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Post by colfoley on Nov 17, 2017 3:46:49 GMT
One of the problems I have with Andromeda is how much of the game is buried behind choices so if you only play a game I would guess you could easily be missing over half of the interesting parts of a BioWare game. There is unique dialogue for mission dialogue locked behind having the right characters in your party or having a lot of dialogue locked behind different dialogue choices which again a lot of people will not see (which is why even though the P/R system was bipolar they only needed half as many choices). Andromeda felt to me that they wanted to incorporate everything people said they wanted to see in a BioWare game and proved to be an expensive gamble to find out that people don't know what they want. I should go back again and really time myself with a Mass Effect 1 game and show that one of the reasons why the dialogue for that game was as good as it was primarily due to the game being short and they took shortcuts as well. People kept talking about how great Mass Effect 1 was because of "open world", how Mass Effect 2 was because of characters, how great Mass Effect 3 was because of the combat, wanting a skill system that was completely open, a vehicle to explore with, the game must be 20+ hours long, things of that nature. So when trying to do all that they lost track of why people really buy their games. wait: choices mattered too much in Andromeda?
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Post by river82 on Nov 17, 2017 3:52:21 GMT
Andromeda felt to me that they wanted to incorporate everything people said they wanted to see in a BioWare game and proved to be an expensive gamble to find out that people don't know what they want. Heh After DA:2 - WTF Bioware, a single city? Reused dungeons? We want a larger scale! Double the size! Quadruple the size! Octuple the size! After DA:I and ME:A - We take it back Bioware, we take it back! We didn't mean it, just stop!
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Post by colfoley on Nov 17, 2017 3:56:04 GMT
Andromeda felt to me that they wanted to incorporate everything people said they wanted to see in a BioWare game and proved to be an expensive gamble to find out that people don't know what they want. Heh After DA:2 - WTF Bioware, a single city? Reused dungeons? We want a larger scale! Double the size! Quadruple the size! Octuple the size! After DA:I and ME:A - We take it back Bioware, we take it back! We didn't mean it, just stop!I'm a weirdo who loves the corridor crawls and the 'open world'
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Post by Sharable Horizon on Nov 17, 2017 4:19:06 GMT
Having thought about it, ME2 is the perfect sized game for me. For any future ME projects I'd like to see 2 - 3 expansive hubs (where most of the squadmate missions take place) that change depending on your progress and choices throughout the game. A few random planets with small missions attached (think the size of DAI's fallow mire maximum) and a couple of really special "corridor missions" for your main story beats. All told the game should take 50 - 80 hours tops, so it feels big but has no padding that breaks up the flow of the story.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 17, 2017 4:44:12 GMT
Oh good grief...... If you're going to insult someone at least use proper grammar. How is this comment the dumbEST shit you've ever seen? There where clearly mistakes with Andromeda that needed to be addressed, but abandoning the whole team was asinine. EA is clearly putting all its eggs into one basket "Anthem". If that game fails, it will be a long time if ever before we see DA4 or another Mass Effect game. Bioware might even be on the chopping block at that point. Given the luke warm reception to Destiny 2, it wouldn't surprise me if Anthem flops. Sorry for the improper grammar had just woken up and didn't reread what I wrote. As long as the point can be understood a typo isn't a huge deal. On to the point EA gains NOTHING by sabotaging their developers. They also didn't "abandon" the whole team they ripped apart the studio and shuffled people into other projects. Honestly fairly deserved since the lowly members at the studio were not the issue but rather the upper and middle management. Honestly EA isn't making many great decisions right now but putting MEA to the side and focusing on anthem wasn't one of them. Yeah sure MEA could have had DLC but its likely EA didn't think that was going to net them enough money to justify going that route. EA made the right moves as a company with MEA. They don't care about our feelings only cold hard cash. That's why it blows my mind when someone says EA intentionally hurt a game they had invested money into. Just doesn't make any sense. I'm not trying to imply that EA is sabotaging Mass Effect, they just clearly care way more about Anthem and Battlefront 2. This is part of my problem with EA, they don't actually give a shit about what games they make, they care about money that's it. Sure I know if you're a publisher money is kind of important. But when you have as much money as EA does, making quality games, and pleasing fans should be top priority.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 17, 2017 4:45:29 GMT
