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Post by alanc9 on Jul 25, 2017 17:54:56 GMT
That's not a bad excuse. That's the reason. The reason is they couldn't be arsed to provide more. Or they ran out of time doing it. Everyone looking for a deeper meaning in the absence of new races is providing excuses for poor design choices. Which is, play it save by using the same old Milky Way races. Is that actually a "poor" design choice? There was plenty of whining pre-release about how ME:A wasn't really Mass Effect, or some such. Would a ME:A which didn't use the same old Milky Way races have gone over better, or worse? Of course, we can always talk about an ME:A with a fantasy budget where all the races get made, if you like. |
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 25, 2017 17:58:33 GMT
The only thing I am saying is that the argument "The game takes place in one cluster, so it wouldn't make sense to show more alien stuff" is not valid IMO because that is not a constraint that the devs were forced to adhere to. It was fully under their control, so if that had been the only constraint it would have been the easiest thing in the world to life by simply adapting the story to the concept the devs have for the game. Eh, I kind of agree and I don't. I mean, on the one hand, I agree that it wasn't outside Bioware's capability to invent a reason to be able to explore more than one cluster. It would have required a lot of explanation for it to make sense and that, in itself, may well have resulted in extra stuff needed that would have taken dev away from new species... but this is something Bioware are good at. On the other hand... ultimately this is the setting Bioware chose. If you're fundamentally disagreeing with that then I'm not sure where the logic ends and it becomes unreasonable... i mean, what goes too far? Why haven't any of the DA games explored Tevinter? Why are the DA games set then, and not centuries ahead when the species have invented cars and modern tech? Are they allowed to be called Dragon Age games when the Dragon Age ends? Realistically I would say that if the basic setting is your issue then no amount of alien would have made any difference. |
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 25, 2017 18:06:00 GMT
The only thing I am saying is that the argument "The game takes place in one cluster, so it wouldn't make sense to show more alien stuff" is not valid IMO because that is not a constraint that the devs were forced to adhere to. It was fully under their control, so if that had been the only constraint it would have been the easiest thing in the world to life by simply adapting the story to the concept the devs have for the game. Eh, I kind of agree and I don't. I mean, on the one hand, I agree that it wasn't outside Bioware's capability to invent a reason to be able to explore more than one cluster. It would have required a lot of explanation for it to make sense and that, in itself, may well have resulted in extra stuff needed that would have taken dev away from new species... but this is something Bioware are good at. On the other hand... ultimately this is the setting Bioware chose. If you're fundamentally disagreeing with that then I'm not sure where the logic ends and it becomes unreasonable... i mean, what goes too far? Why haven't any of the DA games explored Tevinter? Why are the DA games set then, and not centuries ahead when the species have invented cars and modern tech? Are they allowed to be called Dragon Age games when the Dragon Age ends? Realistically I would say that if the basic setting is your issue then no amount of alien would have made any difference. Without Mass Effect Relays going to more than one cluster in a single game is impossible without some type of hyperdrive or similar. Relays were basically the Mass Effect version of a hyperdrive. In order to go to the next cluster it could take months and might even require cryo. So for the next chapter they will have to come up with a reason why to do that. Second I agree that this is the design they wanted and to simply not like the design 100 aliens wouldn't make a difference. |
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 25, 2017 18:14:45 GMT
But it's not about the cluster, that's not the topic of the thread. If the thread were "should Andromeda have taken place in more than one cluster?", one might say "No because no relays" (although, with ODSY drive it should at least be no problem to go to neighbouring clusters but different point).
The question of the thread is "should Andromeda been a bit more alien?"
Now, you could say "yes" or "no", it's a matter of taste and I am perfectly fine with anyone saying "no because I feel it's fine as it is" or "no because if they tried to create more diverse assets, that would have cost them even more time and money they couldn't spend on other important things" (I'd even partly agree with that second one).
