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Post by rpgmaster on Aug 18, 2017 15:16:04 GMT
Go with the destroy reapers ending. Simple. The only problem, even if you go with High EMS Destroy, is the Geth and all other synthetics are destroyed. That would upset a sizeable portion of the player base, and would probably lead to severe backlash. If the (hypothetical) game itself was good then it couldn't possibly get as severe a backlash as ME:A did!
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Post by rpgmaster on Aug 18, 2017 15:23:06 GMT
Quarians alive, genophage cured? High EMS? The galaxy is so large you wouldn't have to address many of these issues if you didn't want to. You don't have to run into quarians and geth. And the genophage wouldn't noticeably affect krogans for decades, maybe even centuries anyway.
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Post by clips7 on Aug 18, 2017 16:21:01 GMT
I'm to the point seeing all these "Milky Way derp"posts makes me want to see it happen just so I can see the baby rage and death threats saturate the web and then everyone will finally shut up and realize it was a lousy idea to take the series back to the Milky Way. Why would it be a lousy idea? The Milky Way technically is an unresolved issue because of the endings. A group of respectable writers can probably produce something that wipes out the Reaper threat, but keeps favs like the geth and other AI like EDI. Jettison the series some 600 years later is a a bit of a cop out so they don't have to deal with that issue.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Aug 18, 2017 16:24:59 GMT
If I was Andromeda's creative director... I probably would have wound up in a screaming match with marketing.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 18, 2017 17:29:32 GMT
Quarians alive, genophage cured? High EMS? The galaxy is so large you wouldn't have to address many of these issues if you didn't want to. You don't have to run into quarians and geth. And the genophage wouldn't noticeably affect krogans for decades, maybe even centuries anyway. So the quarians are just a couple of codex entries, whatever happened to them? You'd still need to burn a bunch of dialogue about the krogan. No way the birth rate can't be noticed immediately. Why not just pick choices? You're already canonizing. Might as well be all in, since right now you sound like you want to pay both sets of costs.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 18, 2017 17:32:58 GMT
I'm to the point seeing all these "Milky Way derp"posts makes me want to see it happen just so I can see the baby rage and death threats saturate the web and then everyone will finally shut up and realize it was a lousy idea to take the series back to the Milky Way. Why would it be a lousy idea? The Milky Way technically is an unresolved issue because of the endings. A group of respectable writers can probably produce something that wipes out the Reaper threat, but keeps favs like the geth and other AI like EDI. Jettison the series some 600 years later is a a bit of a cop out so they don't have to deal with that issue. A retcon isn't a cop-out? Not sure where you're going with that.
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Post by clips7 on Aug 18, 2017 17:54:44 GMT
Why would it be a lousy idea? The Milky Way technically is an unresolved issue because of the endings. A group of respectable writers can probably produce something that wipes out the Reaper threat, but keeps favs like the geth and other AI like EDI. Jettison the series some 600 years later is a a bit of a cop out so they don't have to deal with that issue. A retcon isn't a cop-out? Not sure where you're going with that. I think they could get around the Destroy ending. They really only ever showed the Reapers being destroyed and even with the Catalyst stating that ALL A.I. would be destroyed with this option, a few writing adjustments can make it seem like it was lying....which isn't really farther from the truth...can you really trust what the Catalyst stated? When you have the option to shoot it, it goes from an innocent speaking child to a rogue alien creature....who's to say that it's image was to work on Shepards emotions through him/her seeing it as a kid? No way the other two options work....combining with the A.I. is somewhat the perfect ending and Shepard controlling them involves waaaay too much space magic and would be hard to create a narrative from that standpoint. You may retcon the original "Destroy" option a bit, but not to the point to where it would be unbelievable..... Having the Reapers be destroyed, yet having A.I. survive like the geth and EDI could create some un-comfortable moments in terms of folks trusting them and question why they wasn't wiped out with the Reapers while dealing with some other dangerous threat (whatever that may be) while they are rebuilding.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by rpgmaster on Aug 18, 2017 18:38:10 GMT
