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Post by themikefest on Oct 5, 2018 17:04:59 GMT
Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. Is that the reason? Look how long it took the Collectors to build what is seen at the base. How long would it have taken them to complete it? I would say longer then for the reapers to travel to the Milky Way to start the harvest. I found that whole thing lame. It was setup so the itsy-bitsy-teenie-weenie puny frigate would have the killshot. Even after the reaper's shields were disabled, it still wasn't taking any damage until the SR1, with two fighters on either side, destroyed the thing. Wouldn't they have been traveling already after Sovereign was destroyed? While I do agree that traveling would drain some energy, I would guess the reapers would be aware of that, and once inside the galaxy, sit back to recharge that lost energy before starting their harvest.
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Post by sil on Oct 5, 2018 17:09:52 GMT
Of course its got a point, and of course it affects the Reaper invasion. The fact that the Reapers will invade has always been known, in no way, shape or form can we stop them from coming. The point is to delay their arrival to buy more time. Sovereign failed in its task to open the Citadel Relay and disable the Mass Relay network. Mankind were the ones who led the charge against Sovereign and were the ones to kill it, which in turn led to the Collectors (established as a reserve force to monitor the genetics of the cycles species) investigating humanity and Shepard, establishing them as a prime candidate for ascension into Reaper form. Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. The races of the galaxy barely stopped Sovereign and would fail once the human Reaper was active. When the Collectors failed in their role, the only course left to the Reapers was to wake up and travel across the intergalactic void to begin their harvest. The plot hole isn't Mass Effect 2. The plot hole is why, if the Reapers can travel so fast, do they even need to use the Citadel Relay? Mass Effect 3 should've established their intergalactic journey as something that drains the Reapers and gives us an edge in some way, but it is never addressed. How? By punching the Citadel? How would another Reaper accomplish what Sovereign failed to do? Especially with the Conduit no longer an option. If anything, the introduction of the Collectors added a plot hole. Like why weren't they used in the initial invasion? Their seeker swarms would have left the defenders (including Shepard) helpless and Saren could have opened the relay unopposed. As said, the Collectors are a reserve force. That's established during Mass Effect 3 when their Black Arks turned up in the invasion of Palaven. And why wouldn't a second Reaper succeed? As you said, it'd have the backing of the Collectors, and as I said, the galaxy barely stopped the last invasion and that was through luck. Another Reaper could achieve the goal, or work from without to weaken the galaxy before striking. The big problem isn't why the Reaper is made, that is utterly obvious, the problem is why the Reapers don't just fly in instead, and that's an issue ME3 never resolved despite the fact it should.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 5, 2018 17:24:39 GMT
As said, the Collectors are a reserve force. That's established during Mass Effect 3 when their Black Arks turned up in the invasion of Palaven. Was that established through multiplayer? Not everyone played ME3 multiplayer. If not, can you post a link to where that is established in the single player campaign?
