TheodoricFriede
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Mar 5, 2018 6:51:30 GMT
I also just appreciate that Dragon Age has consistently changed protagonists. It means I dont have to constantly wonder if my preferred love interest is coming back, or will have enough time in the game.
The only way I would ever want the Inquisitor back is if it was in the style of Dragon Age Origins, and I got to choose if my Player Character was the Warden, Hawke, or The Inquisitor.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Mar 5, 2018 15:18:52 GMT
120 hours of collecting shards, occularum, astrariums, mosaic pieces, bottles, other bottles, and whatever crap your party members want you to find doesn't make your game a game for "driven gamers" unless your goal is to drive them to insanity. They allow choice of who your character is. Do they hunt treasure and history? Do they enjoy puzzles? Do they only focus on the task at hand? Sorry, but those quests are a great aid in character development. It just isn’t spelled out for you in black and white. Find that a lot in Inquisition. So much depth, but they don’t plaster it all in neon signs. The devs expected the players to dig for it. I did and I found the most intricate, complex, and well built world in gaming, and possibly entertainment in general. All because of the little details so many dismiss as irrelevant. And I was given control to make an Inquisitor based on simple choices such as “fetch” quests. There was meaning in each quest. You just missed it. I feel like I've seen this before... Choosing not to go hunting after useless bottles is now considered as character development. Lol And apparently so is leaving a particular quest to rot on your journal just because you don't feel like fetching an object for the 100th time. Wow, so much depth.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 5, 2018 20:24:46 GMT
But... there were a lot of choices in DA:I that changed quite a few details. I guess many here ate simply plot driven and don’t care for the breadth not depth of tbe character driven choices offered. There are not a lot of games that can be held ip to Inquisition when it comes to affecting characters and relationships. Hell, the import differences for characters and their details are astounding. Guess DA is just a franchise for character driven gamers. Though, that is all of Bioware really. Gods of character driven games. No one comes close to them. Actually this is a good point but I think it applies more to DA 2 even then DA I. What I found fascinating about the choices in DA I is that it applies in theory, or to the setting at all. We may never actually see these choices pay off (after all the next game will likely be set in the far North) and we only saw those choices matter in DA Is narrative kind of vaguely, but the Inquisitor really could have a huge effect on the Setting of Thedas. Which was quite amazing, I am not complaining. Hell, the import differences for characters and their details are astounding. Guess DA is just a franchise for character driven gamers. Though, that is all of Bioware really. Gods of character driven games. No one comes close to them. 120 hours of collecting shards, occularum, astrariums, mosaic pieces, bottles, other bottles, and whatever crap your party members want you to find doesn't make your game a game for "driven gamers" unless your goal is to drive them to insanity. I know sarcasm is kind of your MO (mine too at times), but what you describe is a small part of the overall game which is easily ignorable. There is a lot more to do in the game then just that. For instance I rarely do any of that and my play throughs usually clock in between 80-100 hours. So, by your claim, if doing all of that gives you about 120 hours that is only an additional 20 hours of content, which means that non collection quests make up 83 % of DA I (granted there will be some variance). And since everything you mentioned is easily ignorable and does not really effect the game in the slightest if you choose to pursue them its your own damn fault and you have no one to blame but yourself. I know DA I had its problems, I know side quests was even one of them, but such blatant hyperbole is really unhelpful. I mean really, that is all you did for 120 hours?
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Post by themikefest on Mar 5, 2018 20:39:23 GMT
I for one would love to play as the Inquisitor back with a fancy new prosthetic arm. Dagna or Bianca could definitely cook up something fun for any class. That or kill a giant, take its arm and attach it to the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor now has the smash skill tree.
