Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Apr 25, 2018 9:11:46 GMT
What fans are these? BioWare made a brilliant 80-100 game, followed by a sequel nearly twice the size. THAT is what this BioWare fan would like to see. The KotOR to Mass Effect period was a bunch of games that were too short.Too short? The Mass Effect trilogy and the DA2 was excellent, from this view, the DA2 has the highest replayability value in the series (and the best hero and story with flaws, but still). The DAO a bit long, but much better than the DAI, the DAO don't have so many empty area and quests. The open world game is the territory of Bethesda. And the Bethesda very good at it, the Bioware not really. The brilliant 80-100 hour game to which I was referring was Baldur's Gate.
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Post by bizantura on May 1, 2018 13:49:46 GMT
Let Bioware's creativity flow naturally and not bound to myriad inserted rules driven by politic interests, financial greed, and nihilism. The insertion of the unavoidable microtransactions will be bad enough even if they implement it a la Ubisoft's ACO.
Within all Bioware's games, I too have my favorites but I believe ultimately it is curbing Bioware's strength which was storytelling that led to a decline not the lengths of game. No open world - to much open world - too much side quests - too much fetch quests etc.
For me, nobody could tell stories like Bioware could nor make interactions with NPC's like they could in an SP RPG world. It worries me that it could be lost forever.
I am not looking forward to only playing game clones from a few left over publishers.
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Post by simit on May 1, 2018 17:22:08 GMT
Base game DA:I playthrough took me 35/45 hours, completionist 65/75 hours maybe 80 if i left game on an went to toilet alot or stood an talked for awhile when making a coffee, throw in dlc i can run through it all 50/60 hours non completionist an 100/120 completionist but tbh after 1 completionist run of a game the size of DA:I the subsequent characters are sort of roleplayed through an only do what i feel is relevant to there character, an that is whats great about DA:I, the ability to choose where an what your pc sees or does.
No denying some areas could be better, also no denying side content could also be better but i'd rather have a game the size of DA:I with them improvements an the freedom an choice it offers to a linear experience of the same thing everytime apart from the colour of dialogue choice or my class/spec. I like DA:O an love DA2 but both dont come near the freedom of choice giving to the player that DA:I gives, my actual wish for DA4 is to have a personal story ala DA2 with various origins ala DA:O on a scale to DA:I, is it possible? i think so
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Post by colfoley on May 2, 2018 2:04:27 GMT
Base game DA:I playthrough took me 35/45 hours, completionist 65/75 hours maybe 80 if i left game on an went to toilet alot or stood an talked for awhile when making a coffee, throw in dlc i can run through it all 50/60 hours non completionist an 100/120 completionist but tbh after 1 completionist run of a game the size of DA:I the subsequent characters are sort of roleplayed through an only do what i feel is relevant to there character, an that is whats great about DA:I, the ability to choose where an what your pc sees or does. No denying some areas could be better, also no denying side content could also be better but i'd rather have a game the size of DA:I with them improvements an the freedom an choice it offers to a linear experience of the same thing everytime apart from the colour of dialogue choice or my class/spec. I like DA:O an love DA2 but both dont come near the freedom of choice giving to the player that DA:I gives, my actual wish for DA4 is to have a personal story ala DA2 with various origins ala DA:O on a scale to DA:I, is it possible? i think so my mouth is watering at the suggestion.
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Post by ames4u on May 3, 2018 19:38:55 GMT
Eh, I actually think MEA would have been a better game if it didn't have to deal with ME3's ending. That's the thing. Without the ME3's endings we could've had a normal Mass Effect game. They probably used half the development time just to figure the plot for Andromeda (or whatever the code name was back then). From what I heard it was them getting overeager about the procedurally generated environments and 'flying' the ship in space. By the time they realised it wasn't going to work, over three years had passed with a deadline fast approaching. It had nothing to do with the story. I've had enough of empty sandboxes. Bioware seems to be focusing on the wrong areas. DAI was filled with big empty spaces where it wasn't necessary. Orlais should've been an architectural marvel with hidden areas, winding streets and interesting things to find and interact with like Bloodborne and DS3-instead we got to dander down a few side-streets and interact with a few street vendors, yet we had map over map of empty areas filled with b-tch quests. Skyhold should've been the players playground to build up as they wished. To set those 'upgrade's going and watch as the fortress was slowly rebuilt into your little playground, physically seeing the progress you were making. Choosing what amenities were more necessary and having them affect the story along with how you dealt with new factions joining your resistance. My conversation with Viv made me think that training a few templars on the sly would be a good idea in case of the mages turning and that also carried the threat of them finding out how I didn't fully trust them and in choosing to keep a few templars on the hush, lose their support. But no. It was utterly pointless. Just empty fluff.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 4, 2018 19:01:17 GMT
Hello guys, we know by experience (DAI) that there is a lot of boring quests and "filler" content that takes hours and hours of the game, a 100% playthrough takes about 100-150 hours, so why not cut it to 50ish and create impactfull and meaningfull choices that changes deeply the state of the campaing, enhancing the experience, improving the replayability and giving the player the real power to create his own story. Can't we just have side quests that don't seriously impact the game like in every other BioWare game? I think paring things down to remove them would make it not BioWare. I want the choice to save some random farmer somewhere, even if the impact is minimal. A more pragmatic protagonist might ignore it but a kinder one would not. I actually think that gives more agency to the PC than removing those little things that make someone especially heroic versus ignoring their plight to look only at the bigger picture. Neither choice is "bad" per se but illustrate the different ways you can approach the PC.
