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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 3, 2018 2:13:34 GMT
The problem with "choices that matter" is that sometimes, the choices really don't matter.
Take the Bull's Chargers, something someone mentioned. I couldn't, for the absolute life of me, side with the Qun. At all. Ever. That's a meaningless choice for me even though I'm given the option.
Another problem with "meaningful choice" is that a lot of the time, I won't get a choice that I like. Take Dorian's quest, for instance. I have to be very supportive of that little prick, and I had no desire to be.
I agree that choices should have an effect on the world. Sometimes small, sometimes big. But you can't wave a magic wand and give something meaning merely because you have a choice. I think, instead, they should focus on making the points behind the decisions clear, even if they aren't always clear at the time you make the choice: The biggest one for this was choosing the mages or templars in Inquisition. To me, it seemed like BioWARE had no desire to put anymore effort in choosing the Templars beyond the bare minimum. I got to talk to mages in Redcliffe, hear all of this and that. But I only got one scene in Val Royeaux for the templars, and no one else to even communicate with.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 3, 2018 2:31:19 GMT
Except we're not. Nothing important changes. Just who gets to make a cameo. Do you really think it's a coincidence that no matter who becomes Divine, she always picks "Victoria" as a name? I'd much rather they focus on creating exclusive content based on our choices, like the mage/Templar conflict, than try to shoehorn in mentions of whether Celene or Gaspard rules Orlais. No, but doesn't it matter who Victoria is versus why they picked that name? That's just it: it probably won't matter going forward.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 2:39:44 GMT
No, but doesn't it matter who Victoria is versus why they picked that name? That's just it: it probably won't matter going forward. At least it's not as bad as DA:2.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 3, 2018 2:41:56 GMT
I agree that choices should have an effect on the world. Sometimes small, sometimes big. But you can't wave a magic wand and give something meaning merely because you have a choice. I think, instead, they should focus on making the points behind the decisions clear, even if they aren't always clear at the time you make the choice: The biggest one for this was choosing the mages or templars in Inquisition. To me, it seemed like BioWARE had no desire to put anymore effort in choosing the Templars beyond the bare minimum. I got to talk to mages in Redcliffe, hear all of this and that. But I only got one scene in Val Royeaux for the templars, and no one else to even communicate with. I'd rather have tangible choices, even if they aren't huge "fate of the nation" choices: I want choices that can alter the trajectory of the story, multiple paths to victory. And to defeat. I want choices that affect how my character is remembered. I want choices that affects who is my friend and who is my enemy. Those are the choices that make our play thrus unique. That make me feel like my choices matter. Choices that affect the here and now, not some game that might be made years later.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 3, 2018 2:46:08 GMT
That's just it: it probably won't matter going forward. At least it's not as bad as DA:2. interestingly, DA2 had the potential to be EXACTLY what I wanted. Hawke's "rise to power" was limited to one city, and took place over several years. Such a setting was ripe for smaller, more personal choices that could more drastically shape his/her life. Thy even addressed the friendship/rivalry system so reputation wouldn't be so binary! Sadly, it was not to be. Alpha Protocol, which came out a year earlier, worked much better. And even had the same "telling the story of what happened" framework.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 2:52:13 GMT
interestingly, DA2 had the potential to be EXACTLY what I wanted. Hawke's "rise to power" was limited to one city, and took place over several years. Such a setting was ripe for smaller, more personal choices that could more drastically shape his/her life. Thy even addressed the friendship/rivalry system so reputation wouldn't be so binary! Yeah but none of your choices matter for shite in the next game though. I'd rather have a game like DA:O, considering my choices felt like it meant something in the end, even if they ultimately did not, at least I was given the illusion of it. I'd rather take the illusion than whatever DA:2 did, which is not making an effort to make choices matter in the long run.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 3, 2018 19:20:49 GMT
I think people confuse choices mattering with choices mattering.
I often argue that just because a character is the PC does not mean they are God. Other characters can make decisions for themselves. And sure in the grand scheme of things Hawkes choices did not matter but all the events shaped and effected their character and Hawke chose how she reacted.
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 4, 2018 7:00:28 GMT
But... there were a lot of choices in DA:I that changed quite a few details. I guess many here ate simply plot driven and don’t care for the breadth not depth of tbe character driven choices offered. There are not a lot of games that can be held ip to Inquisition when it comes to affecting characters and relationships.
