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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2018 13:06:12 GMT
I can know a couple is in a relatinship without watching them go at it. But the thing is, the difference is really a difference of degree rather than a difference in principle. I'd imagine that even your couple will have shows of intimacy and affection here and there, maybe holding hands, a kiss, etc. It seems to me that the distinction is really what makes you personally uncomfortable, which is entirely fair, but attitudes about sex and depiction of sex are hardly universal and unanimous, as this thread proves rather clearly. I'm not arguing that you should enjoy depiction of sex, I'm arguing that subjective morals and preferences aren't a good argument against depiction of sex in general. At a certain point, you cross a line from what is mere intimacy to sex. And the title of the thread is "does game romance mean sex scenes?" Holding hands and kissing are not sex scenes.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2018 14:20:58 GMT
At a certain point, you cross a line from what is mere intimacy to sex. And the title of the thread is "does game romance mean sex scenes?" Holding hands and kissing are not sex scenes. I agree that the two aren't the same, I'm merely questioning why one is okay and one isn't. If this is purely a discussion about taste and personal preference, then there's very little to discuss. It is my preference to stick with holding hands, kissing, and "fade to black" Or at the very least, let the sex scenes be optional/skippable. Which Bioware seems rather reluctant to do anymore. But again, the question in the OP is specifically I put forth that no, it does not. That romance and sex, while often closely tied, are do not require each other to exist in a story.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 26, 2018 18:33:45 GMT
But the thing is, the difference is really a difference of degree rather than a difference in principle. I'd imagine that even your couple will have shows of intimacy and affection here and there, maybe holding hands, a kiss, etc. It seems to me that the distinction is really what makes you personally uncomfortable, which is entirely fair, but attitudes about sex and depiction of sex are hardly universal and unanimous, as this thread proves rather clearly. I'm not arguing that you should enjoy depiction of sex, I'm arguing that subjective morals and preferences aren't a good argument against depiction of sex in general. At a certain point, you cross a line from what is mere intimacy to sex. And the title of the thread is "does game romance mean sex scenes?" Holding hands and kissing are not sex scenes. Agreed that those are not, but can we have a better definition of what a sex scene is? We were trying for a taxonomy upthread, but I don't know if it was acceptable. Which of the scenes in the Iron Bull and Blackwall romance tracks count, for instance?
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 26, 2018 18:37:14 GMT
Or at the very least, let the sex scenes be optional/skippable. Which Bioware seems rather reluctant to do anymore. Could you show me your math on that? It looks to me like the optionality of this content is going up, not down. At least Cora and Sera's scenes were skippable, for instance. They've also been adding romance tracks which don't even have such content.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2018 20:45:46 GMT
Or at the very least, let the sex scenes be optional/skippable. Which Bioware seems rather reluctant to do anymore. Could you show me your math on that? It looks to me like the optionality of this content is going up, not down. At least Cora and Sera's scenes were skippable, for instance. They've also been adding romance tracks which don't even have such content. Culen, Cassandra, Iron Bull, and Sera (I don't think her scenes are skippable) In addition, in MEA we have Peebee and Jaal.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 26, 2018 20:50:17 GMT
Could you show me your math on that? It looks to me like the optionality of this content is going up, not down. At least Cora and Sera's scenes were skippable, for instance. They've also been adding romance tracks which don't even have such content. Culen, Cassandra, Iron Bull, and Sera (I don't think her scenes are skippable) In addition, in MEA we have Peebee and Jaal. For Sera you don’t have to actually see the scene with nudity, but her romance does have sex as a mandatory part of it.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 26, 2018 21:54:12 GMT
Right. My understanding is that we're talking about the optionality of the scenes themselves. Whether the relationship itself has a nonsexual track is a separate issue -- although, obviously, a relationship with a platonic, wait-until-marriage, or other non-sexual path would obviously not have a mandatory sex scene, so any sex scenes would be either optional or outright nonexistent.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 26, 2018 22:07:10 GMT