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floratheelf
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Post by floratheelf on Mar 5, 2018 20:46:27 GMT
My first complete play through for DAI was a little over 100 hours and I thoroughly enjoyed every hour of it. After playing DAO I can tell the difference between how drastically you can shape the world around you, but I understand the game's limitations as it goes forward. I'm sure I'm the minority, but I loved the astrariums and collecting the mosiacs and seeing them piece together, collecting the shards and entering the temple (but maybe just the first time ). I think considering all the player choices at this point, Bioware does a good job at trying to take them all into account. I was introduced to DA from Inquisition, and one of the many things that completely glued me to it was the player options. I then went back to play DAO and I can see how that game alone completely spoiled us.
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TheodoricFriede
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Mar 5, 2018 22:07:52 GMT
I know DA I had its problems, I know side quests was even one of them, but such blatant hyperbole is really unhelpful. I mean really, that is all you did for 120 hours? It certainly felt that way.
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Post by q5tyhj on Mar 5, 2018 22:48:26 GMT
For instance I rarely do any of that and my play throughs usually clock in between 80-100 hours. Same. I've never bothered with shards or ocularum or mosaics or bottles, and my playthroughs are pretty much always well over 100 hours (with Jaws and Trespasser, no Descent). If you don't like the side quests, just don't do them.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 5, 2018 22:53:36 GMT
For instance I rarely do any of that and my play throughs usually clock in between 80-100 hours. Same. I've never bothered with shards or ocularum or mosaics or bottles, and my playthroughs are pretty much always well over 100 hours (with Jaws and Trespasser, no Descent). If you don't like the side quests, just don't do them. I only did the Shards once which was my longest non DLC pt which oddly enough I think was the same time as one of my PTS with all the DLC. I only did enough of the astraeiums to get the best fire runes.
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 5, 2018 22:58:41 GMT
They allow choice of who your character is. Do they hunt treasure and history? Do they enjoy puzzles? Do they only focus on the task at hand? Sorry, but those quests are a great aid in character development. It just isn’t spelled out for you in black and white. Find that a lot in Inquisition. So much depth, but they don’t plaster it all in neon signs. The devs expected the players to dig for it. I did and I found the most intricate, complex, and well built world in gaming, and possibly entertainment in general. All because of the little details so many dismiss as irrelevant. And I was given control to make an Inquisitor based on simple choices such as “fetch” quests. There was meaning in each quest. You just missed it. I feel like I've seen this before... Choosing not to go hunting after useless bottles is now considered as character development. Lol And apparently so is leaving a particular quest to rot on your journal just because you don't feel like fetching an object for the 100th time. Wow, so much depth. You’re metagaming more than roleplaying it seems.
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Post by Rochrok on Mar 5, 2018 23:09:26 GMT
I also think they should reduce the world size. Having a large world means nothing if most of it is blank. Jimquisition just gave a review on Yakuza 0 and the main thing he praised was the amount of content packed into the small map they have. So far I've been watching some streamers play it and the world doesn't even seem that small because you're always meeting interesting people and have great experiences. The world is just very lively.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Mar 5, 2018 23:35:52 GMT
I feel like I've seen this before... Choosing not to go hunting after useless bottles is now considered as character development. Lol And apparently so is leaving a particular quest to rot on your journal just because you don't feel like fetching an object for the 100th time. Wow, so much depth. You’re metagaming more than roleplaying it seems. I can roleplay, I just don't want to spend a great portion of a game trying to come up with excuses for poor quest design. "So, if my character goes looking for this druffalo, it means that they are a person who like to spend their time doing trivial things while the world is ending." Also, I am the type of person who doesn't like protagonists to be complete blank slates, for example. I know there are players that like to imagine huge backstories and personalities for their characters (even if the game doesn't support it, or even contradicts it) but I'm just not that type of player. I like to roleplay in the sense that I need exposure, a lot of it. I need to be given choices, dialogue options, etc. and see characters act accordingly on screen. I'm a "show, don't tell" kind of player. For instances, the Lavellan clan being murdered on a war table mission that the Inquisitor doesn't even react to. I can pretend that after finding out, my Lavellan cried herself to sleep or even found comfort on the arms of her lover, but honestly, that is not why I play games. If I want to imagine a story on my head, I'd rather read books, or write them. When I say I see no depth in fetching blankets, killing rams or whatever is not because I don't see why my character might want to do or not do those things, it's because of the way those quests are presented and executed. They are as barebones as they can be.
