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Post by alanc9 on Sept 3, 2017 17:46:41 GMT
I think ' working' is a massive overstatement. I mean the roof is caved in, the pipes in the kitchen burst, and the stove is emitting toxic fumes. But hey at least the end table is in one piece. Still way better than Eos... It's the best of the lot, from what I've seen, though Havarl might be better depending on how representative the areas we see are. (It's hard to imagine that the angara couldn't squeeze in 100, 000 people more on Aya, but that would probably be politically impossible.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2017 17:49:16 GMT
Still way better than Eos... It's the best of the lot, from what I've seen, though Havarl might be better depending on how representative the areas we see are. (It's hard to imagine that the angara couldn't squeeze in 100, 000 people more on Aya, but that would probably be politically impossible.) Yeah, I doubt the angara would allow that many people of a group they don't fully trust yet onto what they thought was their planet of origin. It'd be like if 100,000 aliens showed up and wanted to settle on part of Earth. Humans really wouldn't go for it until we knew they really came in peace.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 3, 2017 17:52:00 GMT
In a sense, the narrative of this game does not go to great lengths to not trip over its own massive rhino dick and do a nose dive into underwhelming consequences. In a sense, you're correct. Pretty much. It's a subcase of a more general issue. Once the Eos Vault is activated, does the AI really need any other worlds? OK, Eos is still only marginally inhabitable, but they only need to find space for 100,000 people. maximusarael020: you are confused about the count. 100,000 is the total population of the first four arks and the Nexus (20,000 each). Ah shoot. That's right. Still an accurate assessment of the situation. A small outpost of a few thousand on Kedara does not mean it's habitable for the other 95,000+. It's not a success to the scale in needs to be.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2017 17:52:30 GMT
In a sense, the narrative of this game does not go to great lengths to not trip over its own massive rhino dick and do a nose dive into underwhelming consequences. In a sense, you're correct. Pretty much. It's a subcase of a more general issue. Once the Eos Vault is activated, does the AI really need any other worlds? OK, Eos is still only marginally inhabitable, but they only need to find space for 100,000 people. I'd argue they do, or at least some of them. Veold offers a practically limitless supply of water where Eos while it has some water(not clean water though until later) is still a desert planet so could use more plus we need water for our ships and the Nexus. And Kadara offers valuable minerals that can make Eos a lot more fertile for farming. Really the only colony we don't need is Elaaden but that colony is mostly just a way to bridge relations with the krogan.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 3, 2017 17:53:38 GMT
But not when you consider they need somewhere for the other 350,000 AI members still in stasis... I just don't understand the viewpoint of the detractors here. Do you think the Initiative's goal was to go to Andromeda and set up a few outposts of like 5,000 people? The brought at least 400,000 people with them, guys. Sloane making it work on Kedara is meaningless to the Initiative's goal. Hooray! A small town can exist! Must be habitable for the whole Initiative! With that logic, if I can go camping in Death Valley for a bit, it must be about to comfortably sustain a small town! That's not how things work, guys. 350 000? 400 000? Where do these numbers come from? Wasn't it about 100 000 that went to Andromeda? Each ship has about 20 000. I believe the Nexus has about 20 000. Of course if I add quarian ship, then the number would be about 120 000. Yup, my bad. I always forget 100,000 total, not per Ark. Point still stands. Kedara with a few thousand does not mean that the narrative fails, as another 95,000 or so need somewhere to be.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 3, 2017 17:55:36 GMT
Pretty much. It's a subcase of a more general issue. Once the Eos Vault is activated, does the AI really need any other worlds? OK, Eos is still only marginally inhabitable, but they only need to find space for 100,000 people. maximusarael020 : you are confused about the count. 100,000 is the total population of the first four arks and the Nexus (20,000 each). Ah shoot. That's right. Still an accurate assessment of the situation. A small outpost of a few thousand on Kedara does not mean it's habitable for the other 95,000+. It's not a success to the scale in needs to be. It's difficult to imagine a situation where a planet can support 5,000 people but not 100,000. I suppose you could contrive something -- one tiny fresh water aquifer or some such .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 17:57:49 GMT
Yes, Kadara is the crater on Andromeda's narrative. Kadara is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. They're eating, drinking, living, including people in the outskirts. It has regular trade with other areas and neither the Kett or Angara actively threaten it. Drack and Vetra know about it and I imagine more people connected to the AI knew about it. Kadara is a successful Milker colony. The game ended there. But not when you consider they need somewhere for the other 350,000 AI members still in stasis... IIRC, the Nexus is supposed to be able to house 3M inhabitants once complete (the Citadel had 17M residents). I don't think they needed the outposts for living space so much as for resource acquisition. Having outposts on various worlds gave them access to different kinds of resources. It also helps to spread the risk around a bit, instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 3, 2017 17:58:46 GMT
Pretty much. It's a subcase of a more general issue. Once the Eos Vault is activated, does the AI really need any other worlds? OK, Eos is still only marginally inhabitable, but they only need to find space for 100,000 people. I'd argue they do, or at least some of them. Veold offers a practically limitless supply of water where Eos while it has some water(not clean water though until later) is still a desert planet so could use more plus we need water for our ships and the Nexus. And Kadara offers valuable minerals that can make Eos a lot more fertile for farming. Really the only colony we don't need is Elaaden but that colony is mostly just a way to bridge relations with the krogan. True, but these are nice-to-have things, not survival things. It's not incoherent, but it makes Ryder's work, except for stopping the Archon, even less consequential than it feels in-game.
