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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 25, 2017 5:45:17 GMT
Sovereign suffers from retroactive plot tomfoolery. Thanks to Harbykins and the Ghost of Vancouver Past, everything it did was foolish.
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Post by Furisco on Jul 25, 2017 5:46:13 GMT
Fuck it he was dope.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 25, 2017 5:52:06 GMT
Trouble I have with Sovereign is that the more I think about its speech and everything it was doing, the more it undermines the premise of the reapers' wiping clear any clues of their existence so that every reaper party is a surprise party. Like, what if Shepard was equipped with a recording device like every car on Russia's roads? Heck if the apocalypse was upon us you know that there would be at least 100 YouTube videos about it before the last human is cast into the pit. I dunno. I guess the whole arrogant machine thing isn't as appealing to me upon revisit. Like, what if Sovereign just detected that the puny biped on the comm wasn't Saren and it just hung up?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: JaegerBane
PSN: JaegerBane
Posts: 582 Likes: 1,110
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 25, 2017 5:55:27 GMT
Again, broadly Earthlike/habitable does not restrict our options to boring desert, or boring ice. Still plenty of options that would be much more alien, or at the very least interesting; Elaaden demonstrates as much. This is all plainly non-sequitur (as is the bit about the Angara being engineered: nothing about being engineered entails that they must be boring). If you liked the environments and new races that we got, that's great, more power to you. But its hardly the case that they could not have been any different given the premise of the story, or that its some outlandish or unreasonable expectation to want alien, unique, and/or interesting environments in an open-world sci-fi game. I'm currently exploring Elaaden on this playthrough and it's reminded me just how spectacular an exploration zone it is. I don't think it was by accident - Bioware clearly had a strong theme in their minds from the start. I just wish they'd hammered out the themes of the other planets a bit more. Havarl is similarly stunning but just needed to be bigger, with more surrounding areas.
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Post by Furisco on Jul 25, 2017 6:01:29 GMT
Trouble I have with Sovereign is that the more I think about its speech and everything it was doing, the more it undermines the premise of the reapers' wiping clear any clues of their existence so that every reaper party is a surprise party. Like, what if Shepard was equipped with a recording device like every car on Russia's roads? Heck if the apocalypse was upon us you know that there would be at least 100 YouTube videos about it before the last human is cast into the pit. I dunno. I guess the whole arrogant machine thing isn't as appealing to me upon revisit. Like, what if Sovereign just detected that the puny biped on the comm wasn't Saren and it just hung up? Dude you're acting like villains need to make sense. They just need to look cool, have a good voice, say some dope shit and beat your ass.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 25, 2017 6:13:59 GMT
I've actually been thinking about this issue recently myself and there are two obvious conclusions. 1. Lack of expertise with frostbite. 2. Or a creative decision. It's the second one that is the most interesting. Sure maybe more alien aliens are more interesting and maybe it's bad writing that bioware thought they couldn't pull it off. But. Compare the kett to the Reapers. The reapers were allllliiiiieennn. All powerful. Alien design . unknowable. Unsympathetic. Monolithic. More a force of nature then an enemy faction. The Ketts design is part of what suggests the opposite. We can know about them. We can understand them. We can understand their motives. We can reason with them. They have depth and nuance and they have different opinions from one another. Which makes them more interesting then the Reapers. And Cerberus for that matter. that's the trouble with memes. Sometimes i need a translator.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 25, 2017 14:35:36 GMT
There were 9 new alien races in ME1. You can try and tweak the numbers as much as you want - there were 2 in Andromeda. This a complaint of nearly every critical review. It's either stupid or tendentious to just compare the number of new races. ( I'm betting this post is the latter.) New or old doesn't really matter. The bulk of the work is in the implementation of the race, not the concept art and writers' guidelines for the race. It'd be different if we were still on the same engine and could just re-use assets, but we're not.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jul 25, 2017 15:08:27 GMT
