the outside-in gain a perspective on things and actually tone it down a bit.That's a separate issue, as was all the stuff you mentioned about the fans asking for a re-worked ending (one that made sense, if anyone's played the original ending there were just serious issues with it besides Starbrat). I think one thing to keep in mind is that we have social media now. Used to be, the way we knew a game was unsuccessful was by the number of copies sold and maybe some game press... then game forums became more main stream then there was Twitter and Facebook. Now we all know what everybody's thinking about everything. Until we all learn to adjust to that, it definitely is going to seem like the volume is way too loud when it comes to consumer feedback, or politics, or whatever else. I don't believe it's separate at all, mostly because it's our own responsibility to curate our link, so to speak. Take, for example, how Andromeda has been fixed. We had Ian Frazier here asking feedback before release, after the demo was out, everyone gave them feedback, plus more attached as the game was played a bit. Lo and behold, the changes and updates to the game through the patches are on the very feedback given...changes that still anger people because they feel it's not fixing things properly or catering to the wrong audience. Heres the rub; using these tools, we have adjusted, somewhat, as its easy to gain information quickly and discuss it. What we don't do sometimes is parse through it properly, and then the good bits of criticism to have is drowned out by the masses acting like children. We should be more responsible in what we actually present or discuss. Knowing what people are thinking is meaningless if we don't know how to respond to it properly.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 20, 2017 21:06:58 GMT
Just pushing for intellectual clarity here. Your problem isn't with the endings, it's with the entire design vision of the game. It's with the last 10% or so. I don't see how you derived that figure. The galaxy is thoroughly trashed over the entire course of the game, starting right from the beginning. The batarians are crushed before the game even starts, Earth is a ruin before we're out of the prologue, Palaven follows right after, Thessia gets its turn at about the 3/4 mark (depending on sidequest order). Other planets are being continually swallowed up on the map all through the game.
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