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Post by Guts on Aug 14, 2017 21:10:53 GMT
I personally didn't understand why a lot of people liked Liara, she felt like a very forced love interest, especially in the later games. Plus her character development was imo, possibly the most egregious one. Liara was most forced in ME1. There's virtually no buildup to her romance. I don't know how the other romances were handled, since I played Femshep and she would have never romanced Kaidan. As for Liara, the other games in the trilogy just take it from the botched effort in ME1. Yeah that romance was admittedly pretty forced, but what I meant by forced in my earlier post was that she was shoved down your throat as a love interest. It's more of Bioware going, "Huh do you love Liara yet? WELL DO YA?" No I don't, I liked her in the first game, but this is just ridiculous. I also wasn't fond of the fact that she couldn't die until the very end, but that requires low EMS, and with low EMS, you die regardless of the ending you picked. I was hoping that MEHEM would allow for a good ending even if you let Liara die, but nope, that version seems to have been removed.
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Post by Guts on Aug 14, 2017 21:17:25 GMT
BioWare would have to make an argument for how Liara went from being a naive and foolish archeologist, to becoming a deadly and cold info broker, killing anyone that's a liability. As you indicated, Liara's motivations make more sense if she was Shepard's love interest. For me it's one of these easy instances of suspending disbelief. I always went with her naive attitude being an act and the real Liara being someone deeply connected and ambitious. The scene in Lair of the Shadow Broker made it even easier. The one where Shepard constantly tries to catch up with her to remind her of what he/she thinks to be the real Liara. I'm pretty sure this all didn't happen by design, but they cut that particular corner pretty nicely to present a different Liara. I touched on this in another post. Imho, I felt in order for Liara's character development to make sense, it requires some sort of fan theory or "therapy" fic. When you mentioned the suspension of disbelief thing, I think it depends on whether or not someone liked Liara in ME1, even then, that hypothesis isn't very reliable, as some people who disliked Liara would dislike her even more in the sequels. Considering I liked her in ME1, I personally felt her character development killed any suspension of disbelief that I had.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 14, 2017 21:37:11 GMT
For me it's one of these easy instances of suspending disbelief. I always went with her naive attitude being an act and the real Liara being someone deeply connected and ambitious. The scene in Lair of the Shadow Broker made it even easier. The one where Shepard constantly tries to catch up with her to remind her of what he/she thinks to be the real Liara. I'm pretty sure this all didn't happen by design, but they cut that particular corner pretty nicely to present a different Liara. I touched on this in another post. Imho, I felt in order for Liara's character development to make sense, it requires some sort of fan theory or "therapy" fic. When you mentioned the suspension of disbelief thing, I think it depends on whether or not someone liked Liara in ME1, even then, that hypothesis isn't very reliable, as some people who disliked Liara would dislike her even more in the sequels. Considering I liked her in ME1, I personally felt her character development killed any suspension of disbelief that I had. It makes more sense if you read the Redemption comics. She went to hell and back to get Shepard back, so I could see how that could change someone. They also tie straight into the whole Shadowbroker DLC. So her character development never really seemed strange to me.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 14, 2017 22:34:08 GMT
It makes more sense if you read the Redemption comics. She went to hell and back to get Shepard back, so I could see how that could change someone. They also tie straight into the whole Shadowbroker DLC. So her character development never really seemed strange to me. Outside material is a poor substitute for a lack of context and poor writing in the games. More effort should have been placed into explaining Liara's change in ME2, rather than her being a minor character you come across on Ilium for a few moments. I'm not sure if Liara's writer had already changed in ME2, but her writer definitely changed in ME3. I know that Drew Karpyshyn wrote her character in ME1, but I'm not positive he wrote her in ME2. She played such a minor role until the Shadow Broker DLC, it's hard to know. That would also be a factor, however, having a change in writers.