It's not so much the quantity of alien races, but their quality (IMO). BioWare could add fifty new alien species to Andromeda via DLC and/or sequels, but if they're all just humans with blue/green skin and a rubber prosthetic glued to their forehead then the game will still not be very 'alien'. In fact, it would probably be even more human-centric since the setting would be so diluted with people exactly like us in every way, save for appearance. It was rather disappointing to come all the way to Andromeda, across the depths of dark space, and the first friendly natives we run into are practical mirror images of us in terms of cultural norms and general reliability; heck, they were even more human-like than the Asari, which is saying something. Even the Khet come across as just bony humans once the narrative actually allows Ryder the chance to talk to them. There is no 'other' in Andromeda, no quality writing along the lines of say your aliens like the Rachni, or (ME 2) Geth. Now I'm not saying that species like the ones mentioned above were the best examples of 'alien' writing in any mainstream science fiction ever, but it does bear mentioning how much more nuanced ME 1 was with its various takes on life, how it perceives the universe around it; at how humanity, and our way of thinking or doing things was just a small, small part of a much, much larger universe. Compare that to Andromeda and it's seemingly underlying theme of "Pretty Good Banging" when it came to depicting things and one can begin to see why people are saying ME:A wasn't very 'alien'. That's a fair point. I've said it before in discussions like this, but one series I think does a good job at the aliens being relatable yet alien is Halo. Sure there are some that have similarities but overall you can't really say they are "alien version of this culture". And even those ones look unique compared to humans. Then there are the truly alien ones. Indeed, and if that particular series would stop fawning over the Spartans, how deserving humanity is of "The Mantel", or Master Chief's robo-girlfriend for five seconds maybe we could actually get to see and experience some of those interesting aliens. I still haven't forgiven Bungie/343 for their neutering of the Arbiter's character back down to a bit cameo/background prop level post Halo 2 (The best game in the franchise IMO).
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 25, 2017 15:12:40 GMT
That's a fair point. I've said it before in discussions like this, but one series I think does a good job at the aliens being relatable yet alien is Halo. Sure there are some that have similarities but overall you can't really say they are "alien version of this culture". And even those ones look unique compared to humans. Then there are the truly alien ones. Indeed, and if that particular series would stop fawning over the Spartans, how deserving humanity is of "The Mantel", or Master Chief's robo-girl friend for five seconds maybe we could actually get to see and experience some of those interesting aliens. I still haven't forgiven Bungie/343 for their neutering of the Arbiter's character back down to a bit cameo/background prop level post Halo 2 (The best game in the franchise IMO). I like Halo 3/4/5 as much as the first two. In fact i can't wait to see what the Promethean's and Cortana have in store for us.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jul 25, 2017 15:19:06 GMT
That's a fair point. I've said it before in discussions like this, but one series I think does a good job at the aliens being relatable yet alien is Halo. Sure there are some that have similarities but overall you can't really say they are "alien version of this culture". And even those ones look unique compared to humans. Then there are the truly alien ones. Indeed, and if that particular series would stop fawning over the Spartans, how deserving humanity is of "The Mantel", or Master Chief's robo-girl friend for five seconds maybe we could actually get to see and experience some of those interesting aliens. I still haven't forgiven Bungie/343 for their neutering of the Arbiter's character back down to a bit cameo/background prop level post Halo 2 (The best game in the franchise IMO). Don't think halo will ever drop the spartan focus. One happens to be the poster boy and the game will get ridiculed if it ever gets away from the focus on Spartans. H5 is a good example of what happens when you take screen time away from the chief, it's widely debated as the worst campaign (which I'd agree with but not because of the lack of chief). Not to mention a sub community has tried for 6 years plus just to get the dang hemi as a playable race again, I don't think they(343) care to much about the alien perspective and such.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 25, 2017 15:38:50 GMT
Indeed, and if that particular series would stop fawning over the Spartans, how deserving humanity is of "The Mantel", or Master Chief's robo-girl friend for five seconds maybe we could actually get to see and experience some of those interesting aliens. I still haven't forgiven Bungie/343 for their neutering of the Arbiter's character back down to a bit cameo/background prop level post Halo 2 (The best game in the franchise IMO). Don't think halo will ever drop the spartan focus. One happens to be the poster boy and the game will get ridiculed if it ever gets away from the focus on Spartans. H5 is a good example of what happens when you take screen time away from the chief, it's widely debated as the worst campaign (which I'd agree with but not because of the lack of chief). Not to mention a sub community has tried for 6 years plus just to get the dang hemi as a playable race again, I don't think they(343) care to much about the alien perspective and such. I wouldn't quite say that. Also Chief's absence made sense but 343 acknowledged he should have had more time.
