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Post by leadintea on May 28, 2018 7:04:58 GMT
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on May 28, 2018 7:24:00 GMT
It may be a little hollow, but just little. Not enough to diminish the whole game for me. (see my signature)
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Kabraxal
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Post by Kabraxal on May 28, 2018 7:51:43 GMT
Make it like The Witcher? A world filled with cut and paste villagers, treasures, and no sense that this world has any real history?
Glad they can’t ruin the world that way now. Hopefully they don’t screw up 4 with it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 28, 2018 10:17:46 GMT
Why does the article say we'll be "facing off against Solas as Fen'Harel"? That's a massive assumption with no basis whatsoever.
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Post by Cantina on May 28, 2018 11:48:12 GMT
Make it like The Witcher? A world filled with cut and paste villagers, treasures, and no sense that this world has any real history? Glad they can’t ruin the world that way now. Hopefully they don’t screw up 4 with it. I would not go that far about The Witcher series.
But as for the cut and paste, Bioware excelled at that in DAI. Well, that and extra clipping. And to say places were a bit hollow, is a vast understatement ; you could go from one end of the zone to the other and not encounter a single enemy. Would have been better if Laidlaw did not sugar coat it and simply come out and say, "DAI was a complete mess." It won't happen. But I will hold onto that dream.
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Post by warden on May 28, 2018 12:00:03 GMT
Well, the guy always showed his love for Skyrim so he did his particular Skyrim, can't blame him I guess.
Anyway Brent Knowles > Mike Liadlaw.
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Post by river82 on May 28, 2018 12:43:13 GMT
Yep, anybody that isn't blind can see Inquisition's world is hollow and the devs would recognise that better than anyone. But to be fair Andromeda's universe is much more hollow than Inquisition's. Looking forward to seeing them correct this in number 4
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 28, 2018 16:11:45 GMT
I'm playing Witcher 3 atm, and while I very much appreciate that the sidequests are often entire, substantial narratives in their own right (it almost feels like I am playing a collection of short stories), I think it has its own open-world-related issues, with some content obviously being filler, and exploration often feeling unrewarding, especially early on, when most lootable containers only hold worthless trash. Not to mention, Witcher 3 has other aspects I dislike, that I would not want to see BioWare (or anyone else) emulate.
Additionally, NOT EVERY GAME HAS TO BE WITCHER 3! I already own Witcher 3, I don't need or want another copy. Assassin's Creed: Origins was a huge disappointment, precisely because it was trying to be Witcher 3, instead of focusing on the unique gameplay elements that gave the series its identity. Instead of worrying about what other developers are doing, BioWare should go back to basics and focus on the qualities that made their games special, which I'm told is story-telling, but tbh none of their games that I've played have super-impressed me on that front.
In fact, I'm sick and fucking tired of the open-world trend in general. Open-world games almost ALWAYS end up feeling empty, and I don't WANT games that take forever to complete anyway, just like I wouldn't want a book that never ends. My life has a finite amount of time in it, and the reason I pick up any story, regardless of platform, is to finish it.
Instead of this "my world is bigger than your world" dick-measuring contest that the industry seems to be obsessed with, we'd all be much better off if instead they focused first on crafting strong, compelling narratives and fun gameplay, and then built a world that was just the size they needed.
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Heart
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: cardiaheart
PSN: Natigator1213
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Post by Heart on May 28, 2018 16:41:18 GMT
I hope that if Bioware tries to correct this in da4, they don't take all the comparisons to witcher 3 as 'lets make a witcher clone' or something. I hope they drop the open-world idea entirely, to be perfectly honest. Open-world is great in games where a majority of the fun comes from the act of exploration itself, but Dragon Age has always (for me, anyway) been about the narrative. I don't need huge environments with 4 NPCs floating around in it that ask me to find something on the other side of the map and return it to them. I'd rather have more linear environments where I run into characters I'll remember, and have side quests where I have to make choices beyond 'do i really want to find the druffalo this play through' lol.