I just think saying "no because it takes place in one cluster" is a fairly weak argument to make here because that's not a real constraint when you start over with a new story in a new galaxy with a new game (see my first serious response in this matter where I came up with three points as to why it's not a constraint for the authors). This argument IMO only works the other way round, as in "we decided to make the game play in one cluster because we didn't want to include more aliens at this point" for example.
It's less about the game and more about a point of logic really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 18:23:13 GMT
But it's not about the cluster, that's not the topic of the thread. If the thread were "should Andromeda have taken place in more than one cluster?", one might say "No because no relays" (although, with ODSY drive it should at least be no problem to go to neighbouring clusters but different point). The question of the thread is "should Andromeda been a bit more alien?" Now, you could say "yes" or "no", it's a matter of taste and I am perfectly fine with anyone saying "no because I feel it's fine as it is" or "no because if they tried to create more diverse assets, that would have cost them even more time and money they couldn't spend on other important things" (I'd even partly agree with that second one). I just think saying "no because it takes place in one cluster" is a fairly weak argument to make here because that's not a real constraint when you start over with a new story in a new galaxy with a new game (see my first serious response in this matter where I came up with three points as to why it's not a constraint for the authors). This argument IMO only works the other way round, as in "we decided to make the game play in one cluster because we didn't want to include more aliens at this point" for example. In reality, the reason that there are the number of aliens in the story as there are is that the actual authors of the story felt that is what best suited the story they wanted to tell. People keep wanting to "force" them into tellling them the story they want to be told... usurping Bioware's "right of authorship" on the premise that "it's an RPG." They obvously wanted their story to focus on the angara and the "relationship" to the kett and to only hint near the end about the Jaardan. That's the way they constructed the story for Episode One. People are also failing to acknowledge that at least two species were "introduced" that we really don't know yet whether or not they are sentient. They are truly alien to us yet... the mantas and the yevara. Being "alien" is in essense about not knowing... so us not knowing whether or not a species is even sentient is about as alien as it gets. |
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Post by abaris on Jul 25, 2017 18:31:06 GMT
Is that actually a "poor" design choice? There was plenty of whining pre-release about how ME:A wasn't really Mass Effect, or some such. Would a ME:A which didn't use the same old Milky Way races have gone over better, or worse? Of course, we can always talk about an ME:A with a fantasy budget where all the races get made, if you like. That's another debate to have. I for one would have been more interested in new races than a rehash of the old ones. I always said that the setting didn't make the least bit of sense to me. Supposedly inhabitable planets already populated by Milky Way races, 14 months after they arrived in Helios. I'm not sure if they mentioned when the rebellion actually happened, but it happened at a later time. So, within less than 14 months, they populated the planets. Apart from Voeld, Aya and Hawarl. The Angarans were strong enough to not succumb to the Kett on Kadara but too weak to withstand Sloane and her merry men, who single handedly defeated the Kett, save for a small pocket you get to kill later on. This game made it very hard for me to suspend disbelief, and yes, I would say there are a lot of poor design choices involved. |
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 25, 2017 18:32:21 GMT
But it's not about the cluster, that's not the topic of the thread. If the thread were "should Andromeda have taken place in more than one cluster?", one might say "No because no relays" (although, with ODSY drive it should at least be no problem to go to neighbouring clusters but different point). The question of the thread is "should Andromeda been a bit more alien?" Well... it's either one or the other. You've already conceded that the expectation of having loads of aliens in a single cluster is unrealistic, so logically suggesting that more aliens would be better is effectively making it about expanding the scope to more clusters. I guess you have a little wiggle room with taking a leaf out of Defiance's book and have loads of aliens flying around on colony ships but that kind of schtick has already been done by the AI itself, in order to make the story happen. It's worth remembering that the ODSY didn't actually break the lore. It doesn't somehow make Mass Relays obsolete - they still travel at 'conventional' FTL speeds, the only difference is that they don't have to find a discharge site. Outside of the use cases of crossing Dark Space, and reducing the risk of being stranded, they won't get you to a new cluster any faster than a normal FTL engine would. |
