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Post by Element Zero on Dec 1, 2017 6:54:50 GMT
We're all members of a tiny, niche community. We have 9225 members, at the time of this post; and naturally fewer are active at any given time. Whatever your reasons for joining our group, I ask you to hear me out for a few paragraphs.
Mass Effect: Andromeda proved to be a pretty divisive game. Opinions range from it being an abomination to it being the best game of the series. Being opinions, each of the entire gamut is valid. We've been debating our opinions on its strengths and weaknesses for over 8 months. This particular forum has become a war zone between the "Apologists" and the "Haters". Both of those labels are shortsighted, unimaginative and unfair. It's perfectly reasonable that some can hate this game. It's also completely reasonable that others will love it.
What isn't all that reasonable is the pervasive failure to listen amongst our community. The arguments --those that go way beyond the expected debates of an online community- are no longer even limited to MEA. I see pervasive rude behavior all around. I see name-calling. I see passive aggressive posting. Most of all, I see a failure to listen to others and respectfully acknowledge that opinions differing from our own are valid. I've read valid posts on each side of every argument. If you think your opinion is the only correct opinion, take a moment and ponder how such a narrow approach would serve you in the real world.
I ask each of us-- the BSN is an us-- Is it time to lay down arms, before the constant bickering becomes the permanent status quo of our BSN community? Can YOU try to be more respectful, less easily provoked, and more willing to agree to disagree? Only you know why you visit this forum. If it's only to bicker and piss off others, that's sad, but it is your right. I suspect that some have simply fallen into the habit because they feel that they aren't or weren't being heard.
I'm sure this will get a variety of responses. "TL/DR". "Who the hell is the preachy twit?" "It is the Internet, bro. Deal with it." "The oBSN was always like this." I get it. I hope some of you will give it some thought, though. There are a lot of bright, engaging people here with good ideas to share. I think if we each afforded our fellow members a bit more respect, our little community would be a better place with better discussions.
I chose to post this in the Mass Effect General Discussion precisely because this is the forum most affected by the discord. I understand if the moderators judge it to be off-topic; but I feel that nothing could be more relevant to this forum at this time. I hope it doesn't get shuffled into an out of sight corner.
If you've made it this far, thanks for giving me a moment of your time. Despite the present mood of the forums, this is still my favorite group of people on the internet. Thanks for giving me a place to hangout and discuss just about anything with total strangers who share my interests.
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Post by PillarBiter on Dec 1, 2017 7:38:37 GMT
Why don't we make like a Bioware and close down the forums?
Cynical comedy aside. One thing I've learned (in life, mind, not here per se) is you can change people through your own effort, but you can't change communities (on your own, within a reasonable timespan, anyway). So: laudable your post may be, expecting simply a post to change the community is - regrettably - naïve. If you wish to change it, you need to be an advocate for change every single day to every single one of the community members here and wear the badge with pride despite being made a target.
Myself for example. I come here for a little anthem and mass effect information, and just to post some dry comedy once in a while. Maybe get an adrenaline rush out of that like or quote. Am I a contributing member to your utopia? Hardly. There's always someone who feels insulted, but should that hold me back? Maybe. But who are others then to suppress my inner desires? All in all, I try to end my day balancing out the scales of good and bad towards the first. Age has taught me to be more empathic towards a more diverse public, but no single entity can ever do right for all. Just my honest opinion and not really helpful to you, but hey... this is a forum, innit? By definition a centre for public opinion.
EDIT: In retrospect: Thank you for making a post like which triggered such a response for me. A little bit of inner reflection never hurt anyone.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 1, 2017 7:55:30 GMT
Why don't we make like a Bioware and close down the forums?
Cynical comedy aside. One thing I've learned (in life, mind, not here per se) is you can change people through your own effort, but you can't change communities (on your own, within a reasonable timespan, anyway). So: laudable your post may be, expecting simply a post to change the community is - regrettably - naïve. If you wish to change it, you need to be an advocate for change every single day to every single one of the community members here and wear the badge with pride despite being made a target.