Could you show me your math on that? It looks to me like the optionality of this content is going up, not down. At least Cora and Sera's scenes were skippable, for instance. They've also been adding romance tracks which don't even have such content. Culen, Cassandra, Iron Bull, and Sera (I don't think her scenes are skippable) In addition, in MEA we have Peebee and Jaal. Some are optional, some aren't. But you said that Bio seemed reluctant to make such content skippable now. What's that based on? Are you declaring that previous Bio games didn't even have "sex scenes"? That's why I figured we needed a definition. If MET games count, then the trend is towards more optionality, since previous romance tracks had no options. Edit: actually, I'm thinking of DA there. ME1 was optional. I honestly don't recall how ME 2 handled things. Same thing for previous DAs. But if the earlier games don't count, then there's no trend in the first plac, since each series had had precisely one game with such content. If what you're actually talking about is nudity, then you should probably come out and say it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 26, 2018 22:32:37 GMT
Right. My understanding is that we're talking about the optionality of the scenes themselves. Whether the relationship itself has a nonsexual track is a separate issue -- although, obviously, a relationship with a platonic, wait-until-marriage, or other non-sexual path would obviously not have a mandatory sex scene, so any sex scenes would be either optional or outright nonexistent. Yeah, overall they've definitely gone into more options and that seems to be a trend they will continue. The Shepard Trilogy like you said had all the romances(except Kelly) require sex in the romances. Even the ME1 romances if optional in there became mandatory in ME3. MEA had it I believe as 4 mandatory(Gil, Jaal, PeeBee, Vetra), 3 implied(Keri, Liam, Reyes), 1 optional(Cora), 1 ambiguous(Suvi), and 1 nonsexual(Avela). Dragon Age actually is interesting since the first game had more options than the second. In DAO I believe Morrigan and Zevran are mandatory, can't remember about Alistair, but I know Leliana has a non-sexual route. Meanwhile DA2 had them all be mandatory in the vanilla game with the only exception being Sebastian who was DLC. Then in Inquisition there were four mandatory(Cassandra, Cullen, Sera, The Iron Bull), 2 optional(Blackwall, Dorian), and two ambiguous(Josephine, Solas).
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2018 23:09:36 GMT
Right. My understanding is that we're talking about the optionality of the scenes themselves. Whether the relationship itself has a nonsexual track is a separate issue -- although, obviously, a relationship with a platonic, wait-until-marriage, or other non-sexual path would obviously not have a mandatory sex scene, so any sex scenes would be either optional or outright nonexistent. Yeah, overall they've definitely gone into more options and that seems to be a trend they will continue. The Shepard Trilogy like you said had all the romances(except Kelly) require sex in the romances. Even the ME1 romances if optional in there became mandatory in ME3. MEA had it I believe as 4 mandatory(Gil, Jaal, PeeBee, Vetra), 3 implied(Keri, Liam, Reyes), 1 optional(Cora), 1 ambiguous(Suvi), and 1 nonsexual(Avela). Dragon Age actually is interesting since the first game had more options than the second. In DAO I believe Morrigan and Zevran are mandatory, can't remember about Alistair, but I know Leliana has a non-sexual route. Meanwhile DA2 had them all be mandatory in the vanilla game with the only exception being Sebastian who was DLC. Then in Inquisition there were four mandatory(Cassandra, Cullen, Sera, The Iron Bull), 2 optional(Blackwall, Dorian), and two ambiguous(Josephine, Solas). Alistair's romance did not require sex. But ME1 was the best of all possible worlds. You could choose whether to sleep with the LI or not, and even if you did have Shepard sleep with them, you could skip past the sex scene. DAO also lets you slip past the underwear sex, though Morrigan and Zevran do require sleeping with them to complete the romance.
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Post by legbamel on Sept 27, 2018 13:03:11 GMT
I can know a couple is in a relatinship without watching them go at it. But the thing is, the difference is really a difference of degree rather than a difference in principle. I'd imagine that even your couple will have shows of intimacy and affection here and there, maybe holding hands, a kiss, etc. It seems to me that the distinction is really what makes you personally uncomfortable, which is entirely fair, but attitudes about sex and depiction of sex are hardly universal and unanimous, as this thread proves rather clearly. I'm not arguing that you should enjoy depiction of sex, I'm arguing that subjective morals and preferences aren't a good argument against depiction of sex in general. For me, it not about comfort. It's a question of where resources are allocated. Would I prefer casual intimacy in more places throughout the game reather than a scripted, one-time scene? Damned straight I would. If ditching awkward animation of a couple's first time will give me more character development, I am all for it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 30, 2018 15:30:45 GMT
