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Post by Element Zero on Apr 22, 2018 2:52:12 GMT
I think the “benefactor” note was a red herring. Plenty of people have benefactors. Not all of them are the Benefactor. I just can’t see any viable, non-corny connection. Or not. Imagine if the kett were created as something to fight the Reapers? Then they went astray and we had something that backfired. Sort of like how the Intelligence itself backfired on the Leviathan. No offense at all intended, but that would qualify as a corny stretch for me. That’s what I mean by viable, non-corny reaches— I see no good ones. Tastes vary, of course; and mine is not more valid than yours. I hope we get to learn the truth of the matter some day, whatever it might prove to be.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2018 3:13:57 GMT
Or not. Imagine if the kett were created as something to fight the Reapers? Then they went astray and we had something that backfired. Sort of like how the Intelligence itself backfired on the Leviathan. No offense at all intended, but that would qualify as a corny stretch for me. That’s what I mean by viable, non-corny reaches— I see no good ones. Tastes vary, of course; and mine is not more valid than yours. I hope we get to learn the truth of the matter some day, whatever it might prove to be. I was just trying to find a link between MET and MEA. I can't remember why, but back before MEA came out (or shortly after, perhaps?) there was talk about the AI eventually being able to link back to the MW. How would that happen? Anyway, I might be misremembering or it could be discussion rather than anything concrete. Also, corny is probably the best we'll ever get. There was a lot of corny stuff throughout the entire MET. Not sure why you'd expect it to stop now.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 22, 2018 3:29:01 GMT
No offense at all intended, but that would qualify as a corny stretch for me. That’s what I mean by viable, non-corny reaches— I see no good ones. Tastes vary, of course; and mine is not more valid than yours. I hope we get to learn the truth of the matter some day, whatever it might prove to be. I was just trying to find a link between MET and MEA. I can't remember why, but back before MEA came out (or shortly after, perhaps?) there was talk about the AI eventually being able to link back to the MW. How would that happen? Anyway, I might be misremembering or it could be discussion rather than anything concrete. Also, corny is probably the best we'll ever get. There was a lot of corny stuff throughout the entire MET. Not sure why you'd expect it to stop now. Haha! Sad but true. The Miranda Ass-cam immediately comes to mind. She's a good character that's cheapened by such nonsense. I think the long-term goal of connecting Heleus with the MW, specifically for commercial purposes, was outlined on the real world MEA Ai website. That was a fun bit of clever marketing. It was fun to watch the "course material". (I'm using my hard-earned Andromeda Elite Helmet at present on my Level-19 Scott.) I'm not sure if the hoped to build a connecting relay or develop some new tech in Andromeda. Maybe they hoped the extra 634 years on the MW side would allow plenty of time to develop options? Ultimately, it seems running from the Reapers and getting SAM out into the universe were the real goals. Who knows how much of the rest was pure propaganda? People always find a way. Eventually, someone will reconnect the sundered groups.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 3:42:14 GMT
Here's how:
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 22, 2018 4:16:20 GMT
Here's how: While I disagree with this approach, I do think the gif is excellent. 😆
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Post by guanxi on Apr 22, 2018 6:17:56 GMT
Shouldn't we answer the "why" before jumping into the "how"? Well mr. contrarian because as riveting & memorable as they CLEARLY are, any hypothetical new game will apparently be a fresh and exciting new take on the franchise and they certainly aren't that are they? Come on now. Considering that ME:A is pretty goddamn toxic, and Kett are synonymous with it it's a pretty safe assumption on our part that BioWare will be moving on from the boneheads to pastures new. I hope to Christ they do for the sake of the franchise (or what's left of it).
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 6:54:10 GMT
Well, at least you're trying.
But if we grant your premises, the discussion is pointless. The more effort we put into answering "how to remove the kett," the more we just call attention to something that you think needs to be swept under the rug. The logic of your position is that a dopey handwave will do, and then we just hope that whatever the new writers come up with distracts everybody from how we got here.
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Post by guanxi on Apr 22, 2018 7:30:02 GMT
Well, at least you're trying. But if we grant your premises, the discussion is pointless. The more effort we put into answering "how to remove the kett," the more we just call attention to something that you think needs to be swept under the rug. The logic of your position is that a dopey handwave will do, and then we just hope that whatever the new writers come up with distracts everybody from how we got here. Pretty much. It's going to be fun to see how they dig themselves out of this one Kett or no. Coming up with a larger threat that trivializes the Kett seems logical. However last time they dug themselves into a whole this big their solution was to move the setting to frickin Andromeda they may just blank slate the series and start over which is what I'd probably do If I was faced with reviving the series again at this point.
