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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 15:52:00 GMT
A good writer can use technical limitations to frame a narrative, but a true artist can blend the world to frame the narrative. I don't think the narratives are "suffering" because of advanced technology; I think the narratives have always been of the same quality, but technology makes the flaws more and more obvious. I couldn't agree more. If there is a flaw, it's not in the size of the world, it's in writers fighting against the world instead of adapting to it. So, if the belief is that a Bioware-style story can't work in an open world, all that is saying is that Bioware writers have yet to learn how to write stories for an open world. And since other devs have successfully written good stories in open worlds, albeit not Bioware-style, there is at least some reason to believe that it can be done. I can agree with this and I hope that Bioware can better adapt their style of story-telling to an open-world format... although I don't believe that an open-world format is the be all and end all in gaming. I can readily enjoy a linear style of story telling within a game just as I actually enjoy shorter games more than the inordinately long ones currently being produced. I honestly don't think that 200+ side quests (even if they all were well written) is tangibly better than 20 side quests within the framework of a well gated strong story that "pulls" the player through a linear progression of the events and allows for logical changes to the characters' personalities based on those events. I actually think all this open-wrold business is more of a popular fad (like the hula hoop) than a universally "better" way to write a game. I also think Bioware did some things in Andromeda better than CD Projekt Red did in TW3. The presentation of background material and a lot of the little stories within very minor side quests leading to possible realizations of how those little things connected into the greater whole of the story was, IMO, better done in ME:A. As a player who had not played any previous Witcher games and had not read any of the novels, I absolutely hated the "little book" loot in TW3 which totally jumbled the backstory and served more to confuse me with regards to the main story than help with it.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 27, 2017 15:56:45 GMT
I guess in this vein the problem is not really one of writing or technology but balancing the two (resources). The larger the maps you have the more you are going to have to fill those maps with 'something' to do but the more you run the risk of having tedious fetch quests because you may run out of resources to do BOTH great quest content as well as a LARGE vibrant 'open' world. Otherwise you end up with large maps, with nothing really to do with them, or large maps with a bunch of little tedious bull crap... I wholeheartedly agree with your main point: larger worlds need to have something fun to do in them. But what's "fun" need not have anything to do with the story. Consider Skyrim, which arguably is pretty weak with respect to story. It's still one of the most actively played and loved games on Steam. Why? Because a) it's highly moddable, so modders have been steadily creating new content to play, and it's a sandbox. You can ignore the main quest completely and go do whatever you want, including rolling 10,000 cheese wheels down a mountain, if that's what's fun for you. All that open space should be filled with emergent gameplay opportunities, e.g., sandboxing. Let me build my own castle and go make war on my neighbor. Let me wander the world as an itinerant blacksmith, mining ore and making gear to earn the 10,000 gold that I set as my own victory condition. Let me kill every NPC in existence, with extra points if the kill is environmental, like I bump them off a cliff. Play is limited only by the reasonably realistic rules of the simulation and your own imagination. Also, size and open world aren't necessarily related. Usually open worlds are larger than closed ones, but that need not be true -- Deus Ex:Mankind Divided is a small semi-open worldish game, with the main Prague map being tiny in comparison to say, Skyrim, but still featuring both sandboxing/emergent gameplay and some decent story quests, though the main quest is a bit of a botch. Point being, if a budget is limited, I would much rather see a game downsized but still open world, rather than made a closed world or left large and filled with junk content.
