Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Aug 3, 2017 17:58:10 GMT
What you don't seem to understand, is that giving a pass to racism, ANY racism, isn't going to lessen the overall degree of racism, but cause the opposite.
His "reasons" aren't relevant. Judging other people based on their skin color is racism, period. By defending his BS, all you are doing is giving ammunition to actual racists on both extremes.
You can be both a "POC" and a "POS" (piece of shit) at the same time, no one gets protection from that due to "minority" status.
Nothing in the above grouping of tweets is "racist" against white people. It may make you uncomfortable but you are not experiencing racism. I'm not "giving him a pass" -- I'm disagreeing that this is racism, period.Right. Imagine him saying stuff like that about any other group of people. What do you think the reaction would have been?
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warrior
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 18:07:58 GMT
Some of the things you people think are "racist against white people" I have seen expressed both publicly and privately by POC with white spouses, a white parent, or white best friends--because they don't actually "hate white people because they are white" but whiteness as a sociohistorically constructed ideal, and how far white people will go to protect that status--even when they don't even see that they're doing it, such as the white liberals/Democrats Manveer mentions in one of his tweets. And the white people they're close to know that and don't freak out whenever the word "white" is mentioned in a negative comment. Which is why they're close friends or partners in the first place. e.g. Here is Manveer Heir on Insta with his clearly white best friend: http://instagram.com/p/BVdcaK7AJ0P
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 3, 2017 18:31:52 GMT
I'm not a supporter of Manveer's behavior, but just as a 'thought experiment' I'm going to try to see things from his perspective: - If I had got shit from people through my life might I eventually kick back (wrong I know)
- Having got a taste for kicking back 'white tears' mug etc, there's no real going back on the internet
- Now he's a 'poster boy' for 'white-racist' supporting BioWare who has ugly women and 'gays' in their game.
- I can point to dozens of racists in YouTube comments who seem emboldened to hate on any given day (racist SJW BioWare...)
I think he's behaved like an ass but his role in BioWare's output and the importance of the hate against him has been over-stated in my view.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 18:37:47 GMT
If you do an image search, you can find the ones people focused on: *cut for length* A lot of it is sarcasm/jokes about white people not understanding systemic racism, or being babies and claiming that brown people oppress them. There was one tweet I did think was in poor taste and should not have been posted (not pictured here, just remember seeing it and wincing), but most did not offend me. Yep, none of those are racist IMHO. Figured as much. Edit: That other Hanako Ikezawa posted a screenshot of was over the line though. None of it in pieces is really a problem. It's just all there in one place with the BioWare logo all over it. That's the problem. He didn't even try to hide it... he said he felt supported. REALLY?!?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 18:39:39 GMT
I'm not a supporter of Manveer's behavior, but just as a 'thought experiment' I'm going to try to see things from his perspective: - If I had got shit from people through my life might I eventually kick back (wrong I know)
- Having got a taste for kicking back 'white tears' mug etc, there's no real going back on the internet
- Now he's a 'poster boy' for 'white-racist' supporting BioWare who has ugly women and 'gays' in their game.
- I can point to dozens of racists in YouTube comments who seem emboldened to hate on any given day (racist SJW BioWare...)
I think he's behaved like an ass but his role in BioWare's output and the importance of the hate against him has been over-stated in my view.
He's not even on the forum tho Sofa. He won't even notice the knightly defense.