Myself for example. I come here for a little anthem and mass effect information, and just to post some dry comedy once in a while. Maybe get an adrenaline rush out of that like or quote. Am I a contributing member to your utopia? Hardly. There's always someone who feels insulted, but should that hold me back? Maybe. But who are others then to suppress my inner desires? All in all, I try to end my day balancing out the scales of good and bad towards the first. Age has taught me to be more empathic towards a more diverse public, but no single entity can ever do right for all. Just my honest opinion and not really helpful to you, but hey... this is a forum, innit? By definition a centre for public opinion.
EDIT: In retrospect: Thank you for making a post like which triggered such a response for me. A little bit of inner reflection never hurt anyone. I'm not expecting a sweeping change. No one should be so naive. I just hope to trigger a bit of introspection in even a few people. I'm glad you appreciated the effort. I'd like to think I am a consistent "advocate through action" for the type of atmosphere I describe. I'm human, so my day to day success might vary. Still, I generally try to understand everyone's views; acknowledge and respect them; and let disagreements end respectfully.
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Post by clips7 on Dec 1, 2017 8:45:13 GMT
Awww.....i wanna give Element Zero a big hug!.... . I respect your effort, but i kinda replicate Pillars view on this. This is an open forum and ideas and personalities, especially strong personalities will clash from time to time. I feel overall tho that heated debates are handled quite well here with the mods throwing warnings around and telling folks to cool down when things are starting to escalate. Some debates will end with "well let's agree to disagree" while others might end with...."oh yeah?...well your mother mouth is so big, when she smile her ears get wet"...... well maybe they don't end like that....i'm here all week folks!....I myself come here mainly when i'm at work to BS a little and to just see what everybody else is talking about. Folks here are passionate about this franchise just like every other medium and it's a noble effort to try and get members to be a bit more respectful of each other, but i think for the most part we are.....but there will always be scenarios where debates become heated and fall off the rails.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 1, 2017 9:06:32 GMT
It's the newBSN, preachy twit. Deal with this hell. *Cough* To be honest ME franchise and it's fanbase are barely alive. So for me even bickering is better than nothing. Unless it turns into three pages long "yes, it is"-"no, it's not" parrot battle. Anyway, in a less than a year there will be new blood and of really different kind at that. Now that's gonna be something.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 1, 2017 9:22:31 GMT
I appreciate the gesture.
Personally though I find any kind of forum policing... unnecessary?
Going maybe a bit on a tangent here...
Maybe that's just me but I don't even understand why threads get closed just because they've been going on so long there is nothing more to say. Like, why not let threads die? So people have resorted to shit flinging? Ok. So? Always takes two. So if these people engage in it, they want to. So just let them go on.
*insert granny voice*
When I was young... there was no such thing as thread closing, banning people left and right and reminding everyone to watch their language. I could necro threads from two years ago because I have something to say about the topic.
Now it's "this thread has run its course. CLOSED" and it annoys me. Even if people get stuck in a loop flaming their opinions, it's a free world we live in, you know?
Threads will die on their own when people get bored of discussing / insulting each other.
I get your point. The internet is rude in general. Which is why this is the only forum I'm an active member in. I don't like these flame wars. We have some pretty rude people on BSN who do nothing but insult others. Not cool. But I prefer that to the moral police actually.
I'm team free speech even if that means we all have to suffer through occasional insults.
Just my two cents on message board etiquette.