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Post by cypherj on Jul 27, 2017 16:17:38 GMT
I guess in this vein the problem is not really one of writing or technology but balancing the two (resources). The larger the maps you have the more you are going to have to fill those maps with 'something' to do but the more you run the risk of having tedious fetch quests because you may run out of resources to do BOTH great quest content as well as a LARGE vibrant 'open' world. Otherwise you end up with large maps, with nothing really to do with them, or large maps with a bunch of little tedious bull crap... I wholeheartedly agree with your main point: larger worlds need to have something fun to do in them. But what's "fun" need not have anything to do with the story. Consider Skyrim, which arguably is pretty weak with respect to story. It's still one of the most actively played and loved games on Steam. Why? Because a) it's highly moddable, so modders have been steadily creating new content to play, and it's a sandbox. You can ignore the main quest completely and go do whatever you want, including rolling 10,000 cheese wheels down a mountain, if that's what's fun for you. All that open space should be filled with emergent gameplay opportunities, e.g., sandboxing. Let me build my own castle and go make war on my neighbor. Let me wander the world as an itinerant blacksmith, mining ore and making gear to earn the 10,000 gold that I set as my own victory condition. Let me kill every NPC in existence, with extra points if the kill is environmental, like I bump them off a cliff. Play is limited only by the reasonably realistic rules of the simulation and your own imagination. It's not just a lot of mods to use, it's extremely easy to create your own with the tools they offer. I created a character with their own quest line, new locations and voiced characters. It was not overly complicated either. Also, you can actually explore in Skyrim. You go into a random cave you could be in there 15-20 minutes exploring, solving puzzles, and then you may end up with something that starts a quest that sends you somewhere else. In ME:A, there's pretty much nothing aside from the location marked on the map. You spend a lot of time just driving from symbol to symbol, but there really wasn't much to discover. Imagine if you were driving around in the Nomad, found some cave, got out and descended into some subterranean cavern. Some pocket of what the planet used to look like because it was protected from the scourge. Discover some new crafting mats, animals, some tech left behind that you could then study and lead you somewhere else. More places where you could have used lights on your suit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 16:21:46 GMT
I guess in this vein the problem is not really one of writing or technology but balancing the two (resources). The larger the maps you have the more you are going to have to fill those maps with 'something' to do but the more you run the risk of having tedious fetch quests because you may run out of resources to do BOTH great quest content as well as a LARGE vibrant 'open' world. Otherwise you end up with large maps, with nothing really to do with them, or large maps with a bunch of little tedious bull crap... I wholeheartedly agree with your main point: larger worlds need to have something fun to do in them. But what's "fun" need not have anything to do with the story. Consider Skyrim, which arguably is pretty weak with respect to story. It's still one of the most actively played and loved games on Steam. Why? Because a) it's highly moddable, so modders have been steadily creating new content to play, and it's a sandbox. You can ignore the main quest completely and go do whatever you want, including rolling 10,000 cheese wheels down a mountain, if that's what's fun for you. All that open space should be filled with emergent gameplay opportunities, e.g., sandboxing. Let me build my own castle and go make war on my neighbor. Let me wander the world as an itinerant blacksmith, mining ore and making gear to earn the 10,000 gold that I set as my own victory condition. Let me kill every NPC in existence, with extra points if the kill is environmental, like I bump them off a cliff. Play is limited only by the reasonably realistic rules of the simulation and your own imagination. Also, size and open world aren't necessarily related. Usually open worlds are larger than closed ones, but that need not be true -- Deus Ex:Mankind Divided is a small semi-open worldish game, with the main Prague map being tiny in comparison to say, Skyrim, but still featuring both sandboxing/emergent gameplay and some decent story quests, though the main quest is a bit of a botch. Point being, if a budget is limited, I would much rather see a game downsized but still open world, rather than made a closed world or left large and filled with junk content. We definitely differ on this though. I prefer my sandbox games to not have any developer-crafted story to them. I want to be able to essentially create my own story from absolutely scratch, build a huge amount of my own setting (with or without friends). Minecraft does this very well - albeit in a very block-by-block sort of way... but at least I can play it with a group of friends (one the Xbox... even with 3 other friends while we sit in my living room also shooting the breeze and drinking a beer). When I play SP RPG-stories, I'm looking to be told a story (albeit a somewhat flexible one). I'm interested in where the developer wants to take things... not just in where I want to take things. I want to experiment with different character builds... but always within whatever "imaginative" framework the develop has set for that game. If the developer wants to lead me through a mystery using a series of clues... I'm perfectly happy to follow those clues in a sequence... rather than see the whole mystery jumbled up by "open-world" free to roam syndrome so that it's not a mystery story anymore. If the developer wants to make some sort of story purpose to my character changing in certain ways over the course of a story, then I'm OK with following that development in the sequence the developer sets. I'm just not looking for these RPG games to do sandbox things for me. I prefer to play sandbox games for that.
