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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 19, 2018 19:18:03 GMT
As far as i’m Concerned representation of sex is pretty critical element to portraying romantic relationship. Can’t stand the instances where bioware has attempted the neutered variety. Why is sex a critical element in portraying romantic relationships? There are thousands of romantic relationships portrayed without sex. Because it's the typical outcome in/of said relationships. To the point where a significant part of those cases without it are simply examples where it hasn't happened yet. Either because the story is over before we get there, or the focus is too scoped in elsewhere to allow it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 19, 2018 19:29:59 GMT
Why is sex a critical element in portraying romantic relationships? There are thousands of romantic relationships portrayed without sex. Because it's the typical outcome in/of said relationships. To the point where a significant part of those cases without it are simply examples where it hasn't happened yet. Either because the story is over before we get there, or the focus is too scoped in elsewhere to allow it. That doesn't answer my question though. If it is a critical element, then every romance needs it in its portrayal and yet there are countless cases where that isn't the case. Things like "it hasn't happened yet" is not an answer since the romance when portrayed doesn't involve it yet is still able to be portrayed fully. Or are you saying otherwise, that every romance that doesn't depict sex while being portrayed is a failure of a portrayal of a romantic relationship? If not, then again why is it a critical element when there are stories that don't have it yet still portray romantic relationships?
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 19, 2018 19:50:34 GMT
Which thousands of examples of well told fully formed adult romantic relationships without any element of sex are you referring to?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 19, 2018 19:56:59 GMT
Which thousands of examples of well told fully formed adult romantic relationships without any element of sex are you referring to? Answer my question first.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 19, 2018 20:43:44 GMT
Why is sex a critical element in portraying romantic relationships? There are thousands of romantic relationships portrayed without sex. Because it's the typical outcome in/of said relationships. To the point where a significant part of those cases without it are simply examples where it hasn't happened yet. Either because the story is over before we get there, or the focus is too scoped in elsewhere to allow it. Okay, but that still doesn't answer why one NEEDS to be portrayed on the screen.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 19, 2018 21:42:24 GMT
When we say "sex scenes," exactly what are we talking about? Note that the Bio quote which kicked off the thread didn't mention sex in the first place.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 19, 2018 21:53:22 GMT
When we say "sex scenes," exactly what are we talking about? Note that the Bio quote which kicked off the thread didn't mention sex in the first place. I'm guessing anything from Dragon Age: Origins creepy clothed puppet scenes through DAI and TW3 all the way to the scene in Kingdom Come Deliverance? The quote mentioned "love scenes". Some people say "have sex", others "make love". Functionally it's the same act. If I had to guess what Hudson meant I would say the "culmination" scene, which includes Josephine "on the sofa" with the Inquisitor as well as pre/during/post coital scenes.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 19, 2018 22:11:49 GMT
But nobody's actually having sex in most of the DAI scenes.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 19, 2018 22:18:03 GMT
But nobody's actually having sex in most of the DAI scenes. I haven't seen Dorian, Cullen or Solas' scenes, but I don't think ANY of them are actually depicted having sex, are they? That's kind of what I meant by post-coital. The scene is the "culmination" scene, the end of the romance story. In DAO they were creepy scenes that actually depicted - fully clothed and in public - sex. In DA2 they had pre and post-coital scenes. In DAI - the ones I've seen - were almost exclusively post (I think). But regardless - they are the "sex" scenes being referred to. Tamer (or more tasteful, depending on your own point of view) than TW3 or KCD, to be sure, but they're there. As opposed to say; KOTOR with the fade to black "kiss" for both Bastila and Carth.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Sept 19, 2018 22:26:34 GMT
But nobody's actually having sex in most of the DAI scenes. I haven't seen Dorian, Cullen or Solas' scenes, but I don't think ANY of them are actually depicted having sex, are they? That's kind of what I meant by post-coital. The scene is the "culmination" scene, the end of the romance story. In DAO they were creepy scenes that actually depicted - fully clothed and in public - sex. In DA2 they had pre and post-coital scenes. In DAI - the ones I've seen - were almost exclusively post (I think). But regardless - they are the "sex" scenes being referred to. Tamer (or more tasteful, depending on your own point of view) than TW3 or KCD, to be sure, but they're there. As opposed to say; KOTOR with the fade to black "kiss" for both Bastila and Carth. Nope, nothing at all for Solas. Dorian has 2 paths, one of which shows him naked from the back, and you see Cullen and the IQ naked in bed. To my knowledge all you get in DAI is the post-coital naked chats. I loathe the creepy DAO scenes, well any video game sex tbh, but I like the way DAI handled it as you skip the actual badly animated sex and instead hear an intimate conversation. I guess there's 4 categories for this, full on sex, fade to black, post-coital chats and then no hint of sex whatsoever.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 19, 2018 22:42:49 GMT
