Cantina
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Post by Cantina on Jun 2, 2018 22:37:31 GMT
Open World Game: A game which takes place on a single map where the player does not have to go to any other area (a central hub) to access any other mission areas. Ex: The Elder Scrolls series (aside from ESO I believe) ,FO 4, Ghost Recon Wildlands. How does Inquisition fit this definition with its many distinct maps? What is your definition? Moreover the problem with calling Inquisition an Open World Game risks calling any game with multiple maps Open World Games. Like DAO, DA2, the MET, or even Call of Duty. Because the definition of Open World Game looses all useful meaning (a problem which comes up often it seems). Fine one can have the argument all day long about whether or not the maps were too 'large' and 'empty' as Laidlaw himself apparently invites but when talking about these issues we have to be very, very careful about the language we use and not to misuse it to avoid confusion. And if you were judging Dragon Age Inquisition as an open world game, like Skyrim, then no wonder you think the game failed since it would never match the kind of gameplay you'd have in Skyrim. (Even though I think Inquisition is the far superior game to Skyrim overall.) Perhaps you should tell Bioware that their game isn't open-world?
For aurgment sake, we will say the game is a linear game then with large open spaces. That doesn't change my view that it's sub-par when compared to DAO/DA2 in the area's I'm concerned with: story, characters, and dialog. I would even throw in Combat. The first three though are what concerns me the most. This only my opinion though. YMMV. Bioware has already stated it was not:
"Dragon Age: Inquisition isn’t open world, is “multi-region” says BioWare"
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Post by Cantina on Jun 2, 2018 22:39:42 GMT
It's very likely these people don't have recommended hardware or they're running into glitches. These videos are ancient. CDPR patched the hell out of the game. I've played on console without these troubles. Could be. I started playing it right at release and only saw one patch update. If people played after all those problems were patched out, that would explain the big differences in problems experienced. Witcher 3 has had numerous patch updates.
You might want to upgrade you game, could fix those loading scenes.
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Post by river82 on Jun 2, 2018 22:42:11 GMT
It seems like a solution that works is to download Battle Encoder Shirase and limit the Witcher 3 to 98% of CPU usage, and that should eliminate constant freezing. I might try that, I can live with the freezing but would prefer a smoother run. I don't really want to keep playing it on console.
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Post by phoray on Jun 2, 2018 22:51:09 GMT
I don't want it to be like I just popped into existence and events started happening to PC and nobody ever asks you what and who you were before. Whether people ask about my past has no bearing on whether that past occurred. If you make up literally everything in your head, why bother with the video game. Just write your own story in your head. Bonus of being free.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 2, 2018 23:14:48 GMT
Open World Game: A game which takes place on a single map where the player does not have to go to any other area (a central hub) to access any other mission areas. That's a much too restrictive definition, designed to exclude DAI. Horizon Zero Dawn has a hub, in fact it sequentially puts you in one hub then another, just like DAI. But you aren't restricted to travel to/from the hub, that is a very specific DAI design choice that Mike explained in the article. They wanted to insure that people didn't get too disconnected from the flow of the main quest in their random wandering, so they forced a return to the hub to allow "events" to occur to remind the player that main quest shit has to get done. He even mentions that Skyrim did not have such a forcing function and you could play the game for hours without ever getting "the shouts" (the way it was quoted made me giggle, because it sounds like "the shits"). Personally, I thought that was a great thing about Skyrim and I played many characters that never got the shouts, but I digress .... It's also a continuum. Even games that are considered linear, like Hellblade, have areas where you can roam freely and choose the order in which you do branching linear paths. It's silly to say DAI is not open world, given that the dev team was put under pressure to make DAI be a damn open world game, though Mike didn't say what the stated rationale was. We can guess it was to stay competitive with Skyrim and the like. Personally, I'm moving away from the whole open/closed world terminology. It's not a useful descriptor any more, in the same way RPG is useless. It's more useful to talk about how much choice players have in exploration and in the sequence of decisions/quests. The more choice the player has, the more open world it is. DAI has way more choice than Hellblade does, but less than Skyrim and HZD. So an eagle can be called a chipmunk and a steak a piece of pizza? I understand definition creep, I understand that words and their meanings can evolve over time, but when you do that you risk loosing a word's useful, disntinctive meaning. Because I have played both Skyrim and Dragon Age Inquisition and the games have very little in common (aside from an over abundance of fetch quests I suppose). How is a zone like the Fallow Mire or the Storm Coast'open world'? How can a game be called open world if you cannot literally walk to one zone of the map to the next? Again, what is your definition? (you did not provide one). And while I haven't played HZD yet I suspect calling it an open world game is a bit of a misnomer too, at least based on your comments on the game. You are right about it being a continiuum and you are also right that this whole conversation might be 'meaningless' in the grand scheme of things, (I mean heck if anything under the sun can be an Open World Game then maybe all we can do is discuss the degree something is open). As has been noted too BioWare itself might have called Inquisition an Open World Game. I have heard conflicting reports about it so I prefer to er on the side of words having sensical meanings. But, even if that is the case it does not change much (I guess as mmoblitz pointed out). It would just make it a bad open world game. An amazing game, but a bad open world game (though tbh most of the games I do consider open world aren't that great) Just like how the Witcher 3, everyone from the devs and most of the gaming community says its an RPG, it is to me a horrible one. Great game, Horribe RPG.