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Heimdall
N6
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 3, 2017 18:39:46 GMT
Some of the things you people think are "racist against white people" I have seen expressed both publicly and privately by POC with white spouses, a white parent, or white best friends--because they don't actually "hate white people because they are white" but whiteness as a sociohistorically constructed ideal, and how far white people will go to protect that status--even when they don't even see that they're doing it, such as the white liberals/Democrats Manveer mentions in one of his tweets. And the white people they're close to know that and don't freak out whenever the word "white" is mentioned in a negative comment. Which is why they're close friends or partners in the first place. e.g. Here is Manveer Heir on Insta with his clearly white best friend: Has it occurred to you that making broad generalizations about a racial group is, by definition, racist? Is it such a terrible thing that some white people believe they should be treated with as much respect as they are expected to treat other groups with and not have to condone denigrating racially targeted generalizations? Frankly, the statements themselves don't bother me, what I find intensely annoying is the fact that this justification you offer is given to excuse statements that, if directed at virtually any other group, would be considered hateful and bigoted as if making vast generalizations about an entire racial group is any more useful or accurate when applied to white people than any other group. As to "whiteness as a sociohistorically constructed ideal," I believe the important word there is "historical." This ideology typically alleges that belief in white supremacy, white priority, or whatever other word you want to use for whiteness being an ideal, is a rampant belief in the west today. I say, prove it. Asserting that any time white people disagree with your paranoid ideas about race they are "defending their status," is ridiculous and untrue, also a terrible self reinforcing argument designed to preemptively delegitimize disagreement without actually having to assess its merits. Also, you do realize that one could argue that pointing out his white friends is the equivalent of an "I have a black friend" argument right?
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warrior
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 18:40:06 GMT
Some of the things you people think are "racist against white people" I have seen expressed both publicly and privately by POC with white spouses, a white parent, or white best friends--because they don't actually "hate white people because they are white" but whiteness as a sociohistorically constructed ideal, and how far white people will go to protect that status--even when they don't even see that they're doing it, such as the white liberals/Democrats Manveer mentions in one of his tweets. And the white people they're close to know that and don't freak out whenever the word "white" is mentioned in a negative comment. Which is why they're close friends or partners in the first place. e.g. Here is Manveer Heir on Insta with his clearly white best friend: ... So essentially "I can't be racist towards X because I have a friend who's X". That doesn't sound like a very good argument tbh.
The point that you seem to be missing, is that when a "negative comment" is centered on someone's race rather than their character, personality, ideology, or other individual traits, such a comment, like it or not, is racist in nature. Since, you know it targets *race*...
The hint should be in the term.
No, that's not the argument I'm making--because white people do not experience racism in a system that privileges their safety and their lives above the lives of brown people daily. Some POC can harbor prejudice of a sort (some might call that a survival skill), but a white person does not experience the (lasting and perpetual) psychological effects of racism just for being white, ever, so your point is purely semantics. The situations are not 1:1 reversible ("what if he said that about black people!!!") because white people are the societal beneficiaries of centuries of violence against non-white people, violence that is still ongoing in many forms... You're basically using the most simplistic thinking imaginable here (a dictionary definition, lol) and ignoring the myriad contextual complexities, such as White people once owned black people and Lynching was once a fun social event for white people and state surveillance and control of brown communities and, like, a trillion other examples of how your discomfort that "white" was used negatively is not at all comparable to the racism people who look like Manveer experience and internalize their entire lives.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
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Dang it.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 18:42:51 GMT
I'm not a supporter of Manveer's behavior, but just as a 'thought experiment' I'm going to try to see things from his perspective: - If I had got shit from people through my life might I eventually kick back (wrong I know)
- Having got a taste for kicking back 'white tears' mug etc, there's no real going back on the internet
- Now he's a 'poster boy' for 'white-racist' supporting BioWare who has ugly women and 'gays' in their game.
- I can point to dozens of racists in YouTube comments who seem emboldened to hate on any given day (racist SJW BioWare...)
I think he's behaved like an ass but his role in BioWare's output and the importance of the hate against him has been over-stated in my view.
Right. I wonder if you would go out of your way to make apologies for someone that had similar views on say, blacks, or gays. That's the problem with double standards.
