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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 23:07:59 GMT
Hmmm... on one hand you claim you're apathetic about her character; but on the other you mentioned her dialogue specifically as one you're still hoping they "patch out." Seems like a lot to ask of a developer for a character you're apathetic over. As for others disliking her... well, others disliked Udina and Joker and Anderson and Wrex and Ashley and Miranda and Jack and Kaidan... parts of the fan base have disllked every single character Bioware has created and others have like them. I think that's actually proof that they make strong characters... people are very seldom truly apathetic about any of them. I never said anything about outright disliking the character, it's just I found the particular bit of dialogue to be somewhat embarrassing. Another one was Liam's "Shot that guy in the face" comment very early on. Then again, the first hour was probably the most awkward one, it was slow like ME1's first hour, but it was also awkward, afterwards it starts feeling like ME1 but with more open world elements. Come on now... is Liam's off-handed comment during a battle really any more awkward than Tali's "There's nothing faster than Chatika von Pas." followed by "Go for the optics, Chatika, go for the optics." or how about Jacob's "Gravity's one mean mother, huh?" or Miranda running around saying 'Night, night." Or how about this one: Zaeed asking Grunt during Mordin's recruitment mission "Is there any smell that doesn't make you hungry?" My point is that there have been awkward lines in all the Mass Effect games that Bioware have never gone back in and re-recorded. I really found the first hour of ME:A no more awkward for dialogue than the first hour of ME2... with a Shepard who has allegedly been in a come for two years starting things off by saying "This pistol doesn't have a thermal clip."
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 26, 2017 23:12:06 GMT
I like Shepard, but I'd put her below the Dragon Age protags, which can generally come off as being more charming or amusing, but most of all, intelligent. Shep was my first Bioware protag, and she will always have a special place (all four of them, the fifth never made ME3). (The ME3 import did terrible thing to faces I have to say, looking back on it - even with the lazarus mod). But in comparison to Ryder, she is a bit weak as a character. I'd class her as a one dimensional badass; there is hardly ever a moment where she is just normal. She always has to be superwoman; a never failing player insert. I think the nadir is Rannoch where all she has to do is shout to stop a 300 year old war. My (now two) Ryders are already more memorable as characters, if not for her one-liners. Ugh the face import stunk. Luckily I prefer the default FemShep model for ME3.
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Post by Arcian on Jul 27, 2017 0:19:42 GMT
Your standards must be very low indeed if that is what you think. And who the hell are you judge someone else for liking something you don't? What makes your fucking standards so superior? You were told before not to be a dick about it. You want to dislike the game fine. DON'T BE A DICK. On a serious note, it was a facetious response to a facetious statement.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 27, 2017 0:45:48 GMT
In my NG+ I'm loving finding things I missed like the Cerberus side quest and nods to Miranda and the Lazarus project.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 27, 2017 0:50:07 GMT
Sigh. TW3 and HZD are highly regarded, story-driven RPGs, and they are both unrelentingly open world. And Skyrim, while not being particularly story-driven, is still one of the most popular open world FRPGs of all time. Correlation is not causation. Open world is not the problem. Devs who don't know how to drive story through gameplay is the problem. However, you're failing to acknowledge a major difference in the type of story Bioware tries to tell as opposed to CDProjekt Red (I can't speak for HZD because I'm on an Xbox One, so it's not available). TW3 does not try to incorporate personality-changing character development into the story. Geralt is Geralt and the player hasn't even got a limited option to make a "renegade" Geralt vs. a "paragon" one. The choices may impact the story plot really only in a way that determines who shows up to help in the final battle, but they do not impact the development of a variety of personalities for the PC. I'm not convinced CDProjekt Red would be able to accomplish a Geralt with multiple different personalities within that open-world setting of TW3 any better than Bioware has with Ryder in ME:A. I just think that the public doesn't expect that sort of thing from a Witcher game... so they don't miss it. They already complain incessantly about not having enough personality choice with Ryder... I think they would complain all the more if their personality choices were as limited with Ryder as they are with Geralt. No, I'm failing to acknowledge that any of that has anything to do with a causal linkage between open world and ... well, anything having to do with story. We're just going to have to agree to disagree about, "does not try to incorporate personality-changing character development into the story." "Geralt is Geralt," is extremely reductionist, and does a disservice to nuance over epic. He changes, and the decisions you make have a real impact, though on a more personal, character relationship level, rather than the traditional Bioware save-the-world/galaxy level. And with respect to, "the player hasn't even got a limited option to make a 'renegade' ... vs. a 'paragon' one," I thought for a moment you were talking about DAI, not TW3. Don't get me wrong. I love me my Bioware games too, and who doesn't like epic? I just wouldn't mind if Bioware tried adding a few other arrows to the old story quiver.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 27, 2017 0:56:24 GMT