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Post by bossattack on Sept 3, 2017 18:12:41 GMT
Hey, stop stealing my lines.
Yes, it makes no GOD DAMN sense. And, people trying to explain it away are simply failing to see the bigger picture. YES, the Nexus did know about Kadara especially since when we first arrive there both Vetra and Drack state they have their own business they need to attend to. Thus, this implies that they've been to the port before. And, Kesh, another Initiative senior member, is in constant contact with the Krogan who have dealings on Kadara. It's a MASSIVE plot hole. Also, people here are overplaying the condition on Kadara. The fact of the matter is that Kadara is a relatively safe and stable port that provides shelter, food, and water to all of its inhabitants. Additionally, even individuals exiled from the port are able to survive out in the badlands without serious issue. This completely undercuts the idea that humanity and the Milker species were in some super dire situation prior to Ryder's arrival. Eos, upon Ryder turning on the terraforming machine, is still described as harsh but capable of living in and establishing an outpost. The fact that the Nexus considered Eos a success despite its harsh condition including deadly radiation just goes to show you how good a place like Kadara is.
Kadara is when the game's narrative completely collapses in on itself and it never recovers after it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 18:13:19 GMT
I'd argue they do, or at least some of them. Veold offers a practically limitless supply of water where Eos while it has some water(not clean water though until later) is still a desert planet so could use more plus we need water for our ships and the Nexus. And Kadara offers valuable minerals that can make Eos a lot more fertile for farming. Really the only colony we don't need is Elaaden but that colony is mostly just a way to bridge relations with the krogan. True, but these are nice-to-have things, not survival things. It's not incoherent, but it makes Ryder's work, except for stopping the Archon, even less consequential than it feels in-game. Water and fertile soil for farming aren't survival things?
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Post by Qolx on Sept 3, 2017 18:36:00 GMT
Yes, Kadara is the crater on Andromeda's narrative. Kadara is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. They're eating, drinking, living, including people in the outskirts. It has regular trade with other areas and neither the Kett or Angara actively threaten it. Drack and Vetra know about it and I imagine more people connected to the AI knew about it. Kadara is a successful Milker colony. The game ended there. Ah. I see there is a minor misunderstanding. Allow me to put it in words you will more easily understand. Pay more attention. Let's indeed pay more attention. The Citadel and Omega are space stations with technology capable of sustaining millions of inhabitants. Billions of people live on Earth, Sur'Kesh, Thessia, Palaven; even radioactive wasteland Tuchanka supports billions. The Quarian Flotilla houses 20 million people in centuries-old ships; the Rayya alone supplies 1/3 of the food the Flotilla consumes. The Flotilla also acquires water, fuel, and minerals from asteroids and other sources. We also know colonial pilot programs rarely go above a 1000 pioneers. We saw colonies like Feros, Proteous, Yamm, etc in different stages of development. Basically, the Milkers have the tech and capacity to establish colonies. The Kadarans are doing exactly that. They are autonomous and self-sustaining. They trade with the Angara, suggesting an economy and cultural relations. They didn't even need a n Errand Pathfinder to set their little colony. A half-brained Pathfinder would have returned to the Nexus to provide this information. A Nexus run by half-brained people would have begun establishing small colonies based off that information, hell after Eos. But, this is a stupid game developed by stupid people for stupid people therefore it stupidly continues towards its Stu-peak-dity. Everyone read the script and realized that there was a conveniently placed ready-made planet with a convenient master switch that solved all "problems."