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Guts
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Post by Guts on Aug 14, 2017 23:15:30 GMT
I touched on this in another post. Imho, I felt in order for Liara's character development to make sense, it requires some sort of fan theory or "therapy" fic. When you mentioned the suspension of disbelief thing, I think it depends on whether or not someone liked Liara in ME1, even then, that hypothesis isn't very reliable, as some people who disliked Liara would dislike her even more in the sequels. Considering I liked her in ME1, I personally felt her character development killed any suspension of disbelief that I had. It makes more sense if you read the Redemption comics. She went to hell and back to get Shepard back, so I could see how that could change someone. They also tie straight into the whole Shadowbroker DLC. So her character development never really seemed strange to me. The problem is that, depending on how you played through ME1, Shepard doesn't exactly even like her, hell, Shepard could've treated her like garbage, so Liara didn't necessarily have the right to "let Shepard go", plus, iirc, she was acting like how she does in LoTSB during the comics, that was supposed to be before the events that changed her. Also, having an outside source fill in the blanks about character development is not a good idea. Plus, based on how they were shown in ME2 and ME3, Cerberus had more than enough resources to get Shepard back on their own, without the help of the greenest member of Shepard's team.
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Post by Guts on Aug 14, 2017 23:18:03 GMT
It makes more sense if you read the Redemption comics. She went to hell and back to get Shepard back, so I could see how that could change someone. They also tie straight into the whole Shadowbroker DLC. So her character development never really seemed strange to me. Outside material is a poor substitute for a lack of context and poor writing in the games. More effort should have been placed into explaining Liara's change in ME2, rather than her being a minor character you come across on Ilium for a few moments. I'm not sure if Liara's writer had already changed in ME2, but her writer definitely changed in ME3. I know that Drew Karpyshyn wrote her character in ME1, but I'm not positive he wrote her in ME2. She played such a minor role until the Shadow Broker DLC, it's hard to know. That would also be a factor, however, having a change in writers. I might've heard somewhere that Patrick Weekes was the lead writer for LoTSB, but I'm not sure about that. I know that Mac Walters was one of the lead writers of the redemption comics.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 15, 2017 0:04:07 GMT
CAPSLOCK KEK
Besides sucking on a shotgun and pulling the trigger I would not have made Andromeda an-open-world game as it is extremely hard to make one that does not fail hard. Pretty much all open world games are awesome...for 30 minutes, because thats all the time you need to experience everything this world has to offer, after that everything repeats itself in one form or another. I would have stayed true to the franchise and made Andromeda a story driven game like its predecessors with some open world elements.
I think a mix of both story and some open world elements is a recipe for success, why choose if you can take the best of both worlds?
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Post by Guts on Aug 15, 2017 0:13:08 GMT
CAPSLOCK KEK Besides sucking on a shotgun and pulling the trigger I would not have made Andromeda an-open-world game as it is extremely hard to make one that does not fail hard. Pretty much all open world games are awesome...for 30 minutes, because thats all the time you need to experience everything this world has to offer, after that everything repeats itself in one form or another. I would have stayed true to the franchise and made Andromeda a story driven game like its predecessors with some open world elements. I think a mix of both story and some open world elements is a recipe for success, why choose if you can take the best of both worlds? This is me throwing out an idea, but making ME:A a metroidvania style game would've been a way to have a non-linear game whilst also allowing for a good story. This way it also ties in the theme of exploration.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 15, 2017 0:16:28 GMT
CAPSLOCK KEK Besides sucking on a shotgun and pulling the trigger I would not have made Andromeda an-open-world game as it is extremely hard to make one that does not fail hard. Pretty much all open world games are awesome...for 30 minutes, because thats all the time you need to experience everything this world has to offer, after that everything repeats itself in one form or another. I would have stayed true to the franchise and made Andromeda a story driven game like its predecessors with some open world elements. I think a mix of both story and some open world elements is a recipe for success, why choose if you can take the best of both worlds? Why do what's already been done before when you could potentially do something better? That's always been BioWare's policy. Otherwise, they'd still be making RPGs the same exact way they did when they first released Baldur's Gate. I think taking risks and having ambition is fine for game development. I think that's how it pushes the industry forward. It's because games take huge risks, and then have major payoffs, that forces the entire genre to evolve and get better. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto V, The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, and more recently The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, have all tried to push their respective mediums forward, and found large success. And if we are to be completely honest, MEA was not a large departure from Mass Effect. If anything, ME2 and ME3 were large departures from the original vision. MEA was actually an attempt at fully realizing the promise that was the first Mass Effect game. It didn't work out the way BioWare Montreal wanted to, but nothing in the game was actually a departure from what the franchise was originally meant to be.