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 25, 2017 18:34:24 GMT
But it's not about the cluster, that's not the topic of the thread. If the thread were "should Andromeda have taken place in more than one cluster?", one might say "No because no relays" (although, with ODSY drive it should at least be no problem to go to neighbouring clusters but different point). The question of the thread is "should Andromeda been a bit more alien?" Now, you could say "yes" or "no", it's a matter of taste and I am perfectly fine with anyone saying "no because I feel it's fine as it is" or "no because if they tried to create more diverse assets, that would have cost them even more time and money they couldn't spend on other important things" (I'd even partly agree with that second one). I just think saying "no because it takes place in one cluster" is a fairly weak argument to make here because that's not a real constraint when you start over with a new story in a new galaxy with a new game (see my first serious response in this matter where I came up with three points as to why it's not a constraint for the authors). This argument IMO only works the other way round, as in "we decided to make the game play in one cluster because we didn't want to include more aliens at this point" for example. In reality, the reason that there are the number of aliens in the story as there are is that the actual authors of the story felt that is what best suited the story they wanted to tell. People keep wanting to "force" them into tellling them the story they want to be told... usurping Bioware's "right of authorship" on the premise that "it's an RPG." They obvously wanted their story to focus on the angara and the "relationship" to the kett and to only hint near the end about the Jaardan. That's the way they constructed the story for Episode One. People are also failing to acknowledge that at least two species were "introduced" that we really don't know yet whether or not they are sentient. They are truly alien to us yet... the mantas and the yevara. Being "alien" is in essense about not knowing... so us not knowing whether or not a species is even sentient is about as alien as it gets. Not to mention the Jaardan and the Remnant. As to your first point that really is getting on my nerves. This isn't D&D people! (thank the Goddess) This is a game with a crafted story by an author. The RPG portion is how you play that simple. In games you will never get a story tailored to you ever. |
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Post by sil on Jul 25, 2017 18:35:27 GMT
There were more than 2 alien species in the Deception novel. And I think we can all agree, that was a cluster-fuck.  ... Sorry, had to be done. But how many are in any given cluster? 2 at most. The Turian cluster (Turian and Volus) and the Asari cluster (Asari and Elcor). Unless someone knows something different, all other clusters have only 1 sentient species at most. The turian, volus, asari and elcor all originate in different clusters, they may overlap in territory but that happens after thousands of years of a unified galactic civilisation. There are some clusters that have dead garden worlds that once had civilisations, some of which add up to more than 2 I believe. Also, bear in mind, we never saw all the races that are involved in Citadel Space (or even heard their names, but the lore suggests more races than we have seen), so we've no idea if some of those shared territory with other species. Species such as the Yahg, Kirik, Raloi and Virtual Aliens could all have had their homeworlds inside clusters that are the homes of other sapient species, but we know nothing of their location other than speculation that the Raloi are from asari space and the Virtual Aliens definitely drifted into salarian space. |
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 25, 2017 18:39:24 GMT
But it's not about the cluster, that's not the topic of the thread. If the thread were "should Andromeda have taken place in more than one cluster?", one might say "No because no relays" (although, with ODSY drive it should at least be no problem to go to neighbouring clusters but different point). The question of the thread is "should Andromeda been a bit more alien?" Now, you could say "yes" or "no", it's a matter of taste and I am perfectly fine with anyone saying "no because I feel it's fine as it is" or "no because if they tried to create more diverse assets, that would have cost them even more time and money they couldn't spend on other important things" (I'd even partly agree with that second one). I just think saying "no because it takes place in one cluster" is a fairly weak argument to make here because that's not a real constraint when you start over with a new story in a new galaxy with a new game (see my first serious response in this matter