If anything it's the bandwagon haters who have joined me, not the other way around. I hated the very idea of this game back when it was being floated around by fans in Casey's "Tell us what you want for the next Mass Effect game thread" on old-prime BSN. While I pretty much disagree with everything Arcian has ever said ever, this is the stone cold truth. Arcian was way ahead of the groupthink in terms of hating on MEA. I saw it with my own eyes. FML.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 27, 2017 1:13:47 GMT
The approach BioWare takes for their story and characters requires a more fixed environment to help propel the story forward I'm sorry, but without some kind of explanation that I can understand, this just sounds like leaping to conclusions to me. There's no reason that I can think of that would make that statement be true. I mean, I even disagree with the premise: a good story shouldn't need any kind of external impetus to move it forward, it should move forward on it's own merits. The player should, organically -- without coercion or trickery -- want to move the story forward. I think a pretty good definition of a "bad story" is one that needs external impetus.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 27, 2017 3:02:04 GMT
If anything it's the bandwagon haters who have joined me, not the other way around. I hated the very idea of this game back when it was being floated around by fans in Casey's "Tell us what you want for the next Mass Effect game thread" on old-prime BSN. While I pretty much disagree with everything Arcian has ever said ever, this is the stone cold truth. Arcian was way ahead of the groupthink in terms of hating on MEA. I saw it with my own eyes. FML. I remember.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 27, 2017 3:55:29 GMT
While I pretty much disagree with everything Arcian has ever said ever, this is the stone cold truth. Arcian was way ahead of the groupthink in terms of hating on MEA. I saw it with my own eyes. FML. I remember. Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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Post by antmarch456 on Jul 27, 2017 5:33:28 GMT
On one hand, Arcian is fine simply because even though she didn't fully play the game herself, she at least took the time to watch the main story from a playthrough (assuming this is true). Also, what kotoreffect3 said goes both ways: Who the hell are we to judge Arcian for disliking a game we like? And who the hell is Arcian to judge us for liking a game she doesn't. You can love or hate a game, but don't be an asshole to other people who doesn't share the same opinion as you, or else you are no better than the others. Edit: Also, it's kind of silly arguing over a plastic box.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2017 5:50:44 GMT
On one hand, Arcian is fine simply because even though she didn't fully play the game herself, she at least took the time to watch the main story from a playthrough (assuming this is true). Also, what kotoreffect3 said goes both ways: Who the hell are we to judge Arcian for disliking a game we like? And who the hell is Arcian to judge us for liking a game she doesn't. You can love or hate a game, but don't be an asshole to other people who doesn't share the same opinion as you, or else you are no better than the others. Edit: Also, it's kind of silly arguing over a plastic box. I'm just scratching my head over what halo has to do with anything
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jul 27, 2017 6:26:13 GMT
Because Halo used to be the greatest back in the days, just like Mass Effect did? Maybe? Holy heck. I'm really watching the downfall of my favorite franchises. At least The New Colossus is near.
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Post by Guts on Jul 27, 2017 7:01:16 GMT
On one hand, Arcian is fine simply because even though she didn't fully play the game herself, she at least took the time to watch the main story from a playthrough (assuming this is true). Also, what kotoreffect3 said goes both ways: Who the hell are we to judge Arcian for disliking a game we like? And who the hell is Arcian to judge us for liking a game she doesn't. You can love or hate a game, but don't be an asshole to other people who doesn't share the same opinion as you, or else you are no better than the others. Edit: Also, it's kind of silly arguing over a plastic box. Arcian has very good reasons to dislike the game, but criticizing someone for having a different opinion is flat out idiotic. Side note: It seems pretty silly for someone to mistake their opinions for facts. I think what would constitute a fact about ME:A reception wise is: "Mass Effect: Andromeda is a very subjective game, either you'll like it or you won't" What would constitute an opinion about ME:A would be either, "Mass Effect: Andromeda is the worst game in the franchise." Or, "Mass Effect Andromeda is my personal GoTY."