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Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
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Post by mannyray on Aug 15, 2017 0:21:42 GMT
CAPSLOCK KEK Besides sucking on a shotgun and pulling the trigger I would not have made Andromeda an-open-world game as it is extremely hard to make one that does not fail hard. Pretty much all open world games are awesome...for 30 minutes, because thats all the time you need to experience everything this world has to offer, after that everything repeats itself in one form or another. I would have stayed true to the franchise and made Andromeda a story driven game like its predecessors with some open world elements. I think a mix of both story and some open world elements is a recipe for success, why choose if you can take the best of both worlds? I think the statement that open world games fail pretty hard is more imposing subjective tastes on the game as fact when it isn't. Personally open world is one of the things I like about the game considering it is about exploring new worlds in a new galaxy. The story, childlike dialogue that wasn't seemingly written by adults, no sense that any of your crew could possibly die (and the fact there really wasn't a chance one or more of them could) a lame derivative antagonist were things that worked against solid basic gameplay in a good setting with a solid premise. That said, an aversion to open world vs. a like of it here is probably going to be an "agree to disagree" thing boiling down to personal taste, but if this game had been another essentially bland hallway shooter like ME:2 without the engrossing story to fall back on, this game would have been a true failure not just a deeply flawed financial success.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 15, 2017 0:32:41 GMT
CAPSLOCK KEK Besides sucking on a shotgun and pulling the trigger I would not have made Andromeda an-open-world game as it is extremely hard to make one that does not fail hard. Pretty much all open world games are awesome...for 30 minutes, because thats all the time you need to experience everything this world has to offer, after that everything repeats itself in one form or another. I would have stayed true to the franchise and made Andromeda a story driven game like its predecessors with some open world elements. I think a mix of both story and some open world elements is a recipe for success, why choose if you can take the best of both worlds? Why do what's already been done before when you could potentially do something better? That's always been BioWare's policy. Otherwise, they'd still be making RPGs the same exact way they did when they first released Baldur's Gate. I think taking risks and having ambition is fine for game development. But the very problem of Andromeda is that they played it reeeally safe and just went with the flow a'la Fallout, DA:I etc. There is nothing particular risky or innovative about Andromeda, that is why it is so goddamn...mediocre. Ironically, at this day and age sticking to a story driven design would have been risky and new in the sense of not going with he flow that is mediocre open world games. As I said, I would have done a story driven game with some open world elements. Like making only a couple of the planets ''Open world'', the rest with tight knitted story elements a'la Me2 or 3. Imagine what ME-3 would have been if they offered some maps that allowed the player free-roaming, like the Citadel the size of a ME:A map. Complete with sub-quests, exploration, that would have been wow.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 15, 2017 1:25:36 GMT
But the very problem of Andromeda is that they played it reeeally safe and just went with the flow a'la Fallout, DA:I etc. There is nothing particular risky or innovative about Andromeda, that is why it is so goddamn...mediocre. Ironically, at this day and age sticking to a story driven design would have been risky and new in the sense of not going with he flow that is mediocre open world games. As I said, I would have done a story driven game with some open world elements. Like making only a couple of the planets ''Open world'', the rest with tight knitted story elements a'la Me2 or 3. Imagine what ME-3 would have been if they offered some maps that allowed the player free-roaming, like the Citadel the size of a ME:A map. Complete with sub-quests, exploration, that would have been wow. Except, as I already pointed out, everything Andromeda tried to accomplish was already in ME1... What was ambitious and difficult about this project was determining how far BioWare Montreal wanted to push that vision that started in ME1. I wouldn't say that MEA was as much as a resounding failure as you seem to claim. I actually think it did execute many concepts incredibly well. It's really more of a mixed bag that had some troubles, largely due to a lack of time because of production chaos early on. Outside of the story and characters, I found ME2 and ME3 to be medicore games. They were nothing more than hallway shooters that tried to mimic Gears of War. If not for the strength of the writing and the cinematography, I think many would realize the faults of the original trilogy and how they were streamlined due to a lack of ability to do something better. MEA was an attempt to truly capitalize on the promise of ME1, which was all about exploration and exploring strange, new worlds. If not for internal issues and a lack of focus, I think MEA would have been far more successful in what it attempted to accomplish. The whole concept of an open world not working with a compelling story isn't the issue. We've seen that's very possible and proven in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt. The problem was priority breakdowns and the development hell that was MEA for five years. It did not have proper guidance, which led to the project being impacted in almost every capacity.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 6:12:47 GMT
Andromeda needed more bug testing, that's for sure. If I was creative director, I would have made sure this thing was very thoroughly tested before sending it out the door. It doesn't have to be perfect, but no game breaking issues that would halt progress (eg. Nomad shield bug, other tasks not triggering, or progressing due to some scripting error or whatever). These things should have been fixed before launch. The original trilogy didn't have any side missions or any kind where progress would be halted. Everything worked without issues.