where I came up with three points as to why it's not a constraint for the authors). This argument IMO only works the other way round, as in "we decided to make the game play in one cluster because we didn't want to include more aliens at this point" for example. In reality, the reason that there are the number of aliens in the story as there are is that the actual authors of the story felt that is what best suited the story they wanted to tell. People keep wanting to "force" them into tellling them the story they want to be told... usurping Bioware's "right of authorship" on the premise that "it's an RPG." They obvously wanted their story to focus on the angara and the "relationship" to the kett and to only hint near the end about the Jaardan. That's the way they constructed the story for Episode One. See? Now that's a good argument to make. I may not necessarily like that they went this way or that that was their priority but that makes sense and I get it. |
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 25, 2017 18:48:16 GMT
See? Now that's a good argument to make. I may not necessarily like that they went this way or that that was their priority but that makes sense and I get it. Perhaps I misunderstood things but I thought that was the argument being disagreed with. |
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 25, 2017 19:18:39 GMT
See? Now that's a good argument to make. I may not necessarily like that they went this way or that that was their priority but that makes sense and I get it. Perhaps I misunderstood things but I thought that was the argument being disagreed with. Well, no. UpUp's argument for there not being more aliens in the story is based on a design decision. He says, that he thinks that the devs wanted to concentrate on the few species they introduced, rather then introduce a lot more different species and thus divide attention. That's something that could very well be true and it would be a reasonable design choice. There aren't more alien elements in the story because the devs consciously wanted to focus on the ones that were there. As I said, It may not be the way I'd have done it but I agree that it's the devs game and their call. Also, THEN going ahead and saying "ok, we'll also make this play out in one cluster" makes perfect sense. The only thing I was not getting was the whole "we have few aliens because we are in one cluster" argument because to me it's somewhat circular: "we decided to have few aliens because we decided to make the game play in one cluster because we decided to have few aliens because..." That was all in their hands and there is no reason outside of that circle to do it this way. But UpUp's proposed outside reason (just like the technical and budged constraints I brought up earlier myself) works as a starting point. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before and I hope I am now, again, it's not that I can't see good reasons for keeping the number of alien elements constrained, just the "one cluster" argument doesn't work on its own because it is also just part of the story/the setup. That's all. |
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 25, 2017 19:27:51 GMT
Is that actually a "poor" design choice? There was plenty of whining pre-release about how ME:A wasn't really Mass Effect, or some such. Would a ME:A which didn't use the same old Milky Way races have gone over better, or worse? Of course, we can always talk about an ME:A with a fantasy budget where all the races get made, if you like. That's another debate to have. I for one would have been more interested in new races than a rehash of the old ones. I always said that the setting didn't make the least bit of sense to me. Supposedly inhabitable planets already populated by Milky Way races, 14 months after they arrived in Helios. I'm not sure if they mentioned when the rebellion actually happened, but it happened at a later time. So, within less than 14 months, they populated the planets. Apart from Voeld, Aya and Hawarl. The Angarans were strong enough to not succumb to the Kett on Kadara but too weak to withstand Sloane and her merry men, who single handedly defeated the Kett, save for a small pocket you get to kill later on. This game made it very hard for me to suspend disbelief, and yes, I would say there are a lot of poor design choices involved. You're getting a bit away from the topic here. Do you really think that a version of ME with, say, no krogan and no turians, but with two more major Andromeda races, would have gone over well,all other things being equal? I mean, sure, we can talk about a fantasy alternat version of ME:A with no other problems and a different race mix, but that's not a very useful way to think about the race mix decision. |
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 25, 2017 20:00:44 GMT