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 27, 2017 22:18:10 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree with your main point: larger worlds need to have something fun to do in them. But what's "fun" need not have anything to do with the story. Consider Skyrim, which arguably is pretty weak with respect to story. It's still one of the most actively played and loved games on Steam. Why? Because a) it's highly moddable, so modders have been steadily creating new content to play, and it's a sandbox. You can ignore the main quest completely and go do whatever you want, including rolling 10,000 cheese wheels down a mountain, if that's what's fun for you. All that open space should be filled with emergent gameplay opportunities, e.g., sandboxing. Let me build my own castle and go make war on my neighbor. Let me wander the world as an itinerant blacksmith, mining ore and making gear to earn the 10,000 gold that I set as my own victory condition. Let me kill every NPC in existence, with extra points if the kill is environmental, like I bump them off a cliff. Play is limited only by the reasonably realistic rules of the simulation and your own imagination. Also, size and open world aren't necessarily related. Usually open worlds are larger than closed ones, but that need not be true -- Deus Ex:Mankind Divided is a small semi-open worldish game, with the main Prague map being tiny in comparison to say, Skyrim, but still featuring both sandboxing/emergent gameplay and some decent story quests, though the main quest is a bit of a botch. Point being, if a budget is limited, I would much rather see a game downsized but still open world, rather than made a closed world or left large and filled with junk content. We definitely differ on this though. I prefer my sandbox games to not have any developer-crafted story to them. I want to be able to essentially create my own story from absolutely scratch, build a huge amount of my own setting (with or without friends). Minecraft does this very well - albeit in a very block-by-block sort of way... but at least I can play it with a group of friends (one the Xbox... even with 3 other friends while we sit in my living room also shooting the breeze and drinking a beer). When I play SP RPG-stories, I'm looking to be told a story (albeit a somewhat flexible one). I'm interested in where the developer wants to take things... not just in where I want to take things. I want to experiment with different character builds... but always within whatever "imaginative" framework the develop has set for that game. If the developer wants to lead me through a mystery using a series of clues... I'm perfectly happy to follow those clues in a sequence... rather than see the whole mystery jumbled up by "open-world" free to roam syndrome so that it's not a mystery story anymore. If the developer wants to make some sort of story purpose to my character changing in certain ways over the course of a story, then I'm OK with following that development in the sequence the developer sets. I'm just not looking for these RPG games to do sandbox things for me. I prefer to play sandbox games for that. See, I agree with this. I hate it when I sit down to play a game that is historically known for story telling, only to find out that they've curbed the story to enhance gameplay. I could list all of the games that I've played over the past few years since skyrim's release that have tried to mimic the format, but that's more effort than I want to exert. I think what's really screwing things up are games like Skyrim and Fallout. Because developers see how well those games sold and say, "I want a piece of that pie." And gamers don't care that Skyrim and Fallout have incredibly bland narratives, so why should developers care? It's not that they don't KNOW how to write anymore or that they don't care, it's that we, as gamers, have shown them that mediocre storytelling is okay, but then, again, as the tech for game development improves, it becomes more and more obvious that they aren't really trying to write anything great, but the effort seems to be going into the visuals and technical.
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Post by Guts on Jul 27, 2017 22:57:28 GMT
I'm just scratching my head over what halo has to do with anything The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Chris Schlerf was a massive Halo fanboy. Truth be told I was skeptical of Bioware hiring him as lead writer as not a lot of Halo fans were happy with Halo 4 plus he hasn't had much writing experience outside of said game. That being said, I found the Archon more interesting than the didact but that's not saying much.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 28, 2017 1:14:30 GMT
Chris was on at some point but then he left the project and they got a new lead writer. Much like with a lot of the development team.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 28, 2017 1:39:44 GMT
The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Chris Schlerf was a massive Halo fanboy. Truth be told I was skeptical of Bioware hiring him as lead writer as not a lot of Halo fans were happy with Halo 4 plus he hasn't had much writing experience outside of said game. That being said, I found the Archon more interesting than the didact but that's not saying much. Diadact good Archon better. *Drack said coyly.* 😇
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Post by kino on Jul 28, 2017 2:20:10 GMT
Hey, if nothing else, OP, at least we now know that EA agrees with you.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 28, 2017 2:38:46 GMT
Also, you can actually explore in Skyrim. You go into a random cave you could be in there 15-20 minutes exploring, solving puzzles, and then you may end up with something that starts a quest that sends you somewhere else. In ME:A, there's pretty much nothing aside from the location marked on the map. You spend a lot of time just driving from symbol to symbol, but there really wasn't much to discover. More precisely, there isn't much to discover that isn't part of an explicit major quest line. There's plenty to discover on Havarl if you're doing A Dying Planet. I'm not certain you can even get into those places if you're not.