One of the problems I have with Andromeda is how much of the game is buried behind choices so if you only play a game I would guess you could easily be missing over half of the interesting parts of a BioWare game. There is unique dialogue for mission dialogue locked behind having the right characters in your party or having a lot of dialogue locked behind different dialogue choices which again a lot of people will not see (which is why even though the P/R system was bipolar they only needed half as many choices). Andromeda felt to me that they wanted to incorporate everything people said they wanted to see in a BioWare game and proved to be an expensive gamble to find out that people don't know what they want. I should go back again and really time myself with a Mass Effect 1 game and show that one of the reasons why the dialogue for that game was as good as it was primarily due to the game being short and they took shortcuts as well. People kept talking about how great Mass Effect 1 was because of "open world", how Mass Effect 2 was because of characters, how great Mass Effect 3 was because of the combat, wanting a skill system that was completely open, a vehicle to explore with, the game must be 20+ hours long, things of that nature. So when trying to do all that they lost track of why people really buy their games. wait: choices mattered too much in Andromeda? Anyone who feels that way just doesn't like story driven RPG's.
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Post by LogicGunn on Nov 17, 2017 5:04:26 GMT
Well, maybe this one won't go nuclear. *crosses fingers, toes, arms and legs* Well, despite differing views, we're all friends here, aren't we? I wouldn't be surprised if there are tweets teasing about another Mass Effect game long before it is officially announced, like they do with all their games. To be honest, they teased MEA far too early.If they go back to Mass Effect I hope they share it only when it's mostly done. I think so too. They seemed to release too much concept info too early, long before it was realised at least. The early idea of MEA wasn't quite the same as the reality of it, and that's true of all games, but MEA was just laid bare too soon, and the reality of the game was good, but it wasn't what I think people expected. In contrast to the release of Fallout 4 which I think was handled very well: teasers late in development, info really close to release, they relied on the excitement of players just knowing it was in development to keep interest. I love to get all the view points, I just hope we can all dial down the hostility for the next Bioware releases.
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Post by smilesja on Nov 17, 2017 5:27:41 GMT
I love to get all the view points, I just hope we can all dial down the hostility for the next Bioware releases.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 17, 2017 5:30:07 GMT
One of the problems I have with Andromeda is how much of the game is buried behind choices so if you only play a game I would guess you could easily be missing over half of the interesting parts of a BioWare game. There is unique dialogue for mission dialogue locked behind having the right characters in your party or having a lot of dialogue locked behind different dialogue choices which again a lot of people will not see (which is why even though the P/R system was bipolar they only needed half as many choices). Andromeda felt to me that they wanted to incorporate everything people said they wanted to see in a BioWare game and proved to be an expensive gamble to find out that people don't know what they want. I should go back again and really time myself with a Mass Effect 1 game and show that one of the reasons why the dialogue for that game was as good as it was primarily due to the game being short and they took shortcuts as well. People kept talking about how great Mass Effect 1 was because of "open world", how Mass Effect 2 was because of characters, how great Mass Effect 3 was because of the combat, wanting a skill system that was completely open, a vehicle to explore with, the game must be 20+ hours long, things of that nature. So when trying to do all that they lost track of why people really buy their games. wait: choices mattered too much in Andromeda? Its not that they mattered too much, but being locked completely out of it if you miss the one trigger for it. Using a more specific example on Eos when you first meet Drack there is a bunch of dialogue with him that you only see if you have Vetra in your party. Instead of just having it at that one location, move it so you can overhear it back on the Tempest when they are "catching up". They could get creative with how they present some of the dialogue too, such has it being in Drack's room/kitchen with the door closed so you overhear it, but don't interact with it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 17, 2017 7:16:52 GMT
wait: choices mattered too much in Andromeda? Its not that they mattered too much, but being locked completely out of it if you miss the one trigger for it. Using a more specific example on Eos when you first meet Drack there is a bunch of dialogue with him that you only see if you have Vetra in your party. Instead of just having it at that one location, move it so you can overhear it back on the Tempest when they are "catching up". They could get creative with how they present some of the dialogue too, such has it being in Drack's room/kitchen with the door closed so you overhear it, but don't interact with it. I'm pretty sure other Bio games had instances like this where unique dialogue triggered for characters that would never be repeated. Like, Fenris won't call Bethany a viper in their midst unless she's present during his introductory quest, and won't repeat that line later. I'm not sure how this would work though. Like, if Vetra wasn't on Eos for that one instance, then it would trigger a unique sequence aboard the ship? Seems to me like they'd just simplify this and have their catchup session happen regardless.