I still love Inquisition, and not all of its environments felt the same kind of hollow. I thought the Fallow Mire and Emprise du Lion were pretty good, but they also were also linear and had one main goal with a bunch of side quests tied in that you'd generally finish along the way.
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Post by Kabraxal on May 28, 2018 17:03:59 GMT
Make it like The Witcher? A world filled with cut and paste villagers, treasures, and no sense that this world has any real history? Glad they can’t ruin the world that way now. Hopefully they don’t screw up 4 with it. I would not go that far about The Witcher series.
But as for the cut and paste, Bioware excelled at that in DAI. Well, that and extra clipping. And to say places were a bit hollow, is a vast understatement ; you could go from one end of the zone to the other and not encounter a single enemy. Would have been better if Laidlaw did not sugar coat it and simply come out and say, "DAI was a complete mess." It won't happen. But I will hold onto that dream.
If the most integrated lore and fantastic world design us a mess... hope they make another “mess”. But then, I don’t need constamt enemy counters and cut and paste treasures to get immersed jnto the world. I appreciated the more subtle and complex world building. Sadly the masses don’t... they need the proverbial hammer to the face. Subtlety is under appreciated.
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Through Eluvians and beyond
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Post by Marduk on May 28, 2018 18:25:12 GMT
wccftech.com/ex-bioware-dev-would-work-cyberpunk-2077/ same person. he is a big fan it seems. not unusual. To look back at your product and think about how better it could have been is normal and its even more normal to use big names. once it was Skyrim. now The Witcher 3. As for Inquisition, for a 2014 game it had an okay world imo. enough variety in environments with mini stories for zones. meh activities and MMO-like quests were boring but trying to make it work with more cinematics and stuff is not necessarily the answer. pointing out possible shortcomings is good and all, but its tiring to see only certain titles getting this treatment over and over while some others keep getting a pass in their own way. Also apparently the article's author is not a fan of 2014 which is a shame. its not like it was an amazing year for gaming but it had enough quality games imo.
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Post by Sumerian Physics on May 28, 2018 19:07:04 GMT
I tend to agree with this sentiment. While Dragon Age is a thematically mature narrative set in one of the most intriguing fantasy worlds ever imagined, I don't feel like that awesome world is quite alive in Dragon Age: Inquisition. It's definitely an open-world game and that expansiveness comes across well but as far as interacting with the world, I don't feel the spontaneity of a real world. And that's mostly fine, not every game needs to be Skyrim or Fallout or Grand Theft Auto and have that sandbox randomness to it. Nor is "randomness" essential to that feeling of a living, breathing world. In fact, Mass Effect is a very linear game that felt very alive to me. It's a universe where you get the sense that more is going outside of your adventures and the world doesn't just stop when Shepard falls asleep. How does Mass Effect do this? Staging: Mass Effect excelled at giving every planet/prison/nightclub a look and feel unto itself. Thinking back on ME2 and the dark, pulsating seediness of Omega or playing ME1 and encountering the curt and businesslike atmosphere of Noverea only to have it be shattered by unfolding horror. Whereas Inquisition is all scale, and no depth and too many of the areas feel the same. A lot of foresty stuff. A lot of deserty stuff. There are maybe two locations in the game that are distinctive and memorable - Crestwood (until you do the big quest that turns it into more foresty stuff) and Emprise Du Lion which just feels different cuz it's the only snow you see after leaving Haven. Even putting aesthetics aside, there is very little that defines the areas or the people in it so a lot of it rings hollow. Look at how Val Royeux was utterly squandered in this game. You have the Chantry's Vatican City in a game where the Chantry is a HUUUUUGE part of the story.... and we don't see the grand cathedral? We don't really interact with anyone cool or important? It's really just like a 10x10 foot open-air market? Uhh, ok. Right then. Characters: Aria T'Loak. The Shadow Broker. Mouse. Gianna Parasini. The Biotic God. Detective Anaya. Hell even Liliheirax (who was a frickin' doorman)... Mass Effect is so full of side-characters - both bit players and heavy hitters - with quirky, funny or just plain interesting personalities, motivations and backstories and that is probably the most important element of making a simulated world feel full and alive. The Biotic God. The Asari lady looking for her lover's pendant. No matter what game you play, most NPCs will have the functional role of giving you a fetch quest, advancing the main plot or providing comic relief. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be flavorful. It's like the writers for DAI decided it would be pretentious to give their NPCs fun personalities... Here are things that NPCs do in Mass Effect that are largely missing from DAI. That is not to say that DAI NEVER did these things. But that the world feels hollow because it never did these things enough or good enough (1) NPCs in Mass Effect feel like they genuinely evolve over time. Aria can go from being your adversary to a confidant, not just because you finish her quests and now YAAAY she's happy now. But through conversational options that become available over the course of her quest tree, you get the sense that the relationship is alive and progressing/regressing over time. In Dragon Age Inquisition, no one really gets that treatment outside of your squadmates and advisors and thus, no one else in the entire world feels like they are really alive in the same way that the Inquisition's leadership is alive. (2) NPCs in Mass Effect are still alive once you're done with them. Remember e-mails in Mass Effect? Remember coming aboard the Normandy after a big mission and having 10 new emails from all those bit characters that you assumed were just there to give you a laugh? Just knowing that the Biotic God or the Dying Batarian are still out there somewhere in the galaxy, reflecting on your personal impact on their lives and writing to you personally... I mean that is as real as it gets. Well, I've written enough. But this is how I see it. Ironically, I think the hollowness of DAI could be argued positively from a thematic standpoint. The Inquisitor interacts with the world with a detachment becoming of a deity
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Post by natetrace on May 28, 2018 19:31:02 GMT
I don't think it was that hollow. I enjoyed the different regions and the fetch quests were fine, I never do them all but they were what I expected. I often defend Andromeda, but Inquisition was more robust, I'd say.
The Witcher is fine, but for me the lack of character creation means I will never play it as often as DAI or MEA. So I suppose if they want more substantial side quests they can look to Witcher, but that's about it.
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Cantina on May 28, 2018 20:16:28 GMT
I would not go that far about The Witcher series.
But as for the cut and paste, Bioware excelled at that in DAI. Well, that and extra clipping. And to say places were a bit hollow, is a vast understatement ; you could go from one end of the zone to the other and not encounter a single enemy. Would have been better if Laidlaw did not sugar coat it and simply come out and say, "DAI was a complete mess." It won't happen. But I will hold onto that dream.
If the most integrated lore and fantastic world design us a mess... hope they make another “mess”. But then, I don’t need constamt enemy counters and cut and paste treasures to get immersed jnto the world. I appreciated the more subtle and complex world building. Sadly the masses don’t... they need the proverbial hammer to the face. Subtlety is under appreciated. There is a middle ground to constant battles. DAI had very few and The Witcher 3 had too many. I am not going to disagree, DAI did have great graphics, music and voice. But the rest of the game was way under par for DA. Subtlety is fine, when it crosses over to hand-holding that is when it becomes a problem. And DAI had way too much hand-holding.
I for one am glad Laidlaw is gone. Seems like he is too damn concerned what everyone else is doing and trying to keep up with the Jones.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 28, 2018 20:27:04 GMT
Meta-comment: obvious clickbait. I wish I could make money mansplaining someone else's article to people. Or just copy/pasting bits of someone else's article. What an easy job.
Comment: There's a much more interesting comment in the original article that suggests that part of the reason we got the hollow feeling is that the balance of design effort was off, or perhaps more accurately, overinvested in making really cool and realistic open world maps, and underinvested in cutscene/narrative content. To think that, they could have dropped The Exalted Plains and the Hissing Wastes and used that money for more narrative content ...
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Vive la révolution mages!
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Post by Cantina on May 28, 2018 20:33:04 GMT
Meta-comment: obvious clickbait. I wish I could make money mansplaining someone else's article to people. Or just copy/pasting bits of someone else's article. What an easy job. Comment: There's a much more interesting comment in the original article that suggests that part of the reason we got the hollow feeling is that the balance of design effort was off, or perhaps more accurately, overinvested in making really cool and realistic open world maps, and underinvested in cutscene/narrative content. T o think that, they could have dropped The Exalted Plains and the Hissing Wastes and used that money for more narrative content ...I agree.