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 3, 2017 18:45:54 GMT
Ha! Yeah, the Quarians are the bar to set for success, right. What, with their ships and basically entire civilization on the verge of collapse constantly. They live really sad, meager lives. This is not the goal of the Initiative. The goal is to establish successful and flourishing colonies, not scrape by. Kedara is scraping by, and can't handle the influx of almost 100,000 more people. The goal also wasn't to have everyone go to a new galaxy to chill out on Citadel 2.0. They want a stake in the Cluster. Survival is not living.
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Post by Qolx on Sept 3, 2017 18:52:30 GMT
It's difficult to imagine a situation where a planet can support 5,000 people but not 100,000. I suppose you could contrive something -- one tiny fresh water aquifer or some such . Exactly. It's even more difficult to imagine that several entire planets that were targeted for habitation can't support 100k people or that the colonists can't use their tech to transfer resources between these planets until a min habitation threshold is achieved. Kadara (the ENTIRE planet) alone can probably absorb 20k colonists spread out over its surface. The colonists can then trade whatever minerals are on Kadara for water and/or use their tech to filter water. True, but these are nice-to-have things, not survival things. It's not incoherent, but it makes Ryder's work, except for stopping the Archon, even less consequential than it feels in-game. Water and fertile soil for farming aren't survival things? Not when there's a gigantic space station called the Nexus that can support 1M people. The Milkers just need to bring in the resources they need and go from there. Which was exactly their plan, anyways, until they caught a severe case of stupidity.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2017 18:53:35 GMT
I'd argue they do, or at least some of them. Veold offers a practically limitless supply of water where Eos while it has some water(not clean water though until later) is still a desert planet so could use more plus we need water for our ships and the Nexus. And Kadara offers valuable minerals that can make Eos a lot more fertile for farming. Really the only colony we don't need is Elaaden but that colony is mostly just a way to bridge relations with the krogan. True, but these are nice-to-have things, not survival things. It's not incoherent, but it makes Ryder's work, except for stopping the Archon, even less consequential than it feels in-game. I disagree that they aren't survival things, but I do agree that the outposts on Veold and Kadara don't really need to be colonies but instead support the colony on Eos with water and fertile soil so Eos can take care of the colonists. Sort of like the situation on Havarl where it is just the science team doing things like learning how to maximize crop yields by studying the life there. That said the outpost on Kadara being a colony could be argued as necessary for the exiles who had second thoughts about leaving the Nexus since otherwise they have nowhere really to live.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2017 18:57:02 GMT
Ha! Yeah, the Quarians are the bar to set for success, right. What, with their ships and basically entire civilization on the verge of collapse constantly. They live really sad, meager lives. This is not the goal of the Initiative. The goal is to establish successful and flourishing colonies, not scrape by. Kedara is scraping by, and can't handle the influx of almost 100,000 more people. The goal also wasn't to have everyone go to a new galaxy to chill out on Citadel 2.0. They want a stake in the Cluster. Survival is not living. And Omega and Tuchanka as successes as well? The initiatives goal was to be above the barely surviving planets or nomads. Kadara was just not a suitable planet.
