pinkjellybeans
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Oct 3, 2017 12:56:47 GMT
Going back to replay all of them, I still enjoy DAO's combat the most. It has a "slower" pace but I actually find the combat encounters resolve faster because DA2 had the annoying respawns and DAI many enemies are hit sponges. The abilities are also the most numerous and diverse for each class. Have to agree here. True. DAO did have that annoying character comment every-time you attacked. BUT....not every attack you made against them connected. Enemies dodged, had debuffs and had a variety of interesting attacks and could easily compensate whatever damage your party dealt. You had to think (most of the time) in order how to defeat a pack of darkspawn or even a boss.
When playing DAO, I recall, my party never just ran straight into battle, I had to think as to how I wanted to do this fight. I'd pass out buffs and run the tank in first. I'd keep an eye on my party's health and toss out damage and debuffs.
DA2 combat was better. Though I did feel it come off as kind of arcade style.
In DAI, all you did was drop a barrier and let the party run in. The most "thinking" you did was to move a tank over to an archer or maybe a mage. Then all you and your party did was bombard them with damage until they died. Unlike the previous two games, guzzling down lyrium/stamina potions was not need for two reasons: One, the fights never lasted that long and two there was a ridculious amount of auto-powers that renewed your stamina/lyrium.
So, what sets the other two games apart from DAI?
Well, I've said this before and I'll say it again: healing spells.
When you completely remove healing spells and change it to an excessive amount of auto/activate buffs, it makes combat less intense. The enemies are less interesting and are basically bopping you over the head with an inflatable hammer; while they just soak up the damage until they die.
When I notice a mage, cleric or druid has the opportunity to cast such healing spells, I know combat is going to be a challenge. Those spells would not be present if it was not. When you remove said spells the challenge in combat is nonexistent.
"Well, you can make enemies be more challenging in the options screen."
Ugh. I should not need to switch on an option to make combat more interesting. That should be in the game by default. Furthermore, since Bioware added in an option for the enemies to be interesting long after the game came out, it should be obvious combat is not good.
I want my combat to be a challenge.
I want to be able to think before just rushing in.
I don't want enemies just to stand there and soak up every hit and then just die.
And I most certainly want my damn tactics set-up menu back so combat does not feel like babysitting.
Bioware should take the good with DAO combat bits and mix it with the good combat bits of DA2 .
This whole MP/MMO style of combat should not be apart of a single player game -especially one with the RPG style. RPG single player games (even ones with companions) should work together to defeat the enemy and/or enemies using your mind. Not this whole, party mob rushes in and just beats enemies with a rolling pin until they can take no more. What is this? Tom and Jerry combat!?!
Most of us here are adults and I doubt anyone of us appreciates having are hand held when it comes to combat. Whats next for DA4? Bioware going to wipe my character's ass?!?
(shakes head). I absolutely agree with this. DAO and DA2's combat are like night and day in a sense, but both were fun to me for different reasons. I really liked that with DAO, sometimes I HAD to use the tactical camera, otherwise a certain enemy would just wipe out my entire party in seconds (remember those pesky mages with their crushing prisons and fireballs and archers that would stun everyone?). That was incredibly fun for me to actually think how I wanted to approach the fight and remove the biggest threats first. It was more satisfying too. The enemies were intelligent and really challenged you and made you think on your feet. The diversity in the skills, specially spells on mages, also made it much more interesting because you could achieve something in so many different ways. In DA2 the combat was fast-paced but really fun too. The tactics were still there and you could do the same thing you did in DAO but it made more sense to me to go head on into fights and wreck everyone with a bunch of spells and crazy skills. Basically YOLO, if you please. Probably not as satisfying but incredibly fun and it made sense for a game like DA2. In DAI the combat is just weird. Most of the times I can't use the tactical camera because it gets stuck in every rock and doesn't let you see past ceilings or anything, so I'm left with smashing buttons. Last night I went through the Descent DLC for the first time and during a fight (with waves of 5482159 darkspawn) I was honestly having dinner while just holding the attack button and pushing the skills buttons every now and then. It's boring. It's not as diverse and engaging as DAO and it's not as fast-paced and fun as DA2. So yeah, I sort of agree with the OP but I don't think DA4 needs to be one or the other exclusively. They can combine both if they do it right. I'd prefer if the tactical elements would remain (an actual tactical camera that works and tactics) and then the combat itself could be more fast-paced like DA2 (please for the love of God let my character actually run with weapons drawn) with the enemy complexity and diversity of skills/spells of DAO. If not, then I'd prefer if it would go back to DAO's combat style but I'm willing to bet that is not going happen.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 3, 2017 16:14:40 GMT
And they could set up of having companions as an option without making a player to rely on them for example: On DAII I decided to go solo to see that I could kick ass all by myself, but I quickly died by bandits @ Hightown. I don't like what they did for me to rely on companions all the time. I like it how Fallout and Skyrim provide that option without penalizing me to go alone without a companion. Ew. Trivializing companions in a party based franchise would be terrible. I found it a massive issue in balance that solo runs were even a thing in DAI. Companions being completely useless in MEA was terrible. You couldn't even gear them up! It felt like Ryder was some weird war-android on a permanent escort mission to useless exposition bots. I'm usually all for options but not when it completely changes the experience for everyone. I want to rely on my companions. I don't want to be some superdemigod who can 1v20 trained soldiers. I guess if the Trials system comes back they could make one that triples your stats or whatever if you have no companions, like the Lone Wolf talent in DoS series, or just make the easiest difficulty so easy you can solo it *shrug*. I still think that it should be optional, and what's wring with making your own decisions to have a companion or going alone? And they should set up a balance to have players decide what they want without penalizing players.