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 22, 2018 13:55:58 GMT
I think the “benefactor” note was a red herring. Plenty of people have benefactors. Not all of them are the Benefactor. I just can’t see any viable, non-corny connection. Yes, there have been gazillion benefactors throughout history. It is just a term. I hope.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 22, 2018 14:27:03 GMT
Here's how: I like it!😉
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2018 16:05:17 GMT
I think the “benefactor” note was a red herring. Plenty of people have benefactors. Not all of them are the Benefactor. I just can’t see any viable, non-corny connection. Yes, there have been gazillion benefactors throughout history. It is just a term. I hope. Seems too coincidental.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 17:02:20 GMT
Yes, there have been gazillion benefactors throughout history. It is just a term. I hope. Seems too coincidental. It's not like ME hasn't relied on ridiculous coincidences in the past. So sure, why not again?
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Post by sil on Apr 22, 2018 17:08:56 GMT
Well, at least you're trying. But if we grant your premises, the discussion is pointless. The more effort we put into answering "how to remove the kett," the more we just call attention to something that you think needs to be swept under the rug. The logic of your position is that a dopey handwave will do, and then we just hope that whatever the new writers come up with distracts everybody from how we got here. Pretty much. It's going to be fun to see how they dig themselves out of this one Kett or no. Coming up with a larger threat that trivializes the Kett seems logical. However last time they dug themselves into a whole this big their solution was to move the setting to frickin Andromeda they may just blank slate the series and start over which is what I'd probably do If I was faced with reviving the series again at this point. In truth they don't need a civilisation ending threat to be a villain over the Kett, the best stories in ME tend to be those that involve smaller plots. We've already had a civilisation ending threat before, so it makes more sense to focus on local threats, the threat of another nation or religious/ideological conflicts as they can force different types of drama which help to prevent the series from repeating the same plots. However, the Jaardan had some kind of ancient enemy, so they're probably the big threat.
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Post by ahglock on Apr 22, 2018 18:32:11 GMT
Shouldn't we answer the "why" before jumping into the "how"? Well mr. contrarian because as riveting & memorable as they CLEARLY are, any hypothetical new game will apparently be a fresh and exciting new take on the franchise and they certainly aren't that are they? Come on now. Considering that ME:A is pretty goddamn toxic, and Kett are synonymous with it it's a pretty safe assumption on our part that BioWare will be moving on from the boneheads to pastures new. I hope to Christ they do for the sake of the franchise (or what's left of it). How engaging were the geth in ME1? Until you could learn more of there story in ME2 they were far far less personal and interesting than the Kett. beep boop shoot humans was pretty much it. look I think MEA started weaker in its setting and story and ME1, but I don't think the solution is to toss it, but to build on it. Because what was there wasn't bad it just wasn't developed enough.
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Post by guanxi on Apr 22, 2018 19:11:49 GMT
How engaging were the geth in ME1? Until you could learn more of there story in ME2 they were far far less personal and interesting than the Kett. beep boop shoot humans was pretty much it. look I think MEA started weaker in its setting and story and ME1, but I don't think the solution is to toss it, but to build on it. Because what was there wasn't bad it just wasn't developed enough. Good point well made. Although I would argue that they were merely Saren/Sovereign's hired henchmen at the time and could have been replaced with krogan, Batarian mercenaries or Kett and it wouldn't have affected the plot at all. I agree in so much that if the central narrative and cast of characters to service the plot in the next game is stronger it shouldn't matter who you shoot or toss around like rag dolls in principle as long as the core is solid. That said I did not ever buy them as a convincing threat which is a major stumbling block for me. In truth they don't need a civilisation ending threat to be a villain over the Kett, the best stories in ME tend to be those that involve smaller plots. We've already had a civilisation ending threat before, so it makes more sense to focus on local threats, the threat of another nation or religious/ideological conflicts as they can force different types of drama which help to prevent the series from repeating the same plots. However, the Jaardan had some kind of ancient enemy, so they're probably the big threat. I have always been more interested in the milky way inter-species internal/ geo-politics and would have much preferred the story to have been centered around the outlaw rebellion, Nexus Uprising would have been a more interesting concept for a Mass Effect game/story than MEA imo in hindsight. Perhaps Kett are more of a symptom of trying to apply the BioWare boiler-plate to a game-design philosophy it is at odds with and eschewing the overarching linear conventional BioWare big bad and moving towards a more character driven ME2 style collection of smaller stories on different worlds might be a better direction for the series that would offer more potential for role-playing and would be more compatible with free-roaming exploration at your own pace game-design and environmental storytelling they have been striving towards but falling short of lately.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 22, 2018 19:48:29 GMT