But nobody's actually having sex in most of the DAI scenes. I haven't seen Dorian, Cullen or Solas' scenes, but I don't think ANY of them are actually depicted having sex, are they? That's kind of what I meant by post-coital. The scene is the "culmination" scene, the end of the romance story. In DAO they were creepy scenes that actually depicted - fully clothed and in public - sex. In DA2 they had pre and post-coital scenes. In DAI - the ones I've seen - were almost exclusively post (I think). But regardless - they are the "sex" scenes being referred to. Tamer (or more tasteful, depending on your own point of view) than TW3 or KCD, to be sure, but they're there. As opposed to say; KOTOR with the fade to black "kiss" for both Bastila and Carth. I personally prefer cd red approach not only because of depiction but also the sense of less of a culmination. I still have a soft spot for dao’s post modded sequences from an rpg perspective. pre & pre-coital can be effective in representing the sexual element without ambiguity even if it isn’t my preference. fade to black without post coital I dislike, the memory of being kicked into the corridor after a fade to black with Miranda still Irritates me.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 19, 2018 22:45:29 GMT
Yeah - I didn't like the fade to black in KOTOR (haven't played ME OT so can't comment on that), but from what I recall it was actually a mechanical issue that stopped them from showing the "kiss", wasn't it? The animation wasn't up to it at the time.
I'm in two minds about whether I prefer TW3 v DAI in terms of how they handled that content - I don't mind either way, though.
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Post by hawkster94 on Sept 20, 2018 11:35:21 GMT
Frankly speaking, Bioware aren't exactly well regarded in terms of animations, so I'd rather not suffer through trademark Bioware animation in the sex scenes since I see fluff moments in romance more important
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 20, 2018 13:21:57 GMT
That doesn't answer my question though. If it is a critical element, then every romance needs it in its portrayal and yet there are countless cases where that isn't the case. Things like "it hasn't happened yet" is not an answer since the romance when portrayed doesn't involve it yet is still able to be portrayed fully. Or are you saying otherwise, that every romance that doesn't depict sex while being portrayed is a failure of a portrayal of a romantic relationship? If not, then again why is it a critical element when there are stories that don't have it yet still portray romantic relationships? Yeah, this isn't an absolute standard. "Portrayed fully" can mean different things, depending on the context of the story, and its focus. The story of how x and y first met? Chances are they didn't bang the first date, so yeah, sex might be not be shown. Yet the start of their romance, being the focus of the story ends up "portrayed fully". Unless of course, the characters involved are supposed to be promiscuous for some reason, or sex addicts, or they simply did bang the first date, in which case, yeah show at least enough of that to be understood. I'm not saying "every" anything. I'm saying the context suggests it more than anything. I'm also saying that sometimes sex, the lead up and payoff to can substitute for shorthand "they're in a relationship"- again in a context where the story wants to say that but can't or won't devote the full rom-com treatment to it. Ultimately it's up to the creators as to what story they want to tell, and what elements they want it to contain. And if romance is one of those elements, sex is fair game. For the record the best romance I've ever seen in a game is still Jackie Estacado and Jenny in The Darkness. The grand total of their scene together is her making you a cake for your birthday and then cuddling on the couch and watching To Kill a Mockingbird (and you can choose to watch the whole movie in the game lol). Some real shit goes down later, but that's all that happens "romantically"- and it's one of the most heartfelt scenes I've ever seen. That game is also a very personal, torturous journey for the protagonist, with an emphasis on atmosphere and making you feel what's going on (and it's not even an RPG, though you do get a few dialog choices). Other games that have made other choices as to themes, atmosphere, scope and feel would not necessarily pull that off, sex scene or no. But the choices they made perhaps would benefit from a more explicit pointer to sex. Each of the games in the ME trilogy for example work better with a sex scene/clear indicator of sex. The way those romances are set up play with the tropes of letting of some steam, the last chance before the expectation of death etc, as well as some specific ones, depending on who you chose.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 22, 2018 19:50:41 GMT
Yeah - I didn't like the fade to black in KOTOR (haven't played ME OT so can't comment on that), but from what I recall it was actually a mechanical issue that stopped them from showing the "kiss", wasn't it? The animation wasn't up to it at the time. I'm in two minds about whether I prefer TW3 v DAI in terms of how they handled that content - I don't mind either way, though. I believe MET's scenes would be within the TOS here, if someone wants to put up an example or two. (I'd do it, but not from mobile.)