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Post by river82 on Jun 3, 2018 4:37:28 GMT
It seems like a solution that works is to download Battle Encoder Shirase and limit the Witcher 3 to 98% of CPU usage, and that should eliminate constant freezing. I might try that, I can live with the freezing but would prefer a smoother run. I don't really want to keep playing it on console. In case anyone's interested, limiting CPU usage to 95% has eliminated all freezing in the game. Couldn't be happier ... well I could but that would involve:
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 3, 2018 9:39:44 GMT
Regarding my signature, that comment was made about me in 2006. Still checks out even today. I've been "that guy" for quite some time.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 3, 2018 9:44:03 GMT
Bioware has already stated it was not:
"Dragon Age: Inquisition isn’t open world, is “multi-region” says BioWare"
Inquisition was the first BioWare game to do that properly since BG. BG2 did not - its regions were only accessible if you had a quest telling you to go there. BG and DAI let us wander all over hither and yon as we saw fit. We could go to a place and find content there instead of just following quest markers.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 3, 2018 9:49:45 GMT
If you make up literally everything in your head, why bother with the video game. Just write your own story in your head. Bonus of being free. I have seen this strawman before. The game provides me with scenarios in which to apply my character design. The game gives me events to which to react. It is important, however, that the reaction be chosen by me (even from a finite list) rather than simply be something I watch in a non-interactive cinematic. The biggest mistake modern games make is they assign motive to each action, and they don't tell the player what that motive is until after the action was chosen. Since the motive is literally the reason for doing the thing, the player needs to know it BEFORE making the choice, else the pre-written motive could invalidate the player's reasoning.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 3, 2018 20:32:28 GMT
That's a much too restrictive definition, designed to exclude DAI. Horizon Zero Dawn has a hub, in fact it sequentially puts you in one hub then another, just like DAI. But you aren't restricted to travel to/from the hub, that is a very specific DAI design choice that Mike explained in the article. They wanted to insure that people didn't get too disconnected from the flow of the main quest in their random wandering, so they forced a return to the hub to allow "events" to occur to remind the player that main quest shit has to get done. He even mentions that Skyrim did not have such a forcing function and you could play the game for hours without ever getting "the shouts" (the way it was quoted made me giggle, because it sounds like "the shits"). Personally, I thought that was a great thing about Skyrim and I played many characters that never got the shouts, but I digress .... It's also a continuum. Even games that are considered linear, like Hellblade, have areas where you can roam freely and choose the order in which you do branching linear paths. It's silly to say DAI is not open world, given that the dev team was put under pressure to make DAI be a damn open world game, though Mike didn't say what the stated rationale was. We can guess it was to stay competitive with Skyrim and the like. Personally, I'm moving away from the whole open/closed world terminology. It's not a useful descriptor any more, in the same way RPG is useless. It's more useful to talk about how much choice players have in exploration and in the sequence of decisions/quests. The more choice the player has, the more open world it is. DAI has way more choice than Hellblade does, but less than Skyrim and HZD. How can a game be called open world if you cannot literally walk to one zone of the map to the next? Again, what is your definition? (you did not provide one). I don't provide one because, as I said, I think the term is meaningless. Or at least, more likely to confuse than illuminate. Thus, /thread. It's much more useful to talk about specifics of player choice: Can I choose where to go on the map without limitation? Can I decide what order to do quests and tasks in? Does exploration reveal content, or does content unlock exploration, or both? Some of this depends on what you happened to play in what order in history. Starting from much more linear games like OG Doom, NWN, Drakan:Order of the Flame and Thief, I then came to Fallout 3 and Skyrim (skipped Oblivion) and