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 6, 2018 0:47:44 GMT
You’re metagaming more than roleplaying it seems. I can roleplay, I just don't want to spend a great portion of a game trying to come up with excuses for poor quest design. "So, if my character goes looking for this druffalo, it means that they are a person who like to spend their time doing trivial things while the world is ending." Also, I am the type of person who doesn't like protagonists to be complete blank slates, for example. I know there are players that like to imagine huge backstories and personalities for their characters (even if the game doesn't support it, or even contradicts it) but I'm just not that type of player. I like to roleplay in the sense that I need exposure, a lot of it. I need to be given choices, dialogue options, etc. and see characters act accordingly on screen. I'm a "show, don't tell" kind of player. For instances, the Lavellan clan being murdered on a war table mission that the Inquisitor doesn't even react to. I can pretend that after finding out, my Lavellan cried herself to sleep or even found comfort on the arms of her lover, but honestly, that is not why I play games. If I want to imagine a story on my head, I'd rather read books, or write them. When I say I see no depth in fetching blankets, killing rams or whatever is not because I don't see why my character might want to do or not do those things, it's because of the way those quests are presented and executed. They are as barebones as they can be. You get a lot of meaningful choice and content, at peast by your preference, outside of the quests. Those “fetch” quests are a tiny portion of the game and offer the chance to blank slate RPers to mold or explore their character without direct feedback. The balance was quite masterful actually. You get the judgements, companion dialogue, main quest choices and then you get Skyhold and clothing customisation, choice to do war table and how to do them, and a myriad of smaller quests that lets RPers deepen their character details without the game defining them. No game even comes close to giving the player that much control in role playing while still creating a story driven by its characters.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 6, 2018 1:33:54 GMT
lets RPers deepen their character details without the game defining them ...but also without the game reflecting them. It'd be one thing if the Inquisitor developed a habit as a helpful sort by doing certain numbers of missions, or was shown preferring Fereldan culture to Orlesian if you chose to spend more time in that country, or what have you, but ultimately, it's still just the Inquisitor as a character barely existing outside the player's head.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 6, 2018 3:38:49 GMT
You’re metagaming more than roleplaying it seems. I can roleplay, I just don't want to spend a great portion of a game trying to come up with excuses for poor quest design. "So, if my character goes looking for this druffalo, it means that they are a person who like to spend their time doing trivial things while the world is ending." Also, I am the type of person who doesn't like protagonists to be complete blank slates, for example. I know there are players that like to imagine huge backstories and personalities for their characters (even if the game doesn't support it, or even contradicts it) but I'm just not that type of player. I like to roleplay in the sense that I need exposure, a lot of it. I need to be given choices, dialogue options, etc. and see characters act accordingly on screen. I'm a "show, don't tell" kind of player. For instances, the Lavellan clan being murdered on a war table mission that the Inquisitor doesn't even react to. I can pretend that after finding out, my Lavellan cried herself to sleep or even found comfort on the arms of her lover, but honestly, that is not why I play games. If I want to imagine a story on my head, I'd rather read books, or write them. When I say I see no depth in fetching blankets, killing rams or whatever is not because I don't see why my character might want to do or not do those things, it's because of the way those quests are presented and executed. They are as barebones as they can be. Almost anything can be used as an opprotunity for role playing and adding your own spin on the games events. For instance in DA I both my Inquisitors would attack Griffon Wing Keep before taking on Adamant. To them it was a vita staging ground for their own forces and their own eventual assault on Adamant. Did the game say anything on this subject? No. Or in the original Mass Effect Cameron Shepard was a bit more of an explorer so he did all the anomolies on each one of the UNC worlds first, where Abigail was more practical so she did the actual side missions first and then looped around to