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Post by clips7 on Dec 1, 2017 9:32:28 GMT
ow it's "this thread has run its course. CLOSED" and it annoys me. Even if people get stuck in a loop flaming their opinions, it's a free world we live in, you know? I agree with this as well...sometimes i feel threads are being closed prematurely even when debates aren't that volatile.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 1, 2017 9:49:56 GMT
I appreciate the gesture. Personally though I find any kind of forum policing... unnecessary? Going maybe a bit on a tangent here... Maybe that's just me but I don't even understand why threads get closed just because they've been going on so long there is nothing more to say. Like, why not let threads die? So people have resorted to shit flinging? Ok. So? Always takes two. So if these people engage in it, they want to. So just let them go on. *insert granny voice* When I was young... there was no such thing as thread closing, banning people left and right and reminding everyone to watch their language. I could necro threads from two years ago because I have something to say about the topic. Now it's "this thread has run its course. CLOSED" and it annoys me. Even if people get stuck in a loop flaming their opinions, it's a free world we live in, you know? Threads will die on their own when people get bored of discussing / insulting each other. I get your point. The internet is rude in general. Which is why this is the only forum I'm an active member in. I don't like these flame wars. We have some pretty rude people on BSN who do nothing but insult others. Not cool. But I prefer that to the moral police actually. I'm team free speech even if that means we all have to suffer through occasional insults. Just my two cents on message board etiquette. I agree. I'd never ask the mods to restrict free debate. I've had that conversation with some who desire exactly that. This was not intended as an appeal to the mods. I thought it might be worthwhile to appeal directly to the community as individuals; to ask everyone if they feel they individually are doing what they truly come here to do. Are they getting what they want out of their time here? What do they feel they are contributing? If it's incessant arguing an individual seeks, so be it. I suspect for at least some it's a habit developed from feeling frequently ignored or disrespected.
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Post by bshep on Dec 1, 2017 10:21:57 GMT
Well some people simply aren't here to debate anyway, they are here just to troll others. Unfortunately the perceived anonimity of the internet makes entitled people even worse.
I have already move on from trying to expect anything else from those people and now i simply put them on my blocked list.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 10:33:42 GMT
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Dec 1, 2017 11:25:53 GMT
You can pry my arms from my cold, dead... arms... dammit that made sense when I started...
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 1, 2017 11:51:42 GMT
I agree. I'd never ask the mods to restrict free debate. I've had that conversation with some who desire exactly that. This was not intended as an appeal to the mods. I thought it might be worthwhile to appeal directly to the community as individuals; to ask everyone if they feel they individually are doing what they truly come here to do. Are they getting what they want out of their time here? What do they feel they are contributing? If it's incessant arguing an individual seeks, so be it. I suspect for at least some it's a habit developed from feeling frequently ignored or disrespected. I know. I was just adding a general gripe of mine with forum moderation (not just here) these days. I believe some people do deliberate trolling and are getting exactly the response they were looking for. Some people enjoy insulting others. Nothing to be done about it but ignoring them. But yeah, for everyone else, my advice wold be to not take videogame discussions too seriously. ^^
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Dec 1, 2017 12:21:36 GMT
ow it's "this thread has run its course. CLOSED" and it annoys me. Even if people get stuck in a loop flaming their opinions, it's a free world we live in, you know? I agree with this as well...sometimes i feel threads are being closed prematurely even when debates aren't that volatile. It's not like if they were stabbing each other to death, It's just that they end up in the same point in every thread "you're such a biodrone, duh duh duh..." "oh, shut it, troll, reeee... " over and over& over againAnd for the OP: i'll nominate you to the peace novel uBSN prize
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Post by Scathane on Dec 1, 2017 13:25:19 GMT
Good post, marvellous word play...
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Post by ShadowAngel on Dec 1, 2017 15:48:08 GMT
Ehh, I've said forums make their own mess when it comes to this "fanboy/hater" thing. There's a lot of people who call others trolls/haters/fanboys, yet months down the road you can still find those people engaging with them. It's hypocritical to complain about users, their mindset, etc etc but then STILL talk to them. A brick wall is wall, you aren't getting anywhere engaging with them. If you're still communicating to them, then it tells me you really don't have an issue with them, you merely like to argue for the sake of it.