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Post by London on May 8, 2018 21:12:22 GMT
My favorite Bioware game for me is ME3. I'm completely fine with 40-50 hour games that respect my time and is primarily meaningful content.
What I don't want to do is spend 20 hours of my life trying to figure out how to walk up a hill to collect a shiny.
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Post by aesir on May 20, 2018 21:57:05 GMT
Wow guys, didn't expect all this discussion, i forgot my account information, wasn't able to discuss with yall, i have a lot to read now, sorry if i'm so late, but i you guys talked about most of the problems and it was a solid debate, i hope someone at bioware reads something.
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Post by aesir on May 20, 2018 22:05:33 GMT
Just for some clarification.
1-i'm not suggesting that EVERY choice needs to have a huge impact, neither that EVERY quest needs to have different outcomes, also i'm not suggesting that if you choose to side with faction A instead of B, the whole rest of the game will be completelly diferent. 2-When i'm saying get rid of filler content, i'm not saying to have 0 side quests, i'm saying to have 0 meaningless side (or main) quests, Witcher 2 and 3 and other games have a lot of amazing side quests, that don't involve farming herbs or closing portals. 3-I know that those side quets (farming, killing, gathering...) are optional, but they take away time and resources, i would like them to use those to improve and expand the BEST parts of the game, storytelling and character development. 4-I understand that the exponential mechanic can easily explode into way more content and being time consuming, but i'm asking for it to be proportional to the effort that they put in "bad content", i don't know if i was clear but basically i want they to trade 100 hours of useless content into 100 hours of good content, or like X months of work, developing those fillers, side quests, bad main quests, objectives, dialogue, voice acting, world building, into X months of developing the things we all love.
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Post by rras1994 on May 20, 2018 22:42:51 GMT
Just for some clarification. 1-i'm not suggesting that EVERY choice needs to have a huge impact, neither that EVERY quest needs to have different outcomes, also i'm not suggesting that if you choose to side with faction A instead of B, the whole rest of the game will be completelly diferent. 2-When i'm saying get rid of filler content, i'm not saying to have 0 side quests, i'm saying to have 0 meaningless side (or main) quests, Witcher 2 and 3 and other games have a lot of amazing side quests, that don't involve farming herbs or closing portals. 3-I know that those side quets (farming, killing, gathering...) are optional, but they take away time and resources, i would like them to use those to improve and expand the BEST parts of the game, storytelling and character development. 4-I understand that the exponential mechanic can easily explode into way more content and being time consuming, but i'm asking for it to be proportional to the effort that they put in "bad content", i don't know if i was clear but basically i want they to trade 100 hours of useless content into 100 hours of good content, or like X months of work, developing those fillers, side quests, bad main quests, objectives, dialogue, voice acting, world building, into X months of developing the things we all love. 2 points: One: getting rid of the "meaningless" side quests does not mean you'd get more content you want: development just doesn't work that way. Eliminating fetch quests does not mean you'd get more cinematic quests for example. Resources aren't entirely interchangeble - DAI for example, the environment artist were easily able to produce big, beautiful areas, while the animation department was strugling making scenes in the game. However you can't just move environment artists over to the animation team, they have different skill sets. You could argue that maybe they should have hired more animaters and less environment artists, but that's easy to say in hindsight. It can be hard to predict where the problems are going to pop up, and therefore where the resources are needed to go. If working out this stuff was easy, crunch wouldn't be a thing. Two: No dev sets out to make bad content. Things might go wrong in development and they may have to cut back to what they wanted to do, or the thing they spent many resources on just ended up not fun but no dev did it intentionally. With this in mind, how are you meant to know from the start that the content is going to turn out bad or not? And therefore know in hindsight you should put resources in this direction instead?