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Post by mannyray on Nov 17, 2017 9:10:43 GMT
I think of all criticisms you can hurl at Bioware, Lazy isn’t one of them. Hapless? Maybe. Directionless? Based on the end result after years and overinvesting in false starts like generated worlds, yes. I'll say that Bioware busted their butts, but had very little in good leadership for this title across the board.
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Post by mannyray on Nov 17, 2017 9:14:57 GMT
Yeah sorry but I blame EA. It seems like they didn't really want Andromeda to succeed. I think with some more experience and some help from the A team, MEA 2 could have been a master piece. But instead the wanted to flush the whole team away, scrap the DLC and start from scratch. I can't help but feel like EA over reacted to internet hate at release. Considering how bad the development process was for Andromeda I think it turned out fine. Okay I have to single you out here because that is legit the dumb shit I've ever seen. Why in the world would EA want ANY of their games to fail. Please tell me how a human being can reach that conclusion. EA didn't do shit wrong when it came to MEA besides not be vigilant enough during development. Almost everything you're saying EA did wrong is what they did right. You dont let your employees that made a bad product continue to do so. You're whiteknighting for EA now, and they do not deserve any slack here any more than the the weak directionless leadership that wasted five years that culminated in an exceedingly average game with a weak story. EA panicked. With all this game's flaws they still overreacted by pulling the plug on dlc or even a larger investment in multiplayer content. Just because the angry social cripples feel vindication at this game going on life support within six months when far worse games fiscally and artistically in the industry got more doesn't mean EA didn't fuck up. They did. Warts all with ME:A they left some money on the table.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 17, 2017 15:00:27 GMT
Why does anyone need PR speak ultimately when they say "Game X is like Game Y?" To generate hype by comparing things to what is popular. That is what the "were looking at Skyrim for inspiration" type of lines are in the end. People tend to take it literally though. As for not getting me....sorry? I am pretty clear overall as to what I am saying here as far as I can tell. So, just let quote what I'm hearing. Next post... Yah, thanks dude. That's as clear as mud. Also, No Man's Sky wasn't popular. Popular to make fun of, but not popular as a fun game. I legitimately have no idea what you are getting at here.
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Post by Gya on Nov 17, 2017 17:18:52 GMT
OP, you should try Dark Souls 3. The combat is smooth and fast, an absolute joy. The story is hidden in item descriptions, but it's there, and there are some genuinely tragic moments.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 17, 2017 19:09:19 GMT
Okay I have to single you out here because that is legit the dumb shit I've ever seen. Why in the world would EA want ANY of their games to fail. Please tell me how a human being can reach that conclusion. EA didn't do shit wrong when it came to MEA besides not be vigilant enough during development. Almost everything you're saying EA did wrong is what they did right. You dont let your employees that made a bad product continue to do so. You're whiteknighting for EA now, and they do not deserve any slack here any more than the the weak directionless leadership that wasted five years that culminated in an exceedingly average game with a weak story. EA panicked. With all this game's flaws they still overreacted by pulling the plug on dlc or even a larger investment in multiplayer content. Just because the angry social cripples feel vindication at this game going on life support within six months when far worse games fiscally and artistically in the industry got more doesn't mean EA didn't fuck up. They did. Warts all with ME:A they left some money on the table. This is awfully confused. It's not "whiteknighting for EA" to say that EA not wanting ME:A to succeed is a bit silly. EA not wanting ME:A to succeed is self-destructive. They were funding the game, and they would get the profits from it. Success for the game means more money for EA. An ME:A DLC which actually sold well would be even more money for EA. They didn't think the DLC would sell, so they didn't make any. If you like, we could say that that EA mismanaged ME:A's creation; or, rather, permitted Bio Montreal to mismanage it. (In retrospect, No Man's Sky was a stupid vision to be inspired by.) But that's not an argument for more support for the game as it was actually launched. If you want to make an argument that EA is leaving money on the table, you'll need actual numbers. Their numbers say it won't work. What numbers do you have?