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Post by Guts on Jul 28, 2017 3:32:02 GMT
Chris was on at some point but then he left the project and they got a new lead writer. Much like with a lot of the development team. I remember looking at that, thinking back to how Dragon Age 2 was hated by a lot of fans and how Brent Knowles leaving may have contributed to this. I was concerned that the same would happen with Andromeda.
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Post by kino on Jul 28, 2017 3:46:19 GMT
Chris was on at some point but then he left the project and they got a new lead writer. Much like with a lot of the development team. I remember looking at that, thinking back to how Dragon Age 2 was hated by a lot of fans and how Brent Knowles leaving may have contributed to this. I was concerned that the same would happen with Andromeda. It was, and is, a legitimate concern. Having the lead writer leave a project, for whatever reason, can seriously derail something like a movie or game.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 28, 2017 3:57:47 GMT
I thought DG was the lead writer on DA since the beginning? (Though now its Weekes)
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 28, 2017 5:05:18 GMT
Seems to be some confusion: Knowles was a designer, not a writer. Though...a foggy memory wants to say that Gaider took over for someone else in the middle of producing DAO...but that could be a memory of the ME:2 writer's departure...it's hard to keep track.
Oh, no, I got it. It was the lead designer that changed. Knowles quit and Laidlaw took over...
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jul 28, 2017 6:12:19 GMT
A good writer can use technical limitations to frame a narrative, but a true artist can blend the world to frame the narrative. I don't think the narratives are "suffering" because of advanced technology; I think the narratives have always been of the same quality, but technology makes the flaws more and more obvious. I couldn't agree more. If there is a flaw, it's not in the size of the world, it's in writers fighting against the world instead of adapting to it. So, if the belief is that a Bioware-style story can't work in an open world, all that is saying is that Bioware writers have yet to learn how to write stories for an open world. And since other devs have successfully written good stories in open worlds, albeit not Bioware-style, there is at least some reason to believe that it can be done. It's more about how they can create a word that doesn't feel static and barely alive. Part of that can be writing to flesh out these zones, but also design, like the NPC AI, weather, ecosystem and open hubs where everyone is basically doing their own thing, even ambient music helps a lot. That's just a few. They failed with Inquisition and Andromeda. But here's hoping Edmonton can pull it off next time.
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Post by Guts on Jul 28, 2017 7:18:55 GMT
I couldn't agree more. If there is a flaw, it's not in the size of the world, it's in writers fighting against the world instead of adapting to it. So, if the belief is that a Bioware-style story can't work in an open world, all that is saying is that Bioware writers have yet to learn how to write stories for an open world. And since other devs have successfully written good stories in open worlds, albeit not Bioware-style, there is at least some reason to believe that it can be done. It's more about how they can create a word that doesn't feel static and barely alive. Part of that can be writing to flesh out these zones, but also design, like the NPC AI, weather, ecosystem and open hubs where everyone is basically doing their own thing, even ambient music helps a lot. That's just a few. They failed with Inquisition and Andromeda. But here's hoping Edmonton can pull it off next time. Dark Souls 2 had that issue. Partly the reason I really disliked that game. But anyways, time for me to get back on topic, I partially disagree, but that is mainly in regards to the crew on the tempest. World building was definitely a big downside of ME:A. It'd be nice if, the more you progressed throughout the story, the more your outposts would expand. Ambient music? I thought there were only, like, one or two tracks that I liked, the romance ambient being one, probably my favorite romance ost I've heard in the entire series, other than that, there wasn't much music playing at all. Stuff like the combat music in Andromeda overall felt forgettable and generic. I thought something like the combat music from Therum was soooooo much better, even if it was missing from the OST.