As for dropping the bickering: doubtful it goes, that's forum nature. You can always find a group or a specific individual who'll fight anything and everything. Furthermore feelings also get in the way. "Best game ever" one can say only to have another raise hell over it, or you can have someone criticizing with reasons and explanations and someone raises hell on the critiquing user labeling them a hater. I've been called fanboy/hater on a single game various times cause people just make that assumption without actually understanding my overall view. In some cases it's a lose/lose situation. Say what it does well and your a brown noser, say what it does wrong and you're a hater with no understanding of the game. A lot of this is cause I believe most people honestly can't look into a game in an objective way. There's a difference between liking something and thinking it's actually good, there's also a difference between disliking something but realizing it's still a good product. It all has to do with personal feeling, if you like something, instinct tells you it's good where as vice Versa it's bad if you dislike it. This is how things become overrated and underrated.
I say good luck on getting people to be open to other opinions. Some view things being so "dumb" that they'd question how one can even have said opinion. "You lost all credibility when you said *insert text*". Plus I like seeing people complain about other users being aggressive posters but then they themselves post in an agressive manner, goes along with me saying people are hypocritical when they complain about something or someone but then follow up doing the same thing. "This guys shit posting" *then proceeeds to shit post back*. 😒 👌
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 1, 2017 16:07:27 GMT
Ehh, I've said forums make their own mess when it comes to this "fanboy/hater" thing. There's a lot of people who call others trolls/haters/fanboys, yet months down the road you can still find those people engaging with them. It's hypocritical to complain about users, their mindset, etc etc but then STILL talk to them. A brick wall is wall, you aren't getting anywhere engaging with them. If you're still communicating to them, then it tells me you really don't have an issue with them, you merely like to argue for the sake of it. As for dropping the bickering: doubtful it goes, that's forum nature. You can always find a group or a specific individual who'll fight anything and everything. Furthermore feelings also get in the way. "Best game ever" one can say only to have another raise hell over it, or you can have someone criticizing with reasons and explanations and someone raises hell on the critiquing user labeling them a hater. I've been called fanboy/hater on a single game various times cause people just make that assumption without actually understanding my overall view. In some cases it's a lose/lose situation. Say what it does well and your a brown noser, say what it does wrong and you're a hater with no understanding of the game. A lot of this is cause I believe most people honestly can't look into a game in an objective way. There's a difference between liking something and thinking it's actually good, there's also a difference between disliking something but realizing it's still a good product. It all has to do with personal feeling, if you like something, instinct tells you it's good where as vice Versa it's bad if you dislike it. This is how things become overrated and underrated. I say good luck on getting people to be open to other opinions. Some view things being so "dumb" that they'd question how one can even have said opinion. "You lost all credibility when you said *insert text*". Plus I like seeing people complain about other users being aggressive posters but then they themselves post in an agressive manner, goes along with me saying people are hypocritical when they complain about something or someone but then follow up doing the same thing. "This guys shit posting" *then proceeeds to shit post back*. 😒 👌 I can think of precise examples and experiences for the things you describe. I nodded throughout the post, and chuckled as I read the last part. Some try to be passive aggressive with their "counter-trolling", as if it allows them to retain some high ground. All we can control is our own actions. If enough people exercise just a bit more patience and restraint, it will have a significant effect over time. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but it's a good one at least. It's nice to read so many positive and reasonable responses to the OP. I was honestly prepared for and expecting a bit of everything. The prevailing response seems to be a very realistic, "That would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 16:08:31 GMT
Sounds like I missed some good bantz... On a serious note, forums always devolve into exactly what you describe... it is an inevitable cycle. Emotions run high and people only get more bullheaded when exposed to a contradictory point of view. Really, it's human nature and the anonymous nature of the 'Net only exacerbates it. Best course of action is to ignore toxic users and use your blocklist where applicable. Other than that? Buckle up, buckaroo! Edit: Added some shit, sorry about fucking up the quote!