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 17, 2017 19:20:47 GMT
Why does anyone need PR speak ultimately when they say "Game X is like Game Y?" To generate hype by comparing things to what is popular. That is what the "were looking at Skyrim for inspiration" type of lines are in the end. It was Darrah coming out and saying Skyrim changed the expectation for role playing games and the expectation of exploration especially, and that open world games will be dominant going forward. That isn't PR speak, that's looking at the reasoning behind a pretty conscious design decision. And yet they have not made a proper Open World game yet. In fact the design is closer to just being big-budgeted versions of Baldur's Gate. Open-world is the seamless kind of design you would expect from Skyrim, or Fallout, or The Witcher 3. Inquisition is far from that. It's just open, inter-connected stages. Id rather BioWare continue that because it's at least a very BioWare thing to do. Anthem looks to be breaking that trend heavily though. Point being, regardless of what Darrah said, what we got is wholly different from that "expectation of exploration." If anything it influenced them poorly by adding more of the "filler" into the mix than they ever did before. The same fate befell The Witcher 3, but it hid it a lot better with a lot more cut-scenes.
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Post by abaris on Nov 17, 2017 20:16:20 GMT
Point being, regardless of what Darrah said, what we got is wholly different from that "expectation of exploration." To explore something, there has to be something to explore first. As a veteran of both Bethesda and Bioware, I can savely say, there's hardly any other company making exploring that much fun. Bethesda also creates the illusion of the created worlds being alive and changing. Yet they suck at storytelling. I've yet to find any Bethesda game that I play for it's story. With Bioware it's the other way round. They utterly suck at creating - for lack of a better word - open spaces. As you said, they're not seamless as they are with Beth games, just interconnected huge maps. With DAI it was still fun to explore what they created. With MEA there was nothing besides generic remnant ruins and dropped in trash mobs. But up until MEA they told stories, side stories and companion stories. With MEA they lost that knack also. The story is utterly meh. As are the companions, as are the forks. They are virtually non existent, which makes replaying the game so dull. There's nothing to do entirely different than you did the first time round. Nothing new to discover, nothing to explore in these vast generic environments.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 17, 2017 20:25:31 GMT
Andromeda felt to me that they wanted to incorporate everything people said they wanted to see in a BioWare game and proved to be an expensive gamble to find out that people don't know what they want. Heh After DA:2 - WTF Bioware, a single city? Reused dungeons? We want a larger scale! Double the size! Quadruple the size! Octuple the size! After DA:I and ME:A - We take it back Bioware, we take it back! We didn't mean it, just stop!I actually think they had the right idea with DAI, at least. The problem is they made the zones TOO big. Or rather, didn't have enough content to fill zones the space they had (except for constantly respawning bears, I guess)
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Post by mannyray on Nov 17, 2017 23:23:48 GMT
You're whiteknighting for EA now, and they do not deserve any slack here any more than the the weak directionless leadership that wasted five years that culminated in an exceedingly average game with a weak story. EA panicked. With all this game's flaws they still overreacted by pulling the plug on dlc or even a larger investment in multiplayer content. Just because the angry social cripples feel vindication at this game going on life support within six months when far worse games fiscally and artistically in the industry got more doesn't mean EA didn't fuck up. They did. Warts all with ME:A they left some money on the table. This is awfully confused. It's not "whiteknighting for EA" to say that EA not wanting ME:A to succeed is a bit silly. EA not wanting ME:A to succeed is self-destructive. They were funding the game, and they would get the profits from it. Success for the game means more money for EA. An ME:A DLC which actually sold well would be even more money for EA. They didn't think the DLC would sell, so they didn't make any. If you like, we could say that that EA mismanaged ME:A's creation; or, rather, permitted Bio Montreal to mismanage it. (In retrospect, No Man's Sky was a stupid vision to be inspired by.) But that's not an argument for more support for the game as it was actually launched. If you want to make an argument that EA is leaving money on the table, you'll need actual numbers. Their numbers say it won't work. What numbers do you have? what numbers did EA produce? I stated my case and there's precedent in the current gaming market.