Well mr. contrarian because as riveting & memorable as they CLEARLY are, any hypothetical new game will apparently be a fresh and exciting new take on the franchise and they certainly aren't that are they? Come on now. Considering that ME:A is pretty goddamn toxic, and Kett are synonymous with it it's a pretty safe assumption on our part that BioWare will be moving on from the boneheads to pastures new. I hope to Christ they do for the sake of the franchise (or what's left of it). How engaging were the geth in ME1? Until you could learn more of there story in ME2 they were far far less personal and interesting than the Kett. beep boop shoot humans was pretty much it. look I think MEA started weaker in its setting and story and ME1, but I don't think the solution is to toss it, but to build on it. Because what was there wasn't bad it just wasn't developed enough. Exactly just flesh it out.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 22, 2018 21:14:01 GMT
Well mr. contrarian because as riveting & memorable as they CLEARLY are, any hypothetical new game will apparently be a fresh and exciting new take on the franchise and they certainly aren't that are they? Come on now. Considering that ME:A is pretty goddamn toxic, and Kett are synonymous with it it's a pretty safe assumption on our part that BioWare will be moving on from the boneheads to pastures new. I hope to Christ they do for the sake of the franchise (or what's left of it). How engaging were the geth in ME1? Until you could learn more of there story in ME2 they were far far less personal and interesting than the Kett. beep boop shoot humans was pretty much it. look I think MEA started weaker in its setting and story and ME1, but I don't think the solution is to toss it, but to build on it. Because what was there wasn't bad it just wasn't developed enough. The Geth were never the main villain though, they were always foot soldiers. The only reason they got fleshed out was to add some complexity to the Quarian/Geth conflict so it wasn't a black and white, Quarians good, Geth bad situation. Saren was the main antagonist, and he was using the Geth. Saren was fleshed out and engaging, almost tragic. He found out what was coming, and genuinely had good intentions in the beginning only to never realize he had become indoctrinated and was now a pawn. He was also one step ahead of you all game, offering you frustrations and setbacks. He murdered someone, bold faced lied about it and got away. He beat you to the cypher on Feros, and even though you stopped him on Virmire it cost you a squadmate, maybe two. Then he succeeded in letting Sovereign through to attack the Citadel. Finally depending on your dialogue choices he realizes he was wrong and was indoctrinated and breaks free for a moment. The reapers were built up as formidable from the start and you didn't know anything about them. Only that if one can do this, what would a thousand do? Same with the Collectors. I didn't know much about the Collectors other than they blew up my ship and killed me, and now I have to get stronger because I can't beat them as I am now. Now the Kett, their portrayal in the story cut their legs out. You overrun them and take what they're guarding in the prologue and they offer really no resistance to anything for the entire game until the very end. You took their facility from them and blew it up, while taking their prized prisoner. A handful of people ran them off of an entire planet for goodness sake. The Archon divided the Angaran leadership, turned them against each other, conquered some their worlds and has been in control of the cluster for decades, but he can't beat a handful of exiles, or a group who has about 50K people out of Cryo? They wouldn't just need to flesh the Kett out, they would have to rehab them in some way. Why not in the first scene, just have you find the vault first and then the Kett arrive, and if your father had to die, it could have been to Kett as he covered your escape. Now the Kett have shown they're strength, and they've killed your father.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 22, 2018 21:35:58 GMT
Shouldn't we answer the "why" before jumping into the "how"? Well mr. contrarian because as riveting & memorable as they CLEARLY are, any hypothetical new game will apparently be a fresh and exciting new take on the franchise and they certainly aren't that are they? Come on now. Considering that ME:A is pretty goddamn toxic, and Kett are synonymous with it it's a pretty safe assumption on our part that BioWare will be moving on from the boneheads to pastures new. I hope to Christ they do for the sake of the franchise (or what's left of it). Well, then wouldn’t the obvious solution here to simply start a new setting all over again? I’d prefer that over screwing with the current setting’s continuity. If they can’t be bothered to maintain any kind of continuity, then I’d say it’s better to just start over someplace else.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 22:47:22 GMT
Reboot/abandon is a reasonable answer to the OP's question, I guess.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 22, 2018 23:28:27 GMT
Reboot/abandon is a reasonable answer to the OP's question, I guess. And it’d be the biggest mistake ever.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2018 23:34:42 GMT
Sure. I'm on record as being a skeptic of the entire premise of the thread, so that works for me.