Hell, the import differences for characters and their details are astounding. Guess DA is just a franchise for character driven gamers. Though, that is all of Bioware really. Gods of character driven games. No one comes close to them.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Mar 4, 2018 7:14:00 GMT
Hell, the import differences for characters and their details are astounding. Guess DA is just a franchise for character driven gamers. Though, that is all of Bioware really. Gods of character driven games. No one comes close to them. 120 hours of collecting shards, occularum, astrariums, mosaic pieces, bottles, other bottles, and whatever crap your party members want you to find doesn't make your game a game for "driven gamers" unless your goal is to drive them to insanity.
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 4, 2018 7:19:44 GMT
Hell, the import differences for characters and their details are astounding. Guess DA is just a franchise for character driven gamers. Though, that is all of Bioware really. Gods of character driven games. No one comes close to them. 120 hours of collecting shards, occularum, astrariums, mosaic pieces, bottles, other bottles, and whatever crap your party members want you to find doesn't make your game a game for "driven gamers" unless your goal is to drive them to insanity. They allow choice of who your character is. Do they hunt treasure and history? Do they enjoy puzzles? Do they only focus on the task at hand? Sorry, but those quests are a great aid in character development. It just isn’t spelled out for you in black and white. Find that a lot in Inquisition. So much depth, but they don’t plaster it all in neon signs. The devs expected the players to dig for it. I did and I found the most intricate, complex, and well built world in gaming, and possibly entertainment in general. All because of the little details so many dismiss as irrelevant. And I was given control to make an Inquisitor based on simple choices such as “fetch” quests. There was meaning in each quest. You just missed it.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Mar 4, 2018 8:19:58 GMT
Sorry, but those quests are a great aid in character development. Because nothing says character development like finding bottles. If thats the best Bioware can manage, perhaps its time to get out of the RPG game.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 4, 2018 11:26:10 GMT
At least it's not as bad as DA:2. interestingly, DA2 had the potential to be EXACTLY what I wanted. Hawke's "rise to power" was limited to one city, and took place over several years. Such a setting was ripe for smaller, more personal choices that could more drastically shape his/her life. Thy even addressed the friendship/rivalry system so reputation wouldn't be so binary! Sadly, it was not to be. Alpha Protocol, which came out a year earlier, worked much better. And even had the same "telling the story of what happened" framework. Personally i love a lot about DA2. To me DA2's problem is that they didn't have the time to implement the visuals to go with the story, hence why the visuals are so poor. I'd love DA4 to be basically a revisiting of the DA2 idea but this time giving it proper development time. However i think with the engine they are using they will continue focusing on massive open world with tonnes of grind over more personal storytelling.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 4, 2018 13:45:59 GMT
120 hours of collecting shards, occularum, astrariums, mosaic pieces, bottles, other bottles, and whatever crap your party members want you to find doesn't make your game a game for "driven gamers" unless your goal is to drive them to insanity. They allow choice of who your character is. Do they hunt treasure and history? Do they enjoy puzzles? Do they only focus on the task at hand? Sorry, but those quests are a great aid in character development. It just isn’t spelled out for you in black and white. Find that a lot in Inquisition. So much depth, but they don’t plaster it all in neon signs. The devs expected the players to dig for it. I did and I found the most intricate, complex, and well built world in gaming, and possibly entertainment in general. All because of the little details so many dismiss as irrelevant. And I was given control to make an Inquisitor based on simple choices such as “fetch” quests. There was meaning in each quest. You just missed it. The only one of those quests I really liked was the occularum (and even that had a certain frustration feature), I wanted to enjoy the mosaics more, but the images don't show up very well.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 4, 2018 13:53:31 GMT
It's like I keep saying: Forget importing choices from game to game, make them matter in the game where you make them. Don't just turn choices into baggage that demands more and more cameos. Yet people keep calling for the Hero of Ferelden... At least with the Dragon Age series, callbacks are mostly to the previous game, not further.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 4, 2018 14:01:55 GMT