I'm old, but I concur. If you're going to respond, be consistent. Not silent on one issue because it's convenient (and probably legal and PR are all over this as well). I'm still aggravated about not speaking up for Sam Maggs. That other one that claimed to be the director or whatever... it's someone young (and dumb and reeks of desperation. Lesson learned.) and trying to attract offers for work. The insane bunch of hate by cowards hiding behind anonymity was savage. Unacceptable and worthy of lengthy, public beating. Lesson learned.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 3, 2017 18:43:02 GMT
I'm not a supporter of Manveer's behavior, but just as a 'thought experiment' I'm going to try to see things from his perspective: - If I had got shit from people through my life might I eventually kick back (wrong I know)
- Having got a taste for kicking back 'white tears' mug etc, there's no real going back on the internet
- Now he's a 'poster boy' for 'white-racist' supporting BioWare who has ugly women and 'gays' in their game.
- I can point to dozens of racists in YouTube comments who seem emboldened to hate on any given day (racist SJW BioWare...)
I think he's behaved like an ass but his role in BioWare's output and the importance of the hate against him has been over-stated in my view.
Right. I wonder if you would go out of your way to make apologies for someone that had similar views on say, blacks, or gays. That's the problem with double standards.
Wasn't an apology, I don't like how he's behaved. If a white person retaliated after being hassled by black people, Or a hetero person retaliated after being hassled by gay people, I suspect I would similarly view them as an ass as well, so no double standard there. Just my personal view.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 18:44:24 GMT
"No, that's not the argument I'm making--because white people do not experience racism in a system that privileges their safety and their lives above the lives of brown people daily. Some POC can harbor prejudice of a sort (some might call that a survival skill), but a white person does not experience the (lasting and perpetual) psychological effects of racism just for being white, ever, so your point is purely semantics. The situations are not 1:1 reversible ("what if he said that about black people!!!") because white people are the societal beneficiaries of centuries of violence against non-white people, violence that is still ongoing in many forms... You're basically using the most simplistic thinking imaginable here (a dictionary definition, lol) and ignoring the myriad contextual complexities, such as White people once owned black people and Lynching was once a fun social event for white people and state surveillance and control of brown communities and, like, a trillion other examples of how your discomfort that "white" was used negatively is not at all comparable to the racism people who look like Manveer experience and internalize their entire lives."
Yeah that social justice bullshit can fuck right off.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 18:47:52 GMT
Nothing in the above grouping of tweets is "racist" against white people. It may make you uncomfortable but you are not experiencing racism. I'm not "giving him a pass" -- I'm disagreeing that this is racism, period.Right. Imagine him saying stuff like that about any other group of people. What do you think the reaction would have been? Let me take a picture of the same cup with Black Tears here in Texas with the BioWare logo. Yeah. I'm already feeling the ugliness in my heart and chest for even saying that. Whoever thinks it's just okay is wrong. If it was an attempt at humor, and that's his defense, well we all screw up. If not, f*** him because he's past tense. White privilege feeds into socialism bullcrap that wants to spread wealth. That's how I see it and it's pathetic. My Dad is a Communist-fleeing immigrant, never went to college, left professional baseball behind and came to the US with nothing on his back. Three kids in tow and me, unplanned, a few years later. Dad busted his ass in the garment industry and NEVER took a day off. He saved enough money to buy a lot on Daytona Beach overlooking the water. He imagined Cuba from where he was standing, but he liked being 90 miles north instead of south. Minorities work double harder than whites to get where they want, but their kids equalize the playing ground. That's how it works. It's always a struggle. Nothing is easy, but to blame others for race warfare is weak, cowardice and let's just say it anyway... a copout. Get over it, save money, and do it your way... otherwise, go to college, get educated and make it happen. If not, sell drugs. Who cares? Just don't be a whiny snowflake. By the way, I don't know Heir's heritage, but my niece married Shayam, a very nice and noble guy from India. He's second generation and he is a freakin' hustler (licensed in corporate and medical insurance, manages a portfolio of family real estate, etc. Why? His parents didn't make excuses either.) and I'm proud of him.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 3, 2017 18:50:28 GMT
So we're agreed that the twitter outbursts from Manveer paint him as a moronic asshole. Good. So why is this thread treating his views on what it was like working at BioWare with credence again?