It's easy to say cut back from a 100 hr game to 50 hr game, and then the 50 hr game content will be so much better. But that is in no way guaranteed. It's more complicated then that. DAI is actually a great example of this. Sticking to the main quests in DAI is about a 40-50 hr experience, the extra fetch quests push it to about a 100 hr. However given what we know about the development, getting rid of those "extra" quests wouldn't have meant more main quests - they were having dificulty with the tools which meant they couldn't make those parts faster, or a larger quantity. What's the point in getting rid of them when it wouldn't mean more of the meatier part of the game and there are people that like them? There's no real benefit to getting rid of them.
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Post by duskwanderer on May 20, 2018 23:26:19 GMT
Too short? The Mass Effect trilogy and the DA2 was excellent, from this view, the DA2 has the highest replayability value in the series (and the best hero and story with flaws, but still). The DAO a bit long, but much better than the DAI, the DAO don't have so many empty area and quests. The open world game is the territory of Bethesda. And the Bethesda very good at it, the Bioware not really. The brilliant 80-100 hour game to which I was referring was Baldur's Gate. Hey, I loved Baldur's Gate, but that was only a 30 hour game. SoA+ToB was about 40. Then again, the prices were lower. I think I only spent $30 on BGII when it came out new.
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Post by duskwanderer on May 20, 2018 23:40:13 GMT
As for choices, here's what I would like to see in regards to them:
The major problem with "choices matter", by which I define as "having a distinct choice between two or more options" is these three things:
1.) When I'm given a choice, I don't like any of the choices. Even if there is a clear and distinct difference (the choice "matters", as it were), I don't find anything appealing about either. Or the choice I want is not an option. Take Dorian's loyalty mission, for instance. When I do that mission, I'm given several choices. I can be condemning to Halward, I can be supportive of Dorian, or I can tell Dorian to let his father talk. At no point am I offered the choice to rid myself of Dorian and give him over to his father. That would certainly a great end to that pointless quest.
2.) The game offers no reason to pick one choice over another, even if the choice is distinct. This I saw very clearly in the Mages vs Templars decision. The game offers us no reason to support the Templars. Other than one line by Cullen, which is delivered fairly half-heartedly at the War Table, all of the factors of the game are nudging me to pick the Mages. In fact, I'm not told the Herald's got a reputation among the rank-and-file until after I decide to go on the mission. Through dialogue between Cassandra and Solas, I can reason out what the templars will do to help the Breach: Weaken the Fade so the Anchor can do its work closing the rift. However, that's an optional conversation (and I don't even think I can learn it until after we complete Cassandra's personal mission).
3.) Making a choice over another (even if the choice is distinct) ascribes a motivation to the PC that I don't follow. Dragon Age 2 was really bad with this. If you wanted to side against the Arishok, you had to subscribe to the belief that the Qunari are bad because they are non-Andrastian heathens. Not because they attacked me during the Ketojan quest. Not because they are harboring criminals. But because they are godless.
These three things MUST be overcome in order to have a game with meaningful choices. It's true that there will always be some options we can keep, but giving a reason why the only choices I can take helps in that regard. Some sort of time limit or something.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 30, 2018 19:39:36 GMT
Hey, I loved Baldur's Gate, but that was only a 30 hour game. SoA+ToB was about 40. Then again, the prices were lower. I think I only spent $30 on BGII when it came out new. Not if you did everything. Critical path only, then maybe (though BG did a masterful job of concealing the critical path).