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Post by cloud9 on Dec 29, 2017 7:26:01 GMT
This game came out in 2002 and the animations of swordplay is awesome for a PS2 game, and Origins in 2009 combat animations are shitty. This shit is sad.
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Post by river82 on Dec 29, 2017 10:43:40 GMT
There seems to be a bit of confusion about combat that really needs to be cleared up. Dragon Age Origins like Baldur's Gate before it emphasised strategic combat, not tactical combat. Tactical combat is a short sequence of moves, strategic combat represents long term planning involving positioning and mobility. This emphasis on positional play is why BG and Origins had a top down camera.
When people say Dragon Age 2 keeps the tactical combat of the series, these people continue the incorrect idea that Dragon Age Origins was about tactical combat. It's not, it's about strategic combat. Something impossible in DA:2 for no other reason than the absurd wave combat.
People may like the action oriented combat in DA:2, but to say it kept or improved the essence of the DA:O combat is wrong.
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Post by vallixas on Jan 26, 2018 4:13:45 GMT
I find it hard to say anything that DAI did better than DA2 when it came to combat, a lot of the changes did nothing but make the combat significantly worse. I've gone from playing DAO and DA2 on Nightmare to spamming killallhostiles in DAI. Very much this, nightmare is a joke in Inquisition because of how broken not only the combat was but the majority of the classes as well.
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 27, 2018 4:21:18 GMT
I hate the Combos mechanic. I've hated it since Mass Effect 2. I hate that it feels so mandatory in order to get decent damage. Can't some attacks be powerful on their own? Honestly, depending on who I use in my party, I often get a ton of combos with my companions without even trying. When I first played on 360, when the game slows down a second because you're scoring a combo, I kept thinking, "Hell, I'm overloading the 360 with all these graphic effects!"
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 1, 2018 12:27:28 GMT
Still think that Inquisition had the best combat in the series. DA4 should keep it and simply add DA2's Tactics menu and more skills/spells IMO. Yeah I presonally feel DAI's is probably the best as well but then for me DAI outshines both the other 2 games in pretty much every area. It's not quiet my favouriet game but for me I'd put in my top 3 just behind ME2 and 3
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 4, 2018 21:38:01 GMT
There seems to be a bit of confusion about combat that really needs to be cleared up. Dragon Age Origins like Baldur's Gate before it emphasised strategic combat, not tactical combat. Tactical combat is a short sequence of moves, strategic combat represents long term planning involving positioning and mobility. This emphasis on positional play is why BG and Origins had a top down camera. When people say Dragon Age 2 keeps the tactical combat of the series, these people continue the incorrect idea that Dragon Age Origins was about tactical combat. It's not, it's about strategic combat. Something impossible in DA:2 for no other reason than the absurd wave combat. People may like the action oriented combat in DA:2, but to say it kept or improved the essence of the DA:O combat is wrong.
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Post by jnericsonx on Feb 5, 2018 5:03:53 GMT
Honestly, I want them to go back to the character specific special skill trees from DA2. Inquisition and DAO don't count, as your character depending on class can become a mirror image of any of the companions. I mean Fenris's Lyrium powers tree, Varric's Bianca tree, Anders "I have issues" tree, etc. THOSE made my companions feel more unique.