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Post by Qolx on Sept 3, 2017 19:10:10 GMT
smilesja Omega had the tech and resources to sustain millions of inhabitants of different species. No government, just different species making it happen via trade, grit, etc. Tuchanka had a carrying capacity of 2 billion people; Krogan were able to adapt to its harsh environment and survive. The Quarians managed to squeeze out 300 years (!!!) out of their Flotilla, again they had the tech and knowledge to survive. These different species had the tech, knowledge, and willingness to keep millions and billions alive for centuries in harsh conditions. So did the Kadarans. That is the point. The AI can't even manage 10k people for a few months apparently. They can't even manage to carry through with their own plan. You gotta crawl before you walk but the AI can only bawl. :sob:
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 3, 2017 19:29:41 GMT
smilesja Omega had the tech and resources to sustain millions of inhabitants of different species. No government, just different species making it happen via trade, grit, etc. Tuchanka had a carrying capacity of 2 billion people; Krogan were able to adapt to its harsh environment and survive. The Quarians managed to squeeze out 300 years (!!!) out of their Flotilla, again they had the tech and knowledge to survive. These different species had the tech, knowledge, and willingness to keep millions and billions alive for centuries in harsh conditions. So did the Kadarans. That is the point. The AI can't even manage 10k people for a few months apparently. They can't even manage to carry through with their own plan. You gotta crawl before you walk but the AI can only bawl. :sob: Omega had a built infrastructure when it was found. Easy to adopt, and is it ever stated it's self-sustaining? I'm pretty sure they get shipments of stuff from other planets, yes? As for Tuchanka, sure the Krogan can survive there. They aren't all that happy, though. It's all about sustainability and population concentration. The planets in Andromeda can sustain a population, but it'd have to be very spread out. Again, they don't want to survive or "squeeze out", they want to thrive.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2017 19:40:12 GMT
smilesja Omega had the tech and resources to sustain millions of inhabitants of different species. No government, just different species making it happen via trade, grit, etc. Tuchanka had a carrying capacity of 2 billion people; Krogan were able to adapt to its harsh environment and survive. The Quarians managed to squeeze out 300 years (!!!) out of their Flotilla, again they had the tech and knowledge to survive. These different species had the tech, knowledge, and willingness to keep millions and billions alive for centuries in harsh conditions. So did the Kadarans. That is the point. The AI can't even manage 10k people for a few months apparently. They can't even manage to carry through with their own plan. You gotta crawl before you walk but the AI can only bawl. :sob: Again they don't want to be barely surviving for hundreds of years, they want to have places where they can potentially thrive.
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Post by haolyn on Sept 3, 2017 19:48:34 GMT
Why didn't any of the leaders on the Nexus mention this to Ryder at the beginning of the game? Once Ryder becomes Pathfinder, the narrative makes it seem like there hasn't been any place discovered to where humans and other MW species can live, thus giving more weight to the Ryder and the importance of Pathfinders. However, that is all discredited because there is ALREADY a functioning outpost/colony on Kadara. Yes, it is full of outlaws, but that isn't the point. The point is that there is already an established place where humans and other MW species can live. In a sense, the narrative contradicts itself. they moved into an angaran settlement? they didn't establish shit. it's the angaran water filtration system that enables them to live there
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Post by haolyn on Sept 3, 2017 19:55:25 GMT
Yes, Kadara is the crater on Andromeda's narrative. Kadara is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. They're eating, drinking, living, including people in the outskirts. It has regular trade with other areas and neither the Kett or Angara actively threaten it. Drack and Vetra know about it and I imagine more people connected to the AI knew about it. Kadara is a successful Milker colony. The game ended there. uhh what? people are literally languishing in the slums and badlands dying of food poisoning, drug addiction or cannibals, the kett are establishing another foothold on the planet and the roekaar are murdering people unchecked. all before ryder gets there also drack is not part of the initiative and it's in vetra's own self interest to keep her smuggling contacts a secret try again
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Post by Qolx on Sept 3, 2017 19:58:15 GMT
smilesja Omega had the tech and resources to sustain millions of inhabitants of different species. No government, just different species making it happen via trade, grit, etc. Tuchanka had a carrying capacity of 2 billion people; Krogan were able to adapt to its harsh environment and survive. The Quarians managed to squeeze out 300 years (!!!) out of their Flotilla, again they had the tech and knowledge to survive. These different species had the tech, knowledge, and willingness to keep millions and billions alive for centuries in harsh conditions. So did the Kadarans. That is the point. The AI can't even manage 10k people for a few months apparently. They can't even manage to carry through with their own plan. You gotta crawl before you walk but the AI can only bawl. :sob: Again they don't want to be barely surviving for hundreds of years, they want to have places where they can potentially thrive. Tough luck, then, because none of those planets are "thrivable" without the conveniently placed vault master switch. What were they going to do? Sit on their thumbs until god SAM the writers pulled it out of their asses? We had and have human populations that survive(d) in harsh conditions. They experienced famines, plagues, natural disasters, crop failures, <$2/day, and other calamities. Many of them survived and thrived.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2017 20:01:01 GMT
Again they don't want to be barely surviving for hundreds of years, they want to have places where they can potentially thrive. Tough luck, then, because none of those planets are "thrivable" without the conveniently placed vault master switch. What were they going to do? Sit on their thumbs until god SAM the writers pulled it out of their asses? We had and have human populations that survive(d) in harsh conditions. They experienced famines, plagues, natural disasters, crop failures, <$2/day, and other calamities. Many of them survived and thrived. What's happening in Kadara isn't substainable. Poisonous gas, a barely functioning water filter and a dictator who rules by might. Besides I think it's implied that a lot or the planets problems was because of the vaults.