Or better yet...drop PVP bullshit and put all the time and resources into making the single player game better.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 28, 2018 20:48:52 GMT
It's a fair argument. There were a number of quests in DAI that would have been improved significantly by making them a little more cinematic. Maybe that would have resulted in content being cut elsewhere, but there's already too much "stuff" in Dragon Age Inquisition as is.
That said, I wouldn't necessarily look to The Witcher to set the standard for your RPG, because Geralt is awful and I hate him The Witcher is based on a "static protagonist" model. Notably, a solitary one. The kind of quests you can involve one person in are different from the ones you can challenge a whole party with.
Rather, I would look to Dragon Age: Origins. (And no, I don't mean "Bring back the Warden" or "Bring back Origin stories.") DAO had some really great side quests. Not all of them were memorable — "give me your health potion" side quests can go die in a ditch — but they were often very good.
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Post by Kabraxal on May 28, 2018 21:45:57 GMT
Meta-comment: obvious clickbait. I wish I could make money mansplaining someone else's article to people. Or just copy/pasting bits of someone else's article. What an easy job. Comment: There's a much more interesting comment in the original article that suggests that part of the reason we got the hollow feeling is that the balance of design effort was off, or perhaps more accurately, overinvested in making really cool and realistic open world maps, and underinvested in cutscene/narrative content. T o think that, they could have dropped The Exalted Plains and the Hissing Wastes and used that money for more narrative content ...I agree.
Or better yet...drop PVP bullshit and put all the time and resources into making the single player game better.
That I can agree with. DA does not need MP in any way.
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2018 21:50:29 GMT
It's never been clear how you throw away the projected MP/MT revenue and still keep the same budget, though. It's not like SP subsidizes MP; if anything, it's the other way around.
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Post by vertigomez on May 28, 2018 22:23:43 GMT
Instead of this "my world is bigger than your world" dick-measuring contest that the industry seems to be obsessed with, we'd all be much better off if instead they focused first on crafting strong, compelling narratives and fun gameplay, and then built a world that was just the size they needed.This. Not that I don't appreciate the scenic environments and feeling like I'm wandering "in" Thedas, but I think that should be the bonus tertiary thing they focus on after they're done with the meaty bits, not treating it as this huge selling point. I had more fun in Redcliffe Castle during IHW than I did fighting bears or gathering shards in the Hinterlands. Then again, I didn't mind being restricted to Kirkwall (+Sundermount, Chateau Haine in DLC, etc.) in DA2 either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 28, 2018 22:38:10 GMT
I've probably said this before - I have a tendency to repeat myself, I'm very old - but for me the biggest mistake they made was disconnecting the main story from the "open world" areas. We had to go to the Hinterlands for the Power necessary to kick start the story, but were any of the others (Forbidden Oasis, Western Approach, Hissing Wastes, Emerald Graves, Exalt Plains or Emprise du Lion necessary? Genuine questions, can't remember).
For that matter, why 3 separate desert regions..? Merge them into the Western Approach and have a day/night toggle (if you wanted to showcase "night time" stuff).