played the hell out of those games, so those pretty much defined what open world meant to me for a long time. But then as I played more games that fell on different parts of the continuum, I realized that Bethesda style of open world is just that, a style, not a touchstone. Saying something is or is not Bethesda-style open world doesn't really say much, so why bother? It's kind of silly to say DAI is not open world, which would lump it in with games way over on the linear extreme, like Uncharted, Devil May Cry, or most of the Final Fantasy's. How does that help anyone understand the DAI experience better? It's just as silly to say DAI is extremely open world, if it lumps it in with Skyrim and TW3. It's just no good as a black/white, true/false descriptor. It's fine as a relative descriptor, though. So what I recommend is rather than saying DAI is/isn't open world, say DAI is more/less open world than game X. Looks like they bent over backwards to avoid being criticized for not being an open world game (see links above). But that was PR. Mike's private words in the article tell a different story. Which all goes to my point -- it's become a marketing term which means what the marketing dudes want it to mean, like genres of fiction. Genres are all about shelf space in bookstores and search categorization, it's not really about what the books are about!
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Post by apollexander on Jun 4, 2018 2:35:56 GMT
I can not walk from White Orchard to Novigrad without loading. Is TW3 an open world game?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jun 4, 2018 2:38:05 GMT
I can not walk from White Orchard to Novigrad without loading. Is TW3 an open world game?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 4, 2018 19:44:49 GMT
I can not walk from White Orchard to Novigrad without loading. Is TW3 an open world game? No its not. At least it shouldn't be.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 4, 2018 19:46:09 GMT
The trick to enjoying DAI is ignoring most of those areas. I'll pick one or two in a given playthrough and will not even bother expending the power to open the others. I'll focus on the main plot points and typically only 2-3 companions integral to said playthrough. More fun that way and gives it more longevity. I do however agree that much more effort could have been put into bringing those areas to life. My preference is much more in the "show, don't tell" philosophy, and DAI spent entirely too much time telling me about stuff instead of making me feel like I was in a living, breathing world. That was the true success of TW3.
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Post by river82 on Jun 4, 2018 20:29:48 GMT
The trick to enjoying DAI is ignoring most of those areas. I'll pick one or two in a given playthrough and will not even bother expending the power to open the others. I'll focus on the main plot points and typically only 2-3 companions integral to said playthrough. More fun that way and gives it more longevity. I do however agree that much more effort could have been put into bringing those areas to life. My preference is much more in the "show, don't tell" philosophy, and DAI spent entirely too much time telling me about stuff instead of making me feel like I was in a living, breathing world. That was the true success of TW3. They should have scrapped a few of those areas and built an actual city instead xD
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Post by helios969 on Jun 4, 2018 20:38:01 GMT
The trick to enjoying DAI is ignoring most of those areas. I'll pick one or two in a given playthrough and will not even bother expending the power to open the others. I'll focus on the main plot points and typically only 2-3 companions integral to said playthrough. More fun that way and gives it more longevity. I do however agree that much more effort could have been put into bringing those areas to life. My preference is much more in the "show, don't tell" philosophy, and DAI spent entirely too much time telling me about stuff instead of making me feel like I was in a living, breathing world. That was the true success of TW3. They should have scrapped a few of those areas and built an actual city instead xD I wouldn't have complained. Or in lieu of that do more like they did with the Fallow Mire and Crestwood. I liked the how those were done.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 4, 2018 23:21:13 GMT
Meh five playthroughs in and I've never skipped a zone. Despite the mediocrity of a lot of the quests and the horridness of some of the zones most of them have at least one enjoyable quest.
