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Post by Heimdall on Aug 3, 2017 19:06:42 GMT
See my comment about the limitations of "definitions" below, and how these situations are not reversible in my mind. As well as how "history" is not a vacuum but the foundation upon which a society is built. Whatever the limitations of definitions, the principle stands. Racism is wrong. If you think it is acceptable in any circumstances no matter the context, save perhaps in an off color joke, you are a racist. It really is that simple. This isn't a matter of history, this is a matter of treating people with dignity. It is not excusable to make vast generalizations about people according to their race. It is no more excusable to make such generalizations about other characteristics. Asserting that our society is built on history and was extremely racist historically is an insidious attempt to imply that this racism must thus hold sway today. However, such logic would require a denial of the very nature of history. Namely, things change. History is how we chart and record the events and changes of our society over time, it is not a force of predestination that binds us to repeat it. History informs us, but it is not a yoke that controls us. If you want to prove racism holds sway today to the extent you assert, you must actually prove it holds sway today.
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warrior
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:07:22 GMT
Right. I was waiting for you to pull out the textbook SJW definition for racism. Unfortunately for you, the definition of racism is already quite established, it means prejudice and discrimination based on race. That's it.
Any ideology that allows one person to act like a moronic asshole, and condemns another for doing the same, is an hypocritical pile of horse shit. So, I only actually found this out today from my girlfriend, but there's apparently a difference between the dictionary and sociological definitions of racism. Sociologically, racism = privilege + power: People of colour can be prejudiced against white people, but not racist. It may seem like semantics, but it's actually really important, because anyone who complains of reverse racism often doesn't understand the damage they are doing. An institutionally oppressed part of our society (who will not receive equal pay/will get longer jail sentences etc.) is already at a major disadvantage without people with advantage appropriating their position as marginalised and under threat. Thank you. Sometimes it's lonely in these parts. I disagree that "prejudical comments are no better than racist ones" but ultimately I'm glad someone here understands that there is a difference.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 19:07:39 GMT
I got lost. Thanks. This heat... dude... this heat. I know, moderators usually lock Manveer discussions on sight because it is almost impossible for the thread not to veer off into angry. I wonder if Patrick Weekes actually has a 'fan tears' mug? Aw man. That's... no... save that for EA's CEO. He's probably got a fishbowl goblet.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 19:07:40 GMT
Right. I was waiting for you to pull out the textbook SJW definition for racism. Unfortunately for you, the definition of racism is already quite established, it means prejudice and discrimination based on race. That's it.
Any ideology that allows one person to act like a moronic asshole, and condemns another for doing the same, is an hypocritical pile of horse shit.
Kk. Call me when you find racist graffiti on your garage door, or when a neo-Nazi goes into your neighborhood church and shoots 9 members because they're white, or when literally anyone with power over your life (cops, job recruiter, landlord, loaner, professor, boss, etc.) ever treats you differently because you're white. Sure. I'll take you on a grand tour of college campuses. Can't have white diversity officers! Need more PoC representation! Fire those white professors! Or some of the lovely thuggish riots! "HE WHITE! BEAT HIS SHIT!" "MAN THEY BEATING EVERY WHITE PERSON!"
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 3, 2017 19:08:43 GMT
Let me take a picture of the same cup with Black Tears here in Texas with the BioWare logo. Yeah. I'm already feeling the ugliness in my heart and chest for even saying that. Whoever thinks it's just okay is wrong. If it was an attempt at humor, and that's his defense, well we all screw up. If not, f*** him because he's past tense. Well, yeah, because black communities have tears to shed for legitimate reasons, such as police killing their 12 year old boys and getting away with it, and white people don't. Yet they cry anyway all the time about how POC are unfair to them and how white people are the real victims. Come on now. You're better than this. Strawman Nobody has claimed "white people are the real victims" There is, in fact, a middle ground between "white people are the real victims" and "white people can never be victims"
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 19:08:54 GMT
See my comment about the limitations of "definitions" below, and how these situations are not reversible in my mind. As well as how "history" is not a vacuum but the foundation upon which a society is built. Whatever the limitations of definitions, the principle stands. Racism is wrong. If you think it is acceptable in any circumstances no matter the context, save perhaps in an off color joke, you are a racist. It really is that simple. This isn't a matter of history, this is a matter of treating people with dignity. It is not excusable to make vast generalizations about people according to their race. It is no more excusable to make such generalizations about other characteristics. Asserting that our society is built on history and was extremely racist historically is an insidious attempt to imply that this racism must thus hold sway today. However, such logic would require a denial of the very nature of history. Namely, things change. History is how we chart and record the events and changes of our society over time, it is not a force of predestination that binds us to repeat it. History informs us, but it is not a yoke that controls us. If you want to prove racism holds sway today to the extent you assert, you must actually prove it holds sway today.Well said.