That's another debate to have. I for one would have been more interested in new races than a rehash of the old ones. I always said that the setting didn't make the least bit of sense to me. Supposedly inhabitable planets already populated by Milky Way races, 14 months after they arrived in Helios. I'm not sure if they mentioned when the rebellion actually happened, but it happened at a later time. So, within less than 14 months, they populated the planets. Apart from Voeld, Aya and Hawarl. The Angarans were strong enough to not succumb to the Kett on Kadara but too weak to withstand Sloane and her merry men, who single handedly defeated the Kett, save for a small pocket you get to kill later on. This game made it very hard for me to suspend disbelief, and yes, I would say there are a lot of poor design choices involved. You're getting a bit away from the topic here. Do you really think that a version of ME with, say, no krogan and no turians, but with two more major Andromeda races, would have gone over well,all other things being equal? I mean, sure, we can talk about a fantasy alternat version of ME:A with no other problems and a different race mix, but that's not a very useful way to think about the race mix decision. Agreed. Once they found out about the Arks, fans DEMANDED certain races make the journey. There's just no way they couldn't take the council races and Krogan. Fans would have rioted (more). So you get a bunch of MW aliens and some new Helius aliens with the understanding more will come. It's all really just personal taste at that point. I mean, since LORE and LOGIC are apparently barriers lazy artists hide behind. |
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Post by abaris on Jul 25, 2017 20:21:03 GMT
You're getting a bit away from the topic here. Do you really think that a version of ME with, say, no krogan and no turians, but with two more major Andromeda races, would have gone over well,all other things being equal? I mean, sure, we can talk about a fantasy alternat version of ME:A with no other problems and a different race mix, but that's not a very useful way to think about the race mix decision. I don't know, but the truth is, a solid proportion of the game is centered around the old Milky Way and it's races. Apart from Vault dwelling there's mainly save the Turians, Asari, Salarians. They already had these races and only needed to adapt them for the new engine. Truth is, this is still a Milky Way game that tries to make us believe it's something new when in truth the only reason for moving away from MW is not having to deal with the endings of ME3. That would have been impossible. And I don't feel as if I'm getting away from the topic. The question asked is should Andromeda been a bit more alien? To which I replied that the uninhabitable planets have already been populated be MW species. So, yes, it should have been more alien, in not having MW species on any wayward planet, but indigenous ones. Hell, they even have the same assortment of critters on every planet, regardless of their climate and distance. Not even they are original. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 20:21:46 GMT
You're getting a bit away from the topic here. Do you really think that a version of ME with, say, no krogan and no turians, but with two more major Andromeda races, would have gone over well,all other things being equal? I mean, sure, we can talk about a fantasy alternat version of ME:A with no other problems and a different race mix, but that's not a very useful way to think about the race mix decision. Agreed. Once they found out about the Arks, fans DEMANDED certain races make the journey. There's just no way they couldn't take the council races and Krogan. Fans would have rioted (more). So you get a bunch of MW aliens and some new Helius aliens with the understanding more will come. It's all really just personal taste at that point. I mean, since LORE and LOGIC are apparently barriers lazy artists hide behind. I don't think making a decision to focus the story on portraying a culture (the angara) in more depth and focusing that depth on a relationship to the enemies of that culture (the kett) is a "lazy" design decision. It's a perfectly valid decision for an author to make because that author is the only one who really has any idea where they may want to take their story in subsequent installments. They are the only ones who can really say with absolutely certainty what underlying themes are driving what they are writing about. Certainly, not everyone will like the decisions Bioware make. I don't think Bioware expects that... but I don't accept the notion that any decision Bioware makes that is not instantly loved by the masses is due to their being "lazy." IMO, lazy would have been just letting the whole Mass Effect IP die out after ME3. |
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 25, 2017 20:32:15 GMT