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Post by Guts on Jul 28, 2017 7:25:29 GMT
I never said anything about outright disliking the character, it's just I found the particular bit of dialogue to be somewhat embarrassing. Another one was Liam's "Shot that guy in the face" comment very early on. Then again, the first hour was probably the most awkward one, it was slow like ME1's first hour, but it was also awkward, afterwards it starts feeling like ME1 but with more open world elements. Come on now... is Liam's off-handed comment during a battle really any more awkward than Tali's "There's nothing faster than Chatika von Pas." followed by "Go for the optics, Chatika, go for the optics." or how about Jacob's "Gravity's one mean mother, huh?" or Miranda running around saying 'Night, night." Or how about this one: Zaeed asking Grunt during Mordin's recruitment mission "Is there any smell that doesn't make you hungry?" My point is that there have been awkward lines in all the Mass Effect games that Bioware have never gone back in and re-recorded. I really found the first hour of ME:A no more awkward for dialogue than the first hour of ME2... with a Shepard who has allegedly been in a come for two years starting things off by saying "This pistol doesn't have a thermal clip." I personally found that comment from Liam to be rather cringeworthy. (Thankfully it only happens once) Now that you mention the off-hand comments from previous ME games. Yeah some of those are kinda awkward. I really liked the speedbump comment by Ryder though. (Side note: Does Chatika really have a weak bladder?)
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Post by Arcian on Jul 28, 2017 8:24:48 GMT
The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Chris Schlerf was a massive Halo fanboy. Truth be told I was skeptical of Bioware hiring him as lead writer as not a lot of Halo fans were happy with Halo 4 plus he hasn't had much writing experience outside of said game. That being said, I found the Archon more interesting than the didact but that's not saying much. People's problem with Halo 4 was that the MP was worse than 1-3's and that the main story dared to depict Master Chief as anything but a mindless killing machine. I personally liked 4's campaign, not as much as CE or 2, but way more than 3. The Didact was only an interesting character if you read the tie-in novels by Greg Bear, otherwise he comes across as having an unexplained chip on his shoulder for humanity. That's ultimately a fault of the game. Tie in novels should not be necessary to explain the motives of the game's villains. It's honestly the same problem the ME Revelation book created in regards to Saren.
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May 2017
gatsu66
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Guts on Jul 28, 2017 9:47:05 GMT
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Chris Schlerf was a massive Halo fanboy. Truth be told I was skeptical of Bioware hiring him as lead writer as not a lot of Halo fans were happy with Halo 4 plus he hasn't had much writing experience outside of said game. That being said, I found the Archon more interesting than the didact but that's not saying much. People's problem with Halo 4 was that the MP was worse than 1-3's and that the main story dared to depict Master Chief as anything but a mindless killing machine. I personally liked 4's campaign, not as much as CE or 2, but way more than 3. The Didact was only an interesting character if you read the tie-in novels by Greg Bear, otherwise he comes across as having an unexplained chip on his shoulder for humanity. That's ultimately a fault of the game. Tie in novels should not be necessary to explain the motives of the game's villains. It's honestly the same problem the ME Revelation book created in regards to Saren. I never played any of Halo's multiplayer, I personally didn't mind Halo 4's story either, Halo 5 on the other hand.... I liked halo 5's gameplay but the story sucked. Oh yeah, forgot about the novels by Greg Bear, yeah that's kinda the same problem Liara had, is that it relies on outside sources to fill in the blanks, taking the comics into account I personally despised Liara's character development, not sure how many people do. The archon got only a little bit to explain his motives but even then, the Archon just comes across like a moustache twirling Kett supremacist. Why couldn't we get a Kett Villain in a similar vein to Zodd from Berserk?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 11:16:52 GMT