The galaxy is so large you wouldn't have to address many of these issues if you didn't want to. You don't have to run into quarians and geth. And the genophage wouldn't noticeably affect krogans for decades, maybe even centuries anyway. So the quarians are just a couple of codex entries, whatever happened to them? You'd still need to burn a bunch of dialogue about the krogan. No way the birth rate can't be noticed immediately. Why not just pick choices? You're already canonizing. Might as well be all in, since right now you sound like you want to pay both sets of costs. a) As if Bioware haven't reduced consequences to choices to codex entries before! Even if the game is set immediately or a couple of weeks after ME3, on a planet with no krogans? c) Sure if I made the game and I had infinite resources I would make the most reactive game based on player decisions ever made! But we're talking about BioWare here. We've all seen how they operate and handle choices.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 18, 2017 18:54:40 GMT
And that is exactly what I was responding to, and I followed the discussion fine. The ME3 ending doesn't matter, because it was shit. Retcon it however you want, soft or hard, who cares. If people want to cry about muh worldstate.... FFS, this is Biower. Pls. If there's one thing that BioWare can do to piss off the majority of the fan base, it's a retcon. Making any of ME3's endings canon is already a bad enough retcon. Completely invalidating that game just to do a direct sequel? What's even the point then? Andromeda was definitely the better decision.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 18, 2017 19:15:24 GMT
A retcon isn't a cop-out? Not sure where you're going with that. I think they could get around the Destroy ending. They really only ever showed the Reapers being destroyed and even with the Catalyst stating that ALL A.I. would be destroyed with this option, a few writing adjustments can make it seem like it was lying....which isn't really farther from the truth...can you really trust what the Catalyst stated? When you have the option to shoot it, it goes from an innocent speaking child to a rogue alien creature....who's to say that it's image was to work on Shepards emotions through him/her seeing it as a kid? No way the other two options work....combining with the A.I. is somewhat the perfect ending and Shepard controlling them involves waaaay too much space magic and would be hard to create a narrative from that standpoint. You may retcon the original "Destroy" option a bit, but not to the point to where it would be unbelievable..... Having the Reapers be destroyed, yet having A.I. survive like the geth and EDI could create some un-comfortable moments in terms of folks trusting them and question why they wasn't wiped out with the Reapers while dealing with some other dangerous threat (whatever that may be) while they are rebuilding. That doesn't answer the question I asked. How is your proposed retcon not a cop-out? Put another way, what do you mean when you say "cop-out"?
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 18, 2017 19:25:51 GMT
So the quarians are just a couple of codex entries, whatever happened to them? You'd still need to burn a bunch of dialogue about the krogan. No way the birth rate can't be noticed immediately. Why not just pick choices? You're already canonizing. Might as well be all in, since right now you sound like you want to pay both sets of costs. a) As if Bioware haven't reduced consequences to choices to codex entries before! Even if the game is set immediately or a couple of weeks after ME3, on a planet with no krogans? c) Sure if I made the game and I had infinite resources I would make the most reactive game based on player decisions ever made! But we're talking about BioWare here. We've all seen how they operate and handle choices. I was just looking for clarity about exactly what you were proposing, and what problems you were trying to solve. I got the former, though point B kinda surprised me. You really think a one-planet game would work? I've seen weirder things proposed here, but not many. I guess point C shows that I wasn't clear. It looks to me like you're proposing a hybrid of canonization and savegame import. Doesn't this give you the worst of both worlds?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 18, 2017 20:03:07 GMT
And that is exactly what I was responding to, and I followed the discussion fine. The ME3 ending doesn't matter, because it was shit. Retcon it however you want, soft or hard, who cares. If people want to cry about muh worldstate.... FFS, this is Biower. Pls. If there's one thing that BioWare can do to piss off the majority of the fan base, it's a retcon. Making any of ME3's endings canon is already a bad enough retcon. Completely invalidating that game just to do a direct sequel? What's even the point then? Andromeda was definitely the better decision. It is a soft retcon. You can be in a part of the Milky Way that doesn't know diddly about Shepard, or the name is a distant legend. You take the optimal ending - Destroy, and retcon the death of EDI and the Geth because that bittersweet ending was not what we needed on top of Shepard's end. Shepard dying I expected, but to invalidate his work with Legion, the Geth, and EDI was a shit move by the writers and by now they should know that - it has been a very common complaint re: endings. Therefore, the Milky Way is a disaster area, but everyone survived well enough to rebuild... Is it that big of a retcon, and is it so unpalatable? Edit: absolutely NO save transfers from any previous game. That would be next to impossible. New game, new time, new peeps Edit2: thinking about my proposal, I see lots of issues in this future for Bioware to explore. Lots of Slavers, for one. Speciesism. Fragile alliances. Could have been a better game