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warrior
N3
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 18:50:29 GMT
Some of the things you people think are "racist against white people" I have seen expressed both publicly and privately by POC with white spouses, a white parent, or white best friends--because they don't actually "hate white people because they are white" but whiteness as a sociohistorically constructed ideal, and how far white people will go to protect that status--even when they don't even see that they're doing it, such as the white liberals/Democrats Manveer mentions in one of his tweets. And the white people they're close to know that and don't freak out whenever the word "white" is mentioned in a negative comment. Which is why they're close friends or partners in the first place. e.g. Here is Manveer Heir on Insta with his clearly white best friend: Has it occurred to you that making broad generalizations about a racial group is, by definition, racist? Is it such a terrible thing that some white people believe they should be treated with as much respect as they are expected to treat other groups with and not have to condone denigrating racially targeted generalizations? Frankly, the statements themselves don't bother me, what I find intensely annoying is the fact that this justification you offer is given to excuse statements that, if directed at virtually any other group, would be considered hateful and bigoted as if making vast generalizations about an entire racial group is any more useful or accurate when applied to white people than any other group. As to "whiteness as a sociohistorically constructed ideal," I believe the important word there is "historical." This ideology typically alleges that belief in white supremacy, white priority, or whatever other word you want to use for whiteness being an ideal, is a rampant belief in the west today. I say, prove it. Asserting that any time white people disagree with your paranoid ideas about race they are "defending their status," is ridiculous and untrue, also a terrible self reinforcing argument designed to preemptively delegitimize disagreement without actually having to assess its merits. Also, you do realize that one could argue that pointing out his white friends is the equivalent of an "I have a black friend" argument right? See my comment about the limitations of "definitions" below, and how these situations are not reversible in my mind. As well as how "history" is not a vacuum but the foundation upon which a society is built.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 18:50:32 GMT
I'm not a supporter of Manveer's behavior, but just as a 'thought experiment' I'm going to try to see things from his perspective: - If I had got shit from people through my life might I eventually kick back (wrong I know)
- Having got a taste for kicking back 'white tears' mug etc, there's no real going back on the internet
- Now he's a 'poster boy' for 'white-racist' supporting BioWare who has ugly women and 'gays' in their game.
- I can point to dozens of racists in YouTube comments who seem emboldened to hate on any given day (racist SJW BioWare...)
I think he's behaved like an ass but his role in BioWare's output and the importance of the hate against him has been over-stated in my view.
Manveer flipped the script and tweeted some stuff for the shock value. He had to know it would garner attention, and it has. Whether he actually feels that way, or is merely trolling, is unknown. Either way, it isn't worth my time or attention.
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warrior
N3
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 18:54:28 GMT
Right. Imagine him saying stuff like that about any other group of people. What do you think the reaction would have been? Let me take a picture of the same cup with Black Tears here in Texas with the BioWare logo. Yeah. I'm already feeling the ugliness in my heart and chest for even saying that. Whoever thinks it's just okay is wrong. If it was an attempt at humor, and that's his defense, well we all screw up. If not, f*** him because he's past tense. Well, yeah, because black communities have tears to shed for legitimate reasons, such as police killing their 12 year old boys and getting away with it, and white people don't. Yet they cry anyway all the time about how POC are unfair to them and how white people are the real victims. Come on now. You're better than this.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 18:55:43 GMT
Let me take a picture of the same cup with Black Tears here in Texas with the BioWare logo. Yeah. I'm already feeling the ugliness in my heart and chest for even saying that. Whoever thinks it's just okay is wrong. If it was an attempt at humor, and that's his defense, well we all screw up. If not, f*** him because he's past tense. Well, yeah, because black communities have tears to shed for legitimate reasons, such as police killing their 12 year old boys and getting away with it, and white people don't. Yet they cry anyway all the time about how POC are unfair to them and how white people are the real victims. Come on now. You're better than this. PIGS IN A BLANKET FRY LIKE BACON! WHAT DO WE WANT? DEAD COPS! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NOW! *Sign that says white lives matter too much in the background* UHURU! The victim cult can go fuck itself.