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2017 7:08:26 GMT
Because Halo used to be the greatest back in the days, just like Mass Effect did? Maybe? Holy heck. I'm really watching the downfall of my favorite franchises. At least The New Colossus is near. Nah thats not it.
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 27, 2017 7:32:20 GMT
The approach BioWare takes for their story and characters requires a more fixed environment to help propel the story forward I'm sorry, but without some kind of explanation that I can understand, this just sounds like leaping to conclusions to me. There's no reason that I can think of that would make that statement be true. I mean, I even disagree with the premise: a good story shouldn't need any kind of external impetus to move it forward, it should move forward on it's own merits. The player should, organically -- without coercion or trickery -- want to move the story forward. I think a pretty good definition of a "bad story" is one that needs external impetus. I'm fairly certain that's a basic of storytelling in any form. The more organic the story; the more entertaining it will be. --Note: this does not mean that individuals will not find it entertaining, but the size of your audience that is entertained increases the more organic a story is. HOWEVER, in my experience, Bioware delivers character driven stories/plots. Hence the love/hate relationships people have with characters from Bioware's games. If the characters were shite, people would lose interest in the "gather army, fight bad guy that wants to destroy the world" fantasy or sci-fi version of the one story Bioware tells. At least Andromeda attempts to break away from that with the Kett, who doesn't really want to destroy everything, but they will if you don't follow their religion.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2017 7:37:34 GMT
Honestly though video game narratives are facing two big problems moving forward. The size of the world, and the number of people playing in them, increase the amount of players in a game (MMOs) or the distance traveled (RPGs) then you could have your narrative get stretched to the point of meaninglessness.
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 27, 2017 8:34:18 GMT
Honestly though video game narratives are facing two big problems moving forward. The size of the world, and the number of people playing in them, increase the amount of players in a game (MMOs) or the distance traveled (RPGs) then you could have your narrative get stretched to the point of meaninglessness. Which, IMO, is something that isn't new. Yes, it's new in that the size of the playable environment has increased exponentially over the past decade, but, as technology advances, being able to render these wide open worlds is becoming easier. What's not new is the unlimited perspective that a video game player can have and how difficult it can be to mold that perspective into a plot that doesn't feel forced. A good writer can use technical limitations to frame a narrative, but a true artist can blend the world to frame the narrative. I don't think the narratives are "suffering" because of advanced technology; I think the narratives have always been of the same quality, but technology makes the flaws more and more obvious. Now, MMO narratives are a terribly complex issue on their own. IMO, I don't think we yet have the technology to tell a great MMO story. When we can manage do something like the old NWN persistent worlds, instead of the "instances" of WoW, but with the same story developments, maybe we'll be able to get something great...but afaik, we're not quite there yet... I hope that kind of makes sense...I'm not really a writer, so most of this is just my opinion....
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2017 8:42:18 GMT
Honestly though video game narratives are facing two big problems moving forward. The size of the world, and the number of people playing in them, increase the amount of players in a game (MMOs) or the distance traveled (RPGs) then you could have your narrative get stretched to the point of meaninglessness. Which, IMO, is something that isn't new. Yes, it's new in that the size of the playable environment has increased exponentially over the past decade, but, as technology advances, being able to render these wide open worlds is becoming easier. What's not new is the unlimited perspective that a video game player can have and how difficult it can be to mold that perspective into a plot that doesn't feel forced. A good writer can use technical limitations to frame a narrative, but a true artist can blend the world to frame the narrative. I don't think the narratives are "suffering" because of advanced technology; I think the narratives have always been of the same quality, but technology makes the flaws more and more obvious. Now, MMO narratives are a terribly complex issue on their own. IMO, I don't think we yet have the technology to tell a great MMO story. When we can manage do something like the old NWN persistent worlds, instead of the "instances" of WoW, but with the same story developments, maybe we'll be able to get something great...but afaik, we're not quite there yet... I hope that kind of makes sense...I'm not really a writer, so most of this is just my opinion.... I guess in this vein the problem is not really one of writing or technology but balancing the two (resources). The larger the maps you have the more you are going to have to fill those maps with 'something' to do but the more you run the risk of having tedious fetch quests because you may run out of resources to do BOTH great quest content as well as a LARGE vibrant 'open' world. Otherwise you end up with large maps, with nothing really to do with them, or large maps with a bunch of little tedious bull crap... And while I didn't have problems with MEAs side quests per se I know others did. So its a worthy discussion to have.