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:09:33 GMT
Kk. Call me when you find racist graffiti on your garage door, or when a neo-Nazi goes into your neighborhood church and shoots 9 members because they're white, or when literally anyone with power over your life (cops, job recruiter, landlord, loaner, professor, boss, etc.) ever treats you differently because you're white. Sure. I'll take you on a grand tour of college campuses. Can't have white diversity officers! Need more PoC representation! Fire those white professors! Or some of the lovely thuggish riots! "HE WHITE! BEAT HIS SHIT!" "MAN THEY BEATING EVERY WHITE PERSON!" You're pretty racist.
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:10:15 GMT
Well, yeah, because black communities have tears to shed for legitimate reasons, such as police killing their 12 year old boys and getting away with it, and white people don't. Yet they cry anyway all the time about how POC are unfair to them and how white people are the real victims. Come on now. You're better than this. Strawman Nobody has claimed "white people are the real victims" There is, in fact, a middle ground between "white people are the real victims" and "white people can never be victims" It's not a strawman becuase I have seen white people say that, and I am talking about those white people, obviously.
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:11:04 GMT
Kk. Call me when you find racist graffiti on your garage door, or when a neo-Nazi goes into your neighborhood church and shoots 9 members because they're white, or when literally anyone with power over your life (cops, job recruiter, landlord, loaner, professor, boss, etc.) ever treats you differently because you're white. Because black cops / job recruiters / landlords / loaners / bosses / professors do not exist? Or are incapable of acting based on racist motivation?
All that bullshit about race and power and privilege doesn't hold water. A white homeless person doesn't have any more "power" than a black homeless person, etc.
They absolutely do when it comes to treatment by other people, especially police officers. (And I would imagine their access to things that would help them and their chances of finding employment/housing as a result of that difference in treatment, though I don't have any numbers for that.)
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 3, 2017 19:11:46 GMT
I think the two counter-positions on what is and isn't racism have been articulated quite well. (and let's not start throwing insults at each other, please)
Is there anything more we want to discuss with regard to Manveer and his views on BioWare?
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Post by Iakus on Aug 3, 2017 19:12:38 GMT
"No, that's not the argument I'm making--because white people do not experience racism in a system that privileges their safety and their lives above the lives of brown people daily. Some POC can harbor prejudice of a sort (some might call that a survival skill), but a white person does not experience the (lasting and perpetual) psychological effects of racism just for being white, ever, so your point is purely semantics. The situations are not 1:1 reversible ("what if he said that about black people!!!") because white people are the societal beneficiaries of centuries of violence against non-white people, violence that is still ongoing in many forms... You're basically using the most simplistic thinking imaginable here (a dictionary definition, lol) and ignoring the myriad contextual complexities, such as White people once owned black people and Lynching was once a fun social event for white people and state surveillance and control of brown communities and, like, a trillion other examples of how your discomfort that "white" was used negatively is not at all comparable to the racism people who look like Manveer experience and internalize their entire lives." Yeah that social justice bullshit can fuck right off. Please, tell me more of these "social beneficiaries" of white privilege my ancestors enjoyed.