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 6, 2018 10:50:16 GMT
But the plot on ME2 is absolutely pointless, because stopping the Collectors does not affect the inevitable outcome of the Reaper Invasion on ME3. And the Human Reaper makes no sense whatsoever, and why the Reapers all of the sudden wanted humans to send the Collectors all the way from the center of the galaxy to kidnap humans to create a human-reaper? This is an enormous plot hole that doesn't fit the story of the entire trilogy. It needs to be rewritten if they decide to work on the trilogy. Of course its got a point, and of course it affects the Reaper invasion. The fact that the Reapers will invade has always been known, in no way, shape or form can we stop them from coming. The point is to delay their arrival to buy more time. Sovereign failed in its task to open the Citadel Relay and disable the Mass Relay network. Mankind were the ones who led the charge against Sovereign and were the ones to kill it, which in turn led to the Collectors (established as a reserve force to monitor the genetics of the cycles species) investigating humanity and Shepard, establishing them as a prime candidate for ascension into Reaper form. Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. The races of the galaxy barely stopped Sovereign and would fail once the human Reaper was active. When the Collectors failed in their role, the only course left to the Reapers was to wake up and travel across the intergalactic void to begin their harvest. The plot hole isn't Mass Effect 2. The plot hole is why, if the Reapers can travel so fast, do they even need to use the Citadel Relay? Mass Effect 3 should've established their intergalactic journey as something that drains the Reapers and gives us an edge in some way, but it is never addressed. That doesn't make any sense all. It was the Citadel and the Alliance who brought down Sovereign, and the whole ME2 plot is nothing but a dumb trope of "humanity is special". And it was evidence that the Reapers we're brought down by sentient species millions of years before, so the humans were not even the first, and it doesn't count because they had help. So you mean to tell me that the Reapers took an interest to humans, because of humanity took part to take Sovereign down? It sounds really dumb if you ask me.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 6, 2018 10:56:06 GMT
The problem with any "redoing" is there is a risk of not having a lot of people interested in it outside groups of people that are dedicated to the game. I know I won't be interested in the same overarching plot again so if it is still Shepard versus the Reapers I won't buy it. I want new content for my $60, not rehashes to try and fix the problems others see with the games.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 6, 2018 14:26:03 GMT
But the plot on ME2 is absolutely pointless, because stopping the Collectors does not affect the inevitable outcome of the Reaper Invasion on ME3. And the Human Reaper makes no sense whatsoever, and why the Reapers all of the sudden wanted humans to send the Collectors all the way from the center of the galaxy to kidnap humans to create a human-reaper? This is an enormous plot hole that doesn't fit the story of the entire trilogy. It needs to be rewritten if they decide to work on the trilogy. Of course its got a point, and of course it affects the Reaper invasion. The fact that the Reapers will invade has always been known, in no way, shape or form can we stop them from coming. The point is to delay their arrival to buy more time. Sovereign failed in its task to open the Citadel Relay and disable the Mass Relay network. Mankind were the ones who led the charge against Sovereign and were the ones to kill it, which in turn led to the Collectors (established as a reserve force to monitor the genetics of the cycles species) investigating humanity and Shepard, establishing them as a prime candidate for ascension into Reaper form. Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. The races of the galaxy barely stopped Sovereign and would fail once the human Reaper was active. When the Collectors failed in their role, the only course left to the Reapers was to wake up and travel across the intergalactic void to begin their harvest. The plot hole isn't Mass Effect 2. The plot hole is why, if the Reapers can travel so fast, do they even need to use the Citadel Relay? Mass Effect 3 should've established their intergalactic journey as something that drains the Reapers and gives us an edge in some way, but it is never addressed. Shortcut basically. That's the reason they use it
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 6, 2018 14:28:49 GMT