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 1, 2017 16:17:34 GMT
Sounds like I missed some good bantz... On a serious note, forums always devolve into exactly what you describe... it is inevitable. We have the good, the bad and the ugly on a daily basis here. Welcome to the BSN! I'm a fan of the screen name, its spelling and the avatar. Two thumbs up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 16:20:02 GMT
Sounds like I missed some good bantz... On a serious note, forums always devolve into exactly what you describe... it is inevitable. We have the good, the bad and the ugly on a daily basis here. Welcome to the BSN! I'm a fan of the screen name, its spelling and the avatar. Two thumbs up. Thanks man! Avatar was made buy your's truly and the old copy/paste of Cyrillic was used in parts of the spelling (super surprised that it worked here, lol). Gotta love them turians and quarians, amirite?
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Post by themikefest on Dec 1, 2017 16:23:19 GMT
We have the good, the bad and the ugly on a daily basis here. The best western movie ever made starring the awesome Clint Eastwood. excellent
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Post by Superhik on Dec 1, 2017 16:25:30 GMT
OP, you should put more effort into crushing your enemies, see them driven before you and listen to lamentations of their women! ( figuratively speaking)
And let's be honest, some people are also irrationally defensive, though some threads tend to over-repeat themselves. There are way worse bickering on other forums ( say hello to codex).
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 1, 2017 17:35:08 GMT
We have the good, the bad and the ugly on a daily basis here. The best western movie ever made starring the awesome Clint Eastwood. excellent It's a timeless reference! OP, you should put more effort into crushing your enemies, see them driven before you and listen to lamentations of their women! ( figuratively speaking) And let's be honest, some people are also irrationally defensive, though some threads tend to over-repeat themselves. There are way worse bickering on other forums ( say hello to codex). Haha. I'll take it under advisement. I'd have made a terrible barbarian king, I think. I absolutely agree about the thin-skinned defensiveness. I tried to address it in the OP. It's a huge part of the issue in any conversation that devolves into an argument. A few things eventually happen with the thin-skinned types. Some become the aggressive, argumentative crap-poster they originally hated. Others start reporting everything, instead of just walking away or handling their own business. Some rage-quit. Maybe a few just leave; but that's a pretty reasonable response that I don't generally associate with the delicate flowers. My belief is that the ideal lies in the middle. I think to myself, "Does this post sound like I'm being a dick?" (Just acknowledging in the post, "I know this sounds bad..." often diffuses anger preemptively.) "Am I reading more into this guy's comment than is there?" "Is it really worth getting annoyed?" (It never is.) "Have I given him a reasonable opportunity to have an intelligent exchange?" "Is this conversation going nowhere fast?" I'm not claiming I don't piss people off or make missteps; but I generally manage to keep the peace (my own and others'). I realize everyone is unique. I don't want this to sound like I'm elevating myself. I'm just sharing my general mindset.
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 1, 2017 18:36:50 GMT
Mass Effect: Andromeda proved to be a pretty divisive game That a nice euphemism for a major disaster that killed the franchise. Now, I don't think Andromeda is the worst game ever made, but it's not even close to be the miniminum it should have been. I don't want to make anyone feel bad for liking the game, but everyone should face the reality of the situation. Sometimes I want to try to go back and give Andromeda were more try... and I simply can't. Maybe one day.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 1, 2017 18:52:52 GMT
Mass Effect: Andromeda proved to be a pretty divisive game That a nice euphemism for a major disaster that killed the franchise. Now, I don't think Andromeda is the worst game ever made, but it's not even close to be the miniminum it should have been. I don't want to make anyone feel bad for liking the game, but everyone should face the reality of the situation. Sometimes I want to try to go back and give Andromeda were more try... and I simply can't. Maybe one day. The reality is that it wasn’t one game that “killed” the franchise. That likely started in 2012.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 1, 2017 19:26:55 GMT
To be honest as bad as I found the ME: A sub forum since the games release. I keep telling myself that it’s much better than the Battlefront subreddit. It’s an absolute nightmare to navigate in. People will spew hate towards if you bought Battlefront 2 or even think of it positively. They’ll blame you for “enabling” EA and show very sympathy if you complain about the rubber banding or other features. Say that the current game is good and you will be labeled all kind of names.
Well at least in here there’s some decent conversation about ME: A Even it occasionally drifts into petty bickering.
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