Agreed. Once they found out about the Arks, fans DEMANDED certain races make the journey. There's just no way they couldn't take the council races and Krogan. Fans would have rioted (more). So you get a bunch of MW aliens and some new Helius aliens with the understanding more will come. It's all really just personal taste at that point. I mean, since LORE and LOGIC are apparently barriers lazy artists hide behind. I don't think making a decision to focus the story on portraying a culture (the angara) in more depth and focusing that depth on a relationship to the enemies of that culture (the kett) is a "lazy" design decision. It's a perfectly valid decision for an author to make because that author is the only one who really has any idea where they may want to take their story in subsequent installments. They are the only ones who can really say with absolutely certainty what underlying themes are driving what they are writing about. Certainly, not everyone will like the decisions Bioware make. I don't think Bioware expects that... but I don't accept the notion that any decision Bioware makes that is not instantly loved by the masses is due to their being "lazy." IMO, lazy would have been just letting the whole Mass Effect IP die out after ME3. Assuredly. I was not calling them lazy. Others had been arguing that the setting and lore were there to allow the writers to be lazy. I disagree and think that the logic of the situation means that the narrative presented to us makes the most sense, but others have a hard time with that. |
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 25, 2017 21:31:00 GMT
You're getting a bit away from the topic here. Do you really think that a version of ME with, say, no krogan and no turians, but with two more major Andromeda races, would have gone over well,all other things being equal? I mean, sure, we can talk about a fantasy alternat version of ME:A with no other problems and a different race mix, but that's not a very useful way to think about the race mix decision. I don't know, but the truth is, a solid proportion of the game is centered around the old Milky Way and it's races. Apart from Vault dwelling there's mainly save the Turians, Asari, Salarians. They already had these races and only needed to adapt them for the new engine. Truth is, this is still a Milky Way game that tries to make us believe it's something new when in truth the only reason for moving away from MW is not having to deal with the endings of ME3. That would have been impossible. And I don't feel as if I'm getting away from the topic. The question asked is should Andromeda been a bit more alien? To which I replied that the uninhabitable planets have already been populated be MW species. So, yes, it should have been more alien, in not having MW species on any wayward planet, but indigenous ones. Hell, they even have the same assortment of critters on every planet, regardless of their climate and distance. Not even they are original. Tbh I'm not really sure what you expected to happen here, or what could have been done differently. Clearly, MW species were going to be a part of this title, there isn't realistically any way around that regardless of where the game is set. Putting aside storyline etc, any mission that would realistically move the setting to Andromeda would have to have enough species of each to form a viable population. As for 'the only reason moving away from MW is not having to deal with ME3 endings....' you say that like it's a minor thing. Tbh I can't think of any MW-based narrative that could really match the scale and ramifications of the Reaper War and failure to do so would very much paint any new game as bit of a secondary title. The sheer epic scale of the trilogy kind of wrote it's own limit by the simple fact that its resolution would be the most important galactic event in almost its entire history. Colonising an entirely new galaxy though - that can realistically compete, as it's a total blank canvas. Whether MEA lived up to it's setting is another argument, but I'm afraid I don't see the logic as to why lots of MW species in Andromeda automatically equals a bad thing. I mean, what would have been preferable? That you only see MW species on the Nexus? Why would that be better? The thing about the critters is an issue though, I agree with that. I assumed it was something to do with the fact that Heleus is essentially revealed to be one giant experiment, but given six worlds, four of which are desert-like and one doesn't even have an atmosphere, I think it would have been reasonable to expect a separate ecosystem on each. |
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Post by abaris on Jul 25, 2017 21:37:13 GMT
As for 'the only reason moving away from MW is not having to deal with ME3 endings....' you say that like it's a minor thing. No, I said it would have been impossible to deal with the endings. But it's still the major if not the only reason why they moved away from it. That's what I said. |
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 25, 2017 21:45:38 GMT