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Post by 10k on Apr 22, 2018 23:47:38 GMT
I'd just began where ME3 left off, and have the game not mention them. Problem solved.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 23, 2018 4:35:22 GMT
I was just trying to find a link between MET and MEA. I can't remember why, but back before MEA came out (or shortly after, perhaps?) there was talk about the AI eventually being able to link back to the MW. How would that happen? Anyway, I might be misremembering or it could be discussion rather than anything concrete. Also, corny is probably the best we'll ever get. There was a lot of corny stuff throughout the entire MET. Not sure why you'd expect it to stop now. Haha! Sad but true. The Miranda Ass-cam immediately comes to mind. She's a good character that's cheapened by such nonsense. I think the long-term goal of connecting Heleus with the MW, specifically for commercial purposes, was outlined on the real world MEA Ai website. That was a fun bit of clever marketing. It was fun to watch the "course material". (I'm using my hard-earned Andromeda Elite Helmet at present on my Level-19 Scott.) I'm not sure if the hoped to build a connecting relay or develop some new tech in Andromeda. Maybe they hoped the extra 634 years on the MW side would allow plenty of time to develop options? Ultimately, it seems running from the Reapers and getting SAM out into the universe were the real goals. Who knows how much of the rest was pure propaganda? People always find a way. Eventually, someone will reconnect the sundered groups. I think the point is: 1)In MEA we see that the AI started as a false dream and it notes some dark realities. 2)In a MEA2 we could see the dream come alive (so this includes a bridge to MW, along with the potentials of the new government and Meridian) while we address the dark realities (so this includes learning such things around the Reapers unless Bioware swears off it, and it includes SAM elaboration and some dangers).
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 23, 2018 4:46:50 GMT
1) I just need to say that the Kett shouldn't be written out and all I think shouldn't happen to them is that they're the main brutal antagonists of the next game. There's a lot that can be elaborated and made more interesting. Bioware has a need for the 'big bad' (to a fault) and they made Kett 'big bad' in ways that just didn't click. If they were more just part of the texture of the setting, and had more space to be interesting in addition to being dangerous, they'd be just fine. That said, I've come to resent their current architecture. Please next gen Mass Effect, please please don't keep Kett things so ugly and often very un-Mass Effecty. And yeah, one nice idea is that while exultation creates a love for their new status, I'd like for this to just be more of a built-in defense mechanism so the transformed don't get traumatized about their change. Perhaps there's kett that don't act so lock-step with the empire (already small hints of this), and its taken a civilization's influence and heavy early-age/transformation propaganda to keep things as they are - though not as heavily needed as the Batarians. Perhaps they can be the analogue to how religion isn't just benevolent believers or totalitarian leaders, but a mass commons of people who generally gladly go with a toxic status quo when there's always another way (that is - the kett can't let go of being kett, but their approach may be frankly unnecessary, and I'd like it if even their leaders don't realize this; a sort of mass delusion, but all the more delusional because they're not totally wrong).
2) Okay, to write them out, have them a minor NPC presence in the next game, include a bit where it seems they're distracted, and conveniently neglect in addressing them afterwards.
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Post by guanxi on Apr 23, 2018 5:21:15 GMT
1) I just need to say that the Kett shouldn't be written out and all I think shouldn't happen to them is that they're the main brutal antagonists of the next game. There's a lot that can be elaborated and made more interesting. Bioware has a need for the 'big bad' (to a fault) and they made Kett 'big bad' in ways that just didn't click. If they were more just part of the texture of the setting, and had more space to be interesting in addition to being dangerous, they'd be just fine. That said, I've come to resent their current architecture. Please next gen Mass Effect, please please don't keep Kett things so ugly and often very un-Mass Effecty. And yeah, one nice idea is that while exultation creates a love for their new status, I'd like for this to just be more of a built-in defense mechanism so the transformed don't get traumatized about their change. Perhaps there's kett that don't act so lock-step with the empire (already small hints of this), and its taken a civilization's influence and heavy early-age/transformation propaganda to keep things as they are - though not as heavily needed as the Batarians. Perhaps they can be the analogue to how religion isn't just benevolent believers or totalitarian leaders, but a mass commons of people who generally gladly go with a toxic status quo when there's always another way (that is - the kett can't let go of being kett, but their approach may be frankly unnecessary, and I'd like it if even their leaders don't realize this; a sort of mass delusion, but all the more delusional because they're not totally wrong). 2) Okay, to write them out, have them a minor NPC presence in the next game, include a bit where it seems they're distracted, and conveniently neglect in addressing them afterwards. Perhaps Kett implode from internal conflict and they have to turn their attention internally in order to salvage their civilization and the capture of Meridian by the colonists makes Helios eminently more defensible and not worth the effort. That would be a way in which the focus of the next game could move on from the Kett while developing them as a species with the emergence of different factions similarly to Geth in ME2. Perhaps the Green exaltation dudes & their boneheads are much like Geth 'Heretics' were and are simply a deranged cult that got out of hand and the rest of them are not the evil empire we think they are.
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