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:15:31 GMT
"No, that's not the argument I'm making--because white people do not experience racism in a system that privileges their safety and their lives above the lives of brown people daily. Some POC can harbor prejudice of a sort (some might call that a survival skill), but a white person does not experience the (lasting and perpetual) psychological effects of racism just for being white, ever, so your point is purely semantics. The situations are not 1:1 reversible ("what if he said that about black people!!!") because white people are the societal beneficiaries of centuries of violence against non-white people, violence that is still ongoing in many forms... You're basically using the most simplistic thinking imaginable here (a dictionary definition, lol) and ignoring the myriad contextual complexities, such as White people once owned black people and Lynching was once a fun social event for white people and state surveillance and control of brown communities and, like, a trillion other examples of how your discomfort that "white" was used negatively is not at all comparable to the racism people who look like Manveer experience and internalize their entire lives." Yeah that social justice bullshit can fuck right off. Please, tell me more of these "social beneficiaries" of white privilege my ancestors enjoyed.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Aug 3, 2017 19:15:56 GMT
So much extremism on these comments, Nothing is white and black guys!, There isn't a Paragon or Renegade answear for these kinds of topics. As for the OP: PS: First world problems...
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 3, 2017 19:16:21 GMT
Strawman Nobody has claimed "white people are the real victims" There is, in fact, a middle ground between "white people are the real victims" and "white people can never be victims" It's not a strawman becuase I have seen white people say that, and I am talking about those white people, obviously. It is a strawman because the person you were responding to was not making anything even resembling that argument. We just find the double standard highly annoying, frankly.
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:19:01 GMT
It's not a strawman becuase I have seen white people say that, and I am talking about those white people, obviously. It is a strawman because the person you were responding to was not making anything even resembling that argument. We just find the double standard highly annoying, frankly. White Tears, as a phrase, exists to make fun of that kind of person. I am explaining why White Tears is not offensive and Black Tears is, not saying that Cyan said that. Double standards don't exist when there is a power imbalance on one side of it.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 3, 2017 19:19:13 GMT
Please, tell me more of these "social beneficiaries" of white privilege my ancestors enjoyed. You're going to have to expand on that...
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Post by Iakus on Aug 3, 2017 19:20:56 GMT
It is a strawman because the person you were responding to was not making anything even resembling that argument. We just find the double standard highly annoying, frankly. White Tears, as a phrase, exists to make fun of that kind of person. I am explaining why White Tears is not offensive and Black Tears is, not saying that Cyan said that. Double standards don't exist when there is a power imbalance on one side of it. That just sounds like an excuse for one group to be a$$holes to another group. "It's okay, because they're X!"
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:21:24 GMT
Let me guess--you also believe PizzaGate is a real thing?
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 3, 2017 19:21:42 GMT
Please, tell me more of these "social beneficiaries" of white privilege my ancestors enjoyed. I'm liking it because I love her so much. That expression is what I always got when I met the girlfriend's mom for the first time (white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.) Seriously. I never got married until I met Debbie and her mom said "Bless your heart." I'm not a catch, but hey...
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:24:56 GMT
Let me guess--you also believe PizzaGate is a real thing? You do know that these guys were actually arrested and tried IIRC, right? If you believe PizzaGate is real, then there is no helping you. I am disengaging now, to the relief of SofaJockey.
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Post by Draining Dragon on Aug 3, 2017 19:25:59 GMT
I think the two counter-positions on what is and isn't racism have been articulated quite well. (and let's not start throwing insults at each other, please)Is there anything more we want to discuss with regard to Manveer and his views on BioWare?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2017 19:26:08 GMT
I remember seeing that. It was absolutely disgusting.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 3, 2017 19:27:42 GMT
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Post by warrior on Aug 3, 2017 19:31:29 GMT
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Post by FluffyCannibal on Aug 3, 2017 19:31:42 GMT
From his twitter feed: Some other guy: "Oh man, didn't even realize it got that bad." Manveer: "Oh, it got worse than anyone on the outside probably realizes." Some other guy: "Could I ask if this piece was accurate?" (The Kotaku article). Manveer: "Most of that stuff was accurate, but there is a lot left out IMO" Sounds like there was a lot of internal conflict and infighting - but then again, consider the source... Sounds like he left of his own accord though. Why do you not have anything better to do than consistently post about a game you DON'T EVEN FUCKING OWN? I love laughing at you as much as everyone else, but it's getting pathetic now.
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