Yeah, overall they've definitely gone into more options and that seems to be a trend they will continue. The Shepard Trilogy like you said had all the romances(except Kelly) require sex in the romances. Even the ME1 romances if optional in there became mandatory in ME3. MEA had it I believe as 4 mandatory(Gil, Jaal, PeeBee, Vetra), 3 implied(Keri, Liam, Reyes), 1 optional(Cora), 1 ambiguous(Suvi), and 1 nonsexual(Avela). Dragon Age actually is interesting since the first game had more options than the second. In DAO I believe Morrigan and Zevran are mandatory, can't remember about Alistair, but I know Leliana has a non-sexual route. Meanwhile DA2 had them all be mandatory in the vanilla game with the only exception being Sebastian who was DLC. Then in Inquisition there were four mandatory(Cassandra, Cullen, Sera, The Iron Bull), 2 optional(Blackwall, Dorian), and two ambiguous(Josephine, Solas). Alistair's romance did not require sex. But ME1 was the best of all possible worlds. You could choose whether to sleep with the LI or not, and even if you did have Shepard sleep with them, you could skip past the sex scene. DAO also lets you slip past the underwear sex, though Morrigan and Zevran do require sleeping with them to complete the romance. Ah, okay. I thought his didn’t but couldn’t say for certain. Though in a way it does since he needs to have sex with Morrigan for you both to live. As for ME1, I can’t recall but is Shepard rude when they refuse?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 30, 2018 17:36:10 GMT
Alistair's romance did not require sex. But ME1 was the best of all possible worlds. You could choose whether to sleep with the LI or not, and even if you did have Shepard sleep with them, you could skip past the sex scene. DAO also lets you slip past the underwear sex, though Morrigan and Zevran do require sleeping with them to complete the romance. Ah, okay. I thought his didn’t but couldn’t say for certain. Though in a way it does since he needs to have sex with Morrigan for you both to live. As for ME1, I can’t recall but is Shepard rude when they refuse? No, Shepard politely turns them down. It does not break the romance. Th picture appears in ME2.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 30, 2018 18:18:54 GMT
Ah, okay. I thought his didn’t but couldn’t say for certain. Though in a way it does since he needs to have sex with Morrigan for you both to live. As for ME1, I can’t recall but is Shepard rude when they refuse? No, Shepard politely turns them down. It does not break the romance. Th picture appears in ME2. Too bad the later games had to ruin that. I would actually say when it comes to romances that have a sex and a non-sex option, I think Cora's romance did better than ME1's romances did since then you still got a romance scene just one that didn't involve sex in it rather than just getting less content.
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Post by malgus on Sept 30, 2018 21:31:22 GMT
I never cared that much for sex scenes in BW games, romance gives an attachment to our avatar and is a tool for character development, seeing our companion in a situation of love with their soul mate and not just of friendship. This is one of the thing that gives me a desire to replay the game
One of my favorite romance is vette and the sith warrior in SWTOR, just a kiss scene is more than enough. Now it's no secret for the crew of the ship that the two have sex with each other, and they say it casually. But there is no need to put huge ressources of animation in it.
Now sex scenes do not bother me either, this one is done well in ME 3 :
But What I need is from the begining to 2min 5sec and after 2min 38sec, then I am totally fine.
In the end It's about what the creators wants to put their ressources in, and if they want to show these particular scenes, then I don't mind.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 1, 2018 11:52:58 GMT
My main argument is that it is not needed for all the romances and that there should be romances without it as well. See, I have a problem with "should" here. I don't see why or according to what rules. As for the rest, personally I don't think it's very interesting honestly. Correction, I'm sure those narrative points above might be interesting to you personally, but I doubt this has any broad appeal. Romance doesn't work for most people without sex, it's like an exercise in frustration. Sex as part of romance is merely the natural progression, it doesn't cheapen the romance, it merely takes it to another dimension. I can see the argument for why in specific circumstances sex simply doesn't make sense - like say with Tali, but I think that at the end of the day this angle won't be particularly interesting for most people. Especially if this is dropped at a later stage in the romance I'd imagine that this would be rather annoying, like dating someone as a transsexual and not telling them. (in case it isn't obvious) It may provide you with validation or whatever it is you are looking for, but that's about it. So it seems to me that even this comes full circle into matters of taste. Because providing such characters with every game that offers romance, which I'd imagine is the ideal situation for you, seems to me more a matter of "representation" and catering to the taste of a handful of individuals (a minority even among minorities), than any honest attempt to explore a different story. And by the way, this is why I don't like the "representation" argument: Because there's always a smaller minority that needs "representation". It's a figurative black hole. Exactly.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 1, 2018 12:53:09 GMT
No, Shepard politely turns them down. It does not break the romance. Th picture appears in ME2. Too bad the later games had to ruin that. I would actually say when it comes to romances that have a sex and a non-sex option, I think Cora's romance did better than ME1's romances did since then you still got a romance scene just one that didn't involve sex in it rather than just getting less content. True. But it's also a shame that Bioware clearly spent more time and resources on the sex scenes than the facial animations of the entire rest of the game.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 2, 2018 12:04:29 GMT