get the anomolies and then in later pts she ignored them period. Etc. lets RPers deepen their character details without the game defining them ...but also without the game reflecting them. It'd be one thing if the Inquisitor developed a habit as a helpful sort by doing certain numbers of missions, or was shown preferring Fereldan culture to Orlesian if you chose to spend more time in that country, or what have you, but ultimately, it's still just the Inquisitor as a character barely existing outside the player's head. For an RPG is this...neccessarily a bad thing? I mean yes I do prefer my characters with a little bit of definition from the authors/ game devs working on a project, the more firm the launching point the better I find my ability to role play with a character (IE Hawk or the Ryders) but that is not the only school of thought out there and some people enjoy having as blank slate as possible for role playing so they can create a characrer. And yes, imo, the Inquisitor might be the best example of the blank slate approach I know in gaming because so much of the Inquisitor's motivations is up to the players ideals.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 6, 2018 4:11:07 GMT
For an RPG is this...neccessarily a bad thing? I mean yes I do prefer my characters with a little bit of definition from the authors/ game devs working on a project, the more firm the launching point the better I find my ability to role play with a character (IE Hawk or the Ryders) but that is not the only school of thought out there and some people enjoy having as blank slate as possible for role playing so they can create a characrer. And yes, imo, the Inquisitor might be the best example of the blank slate approach I know in gaming because so much of the Inquisitor's motivations is up to the players ideals. It doesn't have to be, but in Inquisition it is, in part, probably, because of the presence of a voiced protagonist (though that's just a guess). Certainly, in DA1, for example, you didn't have much definition either. You picked a "personality" that would define a few action lines and a rough voice for your character, but dialogue was silent, and could be fitted to the player's liking. Not to mention the number of options the player had in how missions played out meant that a character's personality was well-defined by their actions. In Inquisition, actual options are few and far between, outside of "do the mission/don't do the mission". The player is very limited in terms of ways to actually inject the Inquisitor's personality into the events. It gets to the point where it really isn't roleplaying, because whatever "role" you want for your Quizzie, you're in no real position to act it out.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 6, 2018 4:13:27 GMT
For an RPG is this...neccessarily a bad thing? I mean yes I do prefer my characters with a little bit of definition from the authors/ game devs working on a project, the more firm the launching point the better I find my ability to role play with a character (IE Hawk or the Ryders) but that is not the only school of thought out there and some people enjoy having as blank slate as possible for role playing so they can create a characrer. And yes, imo, the Inquisitor might be the best example of the blank slate approach I know in gaming because so much of the Inquisitor's motivations is up to the players ideals. It doesn't have to be, but in Inquisition it is, in part, probably, because of the presence of a voiced protagonist (though that's just a guess). Certainly, in DA1, for example, you didn't have much definition either. You picked a "personality" that would define a few action lines and a rough voice for your character, but dialogue was silent, and could be fitted to the player's liking. Not to mention the number of options the player had in how missions played out meant that a character's personality was well-defined by their actions. In Inquisition, actual options are few and far between, outside of "do the mission/don't do the mission". The player is very limited in terms of ways to actually inject the Inquisitor's personality into the events. It gets to the point where it really isn't roleplaying, because whatever "role" you want for your Quizzie, you're in no real position to act it out. Ah, back to this argument I see.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 6, 2018 4:15:13 GMT
Ah, back to this argument I see. I can't speak for anyone else, but isn't that the crux of this whole topic? That simply leaving quests undone does not a personality or a world define?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 6, 2018 4:24:43 GMT