Of course its got a point, and of course it affects the Reaper invasion. The fact that the Reapers will invade has always been known, in no way, shape or form can we stop them from coming. The point is to delay their arrival to buy more time. Sovereign failed in its task to open the Citadel Relay and disable the Mass Relay network. Mankind were the ones who led the charge against Sovereign and were the ones to kill it, which in turn led to the Collectors (established as a reserve force to monitor the genetics of the cycles species) investigating humanity and Shepard, establishing them as a prime candidate for ascension into Reaper form. Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. The races of the galaxy barely stopped Sovereign and would fail once the human Reaper was active. When the Collectors failed in their role, the only course left to the Reapers was to wake up and travel across the intergalactic void to begin their harvest. The plot hole isn't Mass Effect 2. The plot hole is why, if the Reapers can travel so fast, do they even need to use the Citadel Relay? Mass Effect 3 should've established their intergalactic journey as something that drains the Reapers and gives us an edge in some way, but it is never addressed. That doesn't make any sense all. It was the Citadel and the Alliance who brought down Sovereign, and the whole ME2 plot is nothing but a dumb trope of "humanity is special". And it was evidence that the Reapers we're brought down by species millions of years before, so the humans were not even the first, and it doesn't count because they had help. So you mean to tell me that the Reapers took an interest to humans, because of humanity took part to take Sovereign down? It sounds really dumb if you ask me. It made Humanity a threat that's pretty simple to see. Only one other race ever even damaged one.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 6, 2018 16:08:59 GMT
Of course its got a point, and of course it affects the Reaper invasion. The fact that the Reapers will invade has always been known, in no way, shape or form can we stop them from coming. The point is to delay their arrival to buy more time. Sovereign failed in its task to open the Citadel Relay and disable the Mass Relay network. Mankind were the ones who led the charge against Sovereign and were the ones to kill it, which in turn led to the Collectors (established as a reserve force to monitor the genetics of the cycles species) investigating humanity and Shepard, establishing them as a prime candidate for ascension into Reaper form. Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. The races of the galaxy barely stopped Sovereign and would fail once the human Reaper was active. When the Collectors failed in their role, the only course left to the Reapers was to wake up and travel across the intergalactic void to begin their harvest. The plot hole isn't Mass Effect 2. The plot hole is why, if the Reapers can travel so fast, do they even need to use the Citadel Relay? Mass Effect 3 should've established their intergalactic journey as something that drains the Reapers and gives us an edge in some way, but it is never addressed. Shortcut basically. That's the reason they use it I always took the Citadel Relay to be a way for them to launch a surprise attack and cause complete disruption for they designed it so the Citadel was the center of the species that were in power, but this cycle knew of the Reapers already after Mass Effect 1 so the surprise element was already gone. If I remember ME1 correctly it was told that the Reaper invasion was already delayed due to the Protheans altering The Keeps so Sovereign was looking for a way to manually open The Citadel. So for all we know The Reapers were travelling for an untold amount of time already because they didn't get the Citadel Relay to activate.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 6, 2018 16:39:03 GMT
Shortcut basically. That's the reason they use it I always took the Citadel Relay to be a way for them to launch a surprise attack and cause complete disruption for they designed it so the Citadel was the center of the species that were in power, but this cycle knew of the Reapers already after Mass Effect 1 so the surprise element was already gone. If I remember ME1 correctly it was told that the Reaper invasion was already delayed due to the Protheans altering The Keeps so Sovereign was looking for a way to manually open The Citadel. So for all we know The Reapers were travelling for an untold amount of time already because they didn't get the Citadel Relay to activate. You are correct. I believe it was either Shep or a companion that said the Reapers would wipe out the council in a single surprise attack, and Vigil confirmed this happened to them.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 6, 2018 18:58:07 GMT
And even if the Reapers showed up in the MW drained, so what? Then they hole up somewhere off the known relay network and recharge.
For all we know, that's what they did do. We don't know anything about the Reapers' arrival in the MW except that they're potted first in batarian space.
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Post by sil on Oct 6, 2018 20:18:14 GMT
And even if the Reapers showed up in the MW drained, so what? Then they hole up somewhere off the known relay network and recharge. For all we know, that's what they did do. We don't know anything about the Reapers' arrival in the MW except that they're potted first in batarian space. We know there is roughly a 6 month period between the Collector Base mission and Prologue: Earth.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 6, 2018 20:36:03 GMT
And even if the Reapers showed up in the MW drained, so what? Then they hole up somewhere off the known relay network and recharge. For all we know, that's what they did do. We don't know anything about the Reapers' arrival in the MW except that they're potted first in batarian space. We know there is roughly a 6 month period between the Collector Base mission and Prologue: Earth. Wasn't it a year? There is a six month gap between the Suicide Mission and Arrival(at least if you play it after the main game which seems to be the canon) and then another six month gaop between Arrival and the beginning Mass Effect 3.