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Post by warden on Jun 5, 2018 19:19:44 GMT
The trick to enjoying DAI is ignoring most of those areas. I'll pick one or two in a given playthrough and will not even bother expending the power to open the others. I'll focus on the main plot points and typically only 2-3 companions integral to said playthrough. More fun that way and gives it more longevity. I do however agree that much more effort could have been put into bringing those areas to life. My preference is much more in the "show, don't tell" philosophy, and DAI spent entirely too much time telling me about stuff instead of making me feel like I was in a living, breathing world. That was the true success of TW3. They should have scrapped a few of those areas and built an actual city instead xD Now that you mention that, would have been great to see Vigil's Keep or Amaranthine.
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Post by jclosed on Jun 6, 2018 7:30:59 GMT
I can not walk from White Orchard to Novigrad without loading. Is TW3 an open world game? No its not. At least it shouldn't be. Using that definition all Elder Scrolls games (including Skyrim) and all Fallout games are simply no open world games. Every dungeon, house, building or whatever in those games has a bloody loading screen... Using that definition it is even very difficult to find any open world game whatsoever.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 6, 2018 7:37:33 GMT
No its not. At least it shouldn't be. Using that definition all Elder Scrolls games (including Skyrim) and all Fallout games are simply no open world games. Every dungeon, house, building or whatever in those games has a bloody loading screen... Using that definition it is even very difficult to find any open world game whatsoever.
I think you are getting hung up on 'loading screen'. Simply put, at least as far as I know, I cannot get from White Orchard to Vezima or Vezima to Velen by walking, I have to go through a loading screen and those zones are not connected. Same with the Skellige Isles being isolated from Velen. Yes, in Skyrim you run into loading screens when you fast travel or enter a cave but then you can access anywhere on the map by walking, or swimming until you reach the end of the game.
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Post by Fredward on Jun 6, 2018 7:49:13 GMT
I didn't realize this was even a provocative statement, I thought "huge, beautiful empty spaces" was one of the primary criticisms of the game. This has nothing to do with the how the setting is built or anything along those lines, I think Bioware does a great job in making Thedas feel like a real place, it was simply a consequence of a lot of open space, a single main mission for the area and a metric fuckton of fluff. Kill x of these, gather y of those explore z of locations is never, ever going to be compelling gaming regardless of what you dress it up in.
The answer to me is pretty simple: DA2 style side quests. Maybe even better than DA2 style side quests, but asking or expecting evolution of a concept that's been abandoned for several games now might be asking too much but a game like Witcher 3 (yeah, yeah I know) had excellent side quests. I'm entirely fine with other aspects of the game suffering if side quests are expensive, a huge part of the reason why I play Bioware games is interesting choices, interesting characters and a variety of ways I can express who my character is. Side quests can be a huge avenue for this.
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Post by jclosed on Jun 6, 2018 9:04:52 GMT
Using that definition all Elder Scrolls games (including Skyrim) and all Fallout games are simply no open world games. Every dungeon, house, building or whatever in those games has a bloody loading screen... Using that definition it is even very difficult to find any open world game whatsoever.
I think you are getting hung up on 'loading screen'. Simply put, at least as far as I know, I cannot get from White Orchard to Vezima or Vezima to Velen by walking, I have to go through a loading screen and those zones are not connected. Same with the Skellige Isles being isolated from Velen. Yes, in Skyrim you run into loading screens when you fast travel or enter a cave but then you can access anywhere on the map by walking, or swimming until you reach the end of the game. So - What you are saying that if The Witcher 3 only had Velen (with Novigrad attached to it) it would be an open world game, but by adding some extra area's like Skellige that had loading screens due to technical limitations (you cannot fit all that stuff in a limited amount of RAM), it looses that status? And yes - You made a point about loading screens right here. You simply cannot access any building or dungeon in Skyrim without a loading screen, so it's NOT an open world. It's a world with closed-of parts that are only reachable by loading screens. I cannot start walking from inside one building to inside another building at the other side of the map (like I can do in TW3). So - That's that.
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Post by jadedragon on Jun 9, 2018 3:00:34 GMT
I think lack of in-game storytelling with zone quest really contributed to it's hollowness. Even if we left the fetch quest and meaningless side quest. The fact that each zone had a story to tell but it was treated as a typical side quest and not the main quest of that region other then it chaining itself to other side quest.