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Post by haolyn on Sept 3, 2017 20:02:53 GMT
Again they don't want to be barely surviving for hundreds of years, they want to have places where they can potentially thrive. Tough luck, then, because none of those planets are "thrivable" without the conveniently placed vault master switch. What were they going to do? Sit on their thumbs until god SAM the writers pulled it out of their asses? We had and have human populations that survive(d) in harsh conditions. They experienced famines, plagues, natural disasters, crop failures, <$2/day, and other calamities. Many of them survived and thrived. yeah the writers conveniently placed a vault on each world for ryder to use to solve the Big Problem, just like they placed a prothean beacon on eden prime for shepard to use and solve the Big Problem. it's a video game. they could have been more creative and less repetitive with the vault-outpost-architect formula on each planet but overall the story structure doesn't differ much from the OT
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Post by Qolx on Sept 3, 2017 20:04:55 GMT
Why didn't any of the leaders on the Nexus mention this to Ryder at the beginning of the game? Once Ryder becomes Pathfinder, the narrative makes it seem like there hasn't been any place discovered to where humans and other MW species can live, thus giving more weight to the Ryder and the importance of Pathfinders. However, that is all discredited because there is ALREADY a functioning outpost/colony on Kadara. Yes, it is full of outlaws, but that isn't the point. The point is that there is already an established place where humans and other MW species can live. In a sense, the narrative contradicts itself. they moved into an angaran settlement? they didn't establish shit. it's the angaran water filtration system that enables them to live there That means they were able to adapt alien technology by themselves. They're doing much better than any other Milker group. Yes, Kadara is the crater on Andromeda's narrative. Kadara is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. They're eating, drinking, living, including people in the outskirts. It has regular trade with other areas and neither the Kett or Angara actively threaten it. Drack and Vetra know about it and I imagine more people connected to the AI knew about it. Kadara is a successful Milker colony. The game ended there. uhh what? people are literally languishing in the slums and badlands dying of food poisoning, drug addiction or cannibals, the kett are establishing another foothold on the planet and the roekaar are murdering people unchecked. all before ryder gets there also drack is not part of the initiative and it's in vetra's own self interest to keep her smuggling contacts a secret try again Correct! This is stuff they experienced in the MW (sans cannibalism I suppose) and can handle and are handling despite no external support. Drack and Vetra keep in contact with the AI. Let's not even get into how ridiculous it is that smuggling exists in a galaxy with no central authority. Kadara is doing about as well as expected.
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Post by melbella on Sept 3, 2017 20:07:08 GMT
Yes, Kadara is the crater on Andromeda's narrative. Kadara is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. They're eating, drinking, living, including people in the outskirts. It has regular trade with other areas and neither the Kett or Angara actively threaten it. Drack and Vetra know about it and I imagine more people connected to the AI knew about it. Kadara is a successful Milker colony. The game ended there. uhh what? people are literally languishing in the slums and badlands dying of food poisoning, drug addiction or cannibals, the kett are establishing another foothold on the planet and the roekaar are murdering people unchecked. all before ryder gets there also drack is not part of the initiative and it's in vetra's own self interest to keep her smuggling contacts a secret try again And you have Spender, trouble-maker du jour, playing both sides against the middle. Is Nexus leadership (meaning Tann + Addison) incompetent? Yes. But they were being played as well.
I'd like to know where the Nexus is getting resources for 1M+ people to live on the station considering, at the end of Nexus Uprising, they were rationing food. You need more people to generate more resources, but more people need more food, more air, more living space before they can do that. None of which was available on the Nexus. Scouting parties came back empty-handed (or not at all) with only bad news of uninhabitable planets destroyed by the Scourge. The fact they made two attempts at colonizing Eos despite the deadly radiation tells you how desperate they were for resources.
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