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Post by LukeBarrett on Feb 5, 2018 7:06:27 GMT
Honestly, I want them to go back to the character specific special skill trees from DA2. Inquisition and DAO don't count, as your character depending on class can become a mirror image of any of the companions. I mean Fenris's Lyrium powers tree, Varric's Bianca tree, Anders "I have issues" tree, etc. THOSE made my companions feel more unique. This is usually a scope problem but I completely agree that it feels better when your teammates feel like their own unique character rather than a mirror image as you said
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jediguardian
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I want to be gay in game. Romance is just option, Just let me be gay & stop force romance.
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Post by jediguardian on Feb 5, 2018 7:39:38 GMT
I love combat from DA2. It's fun and full of action (not include "enemy spawn out of nowhere" part). I also love that Mage can use melee attack by their staff. Combat in DAO is fine but slower than my taste and mage still use staff even when enemy engage them make me . DAI is a bit annoying because game lack of basic control from the other 2 game.
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Post by jnericsonx on Feb 5, 2018 8:02:00 GMT
Yeah, see, I loved that in DA2, with Mages AND Archer Rogues. Point blank, albeit the damage probably was less than the bow attacks, you pull out a knife and went Legolas style. That was a beautiful bit of realism!
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Post by mmoblitz on Feb 5, 2018 20:42:14 GMT
For me, DA2 is the best of the DA series for me. From story, characters, dialog, and Combat. DAO is second and DAI is a distant 3rd. Not much in DAI that I liked.
Bring back the damn healing tree. The loss of that and tactics we had in DAO/DA2 is what made combat enjoyable for me in the first two games. I probably could have lived with the combat with DAI if the characters weren't so forgettable. Only played it once and no DLC for me.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 6, 2018 3:17:59 GMT
This is what the team should invest on their combat design entirely based on motion capture. I think this will be a very good investment to hire experts of swordfighting, and acrobatics (for dodging and jumping) to make combat more fun to play.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 15, 2022 9:15:39 GMT
Since it's still relevant: I need a game that either doesn't require me to have heads in a certain order, speed or aim myself, or it should make me immortal. Games these days are always higher faster further.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 15, 2022 11:32:31 GMT
DAO combat was terrible. Spongy. Stupid lemming AI. No consequences ignoring zones of control, just mindless hack and slash and pile the conga lone on the mages. It was so bad I played only until end of prologue in 2nd playthrough.
DAI evolved to Action driven gameplay. Many hate it but it is a consequential evolution and it works a lot better than the mess in DAO. The last system with working isometric pausable RTS combat was Baldur's Gate I believe.
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 15, 2022 14:22:33 GMT
The last system with working isometric pausable RTS combat was Baldur's Gate I believe. The Pillars of Eternity games have good and functional isometric RTS cRPG combat!
But yes, it's not been BioWare's strong suit for many years and I agree that DAI combat is better than DAO combat. Hopefully they figure out something even better with DAD.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 15, 2022 18:59:28 GMT
One of the biggest faults of every single Dragon Age game has been the combat. I couldn't disagree more, really. I think combat has always been one of the strengths of the Dragon Age games. DA2 did it best, but I found combat very enjoyable in all three. In general, combat in rpgs is often not great. Ultima VII was a big game for me, a true classic, but the combat was awful. Then look at the Elder Scrolls games where combat never really rises above hack and slash. I could go on, but in such company I think DA is certainly above average. With mods, Elder Scrolls can have very good combat.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 16, 2022 1:19:04 GMT
I see it didn't take long to get a full range of opinions on this. Prefers DAO Prefers DA2 Prefers DAI Would prefer more action-oriented Would prefer more tactical DAI combat is too frantic DAI combat is too slow Aye I think everyone would do well to keep in mind that the best combat for them is the worst combat for someone else. You can't be objectively right about whats more fun or what makes the better game because what combat/gameplay is fun and makes a game better for a person is entirely subjective. Different strokes for different folks. Like I've been playing & enjoying turn based table top rpgs like dnd since i was a child, so when people call dragon age combat 'too slow' it amuses me a bit. But I know that they likely enjoy fast paced twitch/reaction based gameplay in their video games, so for them it is too slow. Even as the fast action combat they want is to fast and not enjoyable for me. I know that by virtue of being on these boards I'm in the minority of gamers. Most Dreadwolf players will be casual and new players. Who those majority of DAD players will be, will largely be dependent by what type of game DAD is and how they represent that in marketing. Having and marketing combat/gameplay (a) will attract players who like (a). Having and marketing combat/gameplay ( will attract players who like ( . Etc. So I don't think the majority opinion of this board and others is going to affect the decision. Doesn't mean we can't have fun speculating about it and sharing our opinions. 😉 Just no point in getting too heated about it.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 16, 2022 3:05:16 GMT
Personally I enjoy fully controlling a party of characters in combat. What abilities they use and when, who they attack, whether they move or hold. It has a joy you don't get from just controlling one guy.