I don't mind Addison's face looking tired. I've seen worse animations in other games. WoW doesn't even have facial or mouth animations for minor NPCs. It was like talking to a guy with a blank facial expression, even though there was audio dialogue coming out of his mouth.
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rpgmaster
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Post by rpgmaster on Aug 17, 2017 15:20:20 GMT
Jettison the entire game and make one about people (and aliens) trying to survive and rebuild after the events of ME3.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 17, 2017 17:09:05 GMT
Jettison the entire game and make one about people (and aliens) trying to survive and rebuild after the events of ME3. Of course, now for the obvious question: How would you resolve ME3's ending to accomplish this goal?
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Post by rpgmaster on Aug 17, 2017 18:34:22 GMT
Jettison the entire game and make one about people (and aliens) trying to survive and rebuild after the events of ME3. Of course, now for the obvious question: How would you resolve ME3's ending to accomplish this goal? Go with the destroy reapers ending. Simple.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 17, 2017 21:00:51 GMT
Quarians alive, genophage cured? High EMS?
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Post by clips7 on Aug 17, 2017 22:29:49 GMT
Jettison the entire game and make one about people (and aliens) trying to survive and rebuild after the events of ME3. This!!....I would not have fast-forward the game 600 years later to try to dismiss any type of canon ending to ME3...pick a canon ending (because there was no way the writers was going to please everybody) and fast-forward maybe a few years later where everybody is still struggling and rebuilding and hit them with another threat.....maybe not as big as the Reaper threat, but something concerning that dark matter/dark energy storyline the writers kinda got away from.... I would have probably created an ending that somehow destroys the Reapers but spares the geth and other AI like EDI....not sure if i would have killed Shepard...(probably not) but if it called for somebody like Ryder, he would have had to have more of an edge to him to compliment the darker storyline....Andromeda felt very tame and vanilla to me...even when they did try to throw some dark and dangerous themes in, the urgency and threat of the Kett never felt fully realized....
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 18, 2017 1:43:52 GMT
Go with the destroy reapers ending. Simple. The only problem, even if you go with High EMS Destroy, is the Geth and all other synthetics are destroyed. That would upset a sizeable portion of the player base, and would probably lead to severe backlash.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 18, 2017 2:35:56 GMT
Go with the destroy reapers ending. Simple. The only problem, even if you go with High EMS Destroy, is the Geth and all other synthetics are destroyed. That would upset a sizeable portion of the player base, and would probably lead to severe backlash. Not really. It takes a little imagination, and a little Biower handwaving, but that's nothing new at this point in the series. Or it takes no imagination... They don't have to talk about the Reapers because they're gone. Quarians or Geth could've had a liveship slip out, or maybe Shepard got better choices in ME3 than we did. All of that doesn't matter. As a Pathfinder, you are setting out to find pathways to new communities and remnants of old, with a mixture of old and new tech in a very spacepunk sort of setting. Exploration galore, finding remnants of things we might give a shit about, etc.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 18, 2017 3:34:33 GMT
Jettison the entire game and make one about people (and aliens) trying to survive and rebuild after the events of ME3. This!!....I would not have fast-forward the game 600 years later to try to dismiss any type of canon ending to ME3...pick a canon ending (because there was no way the writers was going to please everybody) and fast-forward maybe a few years later where everybody is still struggling and rebuilding and hit them with another threat.....maybe not as big as the Reaper threat, but something concerning that dark matter/dark energy storyline the writers kinda got away from.... I would have probably created an ending that somehow destroys the Reapers but spares the geth and other AI like EDI....not sure if i would have killed Shepard...(probably not) but if it called for somebody like Ryder, he would have had to have more of an edge to him to compliment the darker storyline....Andromeda felt very tame and vanilla to me...even when they did try to throw some dark and dangerous themes in, the urgency and threat of the Kett never felt fully realized.... I think that dark energy stuff was kind of doomed from conception. Probably best they never really touch that subject, because it'll only end in madness.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 18, 2017 5:50:35 GMT