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Post by colfoley on May 31, 2018 19:25:37 GMT
As for choices, here's what I would like to see in regards to them: The major problem with "choices matter", by which I define as "having a distinct choice between two or more options" is these three things: 1.) When I'm given a choice, I don't like any of the choices. Even if there is a clear and distinct difference (the choice "matters", as it were), I don't find anything appealing about either. Or the choice I want is not an option. Take Dorian's loyalty mission, for instance. When I do that mission, I'm given several choices. I can be condemning to Halward, I can be supportive of Dorian, or I can tell Dorian to let his father talk. At no point am I offered the choice to rid myself of Dorian and give him over to his father. That would certainly a great end to that pointless quest. 2.) The game offers no reason to pick one choice over another, even if the choice is distinct. This I saw very clearly in the Mages vs Templars decision. The game offers us no reason to support the Templars. Other than one line by Cullen, which is delivered fairly half-heartedly at the War Table, all of the factors of the game are nudging me to pick the Mages. In fact, I'm not told the Herald's got a reputation among the rank-and-file until after I decide to go on the mission. Through dialogue between Cassandra and Solas, I can reason out what the templars will do to help the Breach: Weaken the Fade so the Anchor can do its work closing the rift. However, that's an optional conversation (and I don't even think I can learn it until after we complete Cassandra's personal mission). 3.) Making a choice over another (even if the choice is distinct) ascribes a motivation to the PC that I don't follow. Dragon Age 2 was really bad with this. If you wanted to side against the Arishok, you had to subscribe to the belief that the Qunari are bad because they are non-Andrastian heathens. Not because they attacked me during the Ketojan quest. Not because they are harboring criminals. But because they are godless. These three things MUST be overcome in order to have a game with meaningful choices. It's true that there will always be some options we can keep, but giving a reason why the only choices I can take helps in that regard. Some sort of time limit or something. I prefer it when a game does not create a reason to pick one choice over another. This is something that both Andromeda and Inquisition nailed. That way it's up to the player what they want to do for their character's sake and not what the game calls good and evil.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 31, 2018 19:47:57 GMT
3.) Making a choice over another (even if the choice is distinct) ascribes a motivation to the PC that I don't follow. Dragon Age 2 was really bad with this. If you wanted to side against the Arishok, you had to subscribe to the belief that the Qunari are bad because they are non-Andrastian heathens. Not because they attacked me during the Ketojan quest. Not because they are harboring criminals. But because they are godless. This is a huge problem. The options provided should be things we can do, but our motives need to be our own. This necessary requires that those motives never get spelled out on screen, but that's vastly better than limiting us to the pair of options the writers came up with. This is why DAO remains the best DA game so far.
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Post by duskwanderer on May 31, 2018 21:58:40 GMT
Hey, I loved Baldur's Gate, but that was only a 30 hour game. SoA+ToB was about 40. Then again, the prices were lower. I think I only spent $30 on BGII when it came out new. Not if you did everything. Critical path only, then maybe (though BG did a masterful job of concealing the critical path). I didn't play BG until the EE came out (though I did own it. My brother beat it). It was just too clunky and unusable, and by the time I had a PC good enough, I was playing SoA instead.
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Post by duskwanderer on May 31, 2018 22:00:21 GMT
3.) Making a choice over another (even if the choice is distinct) ascribes a motivation to the PC that I don't follow. Dragon Age 2 was really bad with this. If you wanted to side against the Arishok, you had to subscribe to the belief that the Qunari are bad because they are non-Andrastian heathens. Not because they attacked me during the Ketojan quest. Not because they are harboring criminals. But because they are godless. This is a huge problem. The options provided should be things we can do, but our motives need to be our own. This necessary requires that those motives never get spelled out on screen, but that's vastly better than limiting us to the pair of options the writers came up with. This is why DAO remains the best DA game so far. Eh, I think DA:0 really lost impact after the Origin itself.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 1, 2018 4:40:08 GMT
I didn't play BG until the EE came out (though I did own it. My brother beat it). It was just too clunky and unusable, and by the time I had a PC good enough, I was playing SoA instead. I think EE kind of ruins BG. It takes a lot of the "improvements" in BG2 and applies them, even though they change how the game is played (I don't recall whether EE fixes what was my only real complaint about BG, which was that the Cleric spell Command should have been No Save). The increased walking speed makes the maps feel smaller, and reduces the effectiveness of range as a combat tactic. It also makes navigating narrow dungeons more annoying. It also forces the game to pause when it shouldn't. Looking at the map, for example, didn't pause BG, but it does in EE. Inventory also pauses EE, but in BG opening your inventory actually unpaused the game, discouraging you from digging through your pack in dangerous areas. BioWare got the CRPG just about perfect with BG. Not quite. There are aspects of NWN, KotOR, DAO and DAI which are better, but BG was the first new addition to my all-time top 5 games list since Ultima Underworld.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 1, 2018 4:45:10 GMT
Eh, I think DA:0 really lost impact after the Origin itself. I argued during development, and I maintain today, that the origins were a mistake, so that they mostly stop being explicitly relevant as soon as they're over I count as a win. Some of the origins are really well done, but I would still rather craft my character's initial background entirely from scratch (as I could in NWN and KotOR) rather than choose among a limited selection. I do love the Mage origin, and I often use scenes from it as an example of how much better the silent protagonist was, but I think the game could have done without the origins.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2018 9:18:13 GMT
This is a huge problem. The options provided should be things we can do, but our motives need to be our own. This necessary requires that those motives never get spelled out on screen, but that's vastly better than limiting us to the pair of options the writers came up with. This is why DAO remains the best DA game so far. Eh, I think DA:0 really lost impact after the Origin itself. Yeah because the other games dilated and polluted the grounds of DA:O...