For me, it not about comfort. It's a question of where resources are allocated. Would I prefer casual intimacy in more places throughout the game reather than a scripted, one-time scene? Damned straight I would. If ditching awkward animation of a couple's first time will give me more character development, I am all for it. I'm sure everyone here has their own vision of how the perfect game should allocate resources. Indeed. Resources should not be allocated to romance. The best romances with game characters have always been those that played out purely in my imagination.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 2, 2018 14:57:11 GMT
I'm sure everyone here has their own vision of how the perfect game should allocate resources. Indeed. Resources should not be allocated to romance. The best romances with game characters have always been those that played out purely in my imagination. I wouldn't say "no resources" But I do think that too much is being made of them nowadays. The romances were imo at their best when they were largely "lovetalks", extra conversations you had with the character, with maybe a personal quest tied in (or have the relationship potentially tie in to the main quest somehow, such as the Bodhi kidnapping in BG2). Leave how it further progresses to the imagination.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 2, 2018 14:58:42 GMT
Indeed. Resources should not be allocated to romance. The best romances with game characters have always been those that played out purely in my imagination. I don't disagree necessarily, I think that Bioware games in some ways started going the route of "broad as an ocean, deep as a puddle". After all, you "need" to "represent" everyone, and you can't even make characters "playersexual" because that "cheapens" the "representation" of "Who They Are". So yeah, everything considered, I wouldn't mind seeing a bigger focus on things that are interesting to everyone (as opposed to things that are only interesting to the few) and don't have to do with modern obsessions with sex and gender. In theory, if you had two romance arcs for the protagonist (perhaps four but that's stretching it) and made those options "playersexual", you could go much deeper into the (no, this wasn't innuendo...) story with them, connect them to the overall narrative, etc. It will also get rid of the "choose correct dialogue option, have sex, done" aspect of this since you could make it into something much more interesting and realistic. I'd suggest adding sex scenes is a not insignificant part of the "deep as a puddle" problem. Such scenes have gotta be resource-intensive.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 10, 2018 9:44:11 GMT
I personally prefer cd red approach not only because of depiction but also the sense of less of a culmination. I still have a soft spot for dao’s post modded sequences from an rpg perspective. pre & pre-coital can be effective in representing the sexual element without ambiguity even if it isn’t my preference. fade to black without post coital I dislike, the memory of being kicked into the corridor after a fade to black with Miranda still Irritates me. Why?
I mean, what makes a sex scene so vital to watch? Isn't it better to just let the imagination run wild?
Why not?
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Post by mousestalker on Nov 10, 2018 11:49:41 GMT
Why?
I mean, what makes a sex scene so vital to watch? Isn't it better to just let the imagination run wild?
Why not?
Slow is sexier
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 23:06:04 GMT
I found the sex scenes in the show Sense8 to be beautifully shot & performed and added a great deal to the storyline. Some sex scenes are great if it adds to the story and is treated like art, other sex scenes can be rather ridiculous and come across as gratuitous nudity and sex. Game of Thrones had a couple of nude/sex scenes that weren't necessary, but other scenes made scense. It's more how they're used and filmed. As you said, slower is sexier.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 22, 2018 9:49:25 GMT
If all you want is simply a sex scene to make romance satisfying for you, then frankly you have bigger problems That's what brothels are for.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Nov 28, 2018 19:59:44 GMT
Culen, Cassandra, Iron Bull, and Sera (I don't think her scenes are skippable) In addition, in MEA we have Peebee and Jaal. Some are optional, some aren't. But you said that Bio seemed reluctant to make such content skippable now. What's that based on? Are you declaring that previous Bio games didn't even have "sex scenes"? That's why I figured we needed a definition. If MET games count, then the trend is towards more optionality, since previous romance tracks had no options. Edit: actually, I'm thinking of DA there. ME1 was optional. I honestly don't recall how ME 2 handled things. Same thing for previous DAs. But if the earlier games don't count, then there's no trend in the first plac, since each series had had precisely one game with such content. If what you're actually talking about is nudity, then you should probably come out and say it.
ME1 some mild nudity namely a quick shot of Liara and Ash's butts and a side shot of their breasts but no nipple.
DA:O dry humping in underwear.
ME2 fade to black.
DA2 fade to black and no nudity just underwear in some of the post sex scenes (like with Merrill for example).
ME3 fade to black and/or dry humping in underwear.
DA:I and ME:A partial nudity with bare butts and nipples in some sex scenes.
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