But it's not about the cluster, that's not the topic of the thread. If the thread were "should Andromeda have taken place in more than one cluster?", one might say "No because no relays" (although, with ODSY drive it should at least be no problem to go to neighbouring clusters but different point). The question of the thread is "should Andromeda been a bit more alien?" Now, you could say "yes" or "no", it's a matter of taste and I am perfectly fine with anyone saying "no because I feel it's fine as it is" or "no because if they tried to create more diverse assets, that would have cost them even more time and money they couldn't spend on other important things" (I'd even partly agree with that second one). I just think saying "no because it takes place in one cluster" is a fairly weak argument to make here because that's not a real constraint when you start over with a new story in a new galaxy with a new game (see my first serious response in this matter where I came up with three points as to why it's not a constraint for the authors). This argument IMO only works the other way round, as in "we decided to make the game play in one cluster because we didn't want to include more aliens at this point" for example. In reality, the reason that there are the number of aliens in the story as there are is that the actual authors of the story felt that is what best suited the story they wanted to tell. People keep wanting to "force" them into tellling them the story they want to be told... usurping Bioware's "right of authorship" on the premise that "it's an RPG." They obvously wanted their story to focus on the angara and the "relationship" to the kett and to only hint near the end about the Jaardan. That's the way they constructed the story for Episode One. People are also failing to acknowledge that at least two species were "introduced" that we really don't know yet whether or not they are sentient. They are truly alien to us yet... the mantas and the yevara. Being "alien" is in essense about not knowing... so us not knowing whether or not a species is even sentient is about as alien as it gets. I would love to see one of yevara. |
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 26, 2017 1:03:00 GMT
You're getting a bit away from the topic here. Do you really think that a version of ME with, say, no krogan and no turians, but with two more major Andromeda races, would have gone over well,all other things being equal? I mean, sure, we can talk about a fantasy alternat version of ME:A with no other problems and a different race mix, but that's not a very useful way to think about the race mix decision. I don't know, but the truth is, a solid proportion of the game is centered around the old Milky Way and it's races. Apart from Vault dwelling there's mainly save the Turians, Asari, Salarians. They already had these races and only needed to adapt them for the new engine. Truth is, this is still a Milky Way game that tries to make us believe it's something new when in truth the only reason for moving away from MW is not having to deal with the endings of ME3. That would have been impossible. But, again, the "adapting" is the expensive part. Assets aren't portable between the two engines, so all you've got is the conceptual art. Although conceivably a new race might be a little cheaper because you wouldn't have to worry about matching any earlier version, so whatever came out of the artists could just be slapped into the game whether it matched the conceptual art or not. And yes, it's a Milky Way game. Would cutting MW content in favor of Andromeda content have been an improvement is the substance of the question. I think people wanted the MW races back and woukd have been mad if they didn't get them. But, again, with the existing budget and racial distribution you're just swapping in angara for MW species; there's nobody else to use. So what are you proposing, exactly? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 3:30:57 GMT
I touched on this way back on the first page of this thread, but I'll go into a bit more detail.
See, there isn't a Citadel in the Heleus Cluster. No central government, no place where multiple alien species gather and learn about and from one another, set up trade agreements, conduct commerce, enjoy cultural and technological exchanges, etc. The Nexus may become that at some point, but for the duration of MEA, it appears to mostly serve as the Ai's headquarters and sort of a mini-Citadel for the Milkies, and a place to introduce themselves to new species as they are encountered.
Think what it might have been like for the asari to have discovered and started populating the Citadel, and then meeting the salarians for the first time. Those two species became acquainted, and then met another... and another... etc. Instead of having a whole buncha species already present and known, MEA takes us through the experience of getting to know them, their leaders, their factions, their culture and history - not through codex entries or chatting with an Avina node, but via direct experience.
Remember, too, that precious little was known about the Collectors prior to ME2. And it wasn't until an ME3 DLC that we knew much about the reapers aside from their genocidal tendencies. It's true that we've been introduced to only a few new species in Andromeda, but we know much more about the kett at this point than we knew about the reapers for most of the trilogy. During the course of the trilogy, we found that a lot of what was believed about the protheans turned out to be false - and we have this new mystery species in the jaardan.