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 18, 2017 20:14:42 GMT
It is a soft retcon. You can be in a part of the Milky Way that doesn't know diddly about Shepard, or the name is a distant legend. You take the optimal ending - Destroy, and retcon the death of EDI and the Geth because that bittersweet ending was not what we needed on top of Shepard's end. Shepard dying I expected, but to invalidate his work with Legion, the Geth, and EDI was a shit move by the writers and by now they should know that - it has been a very common complaint re: endings. Therefore, the Milky Way is a disaster area, but everyone survived well enough to rebuild... Is it that big of a retcon, and is it so unpalatable? It shows a lack of respect and regard for their own creative decisions, even if many construe them as bad decisions. Even though I felt it was bad pacing to allow one to resolve the Geth and Quarian issues late in the game, only for the Geth to die anyway shortly thereafter, Destroy could not have been a happy ending. Especially in High EMS Destroy, Shepard survives. Something had to be lost, in all of the endings. It was bittersweet, but given the likely outcome of defeating the Reapers was almost zero, I felt it was largely appropriate even if I didn't like it. Yes. A retcon suggests that your fan base can just bully you into getting whatever it wants, which is not a good precedent to set. That's not to say I wouldn't want to return to the Milky Way at some point, but it will need to be in a way that doesn't invalidate player choice. For now, I'm fine with Andromeda and the potential it holds, whenever BioWare gets back around to it.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 18, 2017 20:26:25 GMT
Maybe Shepard lives, doesn't speak at all to quality of life.
Shepard was supposed to die. He was already dead once, stupidly enough, then survived a suicide mission. His time winning against insurmountable odds was up, even if it meant he died the victor. A modern John Henry, if you will.
You are going on about artistic integrity. That is not something I am willing to engage in.
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Post by clips7 on Aug 18, 2017 20:55:20 GMT
I think they could get around the Destroy ending. They really only ever showed the Reapers being destroyed and even with the Catalyst stating that ALL A.I. would be destroyed with this option, a few writing adjustments can make it seem like it was lying....which isn't really farther from the truth...can you really trust what the Catalyst stated? When you have the option to shoot it, it goes from an innocent speaking child to a rogue alien creature....who's to say that it's image was to work on Shepards emotions through him/her seeing it as a kid? No way the other two options work....combining with the A.I. is somewhat the perfect ending and Shepard controlling them involves waaaay too much space magic and would be hard to create a narrative from that standpoint. You may retcon the original "Destroy" option a bit, but not to the point to where it would be unbelievable..... Having the Reapers be destroyed, yet having A.I. survive like the geth and EDI could create some un-comfortable moments in terms of folks trusting them and question why they wasn't wiped out with the Reapers while dealing with some other dangerous threat (whatever that may be) while they are rebuilding. That doesn't answer the question I asked. How is your proposed retcon not a cop-out? Put another way, what do you mean when you say "cop-out"? When i say cop-out. I meant the writers purposely set the story 600 years later so they don't have to address anything related to the Reaper story. It was a way for them to start fresh. You can say that they did at least mention that "something" happened in the Milky Way when they addressed it momentarily in Andromeda, but it still never gave you a definitive answer as to what happened. So rather for them to put a definite conclusion on the Reaper threat by providing an answer as to what happened to Shepard and crew they went into the future where they could say these folks was asleep for over 600 years and they don't have a clue as to what happened with the Reaper threat.....that = cop-out. I understand to a degree tho since there was such a huge fallout over the endings (they never really bothered me tho) but i thought when they was creating the next ME game (now Andromeda) i was hoping they would give some type of absolution to that storyline regardless of how the fans felt, because ultimately, it's their story to tell.....