Why couldn't the main story stuff have taken place in these areas? I guess, is my question.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 29, 2018 0:56:14 GMT
Instead of this "my world is bigger than your world" dick-measuring contest that the industry seems to be obsessed with, we'd all be much better off if instead they focused first on crafting strong, compelling narratives and fun gameplay, and then built a world that was just the size they needed.This. Not that I don't appreciate the scenic environments and feeling like I'm wandering "in" Thedas, but I think that should be the bonus tertiary thing they focus on after they're done with the meaty bits, not treating it as this huge selling point. I had more fun in Redcliffe Castle during IHW than I did fighting bears or gathering shards in the Hinterlands. Then again, I didn't mind being restricted to Kirkwall (+Sundermount, Chateau Haine in DLC, etc.) in DA2 either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ DA2 is actually still my favourite game in the series, although Kirkwall, relative to it's size, feels just as empty as Inquisition. I would love for the next one to again be focussed around one city (say, Minrathous)? But it would need to be denser in terms of content. Rather than look to the Witcher 3, I think more games should take a look at the world design of the more recent Deus Ex games: the open-world hubs may be smaller, but they are dense, and exploration is much more rewarding. There's a lot of secret passages and rooms, and they make much better use of vertical space. Horizon Zero Dawn is another game I would look to for examples of open-world "done right". There's a good ratio of content to size, and it's one seamless map with a wide variety of different environments within it. Either of these games would be better role models than Witcher 3, I feel. Other people have mentioned the egregious re-use of NPC designs in that game, but another thing I've noticed is that there are a lot of unfinished spaces, hidden behind "locked" doors, which I think is bullshit. If there's a door, there should be a way through it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 29, 2018 1:08:00 GMT
I've probably said this before - I have a tendency to repeat myself, I'm very old - but for me the biggest mistake they made was disconnecting the main story from the "open world" areas. We had to go to the Hinterlands for the Power necessary to kick start the story, but were any of the others (Forbidden Oasis, Western Approach, Hissing Wastes, Emerald Graves, Exalt Plains or Emprise du Lion necessary? Genuine questions, can't remember). For that matter, why 3 separate desert regions..? Merge them into the Western Approach and have a day/night toggle (if you wanted to showcase "night time" stuff). Why couldn't the main story stuff have taken place in these areas? I guess, is my question. The "Power" mechanic is lousy, in and of itself. It's transparently obvious that it only exists to cover up how little story there ACTUALLY is, by forcing you to engage with the bloated, uninteresting side-content. The only other game I've seen employ this tactic was Tales of Xillia 2, where the main story would periodically screech to a halt, and you would be forced to do mindless, eternally-repeating fetch quests until you'd earned enough in-game currency to "pay off" a portion of your "medical debts". DAI's excuse is less pathetic, but only a little.
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Post by colfoley on May 29, 2018 20:25:35 GMT
I've probably said this before - I have a tendency to repeat myself, I'm very old - but for me the biggest mistake they made was disconnecting the main story from the "open world" areas. We had to go to the Hinterlands for the Power necessary to kick start the story, but were any of the others (Forbidden Oasis, Western Approach, Hissing Wastes, Emerald Graves, Exalt Plains or Emprise du Lion necessary? Genuine questions, can't remember). For that matter, why 3 separate desert regions..? Merge them into the Western Approach and have a day/night toggle (if you wanted to showcase "night time" stuff). Why couldn't the main story stuff have taken place in these areas? I guess, is my question. So much this. Ironically it would have been so easy to fix. They could have had things exactly as they were but say you do the Exalted Plains before the Winter Palace. That could have easily given you a approval boost. Or tie attacking Griffin Wing before Adamant makes that easier.
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✜ Forge Mechanic
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Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
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PapaCharlie9
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2018 2:26:38 GMT
I've probably said this before - I have a tendency to repeat myself, I'm very old - but for me the biggest mistake they made was disconnecting the main story from the "open world" areas. We had to go to the Hinterlands for the Power necessary to kick start the story, but were any of the others (Forbidden Oasis, Western Approach, Hissing Wastes, Emerald Graves, Exalt Plains or Emprise du Lion necessary? Genuine questions, can't remember). I think an additional insight from the article is that this may have been an unintentional side-effect of the "open world first" design prioritization. They probably thought they had plenty of content in the main story, but didn't realize how that becomes a ratio when you add in the open world bits. That the open world bits might have a diluting effect. Crestwood is also necessary to the main quest, but none of the ones you listed are. For acquiring all companions, you need The Storm Coast and Val Royeaux also. Specialization quests and Companion loyalty quests do take you to some of the other places, but some of those do seem a bit forced. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm an Explorer type so the more maps and vistas to behold, the better. I like some maps (Emprise du Lion) more than others (The Xanax Plains), but now that I have them, I wouldn't want to give any of them up. I only bring up the "what if" appeal of how the balance might have been different.
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