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Post by souljahbill14 on Jul 25, 2017 16:21:38 GMT
Name 1 cluster in the Trilogy that had more than 2 alien species.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jul 25, 2017 16:38:18 GMT
Name 1 cluster in the Trilogy that had more than 2 alien species. Well there's the Elcor and Asari, two widely different aliens with one being rather similar to us, and the other having a district 'alien' flavoring to them. Then there's also the notion of "hidden" species, aliens that either avoided detection or were never considered sentient to the rest of the galaxy that were present alongside other races for undetermined amounts of time. For instance, the Thorian existed on a Ferros, a highly populated Prothean world during their cycle, and was never discovered until the modern era; there's even the possibility that it could have been present on other planets throughout the galaxy, concealing it's presence. Then there's previous excursions of the Rachni, who in the Leviathan DLC, are mentioned to have had colonies spread across large swathes of the galaxy during the time between the Reaper cycles. Some areas now present in the Terminus systems, though they were wiped out before or during the Rachni Wars. Well, technically the space bugs weren't native to those parts of the galaxy, but neither were the Khet to Heleus. EDIT: Oh yeah and the Volus and Turians that you mentioned as well, I forgot about those as well.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 25, 2017 16:38:51 GMT
Name 1 cluster in the Trilogy that had more than 2 alien species. There were more than 2 alien species in the Deception novel. And I think we can all agree, that was a cluster-fuck. ... Sorry, had to be done. - leaves thread in shame.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jul 25, 2017 16:42:11 GMT
Indeed, and if that particular series would stop fawning over the Spartans, how deserving humanity is of "The Mantel", or Master Chief's robo-girl friend for five seconds maybe we could actually get to see and experience some of those interesting aliens. I still haven't forgiven Bungie/343 for their neutering of the Arbiter's character back down to a bit cameo/background prop level post Halo 2 (The best game in the franchise IMO). I like Halo 3/4/5 as much as the first two. In fact i can't wait to see what the Promethean's and Cortana have in store for us. Eh, I was starting to grow fatigued with the direction of the plot by the end of Halo 3, and the forth game turned me off to the franchise entirely with it's introduction of Ancient Advanced Humans . I didn't even buy Halo 5, though the fact that 343 removed split-screen was a major contributing factor to that decision as well.
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Post by souljahbill14 on Jul 25, 2017 16:42:17 GMT
Name 1 cluster in the Trilogy that had more than 2 alien species. There were more than 2 alien species in the Deception novel. And I think we can all agree, that was a cluster-fuck. ... Sorry, had to be done. But how many are in any given cluster? 2 at most. The Turian cluster (Turian and Volus) and the Asari cluster (Asari and Elcor). Unless someone knows something different, all other clusters have only 1 sentient species at most.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 25, 2017 16:45:37 GMT
There were more than 2 alien species in the Deception novel. And I think we can all agree, that was a cluster-fuck. ... Sorry, had to be done. But how many are in any given cluster? 2 at most. The Turian cluster (Turian and Volus) and the Asari cluster (Asari and Elcor). Unless someone knows something different, all other clusters have only 1 sentient species at most. Ok, to answer this question seriously, that's a bad excuse IMO. First: it was the decision of the ME:A writers to make the entire game take place in one cluster, no one forced them. Second: The same rules as in the MW wouldn't have had to apply to Andromeda. Third: In the MW, while there is no known cluster from which more than one or two species originate, they are all mixed now. If you fly into any cluster in the MW you'll meet almost every single species there. So yea, sure, it "makes sense" that there are only 2 species in the Helios cluster but that doesn't make the situation any better IMO.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 25, 2017 16:48:39 GMT
I like Halo 3/4/5 as much as the first two. In fact i can't wait to see what the Promethean's and Cortana have in store for us. Eh, I was starting to grow fatigued with the direction of the plot by the end of Halo 3, and the forth game turned me off to the franchise entirely with it's introduction of Ancient Advanced Humans . I didn't even buy Halo 5, though the fact that 343 removed split-screen was a major contributing factor to that decision as well. Eh that's not really what they are. But it was already known that we were their descendants.