Not really. It takes a little imagination, and a little Biower handwaving, but that's nothing new at this point in the series. Or it takes no imagination... They don't have to talk about the Reapers because they're gone. Quarians or Geth could've had a liveship slip out, or maybe Shepard got better choices in ME3 than we did. All of that doesn't matter. As a Pathfinder, you are setting out to find pathways to new communities and remnants of old, with a mixture of old and new tech in a very spacepunk sort of setting. Exploration galore, finding remnants of things we might give a shit about, etc. I don't think you are following the discussion. The poster I was replying to was suggesting what we would have done instead of Andromeda. He wanted to make Destroy the canon ending for ME3 and make a direct sequel after that. I was merely telling him the problems and the obvious plot holes that would ensue.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 18, 2017 10:08:36 GMT
Not really. It takes a little imagination, and a little Biower handwaving, but that's nothing new at this point in the series. Or it takes no imagination... They don't have to talk about the Reapers because they're gone. Quarians or Geth could've had a liveship slip out, or maybe Shepard got better choices in ME3 than we did. All of that doesn't matter. As a Pathfinder, you are setting out to find pathways to new communities and remnants of old, with a mixture of old and new tech in a very spacepunk sort of setting. Exploration galore, finding remnants of things we might give a shit about, etc. I don't think you are following the discussion. The poster I was replying to was suggesting what we would have done instead of Andromeda. He wanted to make Destroy the canon ending for ME3 and make a direct sequel after that. I was merely telling him the problems and the obvious plot holes that would ensue. And that is exactly what I was responding to, and I followed the discussion fine. The ME3 ending doesn't matter, because it was shit. Retcon it however you want, soft or hard, who cares. If people want to cry about muh worldstate.... FFS, this is Biower. Pls.
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Post by clips7 on Aug 18, 2017 12:41:29 GMT
This!!....I would not have fast-forward the game 600 years later to try to dismiss any type of canon ending to ME3...pick a canon ending (because there was no way the writers was going to please everybody) and fast-forward maybe a few years later where everybody is still struggling and rebuilding and hit them with another threat.....maybe not as big as the Reaper threat, but something concerning that dark matter/dark energy storyline the writers kinda got away from.... I would have probably created an ending that somehow destroys the Reapers but spares the geth and other AI like EDI....not sure if i would have killed Shepard...(probably not) but if it called for somebody like Ryder, he would have had to have more of an edge to him to compliment the darker storyline....Andromeda felt very tame and vanilla to me...even when they did try to throw some dark and dangerous themes in, the urgency and threat of the Kett never felt fully realized.... I think that dark energy stuff was kind of doomed from conception. Probably best they never really touch that subject, because it'll only end in madness. I'm not sure...i never fully understood the deal with it, only that the Quarians was studying it. I just thought thought that the writers could come up with something (even if it wasn't dark matter) to give the folks in the Milky Way another threat to deal with while they are struggling to rebuild in the aftermath of the Reapers.
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mannyray
N3
Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Drycake3000
Posts: 635 Likes: 722
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Oct 21, 2024 10:36:46 GMT
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mannyray
Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:23:42 GMT
July 2017
mannyray
Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Drycake3000
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Post by mannyray on Aug 18, 2017 12:58:37 GMT
I'm to the point seeing all these "Milky Way derp"posts makes me want to see it happen just so I can see the baby rage and death threats saturate the web and then everyone will finally shut up and realize it was a lousy idea to take the series back to the Milky Way.
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