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 18:58:22 GMT
So we're agreed that the twitter outbursts from Manveer paint him as a moronic asshole. Good. So why is this thread treating his views on what it was like working at BioWare with credence again? I got lost. Thanks. This heat... dude... this heat.
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Post by browncoatn7 on Aug 3, 2017 19:00:14 GMT
Well, yeah, because black communities have tears to shed for legitimate reasons, such as police killing their 12 year old boys and getting away with it, and white people don't. Yet they cry anyway all the time about how POC are unfair to them and how white people are the real victims. Come on now. You're better than this. PIGS IN A BLANKET FRY LIKE BACON! WHAT DO WE WANT? DEAD COPS! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NOW! *Sign that says white lives matter too much in the background* UHURU! The victim cult can go fuck itself. The people in that "victim cult" are unhappy over police officers repeatedly murdering black people and getting away with it. The people in this "victim cult" are unhappy about some guy having a "white tears" mug.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
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Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 19:00:16 GMT
Let me take a picture of the same cup with Black Tears here in Texas with the BioWare logo. Yeah. I'm already feeling the ugliness in my heart and chest for even saying that. Whoever thinks it's just okay is wrong. If it was an attempt at humor, and that's his defense, well we all screw up. If not, f*** him because he's past tense. Well, yeah, because black communities have tears to shed for legitimate reasons, such as police killing their 12 year old boys and getting away with it, and white people don't. Yet they cry anyway all the time about how POC are unfair to them and how white people are the real victims. Come on now. You're better than this. My hometown of Newburgh is under assault by MS-13 thugs. Would it be cool then to drink brown tears? It's bullcrap.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 19:01:57 GMT
PIGS IN A BLANKET FRY LIKE BACON! WHAT DO WE WANT? DEAD COPS! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? NOW! *Sign that says white lives matter too much in the background* UHURU! The victim cult can go fuck itself. The people in that "victim cult" are unhappy over police officers repeatedly murdering black people and getting away with it. The people in this "victim cult" are unhappy about some guy h aving a "white tears" mug.Nah that's just stupid and harmless. It's the double standard.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 3, 2017 19:02:09 GMT
So we're agreed that the twitter outbursts from Manveer paint him as a moronic asshole. Good. So why is this thread treating his views on what it was like working at BioWare with credence again? I got lost. Thanks. This heat... dude... this heat. I know, moderators usually lock Manveer discussions on sight because it is almost impossible for the thread not to veer off into angry. I wonder if Patrick Weekes actually has a 'fan tears' mug?
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kelarqshah
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Post by kelarqshah on Aug 3, 2017 19:02:41 GMT
No, that's not the argument I'm making--because white people do not experience racism in a system that privileges their safety and their lives above the lives of brown people daily. Some POC can harbor prejudice of a sort (some might call that a survival skill), but a white person does not experience the (lasting and perpetual) psychological effects of racism just for being white, ever, so your point is purely semantics. The situations are not 1:1 reversible ("what if he said that about black people!!!") because white people are the societal beneficiaries of centuries of violence against non-white people, violence that is still ongoing in many forms... You're basically using the most simplistic thinking imaginable here (a dictionary definition, lol) and ignoring the myriad contextual complexities, such as White people once owned black people and Lynching was once a fun social event for white people and state surveillance and control of brown communities and, like, a trillion other examples of how your discomfort that "white" was used negatively is not at all comparable to the racism people who look like Manveer experience and internalize their entire lives. Right. I was waiting for you to pull out the textbook SJW definition for racism. Unfortunately for you, the definition of racism is already quite established, it means prejudice and discrimination based on race. That's it.