I couldn't agree more. If there is a flaw, it's not in the size of the world, it's in writers fighting against the world instead of adapting to it. So, if the belief is that a Bioware-style story can't work in an open world, all that is saying is that Bioware writers have yet to learn how to write stories for an open world. And since other devs have successfully written good stories in open worlds, albeit not Bioware-style, there is at least some reason to believe that it can be done. It's more about how they can create a word that doesn't feel static and barely alive. Part of that can be writing to flesh out these zones, but also design, like the NPC AI, weather, ecosystem and open hubs where everyone is basically doing their own thing, even ambient music helps a lot. That's just a few. They failed with Inquisition and Andromeda. But here's hoping Edmonton can pull it off next time. I agree. Much of the time, the stance and movements of the NPC''s in ME:A just don't seem natural. More of than not, they are just standing someplace and then when activated for a conversation, will just "pulse" (like heavy breathing). If the do move around, it's usually limited to some sort of nonsensical pacing (Majordome Bell-Scott) or mindlessly waving a datapad about. If they could get all that just to feel a bit more natural, it would improve things immeasurably. There were a few brief moments where the movements did seem more natural (e.g. when Raj was working on the panel and he jumped when it exploded), but once the conversation started, we we back to the same old "pulsing" motion. There were bits of weather in Andromeda... it was often raining on Havarl, it was raining with some lightning during Drack's loyalty mission, and there was a breeze evident on Elaaden; but to be effective, they are really going to have to intensify it. The hazard mechanic seems to be bugged - most noticeably on Voeld, but it's also somewhat irratic on Eos. I actually found that the little stories underlying many of the side quests fit quite well together and would at times weave a larger back story - The little quests on EOS are like this... Naming the Dead, It Doesn't Add Up, Waking up to the Future, Ghost of a Promise, The Secret Project, and finding Clancy's and then "PeeBee's camps weave together a compelling narrative about what caused Sites 1 and 2 to fail. However, the open world can work against this narrative since to really be impactful, most of it should be done prior to to talking to Bradley the first time. I also found that a lot of the nuances in the narrative are actually buried in some of the squad banter in the nomad... which is very hit and miss (depends on which 2 squad mates you happen to have with you when driving over particular "trigger" areas of the map and how quickly you're driving since much of the banter can get cut off by merely going through an area too fast or when a battle starts). They do need to work out a better presentation for all of this.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 28, 2017 17:59:35 GMT
We definitely differ on this though. I prefer my sandbox games to not have any developer-crafted story to them. I want to be able to essentially create my own story from absolutely scratch, build a huge amount of my own setting (with or without friends). Minecraft does this very well - albeit in a very block-by-block sort of way... but at least I can play it with a group of friends (one the Xbox... even with 3 other friends while we sit in my living room also shooting the breeze and drinking a beer). When I play SP RPG-stories, I'm looking to be told a story (albeit a somewhat flexible one). I'm interested in where the developer wants to take things... not just in where I want to take things. I want to experiment with different character builds... but always within whatever "imaginative" framework the develop has set for that game. If the developer wants to lead me through a mystery using a series of clues... I'm perfectly happy to follow those clues in a sequence... rather than see the whole mystery jumbled up by "open-world" free to roam syndrome so that it's not a mystery story anymore. If the developer wants to make some sort of story purpose to my character changing in certain ways over the course of a story, then I'm OK with following that development in the sequence the developer sets. I'm just not looking for these RPG games to do sandbox things for me. I prefer to play sandbox games for that. I hate it when I sit down to play a game that is historically known for story telling, only to find out that they've curbed the story to enhance gameplay. If you mean devs are chasing the market and making compromises to increase the appeal to a broader base of players, I'm with you. I don't think it's specifically about curbing story, since great story driven games, like HZD and Nier:Automata, have had outstanding commercial success, and recently. The best story driven games are the ones that *use* gameplay to tell the story. Like Nier:Automata. I agree that Fallout 4 put the cart before the horse. It sure seems like they over invested in sand boxing, while underinvesting in making the SP campaign fun. The story isn't bad, but also isn't great either. Par for the course for Bethesda.