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 23, 2018 1:09:09 GMT
I haven't seen Dorian, Cullen or Solas' scenes, but I don't think ANY of them are actually depicted having sex, are they? That's kind of what I meant by post-coital. The scene is the "culmination" scene, the end of the romance story. In DAO they were creepy scenes that actually depicted - fully clothed and in public - sex. In DA2 they had pre and post-coital scenes. In DAI - the ones I've seen - were almost exclusively post (I think). But regardless - they are the "sex" scenes being referred to. Tamer (or more tasteful, depending on your own point of view) than TW3 or KCD, to be sure, but they're there. As opposed to say; KOTOR with the fade to black "kiss" for both Bastila and Carth. Fade to black without post coital I dislike, the memory of being kicked into the corridor after a fade to black with Miranda still Irritates me. You could thank Fox News for that bullshit.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 23, 2018 9:53:05 GMT
Fade to black without post coital I dislike, the memory of being kicked into the corridor after a fade to black with Miranda still Irritates me. You could thank Fox News for that bullshit. Think it was more a case of Bioware being half hearted in their approach in me3.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 23, 2018 21:00:28 GMT
I haven't seen Dorian, Cullen or Solas' scenes, but I don't think ANY of them are actually depicted having sex, are they? That's kind of what I meant by post-coital. The scene is the "culmination" scene, the end of the romance story. In DAO they were creepy scenes that actually depicted - fully clothed and in public - sex. In DA2 they had pre and post-coital scenes. In DAI - the ones I've seen - were almost exclusively post (I think). But regardless - they are the "sex" scenes being referred to. Tamer (or more tasteful, depending on your own point of view) than TW3 or KCD, to be sure, but they're there. As opposed to say; KOTOR with the fade to black "kiss" for both Bastila and Carth. I personally prefer cd red approach not only because of depiction but also the sense of less of a culmination. I still have a soft spot for dao’s post modded sequences from an rpg perspective. pre & pre-coital can be effective in representing the sexual element without ambiguity even if it isn’t my preference. fade to black without post coital I dislike, the memory of being kicked into the corridor after a fade to black with Miranda still Irritates me. Why?
I mean, what makes a sex scene so vital to watch? Isn't it better to just let the imagination run wild?
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 24, 2018 8:34:15 GMT
I personally prefer cd red approach not only because of depiction but also the sense of less of a culmination. I still have a soft spot for dao’s post modded sequences from an rpg perspective. pre & pre-coital can be effective in representing the sexual element without ambiguity even if it isn’t my preference. fade to black without post coital I dislike, the memory of being kicked into the corridor after a fade to black with Miranda still Irritates me. Why?
I mean, what makes a sex scene so vital to watch? Isn't it better to just let the imagination run wild?
Surely we play these games to see the visualisation of choices coming to life.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 24, 2018 13:17:25 GMT
Why?
I mean, what makes a sex scene so vital to watch? Isn't it better to just let the imagination run wild?
Surely we play these games to see the visualisation of choices coming to life.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 24, 2018 14:03:29 GMT
Why?
I mean, what makes a sex scene so vital to watch? Isn't it better to just let the imagination run wild?
Surely we play these games to see the visualisation of choices coming to life. Not to such specificity. Some details simply won’t be done “right”
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 24, 2018 14:19:31 GMT
Surely we play these games to see the visualisation of choices coming to life. Not to such specificity. Some details simply won’t be done “right” Such specificity as merely showing the damn thing?
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Post by Iddy on Sept 24, 2018 14:26:38 GMT
I'm all for making it optional, so players have more control over the romance. But removing it entirely? Nah.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 24, 2018 14:47:18 GMT
Not to such specificity. Some details simply won’t be done “right” Such specificity as merely showing the damn thing? Sure. How many people who romanced Miranda think it's silly they they go at it right there in engineering, after all? Sex is a very personal thing. Where and when and how are very much up to individual tastes. There is no "merely showing" it.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 24, 2018 15:05:15 GMT
Such specificity as merely showing the damn thing? Sure. How many people who romanced Miranda think it's silly they they go at it right there in engineering, after all? Sex is a very personal thing. Where and when and how are very much up to individual tastes. There is no "merely showing" it. You could say the same about most other aspect of the games.
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