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Post by goishen on Nov 18, 2017 0:14:08 GMT
Let me be as clear as I can. You first stated... a lot of that is ultimately PR speak Then I asked you, who's PR speak? I don't remember them hiring a PR firm to handle this shit. Or are you saying that anybody can do PR? Then you stated... Why does anyone need PR speak Can you not see the logical stumbling block here? Or you being obtuse for the simple reason of being obtuse? Because I'm thinking it's the latter. I think you're playing a Trump on us, and hoping that no one will notice. You're too bright not to get this. Fuck, my slow uncle gets this.
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Post by heathenoxman on Nov 18, 2017 0:19:50 GMT
OP, you should try Dark Souls 3. The combat is smooth and fast, an absolute joy. The story is hidden in item descriptions, but it's there, and there are some genuinely tragic moments. I'm stupid and untalented. DS3 just gave me a headache.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 18, 2017 0:38:22 GMT
Point being, regardless of what Darrah said, what we got is wholly different from that "expectation of exploration." To explore something, there has to be something to explore first. As a veteran of both Bethesda and Bioware, I can savely say, there's hardly any other company making exploring that much fun. Okay, you said "hardly any," so no slam here. Just adding CDPR and Guerilla Games for completeness. So then it didn't utterly suck, right? I mean, I agree DAI's open-ish worlds don't hold a candle to Bethesda or GG, but I still had hella fun exploring the heck out of the in-bounds and out-of-bounds areas. Likewise with MEA. Some planets definitely got short-changed (Kadara), but I really enjoyed dune buggying over Elaaden, with the "sand worms" and titanic alien derelict ship.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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linksocarina
Teaching Mode Activated
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August 2016
linksocarina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 18, 2017 1:30:36 GMT
Let me be as clear as I can. You first stated... a lot of that is ultimately PR speak Then I asked you, who's PR speak? I don't remember them hiring a PR firm to handle this shit. Or are you saying that anybody can do PR? Then you stated... Why does anyone need PR speak Can you not see the logical stumbling block here? Or you being obtuse for the simple reason of being obtuse? Because I'm thinking it's the latter. I think you're playing a Trump on us, and hoping that no one will notice. You're too bright not to get this. Fuck, my slow uncle gets this. I was referring to the devs themselves speaking in interviews and such regarding the games. That was all their PR speak. Nothing to do with firms and the like. The second quote was about why the devs do it, why they compare their games to other games...so people know what they are talking about. It's not a stumbling block at all, but a gross misunderstanding on your part of what was said. Sorry if it wasn't clear on my end.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,974 Likes: 21,012
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sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,974
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 18, 2017 2:13:51 GMT
Heh After DA:2 - WTF Bioware, a single city? Reused dungeons? We want a larger scale! Double the size! Quadruple the size! Octuple the size! After DA:I and ME:A - We take it back Bioware, we take it back! We didn't mean it, just stop!I'm a weirdo who loves the corridor crawls and the 'open world' Same her as long as the story and characters are good I'm happy enough with it.
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Feb 25, 2021 11:56:07 GMT
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Andrew Lucas
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Sept 11, 2016 18:33:18 GMT
September 2016
andrewlucas
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 18, 2017 16:09:31 GMT
Yeah, BioWare listened to some criticism and changed stuff, but they currently aren't talented enough to, you know, make this new "stuff" actually good. That's why MEA was critically panned, sold bollocks, studio axed, had no DLC nor a sequel announced.
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