I enjoy having a pause button which allows me to easily control those characters. And pausing gives me all the time in the world to decide what to do next, to assess my enemies, the terrain, my own abilities and best positioning - and decide what the best strategy/tactics are. This is fun for me. I can, and enjoy, pausing after each set of instructions are completed to give out more, maximising my use of time and letting me watch the cool animations instead of being too distracted by what I'm doing to notice them. It also let's me continue to play when I'm having a bad time with my chronic illness.
I like the Tactical camera, it makes surveying the battlefield and placing AOEs much easier.
I prefer having whether I hit, block or Dodge being determined by character skill and not player skill. As when I play games that use player reaction times, fighting is mostly just button mashing for me, I don't have time to strategize or think much about what I'm doing and it's not fun (i realise there are people who can actively dodge, attack, and block while still thinking about tactics and what to do next but I'm not one of those people, my concentration and reaction times are not that good). Besides it's annoying when I make a character who's meant to be (and is built for) being a dextrous, acrobatic rogue but they can't dodge for shit because I can't, kills the rp fantasy.
The tactics menu isn't strictly necessary if I have all the above, but I did enjoy using it for the easy fights that didn't recquire as much thought. To zoom in on my character knowing the rest of the party would do what i wanted. Being able to choose combat behaviour for each party member (Whether they're aggressive, defense, or passive. Whether they favour melee or ranged, etc) is great. Being able to say 'use this ability any time you see an enemy' but 'only use this ability when you see a powerful enemy (elite, boss etc)' and 'use this ability when this many people are clustered together' were great. The use, don't use, favoured options in dai could result in the party using abilities in situations i wouldn't want them to, archers kept running into melee and no one obeyed the hold command. So in dai I mostly didn't use the ai and stayed in tactical camera in fights (also because the active character wouldn't Auto attack in 3rd person). _____________
Bringing it back to the OP, and whether combat should be Jack-of-all-Trades or not, I'm not sure.
Naturally I'd like it better if they leaned into the Strategical Party Play with Pause, focusing on making that better and innovating new ideas in that area. But if I had to choose between action twitch combat and the hybrid thing that dai had going on I'd vastly prefer the hybrid thing. I didn't like the way MEA took away the pause button and squad power control, for me it's the least enjoyable combat in the mass effect series because of this.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jun 16, 2022 6:37:26 GMT
Combat should not be the JoaT in my view.
Decide to try and be good (or great) at one thing. Don’t try and be everything all at once.
What I would like is more tactical, pause and play combat (like Origins, only faster animation). Be good at that. It’s a point of difference, which is a rare thing to find in the AAA space. But I am more or less resigned to the fact that combat will be more action/twitch based. Which can be super fun. But everyone does it.
And when everyone is super…
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Post by colfoley on Jun 16, 2022 20:20:38 GMT
It occurs to me given the nature of Role Playing...why not?
Now this is with the proviso that of course in DA mages tend to have a little more uniqueness in the universe coupled with how mages are traditionally included it will be hard to include them in this. But the base idea of a jack of all trades is a legitimate idea for any type of warrior that you might want to be. As long as one keeps in mind the second part of that sentence...master of none. So yes a character should be able to invest in a wide variety of skills and attributes but with the understanding that will be a sacrifice somewhere else in the line.
Which was Andromeda's problems. While Andromeda's classless system was pretty good the issue is they didn't have any other limits on it to balance out so you could literally pretty much become a master of all. A level cap I think off the top of my head is the best way to go.
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Post by noviere on Jun 23, 2022 10:31:25 GMT
I just want a better tactical camera. DAI's was useless, IMO.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jun 23, 2022 20:43:00 GMT
I just want a better tactical camera. DAI's was useless, IMO. ‘Useless’ is a little bit harsh, in my opinion, at least. But it does need massive improvement if they’re going have it again. It required way too much effort to be effective (and I used it almost exclusively).
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Post by helios969 on Jul 9, 2022 8:33:29 GMT
DA2 was the best...I love to be able to build crazy overpowered characters...mages and rogues were over-the-top. I just could never do nightmare because Fenris constantly one-shot the party. Friendly fire sucked because the "A.I." just wasn't smart enough to do it a way that real companions would act in an encounter.
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