120 hours of collecting shards, occularum, astrariums, mosaic pieces, bottles, other bottles, and whatever crap your party members want you to find doesn't make your game a game for "driven gamers" unless your goal is to drive them to insanity. They allow choice of who your character is. Do they hunt treasure and history? Do they enjoy puzzles? Do they only focus on the task at hand? Sorry, but those quests are a great aid in character development. It just isn’t spelled out for you in black and white. Find that a lot in Inquisition. So much depth, but they don’t plaster it all in neon signs. The devs expected the players to dig for it. I did and I found the most intricate, complex, and well built world in gaming, and possibly entertainment in general. All because of the little details so many dismiss as irrelevant. And I was given control to make an Inquisitor based on simple choices such as “fetch” quests. There was meaning in each quest. You just missed it. For me: it's just about the Inquisitor feels, s/he doesn't get his salary if didn't collect enough weeds and pebbles and other shit. With his own Andraste blessed hand. This is no more than work, and not the creative-kind, just boring, tedious and time-killer in this implement.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 4, 2018 15:23:12 GMT
Last I checked, collecting shards, weeds and bottles is an option.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 4, 2018 16:09:27 GMT
It's like I keep saying: Forget importing choices from game to game, make them matter in the game where you make them. Don't just turn choices into baggage that demands more and more cameos. Yet people keep calling for the Hero of Ferelden... At least with the Dragon Age series, callbacks are mostly to the previous game, not further. Which I cannot fathom, given the Commander Shepard debacle. Shepard get's roped into becoming TIM's b*tch regardless of how the player feels about Cerberus, then forced into working for the Alliance again in the third? See LI's friendzone or outright talk smack to you in order to clear the way for new LIs? See old allies abandon you, your previous accomplishments come to nothing, and ultimately burn and die destroying the setting? Yeah, you either retire a hero or get used up and cast aside in the name of "Art". I'm quite happy retiring my surviving Wardens while they're still at the top of their game. Edit: hopefully what happened to Hawke will cool the ardor for a return of the Warden.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 4, 2018 16:16:57 GMT
hopefully what happened to Hawke will cool the ardor for a return of the Warden Traveling to Weisshaupt? Is that a bad thing?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 4, 2018 16:18:39 GMT
hopefully what happened to Hawke will cool the ardor for a return of the Warden Traveling to Weisshaupt? Is that a bad thing? I think they are referring to how out of character Hawke was for many players in DAI.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 4, 2018 16:29:20 GMT
Traveling to Weisshaupt? Is that a bad thing? I think they are referring to how out of character Hawke was for many players in DAI. Exactly.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 4, 2018 16:31:21 GMT
I think they are referring to how out of character Hawke was for many players in DAI. Oh... not heard that before. I was quite happy to see Hawke in DAi (though the character creator did little for them.)
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 4, 2018 16:42:53 GMT
I think they are referring to how out of character Hawke was for many players in DAI. Oh... not heard that before. I was quite happy to see Hawke in DAi (though the character creator did little for them.) Think of some of Hawke's lines, then imagine you played a blood mage, and then see how absolutely ridiculous it was to hear him/her rail against blood magic. I didn't even play a blood mage and I thought it was annoying. It's about having your character be fully controlled by the game and the writers, and not by yourself. As much as I want to see my Inquisitor again for DA4, this is my main concern.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 4, 2018 16:44:37 GMT
Last I checked, collecting shards, weeds and bottles is an option. Collecting weeds and pebbles is not... and this just as shit and collecting shards.
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Post by rras1994 on Mar 4, 2018 16:48:43 GMT
Last I checked, collecting shards, weeds and bottles is an option. Collecting weeds and pebbles is not... and this just as shit and collecting shards. You can send your advisors to collect supplies but any game with a crafting system needs you to collect supplies, that stuffs generally just used to craft armour and potions and stuff like that, you could do requisitions but you really don't need to at all. DAI is an RPG, I'm not sure how else it would put a crafting system in?
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Post by Catilina on Mar 4, 2018 16:49:55 GMT
Collecting weeds and pebbles is not... and this just as shit and collecting shards. You can send your advisors to collect supplies but any game with a crafting system needs you to collect supplies, that stuffs generally just used to craft armour and potions and stuff like that, you could do requisitions but you really don't need to at all. DAI is an RPG, I'm not sure how else it would put a crafting system in? I loved DA2 crafting and gathering system... that was the best!
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