Ah, back to this argument I see. I can't speak for anyone else, but isn't that the crux of this whole topic? That simply leaving quests undone does not a personality or a world define? Not by itself no but then again neither does making a series of purely binary or even trinary choices to finish a quest. Both things can help define a character, their personality, their motivations, help flesh them out in general...and yes as I have acknolwed this is one area in Inquisition which it did lag behind in, even several other games like Andromeda... But, in the end everything your character does, every consious choice the player makes both internally and in a meta sense can effect a character's role playing. This can be from the simple choices you make in dialogue (should I be a sarcastic dick or should I be polite?) to which quests you do, to when you do them, to the big choices you make in the quests (Gaspard or Celene or Briala?) The problem is with the latter option though and the games that heavily rely upon them for their role playing (lie games with 'morality systems' or the Witcher series) is it often feels like you are building a house without a foundation. Sure you can chose good or evil, renegade or paragon, dick or angel, but you lose a lot of the little decisions that can be as important, or more important even, then those big grand set piece choices.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 6, 2018 4:30:41 GMT
This can be from the simple choices you make in dialogue (should I be a sarcastic dick or should I be polite?) ...which right there is a problem because there's little-to-no variance in most bits of Inquisition dialogue. This comes back to the purpose of a game being to play the game, though. If the "option" is "ignore part of it", then that's at least poor design of the game itself, if not the story.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 6, 2018 4:45:39 GMT
This can be from the simple choices you make in dialogue (should I be a sarcastic dick or should I be polite?) ...which right there is a problem because there's little-to-no variance in most bits of Inquisition dialogue. This comes back to the purpose of a game being to play the game, though. If the "option" is "ignore part of it", then that's at least poor design of the game itself, if not the story. There isn't as much variation in DA 2...which people complained about...or MEA...which people complained about, I agree. But there was plenty, they were trying to go for subtley, they didn't entirely succeed but the dialogue basically follows the DA 2 formula middle sarcasm/ dry wit, top diplomatic, bottom more aggressive. Ah DA I sometimes when I talk about you I am amazed you are my favorite game ever... Do you always one hundred percent all of your RPGs each time you play them? I don't. In fact I find this a problem in RPGs in general. All of them have quests or chains of quests or little tasks I don't do, especially on later PTs. Robert Ryder didn't do a lot of the tasks, I never really did most of the treassure hunts in Witcher and most of the quests in Skyrim are just boring. But, when I was first getting into RPGs years ago I read an article on Skyrim suggesting that you should not do everything and tailor your quest lines specifically to your character. This A. encourages replaybility and B. encourages role playing. You may not, for instance, be a thief that would join the honorable companions. It is the same basic principle in Inquisition. Doing a quest for providing blankets for cold people could provide a wealth of role playing opprotunities: Is your character a good person? Is your character trying to absolve guilt over a previous misdeed? Is your character a manipulative politician who is trying to build a support base and get the people of Fereldan to be dependant on you? Or if you did not do it is your character lazy? Do they not care? Do they figure someone else will help and they have more important things to do? Do they 'assign someone' to provide the blankets (this is a headcanon solution but its still viable if you want to really be deep)? And yes, you would say "but the game does not reflect that!" but again, at least in Inquisition's case, that is ultimately up to the player. If someone is a good person for instance wouldn't they also chose the good dilogue options (the top one) or would they be sarcastic? Would they eventually become disenchanted with events and start choosing more bottom or aggressive choices? RPGs ultimatley seem to be a spectrum to me, on one side of it you have games like Origins or Inquisition which give you mostly a blank slate that you can put your own thought into, how successful you are probably depends on how engaging you are with the game and the protagonist character, I love Inquisition in spite of its flaws so I put a great deal of thought into my roleplaying, I know this is probably where the disconnect is. On the other side of the equation you have The Witcher 3 which gives you virtually zero control over your character because Geralt is pre defined via the books.