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Post by Cyberstrike on Aug 18, 2017 21:01:51 GMT
As many likely know, Mass Effect Andromeda had one of the most chaotic development cycles of any game in recent memory: kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428What started off as a "No Man's Sky with better graphics and BioWare story," ended in a game far behind schedule, with many systems not set in stone, and not having enough resources to prepare it for its quickly approaching release date. Top that off with the nonstop memes and negative publicity from the Internet, and Mass Effect Andromeda was doomed to fail, regardless of how fun the game actually was. Had I been the Creative Director on the game, I would have really liked to have seen Gérard Lehiany's concept come to fruition. Montreal just never got a working concept that was ever fun or practical, so Mac Walters was brought in and he completely revamped the entire scope of the game. What we ended up with wasn't terrible, but it would have been amazing had they truly been able to accomplish what No Man's Sky failed to do. 1) I wouldn't have used No Man's Sky as a starting off point, especially after it launched and it was a big old pile of meh. 2) I would have thrown out the MP mode of ME:A, not every game needs a MP mode and honestly I think open world action/RPG type games are better off without a MP. Look at The Witcher 3 Fallout 4, and Horizon Zero Dawn those games may have their faults but they were successful with fans, critics, and money they made, it's extra work and a drain on resources and people who play open world action/RPG style games might not want a crappy MP mode (doesn't matter if co-op or PvP) that generally nobody cares about after a month or two look at games like Rise of the Tomb Raider and Saints Row IV those games have MP modes and NOBODY really likes them and few people are still playing the MP on either game. BioWare got LUCKY with ME3 MP mode, it was dumb luck, they can't replicate it's success in DA:I or with ME:A because it was a fluke. 3) I would have set realistic goals. I would not have said that " ME:A would have 30 planets with different kinds of terrain, animals, and plenty of alien cities, languages, cultures, and societies to explore" because that was and is 100% bullshit with No Man's Sky. I would have been honest. 4) Mac Walters would NOT have been brought in. Not because I hate him or his work, but IMHO I feel ME:A would have been better served PR wise without his baggage and the controversy of the endings to ME3 that both him and Casey Hudson caused. If I was forced to have him on board I would have offered him a consultant's position, much like Gene Roddenberry had to accept for all the movies starting with and after Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Because I feel that Walters has been in the trenches for too long and ME:A was a chance for a fresh new perspective to move the franchise forward. 5) The tone of the game would have been more serious and fun. I just got through binge watching Farscape and I was reminded that while that show has some of the most bat shit crazy episodes of any sci-fi show it also had it's share of very brutal and very dark character based stories. Yes, you could have the hero dreaming he's in Chuck Jones inspired Road Runner cartoon show then the next episode have a brutal 2 part story where his clone is killed and his girlfriend goes into a depression for several episodes. The main quest of finding Meridian would have been very serious and dark but some of the side quests would have been wacky as I could get. 6) I wouldn't have used the Frostbite 3 engine. This engine is said to be a real pain in the ass to use and I get why EA wants every studio that isn't working on a sport game to use it, to save money and maybe see if other companies would want to lenience it (and how many non-EA studios have used it I wonder). I also wouldn't have tried to push the 4K resolution. 7) I would have marketed the more traditional way than the ass backwards way that did. 8) After the game was released I would have checked into the closest mental hospital and/or disappear for year. So I could rest and make sure that no one could bother me.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 18, 2017 21:13:35 GMT
6) I wouldn't have used the Frostbite 3 engine. This engine is said to be a real pain in the ass to use and I get why EA wants every studio that isn't working on a sport game to use it, to save money and maybe see if other companies would want to lenience it (and how many non-EA studios have used it I wonder). I also wouldn't have tried to push the 4K resolution. Just a slight correction. While sports games weren't initially using Frostbite 3, they are now. Most of EA's AAA games use Frostbite 3 and will be for the foreseeable future. I think it was probably a mistake using the engine when BioWare did early on. However, since it now has many of the tools to make a competent open world RPG (as well as benefits from other genres), I think it's going to be an incredible engine in the future. It will have as much, if not more, flexibility as Unreal Engine 4 and CryEngine.