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Post by Arcian on Jul 27, 2017 8:44:01 GMT
On one hand, Arcian is fine simply because even though she didn't fully play the game herself, she at least took the time to watch the main story from a playthrough (assuming this is true). Also, what kotoreffect3 said goes both ways: Who the hell are we to judge Arcian for disliking a game we like? And who the hell is Arcian to judge us for liking a game she doesn't. You can love or hate a game, but don't be an asshole to other people who doesn't share the same opinion as you, or else you are no better than the others. Edit: Also, it's kind of silly arguing over a plastic box. I'm just scratching my head over what halo has to do with anything The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 8:46:34 GMT
This thread has been entertaining.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2017 8:48:49 GMT
I'm just scratching my head over what halo has to do with anything The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. Comparing the flood to exaltation is a bit of a stretch. though I recognize the basic plot structure is the same. But then the that can be said for probably a lot of sci fi.
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 27, 2017 9:04:04 GMT
I'm just scratching my head over what halo has to do with anything The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. When I drew the lines between Halo and Andromeda, I left out the flood. I can't find a sturdy comparison. BUT, the Covenant are not a "race" of aliens. They are multiple races of aliens. Races subjugated by the covenant to follow their beliefs. Which...sounds like the Kett in a nutshell. Then we add in the parallels of Remnant v. Forerunners and...yeah...welcome to Andromeda, Master Chief. I wonder if people don't see the resemblance because the AI in your head is male...
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Post by Arcian on Jul 27, 2017 9:08:45 GMT
The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. When I drew the lines between Halo and Andromeda, I left out the flood. I can't find a sturdy comparison. BUT, the Covenant are not a "race" of aliens. They are multiple races of aliens. Races subjugated by the covenant to follow their beliefs. Which...sounds like the Kett in a nutshell. Then we add in the parallels of Remnant v. Forerunners and...yeah...welcome to Andromeda, Master Chief. If anything, the Reapers and their husks acted as a technological version of the Flood, from both a practical and symbolic standpoint. So that card had already been played in the trilogy.
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 27, 2017 12:42:09 GMT
The approach BioWare takes for their story and characters requires a more fixed environment to help propel the story forward I'm sorry, but without some kind of explanation that I can understand, this just sounds like leaping to conclusions to me. There's no reason that I can think of that would make that statement be true. I mean, I even disagree with the premise: a good story shouldn't need any kind of external impetus to move it forward, it should move forward on it's own merits. The player should, organically -- without coercion or trickery -- want to move the story forward. I think a pretty good definition of a "bad story" is one that needs external impetus. This is always a personal opinion so I am not sure why I have to explain myself, but let me try. I also don't have a lot of experience with The Witcher since I wasn't having fun and walked away. The best way I can describe it is what they focus the story on. With BioWare is all about the characters and protagonist where the majority of their story expands they develop those characters by having specific side quests to help them out and how they react to the static quest to "stop generic and boring bad guy". With the Witcher the experience I had was that Geralt is a fixed character you can have a good expectation that the world will change more then he will just like an action/adventure game.
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PapaCharlie9
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 27, 2017 15:43:40 GMT
Honestly though video game narratives are facing two big problems moving forward. The size of the world, and the number of people playing in them, increase the amount of players in a game (MMOs) or the distance traveled (RPGs) then you could have your narrative get stretched to the point of meaninglessness. A good writer can use technical limitations to frame a narrative, but a true artist can blend the world to frame the narrative. I don't think the narratives are "suffering" because of advanced technology; I think the narratives have always been of the same quality, but technology makes the flaws more and more obvious. I couldn't agree more. If there is a flaw, it's not in the size of the world, it's in writers fighting against the world instead of adapting to it. So, if the belief is that a Bioware-style story can't work in an open world, all that is saying is that Bioware writers have yet to learn how to write stories for an open world. And since other devs have successfully written good stories in open worlds, albeit not Bioware-style, there is at least some reason to believe that it can be done.
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