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Post by souljahbill14 on Jul 25, 2017 16:54:34 GMT
But how many are in any given cluster? 2 at most. The Turian cluster (Turian and Volus) and the Asari cluster (Asari and Elcor). Unless someone knows something different, all other clusters have only 1 sentient species at most. Ok, to answer this question seriously, that's a bad excuse IMO. First: it was the decision of the ME:A writers to make the entire game take place in one cluster, no one forced them. Second: The same rules as in the MW wouldn't have had to apply to Andromeda. Third: In the MW, while there is no known cluster from which more than one or two species originate, they are all mixed now. If you fly into any cluster in the MW you'll meet almost every single species there. So yea, sure, it "makes sense" that there are only 2 species in the Helios cluster but that doesn't make the situation any better IMO. That's not a bad excuse. That's the reason. They couldn't reasonably use ALL of Andromeda with no Mass Relays. They had to focus on a single cluster. And you're right, no one told them to use one cluster but they did and for them, 2 species in a single cluster was "realistically" sufficient for their universe.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 25, 2017 17:01:08 GMT
Ok, to answer this question seriously, that's a bad excuse IMO. First: it was the decision of the ME:A writers to make the entire game take place in one cluster, no one forced them. Second: The same rules as in the MW wouldn't have had to apply to Andromeda. Third: In the MW, while there is no known cluster from which more than one or two species originate, they are all mixed now. If you fly into any cluster in the MW you'll meet almost every single species there. So yea, sure, it "makes sense" that there are only 2 species in the Helios cluster but that doesn't make the situation any better IMO. That's not a bad excuse. That's the reason. They couldn't reasonably use ALL of Andromeda with no Mass Relays. They had to focus on a single cluster. And you're right, no one told them to use one cluster but they did and for them, 2 species in a single cluster was "realistically" sufficient for their universe. And I agree with that. 2 races was fine. Now for the next game they just need a reason to abandon/leave helieus for another cluster.
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Post by abaris on Jul 25, 2017 17:04:10 GMT
That's not a bad excuse. That's the reason. The reason is they couldn't be arsed to provide more. Or they ran out of time doing it. Everyone looking for a deeper meaning in the absence of new races is providing excuses for poor design choices. Which is, play it save by using the same old Milky Way races.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 25, 2017 17:11:05 GMT
Ok, to answer this question seriously, that's a bad excuse IMO. First: it was the decision of the ME:A writers to make the entire game take place in one cluster, no one forced them. Second: The same rules as in the MW wouldn't have had to apply to Andromeda. Third: In the MW, while there is no known cluster from which more than one or two species originate, they are all mixed now. If you fly into any cluster in the MW you'll meet almost every single species there. So yea, sure, it "makes sense" that there are only 2 species in the Helios cluster but that doesn't make the situation any better IMO. That's not a bad excuse. That's the reason. They couldn't reasonably use ALL of Andromeda with no Mass Relays. They had to focus on a single cluster. And you're right, no one told them to use one cluster but they did and for them, 2 species in a single cluster was "realistically" sufficient for their universe. But you are missing the point of the thread then. The question is: Would it have been better if ME:A would have been more alien? I think, given the whole focus on exploration and new frontiers, it would have been nice to get a bit more alien and weird experiences into the game. How you work that into the story is then a concern that should be easy to deal with (as I mentioned above). But saying "it wouldn't make sense to have more alien stuff because of the setting", a setting they choe in the first place is looking at it backwards IMO.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: JaegerBane
PSN: JaegerBane
Posts: 582 Likes: 1,110
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 25, 2017 17:32:13 GMT