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Post by mannyray on Aug 19, 2017 13:53:39 GMT
I'm to the point seeing all these "Milky Way derp"posts makes me want to see it happen just so I can see the baby rage and death threats saturate the web and then everyone will finally shut up and realize it was a lousy idea to take the series back to the Milky Way. Why would it be a lousy idea? The Milky Way technically is an unresolved issue because of the endings. A group of respectable writers can probably produce something that wipes out the Reaper threat, but keeps favs like the geth and other AI like EDI. Jettison the series some 600 years later is a a bit of a cop out so they don't have to deal with that issue. the fact you see using such a copout as a good thing leads me to believe we'll have to just agree to disagree. if you want a fuller context on why going to the milky way again is a bad idea even after playing the original trilogy just look around this and other threads that touch on that topic. This is coming from a guy who likes this game because decent gameplay can mitigate a mediocre or even bad story (unless you're part of the "I can't use 275 powers at once boo" crowd.) but with a highly personalized ending plus that ending can be one of numerous options that changes the galaxy beyond repair and was designed to be a distinct end, it's the last thing they should do. If they did, the head of that project should be fired. Promptly.
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Post by clips7 on Aug 19, 2017 14:27:12 GMT
Why would it be a lousy idea? The Milky Way technically is an unresolved issue because of the endings. A group of respectable writers can probably produce something that wipes out the Reaper threat, but keeps favs like the geth and other AI like EDI. Jettison the series some 600 years later is a a bit of a cop out so they don't have to deal with that issue. the fact you see using such a copout as a good thing leads me to believe we'll have to just agree to disagree. if you want a fuller context on why going to the milky way again is a bad idea even after playing the original trilogy just look around this and other threads that touch on that topic. This is coming from a guy who likes this game because decent gameplay can mitigate a mediocre or even bad story (unless you're part of the "I can't use 275 powers at once boo" crowd.) but with a highly personalized ending plus that ending can be one of numerous options that changes the galaxy beyond repair and was designed to be a distinct end, it's the last thing they should do. If they did, the head of that project should be fired. Promptly. Haha...no worries...i see your point as well. Going back could very well just make what was bad (the endings) worse. I personally never had an issue with the endings even tho i felt they could have ended with a more traditional ending.....Reapers destroyed with some complications afterwards. A huge opportunity was lost tho, because they was really building the Reapers up to be entities that created all of life at one point and that would have been a very interesting concept to explore, but with ME3, it seemed like towards the end there they just wanted to wrap it up quickly...almost as if they didn't know how they really wanted to end it. So yeah, we can agree to disagree, i just felt that with decent writers a good and interesting story can come from the brutal aftermath of the Reaper story that focus on the struggle of rebuilding afterwards and can eventually lead up to them travelling to Andromeda because of resources being used up and depleted in the Milky Way. Better than saying "naw...we're not gonna touch that ME3 ending...fast-forward this s**t 600 years later"....