So - I think they've laid a foundation with a lot of exciting possibilities, and I enjoyed going through the process of first contact and discovery.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 26, 2017 11:26:12 GMT
As for 'the only reason moving away from MW is not having to deal with ME3 endings....' you say that like it's a minor thing. No, I said it would have been impossible to deal with the endings. But it's still the major if not the only reason why they moved away from it. I probably didn't word the question well, I meant to say that the impression you were giving was that there was some significance attached to it being the 'only' reason. I was simply saying that it's a pretty massive reason in of itself and that I'm not sure further reasons are needed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 11:49:52 GMT
I touched on this way back on the first page of this thread, but I'll go into a bit more detail. See, there isn't a Citadel in the Heleus Cluster. No central government, no place where multiple alien species gather and learn about and from one another, set up trade agreements, conduct commerce, enjoy cultural and technological exchanges, etc. The Nexus may become that at some point, but for the duration of MEA, it appears to mostly serve as the Ai's headquarters and sort of a mini-Citadel for the Milkies, and a place to introduce themselves to new species as they are encountered. Think what it might have been like for the asari to have discovered and started populating the Citadel, and then meeting the salarians for the first time. Those two species became acquainted, and then met another... and another... etc. Instead of having a whole buncha species already present and known, MEA takes us through the experience of getting to know them, their leaders, their factions, their culture and history - not through codex entries or chatting with an Avina node, but via direct experience.Remember, too, that precious little was known about the Collectors prior to ME2. And it wasn't until an ME3 DLC that we knew much about the reapers aside from their genocidal tendencies. It's true that we've been introduced to only a few new species in Andromeda, but we know much more about the kett at this point than we knew about the reapers for most of the trilogy. During the course of the trilogy, we found that a lot of what was believed about the protheans turned out to be false - and we have this new mystery species in the jaardan. So - I think they've laid a foundation with a lot of exciting possibilities, and I enjoyed going through the process of first contact and discovery. Good point. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Jul 26, 2017 14:19:25 GMT
I can see the reasoning for wanting to limit the amount of aliens we encounter, especially since we have to account for all the Milky Way races as well. But did the ones we get all have to be so human-like? I remember watching the GameInformer interview before Andromeda dropped, and how the Khet were mentioned as being designed with human-like faces so as to garner empathy and at how the Angara were going to be that touch the normal in a new galaxy, and I'm sitting there thinking: "Why?"
It might not be lazy per say, but BioWare certainly took the easy way out in having the new aliens, especially the Angarans with whom we spend the majority of our time interacting with, behave almost exactly like us. Literally, within five to ten seconds of meeting them, we not only decipher their language but also can completely understand their general idioms and other figures of speech. Our cultures our instantly compatible, and the only real degree of mistrust from them stems from the actions of the Khet. I mean we already had all the human-like qualities in our Milky Way allies, why did the Andromeda aliens have to immediately get lumped into that general concept as well? The Angara are just another human in makeup lost among all the other aliens on the Nexus like your Turians and Asari, and so dilutes the setting further with its overly human-centric cast (IMO).
Being relatable is an often used reason for that approach to things, but one can make things relatable without just aping our culture and manner of thinking; it just takes more effort and all round quality writing. For example, imagine if the Angara weren't just designed around having a new race of "bangable" aliens and were instead written similar to the Rachni or the (ME 2 version of the) Geth. Not in the sense that they would just be rehashes of those concepts, but in the sense that you have a decidedly 'alien' society that, while not completely esoteric, requires the players to try and understand a species that operates on a fundamentally different level than us. We didn't have to instantly understand Rachni society, or the intricacies of the the Geth Consensus in order to feel a degree of empathy with them. Indeed, considering how popular Legion was as a companion in ME 2 would lend at least some credence to the fact that not everything has to be exactly like us to be appreciated.
So what if the Angara were like that? We come to a new galaxy and we are forced, both in-game as members of the Initiative, as well as in a meta-sense as players, to find some common ground with a species wholly different than us, but one that is not instantly hostile like the Khet are, and who would be willing to help in our fight against them. BioWare could have made the Angara really memorable with a depiction like that instead of just being "not-human" race # 267. Heck, they could have turned the trite old trope of beautiful = good on it's head if they decided to take it a step further and not have them appeal to our ideas of what is visually appealing/sexually attractive. Imagine if they switched the two sides and had the helpful aliens being the "ugly" ones and the horrific villains being the aesthetically pleasing "pretty" ones. It would also help with the whole diversity thing BioWare likes to parade around if we got some actual diversity in our selection of aliens and not just more humans talking about their [insert current trending social/political] issues.
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