That's not a bad excuse. That's the reason. They couldn't reasonably use ALL of Andromeda with no Mass Relays. They had to focus on a single cluster. And you're right, no one told them to use one cluster but they did and for them, 2 species in a single cluster was "realistically" sufficient for their universe. But you are missing the point of the thread then. The question is: Would it have been better if ME:A would have been more alien? I think, given the whole focus on exploration and new frontiers, it would have been nice to get a bit more alien and weird experiences into the game. How you work that into the story is then a concern that should be easy to deal with (as I mentioned above). But saying "it wouldn't make sense to have more alien stuff because of the setting", a setting they choe in the first place is looking at it backwards IMO. I'd imagine this goes back to the same point made further up that this constitutes a legitimate thing to dislike, but not a legitimate thing to actually downvote the game on. If a game that is set in an environment that isn't conducive to specific feature you want ends up not providing that feature, then it's not really a valid argument to claim that it actually renders the game inferior... which is basically what the likes of Suko was trying to push further up with the stuff about how 'every review pointed this out'. If we're now arguing that MEA should never have chosen a single cluster as a setting then... sure, I guess, but that's not really anything to do with the thread. That's to do with how many boxes MEA ticked on one's personal wishlist.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: JaegerBane
PSN: JaegerBane
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 25, 2017 17:37:40 GMT
That's not a bad excuse. That's the reason. The reason is they couldn't be arsed to provide more. Or they ran out of time doing it. Everyone looking for a deeper meaning in the absence of new races is providing excuses for poor design choices. Which is, play it save by using the same old Milky Way races. Or they're simply pointing out that expecting millions of new species was never actually promised or was a realistic expectation to have, given that the scenario apparently requires a single cluster to be more densely populated than any other cluster we've ever seen, simply because 'reasons'. Don't get me wrong, I like more aliens as much as the next guy, but insisting that anyone pointing out that there wasn't actually any solid reason for expecting this is 'providing excuses for poor decisions' is simply being silly.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 25, 2017 17:45:36 GMT
But you are missing the point of the thread then. The question is: Would it have been better if ME:A would have been more alien? I think, given the whole focus on exploration and new frontiers, it would have been nice to get a bit more alien and weird experiences into the game. How you work that into the story is then a concern that should be easy to deal with (as I mentioned above). But saying "it wouldn't make sense to have more alien stuff because of the setting", a setting they choe in the first place is looking at it backwards IMO. I'd imagine this goes back to the same point made further up that this constitutes a legitimate thing to dislike, but not a legitimate thing to actually downvote the game on. If a game that is set in an environment that isn't conducive to specific feature you want ends up not providing that feature, then it's not really a valid argument to claim that it actually renders the game inferior... which is basically what the likes of Suko was trying to push further up with the stuff about how 'every review pointed this out'. If we're now arguing that MEA should never have chosen a single cluster as a setting then... sure, I guess, but that's not really anything to do with the thread. That's to do with how many boxes MEA ticked on one's personal wishlist. I would mostly agree with this stance on things and I am not "downvoting" ME:A for not being more alien than it is (it's not a point in my review of the game at all). Would I have liked to get more alien stuff? Sure, as I said in my very first post in this thread yesterday, the game made a good start but quickly fell into too much routine for an exploration focused game. But I can understand that there is only so much content the devs can generate in the time and budged constraints that they had to work with. So it's fine. The only thing I am saying is that the argument "The game takes place in one cluster, so it wouldn't make sense to show more alien stuff" is not valid IMO because that is not a constraint that the devs were forced to adhere to. It was fully under their control, so if that had been the only constraint it would have been the easiest thing in the world to life by simply adapting the story to the concept the devs have for the game.
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