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 19, 2017 14:54:24 GMT
Quarians alive, genophage cured? High EMS? The galaxy is so large you wouldn't have to address many of these issues if you didn't want to. You don't have to run into quarians and geth. And the genophage wouldn't noticeably affect krogans for decades, maybe even centuries anyway. If the solution is to run to new unfamiliar parts of the galaxy and avoid the familiar places to avoid addressing variable states of worlds or factions, then what's the difference, really? Fans who want to see quarians would be no better off. Might as well just pick a world state where they're alive and run with it at that point. As for the genophage, its effects would actually be immediate. It wouldn't take them long to figure out that they were tricked and they're still affected. From there, their society would take a downward turn from there. Of course, the drastic changes that would likely happen to their society would probably be watered down into flavored dialogue and perhaps fewer or greater krogan NPC's at hubs depending on which state was picked, assuming that the game doesn't just come with a set outcome from the start.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 19, 2017 14:59:04 GMT
Go with the destroy reapers ending. Simple. The only problem, even if you go with High EMS Destroy, is the Geth and all other synthetics are destroyed. That would upset a sizeable portion of the player base, and would probably lead to severe backlash. I have doubts about how attached fans in general really are to the geth and their difficulty in accepting a Mass Effect game where they're all destroyed. If we basically got a future Milky Way that assumed high EMS destroy and basically got to see a lot of the iconic locales all next-genified with no reaper nonsense in sight, I'd bet that there wouldn't be a whole lot of resistance. I'd also bet that EDI means a lot more to many fans than the entirety of the geth.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 19, 2017 15:33:16 GMT
I have doubts about how attached fans in general really are to the geth and their difficulty in accepting a Mass Effect game where they're all destroyed. If we basically got a future Milky Way that assumed high EMS destroy and basically got to see a lot of the iconic locales all next-genified with no reaper nonsense in sight, I'd bet that there wouldn't be a whole lot of resistance. I'd also bet that EDI means a lot more to many fans than the entirety of the geth. I don't know about that one. I've seen quite a few Geth diehards begging for their return on BSN. Not to mention, all synthetics were destroyed by the Destroy ending, meaning EDI as well. There would be no AI until the MW races were to try and rebuild them. That would mean EDI and the Geth would be gone forever, as it would be impossible to replicate them as they were. Considering they evolved independently from their creators, not to mention the Reaper tech that was also used to further advance them, there would be no way to restore them. I wouldn't be against that reality myself, but I can't say that for most of the Mass Effect player base.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 19, 2017 15:42:54 GMT
Yeah, but we'll get a few diehards begging for the opposite of any design decision.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 19, 2017 17:06:22 GMT
I have doubts about how attached fans in general really are to the geth and their difficulty in accepting a Mass Effect game where they're all destroyed. If we basically got a future Milky Way that assumed high EMS destroy and basically got to see a lot of the iconic locales all next-genified with no reaper nonsense in sight, I'd bet that there wouldn't be a whole lot of resistance. I agree there wouldn't be much resistance about the geth not appearing again. I let the quarians destroy them on Rannoch. Without the reaper interference, the quarians would have destroyed the geth. I never cared for the thing. Its too bad there wasn't an option to throw the platform out the airlock. I'm sure once Joker learns his sister and father are dead, he won't care about the platform being destroyed
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 19, 2017 17:16:14 GMT
I have doubts about how attached fans in general really are to the geth and their difficulty in accepting a Mass Effect game where they're all destroyed. If we basically got a future Milky Way that assumed high EMS destroy and basically got to see a lot of the iconic locales all next-genified with no reaper nonsense in sight, I'd bet that there wouldn't be a whole lot of resistance. I agree there wouldn't be much resistance about the geth not appearing again. I let the quarians destroy them on Rannoch. Without the reaper interference, the quarians would have destroyed the geth. I never cared for the thing. Its too bad there wasn't an option to throw the platform out the airlock. I'm sure once Joker learns his sister and father are dead, he won't care about the platform being destroyed Yeah, the geth were pretty much doomed without the reapers' interference. Just the same, the quarians are a more meaningful faction than the geth overall. If we had to choose between the two to continue the setting with, the quarians are the obvious bet. As for EDI, regardless of what any of us thought about her individually, as a character that's been with us for most of the trilogy, whereas the geth were largely mooks to shoot at, with only one meaningful geth character to be our ally.
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