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Post by davkar on Mar 6, 2018 8:39:29 GMT
For my first 5 pts I did everything properly. And after the 3rd time it was just so fokin boring. You can rp as a wine connoisseur or an art collector, but the gameplay implementations are tedious. And since one of the selling points of a DA(/any BW) game is the replay value these task should feel less of a chore and more of a unique experience. Collecting mysterious shards for a face paint? Meh. Then there are the unnecessary areas. Hissing wastes is a nice map but there's no point going there other than the 1st pt since there is nothing story related thing there. The warden hunt on the storm coast (another nice map btw); 2 hours+ of running up and down the hills for an information that we get during the main quest anyway. Other than that the sole purpose of the map is the Bull quest. If you pick the templars there's no story reason to visit emerald and emprise. By skipping the meaningless content (and using CE) I managed to reduce my DAI pts to 30-40 hours from the initial 100-ish and the subsequent ~70-80. This is the core experience which is still good and this DA chapter works much better as a tighter game. (Also fok the golden halla. Another prime example of a 'never again' side quest. )
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Post by river82 on Mar 6, 2018 8:54:06 GMT
Then there are the unnecessary areas. Hissing wastes is a nice map but there's no point going there other than the 1st pt since there is nothing story related thing there. The warden hunt on the storm coast (another nice map btw); 2 hours+ of running up and down the hills for an information that we get during the main quest anyway. Other than that the sole purpose of the map is the Bull quest. If you pick the templars there's no story reason to visit emerald and emprise. They should have shed at least 2 areas to bulk up Val Royeaux, a city that was laughably underdeveloped.
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helios969
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
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helios969
No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Mar 6, 2018 10:49:23 GMT
I would say rather than having choices matter (though I do wish to see them culminate in a satisfying conclusion) I'd prefer for Bioware to make my RP-experience matter. I want companions and NPC's to react to the personality I craft...I thought DA2 did the best in this regard. While I agree with others that playable origin stories are never going to be a thing again, there's no reason the writers cannot craft some background that is reflected...a bitter city elf, a Saarebas hermit, an ambitious Magister... As for the 100 hours of filler content, I don't really mind so long as it doesn't come at the expense of the RP-experience or a well crafted story...those things should be prioritized above all.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 6, 2018 12:07:05 GMT
Not going to bother quoting people, but I want to add that choosing whether to do something or not do something, or deciding to ignore a dialogue option, can absolutely be a part of roleplay. People make those sort of decisions about mundane things every day. It just happens that in the game we're about saving the world.
For instance, there are a few times in the game where I completely disregard a dialogue option. I don't ask Dorian if he and Felix were involved; he just learned about his friend's death, so it's not something my Inquisitor would ask in the moment. Similarly, during the Halward scene, I also don't ask him to clarify; as he's my Inquisitor's romance and they've been flirting, it's rather obvious that Dorian likes men at that point. If I did take that dialogue path, I also would not ask Dorian whether he had ever been with a woman, because I don't deem it appropriate right there in front of his father. I also don't ask Leliana whether she and Justinia were involved, nor pick the options with Krem during the Chargers meeting.
When I used to play World of Warcraft, there was quite a lengthy thread on those forums concerning a particular quest where you torture someone for information. Some people refused to do it, even though this quest is part of a chain that opens up a further quest hub and not doing it is a disadvantage during that portion of the game.
For me, some of it has to do with appropriateness in the moment, as with the Dorian questions, and others because my Inquisitor wouldn't ask such personal questions of someone he barely knows. If it means I forever lose access to certain dialogue options, then so be it. I've done this in all three games to varying degrees. In DAO, after having played through the game once and having a greater understanding of things, I no longer felt it was necessary to ask the noob questions that a character should know (they're there for the benefit of the player); the dwarf noble should not need to ask about noble hunters*. Picking the order of conversation can also be done for roleplay reasons, which I usually do with investigate dialogues.
* People can use whatever RP reason they like for asking or not asking certain questions. This is my own view for my own characters.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Mar 6, 2018 13:38:41 GMT
That's not how video game development works. A vague "make choices matter more" has nothing to do with the amount of content.
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