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jaegerbane
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 30, 2017 15:48:34 GMT
I'm just scratching my head over what halo has to do with anything The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. While I'd certainly concede that there's some overlap between Halo and Mass Effect, a core premise of the whole Mass Effect concept is basically investigating the unknown past, which kind of comes with the territory of ancient alien structures in a sci-fi setting. Similarly, the concept of a plot device that converts people into enemies is an insanely broad thing to ascribe to Halo - we had this kind of thing played straight with Indoctrination and Husks. I mean, the basic logic you've stated above has been repeated as broad plot in god-knows-how-many fictions, including the MET. Hell, if we remove the sci-fi specific elements you're not a million miles away from the Uncharted storyline.
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 30, 2017 16:34:23 GMT
The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. While I'd certainly concede that there's some overlap between Halo and Mass Effect, a core premise of the whole Mass Effect concept is basically investigating the unknown past, which kind of comes with the territory of ancient alien structures in a sci-fi setting. Similarly, the concept of a plot device that converts people into enemies is an insanely broad thing to ascribe to Halo - we had this kind of thing played straight with Indoctrination and Husks. I mean, the basic logic you've stated above has been repeated as broad plot in god-knows-how-many fictions, including the MET. Hell, if we remove the sci-fi specific elements you're not a million miles away from the Uncharted storyline. Honestly, I would argue that part of the problem with Andromeda was too little development given to the ancient aliens. They ended up being totally generic with very little to distinguish them from any other extinct ancient aliens. There's a mystery with the scourge and whatnot, but no answers.
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Post by unwanted on Jul 31, 2017 5:33:30 GMT
I know the op is upset at losing money over this game, but that does not mean he/she should stoop to broadcasting fake news. Awesome indeed, do you really expect the Bioware populace to follow suit and in such disillusionment?
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on Jul 31, 2017 9:08:40 GMT
The main plot of the game has more than a passing resemblance to the Halo trilogy, which is not that strange since Halo 4's lead writer Chris Schlerf was lead writer for Andromeda during a large part of the development. Basically, evil race of dogmatic aliens want to access ancient, artificial superstructures only capable of being accessed by humans and their AI constructs. Said ancient superstructures are defended by very advanced automated synthetic constructs displaying hostility towards both the evil dogmatic aliens and the humans. Should the evil dogmatic aliens succeed in accessing the ancient superstructures, it will be the doom of mankind in the galaxy. Exaltation serves a similar role to the flood spores in Halo 1-3 and the Promethean digitization laser in Halo 4, namely a plot device that turns affected allies into enemies and poses a direct existential threat to the protagonists. While I'd certainly concede that there's some overlap between Halo and Mass Effect, a core premise of the whole Mass Effect concept is basically investigating the unknown past, which kind of comes with the territory of ancient alien structures in a sci-fi setting. Similarly, the concept of a plot device that converts people into enemies is an insanely broad thing to ascribe to Halo - we had this kind of thing played straight with Indoctrination and Husks. I mean, the basic logic you've stated above has been repeated as broad plot in god-knows-how-many fictions, including the MET. Hell, if we remove the sci-fi specific elements you're not a million miles away from the Uncharted storyline. Yea and Halo is a kind of rip-off off Ringworld. While I'd certainly concede that there's some overlap between Halo and Mass Effect, a core premise of the whole Mass Effect concept is basically investigating the unknown past, which kind of comes with the territory of ancient alien structures in a sci-fi setting. Similarly, the concept of a plot device that converts people into enemies is an insanely broad thing to ascribe to Halo - we had this kind of thing played straight with Indoctrination and Husks. I mean, the basic logic you've stated above has been repeated as broad plot in god-knows-how-many fictions, including the MET. Hell, if we remove the sci-fi specific elements you're not a million miles away from the Uncharted storyline. Honestly, I would argue that part of the problem with Andromeda was too little development given to the ancient aliens. They ended up being totally generic with very little to distinguish them from any other extinct ancient aliens. There's a mystery with the scourge and whatnot, but no answers. The way I see it is better to get more depth and some answers in a sequel than all illusions dispelled in the first episode.
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