Any ideology that allows one person to act like a moronic asshole, and condemns another for doing the same, is an hypocritical pile of horse shit. So, I only actually found this out today from my girlfriend, but there's apparently a difference between the dictionary and sociological definitions of racism. Sociologically, racism = privilege + power: People of colour can be prejudiced against white people, but not racist. It may seem like semantics, but it's actually really important, because anyone who complains of reverse racism often doesn't understand the damage they are doing. An institutionally oppressed part of our society (who will not receive equal pay/will get longer jail sentences etc.) is already at a major disadvantage without people with advantage appropriating their position as marginalised and under threat. I don't think Manveer should be proud of his comments. Whether or not they were initially intended to be inflammatory, they were. They are certainly prejudiced. They were posted in a public space where they could potentially, whatever their subject matter, impact on his company's reputation. Do it on your Facebook where only your friends and acquaintances can see it. I'm not condoning his actions. Quite the opposite. Prejudicial comments are no better than racists ones. The article's well worth a look though if anyone's interested in this stuff
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:04:17 GMT
No, that's not the argument I'm making--because white people do not experience racism in a system that privileges their safety and their lives above the lives of brown people daily. Some POC can harbor prejudice of a sort (some might call that a survival skill), but a white person does not experience the (lasting and perpetual) psychological effects of racism just for being white, ever, so your point is purely semantics. The situations are not 1:1 reversible ("what if he said that about black people!!!") because white people are the societal beneficiaries of centuries of violence against non-white people, violence that is still ongoing in many forms... You're basically using the most simplistic thinking imaginable here (a dictionary definition, lol) and ignoring the myriad contextual complexities, such as White people once owned black people and Lynching was once a fun social event for white people and state surveillance and control of brown communities and, like, a trillion other examples of how your discomfort that "white" was used negatively is not at all comparable to the racism people who look like Manveer experience and internalize their entire lives. Right. I was waiting for you to pull out the textbook SJW definition for racism. Unfortunately for you, the definition of racism is already quite established, it means prejudice and discrimination based on race. That's it.
Any ideology that allows one person to act like a moronic asshole, and condemns another for doing the same, is an hypocritical pile of horse shit.
Kk. Call me when you find racist graffiti on your garage door, or when a neo-Nazi goes into your neighborhood church and shoots 9 members because they're white, or when literally anyone with power over your life (cops, job recruiter, landlord, loaner, professor, boss, etc.) ever treats you differently because you're white.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 19:05:39 GMT
And this is why the social "Sciences" need to be thrown from a fleet of helicopters.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
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Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 19:06:19 GMT
Right. I was waiting for you to pull out the textbook SJW definition for racism. Unfortunately for you, the definition of racism is already quite established, it means prejudice and discrimination based on race. That's it.
Any ideology that allows one person to act like a moronic asshole, and condemns another for doing the same, is an hypocritical pile of horse shit. So, I only actually found this out today from my girlfriend, but there's apparently a difference between the dictionary and sociological definitions of racism. Sociologically, racism = privilege + power: People of colour can be prejudiced against white people, but not racist. It may seem like semantics, but it's actually really important, because anyone who complains of reverse racism often doesn't understand the damage they are doing. An institutionally oppressed part of our society (who will not receive equal pay/will get longer jail sentences etc.) is already at a major disadvantage without people with advantage appropriating their position as marginalised and under threat. I don't think Manveer should be proud of his comments. Whether or not they were initially intended to be inflammatory, they were. They are certainly prejudiced. They were posted in a public space where they could potentially, whatever their subject matter, impact on his company's reputation. Do it on your Facebook where only your friends and acquaintances can see it.
I'm not condoning his actions. Quite the opposite. Prejudicial comments are no better than racists ones.
The article's well worth a look though if anyone's interested in this stuff And that's my only beef with all this. If the BioWare logo wasn't there... I'd ignore him. He's nobody to me.
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