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 1, 2018 17:31:26 GMT
That doesn't sound like a very sensible response to what duskwanderer said.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2018 23:10:37 GMT
That doesn't sound like a very sensible response to what duskwanderer said. you might think so but it's a true enough statement.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 1, 2018 23:24:41 GMT
"INSTEAD OF MAKING A 100-150 HOURS GAME, MAKE A 50H WHERE CHOICES REALLY MATTER."
I'd basically be fine with this.
A game that's too long is a game I try to avoid. Persona 5 was one such game. It went on for so long that I frankly didn't enjoy it, though I recognize that it's a good game. I'd prefer playing an RPG where you play about 40 or 50 hours of it and at the end, you can play another playthrough at your leisure. Simple as that.
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ames4u
N3
and so, we limp back into activity
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 280 Likes: 656
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ames4u
and so, we limp back into activity
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Jan 31, 2017 21:29:42 GMT
January 2017
ames4u
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ames4u on Jun 8, 2018 16:10:28 GMT
Just for some clarification. 1-i'm not suggesting that EVERY choice needs to have a huge impact, neither that EVERY quest needs to have different outcomes, also i'm not suggesting that if you choose to side with faction A instead of B, the whole rest of the game will be completelly diferent. 2-When i'm saying get rid of filler content, i'm not saying to have 0 side quests, i'm saying to have 0 meaningless side (or main) quests, Witcher 2 and 3 and other games have a lot of amazing side quests, that don't involve farming herbs or closing portals. 3-I know that those side quets (farming, killing, gathering...) are optional, but they take away time and resources, i would like them to use those to improve and expand the BEST parts of the game, storytelling and character development. 4-I understand that the exponential mechanic can easily explode into way more content and being time consuming, but i'm asking for it to be proportional to the effort that they put in "bad content", i don't know if i was clear but basically i want they to trade 100 hours of useless content into 100 hours of good content, or like X months of work, developing those fillers, side quests, bad main quests, objectives, dialogue, voice acting, world building, into X months of developing the things we all love. 2 points: One: getting rid of the "meaningless" side quests does not mean you'd get more content you want: development just doesn't work that way. Eliminating fetch quests does not mean you'd get more cinematic quests for example. Resources aren't entirely interchangeble - DAI for example, the environment artist were easily able to produce big, beautiful areas, while the animation department was strugling making scenes in the game. However you can't just move environment artists over to the animation team, they have different skill sets. You could argue that maybe they should have hired more animaters and less environment artists, but that's easy to say in hindsight. It can be hard to predict where the problems are going to pop up, and therefore where the resources are needed to go. If working out this stuff was easy, crunch wouldn't be a thing. Two: No dev sets out to make bad content. Things might go wrong in development and they may have to cut back to what they wanted to do, or the thing they spent many resources on just ended up not fun but no dev did it intentionally. With this in mind, how are you meant to know from the start that the content is going to turn out bad or not? And therefore know in hindsight you should put resources in this direction instead?
It's easy to say cut back from a 100 hr game to 50 hr game, and then the 50 hr game content will be so much better. But that is in no way guaranteed. It's more complicated then that. DAI is actually a great example of this. Sticking to the main quests in DAI is about a 40-50 hr experience, the extra fetch quests push it to about a 100 hr. However given what we know about the development, getting rid of those "extra" quests wouldn't have meant more main quests - they were having dificulty with the tools which meant they couldn't make those parts faster, or a larger quantity. What's the point in getting rid of them when it wouldn't mean more of the meatier part of the game and there are people that like them? There's no real benefit to getting rid of them.
They may not set out to make Bad Content, but they do set out to pad the runtime. Hence the b-tch quests, timed war table missions and trying to navigate up hills to collect pointless shinies only to be catapulted across the map because 'reason's. The first few times it's hilarious, the third time onwards? Annoying and frustrating. Every map in DAI devolved into this. It served only to test my patience not enhance the gameplay.
As I stated in a previous post, Bioware is focusing in all the wrong areas. They should be making areas like Orlais more complex and fascinating, not a big empty wasteland in the desert. Some choices should have an impact on the story progression and some should feed into how other tasks later in the game can be approached or dealt with. Countless times I was deceived into thinking a choice in Inquisition was going to have some form of a knock on affect further down the line (choosing to have a few templars on standby should the mages fall prey to demons) but not a damn thing came of it.
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