Take Emerald Graves and Exalted Planes for example. These zones should be linked to the Winter Palace Quest line. Just like Crestwood and Western Approach was someway tied to Abyss quest line. It was really strange to me because Winter Palace was a rushed plot point because once you get to skyhold you can just go there unlike you having requirements to Adamant. Granted it was nothing major to getting there but that also could have been expanded upon.
The ways I would have constructed each zone using what I know from each is. Emerald Graves would be the 1st chain in the War of the Lions Quest. Meeting Fairbanks and having him and his people align with the inquisition as well as introducing us to the Freeman of the Dales who have one of the best npc faction stories in game but it's all via codex. I would had cutscenes and have our Inquisitor assist Fairbanks while taking out each Freeman Cell before we get the Key from August and read a note about a meeting between Freemen and Templars. We go to the villa fight Maliphant ending the Freemen in the Graves but introducing the Red Templars as the new mobs. I would still keep the War table mission to lure our Red Templars Carroll who we should have a cutscenes for being a returning npc and all. From there we go to the Exalted Plains and see both sides have stopped fighting and our fighting Freemen and undead. Leading to us stopping Goridan a venatori using the Freeman for Cory. I also would not kill Maliphant Goridan and Carroll. I would have made them be the judgements for that zone. Each zone should have had a judgement at least 1. After going through both then we get a invite to the Winter Palace from Flo who I would make the shadow figure behind the Freemen using false promises of the Dales to them just as she was falsely promised. From there I treat Winter Palace as the same. To fully conclude the War of Lions quest chain after both Tier 2 chest chains are done Abyss and Palace I would use Hissing Waste and Du Lion as the finale of each zone chain. Du Lion via codex showed how heavy involved it was the actions of the Freemen and Red Templars so perfect place to wrap it up with the Ishamel fight.
It honestly even looks like the zones was designed lore wise to go somewhat this way. The Dales is mostly occupied by the Red Templars and a actions connect in that region. And all the dessert regions follow the Venatori even up to linking them with Adament. If the zone quest was treated as secondary main quest with cutscenes and villains whose motives we see and hear not read after we kill them like they are a regular npc then it would have added alot of meat to the game. Cory forces were alot more organized then we saw using multiple factions outside the Vents and Reds to include the Freemen, Harlequins via Flo, and Carta in Fereldan all played a part in his plan it just wasn't given enough attention.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jun 9, 2018 6:01:52 GMT
He’s not wrong, there was a lot of barren land and pointless running in the game, furthermore it being open world esq hurts it more than it helps to me. Dragon Age origins and DA2 were fine without the open world approach, you’re still going to have fluff regardless of your design choices on the world, but in a more linear approach you can limit the fetch quests, half the map being nothing but empty land and put more focus on a narrative to what you do have.
I’d much rather see Bioware simply ditch their open world approach as I don’t think it fits dragon age, it’s never been about exploration, furthermore it makes no sense to have that when you’re part of a war, there’s also the fact Bioware sucks at it, I’d be more open to it if they showed improvement but I didn’t see that in Andromeda and I’m not expecting it in Anthem, hell I don’t even think most developers do a good job at it as most games (TW3 included) are victims of empty space and fetch quests and such, at that point it comes down to who does it better which isn’t good enough to me. Furthermore I think it’d benefit them as they can put more cinematic work in if they’re not screwing around with filler. Val Royeuxe or W/E it’s called was a big disappointment to me, Ditch the 2-3 repetive deserts and put more work into what is supposed to be a capital city would’ve been more appreciated from me.
As for the article saying to be more like TW3 (and I’m assuming they only mean by the open world approach, if not then I definitely don’t think DA should follow in the whitcher steps) I don’t see why it should 🤷🏻♀️. As I said earlier, VERY FEW games actually make an open world/open world esq game work and TW3 doesn’t fit with those few to me. It too has its hollow worlds to it, plenty of rinse and repeat/fetch quests and plenty of empty fields to waste 10 minutes running through (and god damn that horse that would spawn in the worst places when you called it 😤). Does TW3 do it better? Debatable between people (and I myself would need to replay it multiple times to really compare it to inquisition) but it still shares some of the very flaws inquisition has.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Jun 9, 2018 16:53:26 GMT
Make it like The Witcher? A world filled with cut and paste villagers, treasures, and no sense that this world has any real history? Glad they can’t ruin the world that way now. Hopefully they don’t screw up 4 with it. butthurt
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