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Post by Phantom on Oct 6, 2018 20:47:25 GMT
We know there is roughly a 6 month period between the Collector Base mission and Prologue: Earth. Wasn't it a year? There is a six month gap between the Suicide Mission and Arrival(at least if you play it after the main game which seems to be the canon) and then another six month gaop between Arrival and the beginning Mass Effect 3. my understanding is that it is 6 months between the Main Mission and Prologue:Earth. and not a year gap
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Post by Iakus on Oct 6, 2018 21:04:17 GMT
Of course its got a point, and of course it affects the Reaper invasion. The fact that the Reapers will invade has always been known, in no way, shape or form can we stop them from coming. The point is to delay their arrival to buy more time. Sovereign failed in its task to open the Citadel Relay and disable the Mass Relay network. Mankind were the ones who led the charge against Sovereign and were the ones to kill it, which in turn led to the Collectors (established as a reserve force to monitor the genetics of the cycles species) investigating humanity and Shepard, establishing them as a prime candidate for ascension into Reaper form. Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. The races of the galaxy barely stopped Sovereign and would fail once the human Reaper was active. When the Collectors failed in their role, the only course left to the Reapers was to wake up and travel across the intergalactic void to begin their harvest. The plot hole isn't Mass Effect 2. The plot hole is why, if the Reapers can travel so fast, do they even need to use the Citadel Relay? Mass Effect 3 should've established their intergalactic journey as something that drains the Reapers and gives us an edge in some way, but it is never addressed. Shortcut basically. That's the reason they use it Why would immortal space Cthulhu need to bother with a shortcut?
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Post by Iakus on Oct 6, 2018 21:05:35 GMT
Wasn't it a year? There is a six month gap between the Suicide Mission and Arrival(at least if you play it after the main game which seems to be the canon) and then another six month gaop between Arrival and the beginning Mass Effect 3. my understanding is that it is 6 months between the Main Mission and Prologue:Earth. and not a year gap This. Since the dlc can be played whenever it really doesn't factor into the timeline.
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Post by Phantom on Oct 6, 2018 21:16:16 GMT
my understanding is that it is 6 months between the Main Mission and Prologue:Earth. and not a year gap This. Since the dlc can be played whenever it really doesn't factor into the timeline. and my understanding within Canon that Arrival is done shortly after The Suicide mission. I do that for the pacing of it as well.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 7, 2018 13:38:35 GMT
Shortcut basically. That's the reason they use it Why would immortal space Cthulhu need to bother with a shortcut? Because it catches everyone off guard.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 7, 2018 13:39:34 GMT
This. Since the dlc can be played whenever it really doesn't factor into the timeline. and my understanding within Canon that Arrival is done shortly after The Suicide mission. I do that for the pacing of it as well. Which is why I love the mod that forces it to trigger then.
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N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Oct 17, 2018 15:39:19 GMT
But the plot on ME2 is absolutely pointless, because stopping the Collectors does not affect the inevitable outcome of the Reaper Invasion on ME3. And the Human Reaper makes no sense whatsoever, and why the Reapers all of the sudden wanted humans to send the Collectors all the way from the center of the galaxy to kidnap humans to create a human-reaper? This is an enormous plot hole that doesn't fit the story of the entire trilogy. It needs to be rewritten if they decide to work on the trilogy. Of course its got a point, and of course it affects the Reaper invasion. The fact that the Reapers will invade has always been known, in no way, shape or form can we stop them from coming. The point is to delay their arrival to buy more time. Sovereign failed in its task to open the Citadel Relay and disable the Mass Relay network. Mankind were the ones who led the charge against Sovereign and were the ones to kill it, which in turn led to the Collectors (established as a reserve force to monitor the genetics of the cycles species) investigating humanity and Shepard, establishing them as a prime candidate for ascension into Reaper form. Their goal was to create another Reaper (which we see in ME2, a protoform before the shell is complete) so that it could open the Citadel Relay as Sovereign was meant to. The races of the galaxy barely stopped Sovereign and would fail once the human Reaper was active. When the Collectors failed in their role, the only course left to the Reapers was to wake up and travel across the intergalactic void to begin their harvest. The plot hole isn't Mass Effect 2. The plot hole is why, if the Reapers can travel so fast, do they even need to use the Citadel Relay? Mass Effect 3 should've established their intergalactic journey as something that drains the Reapers and gives us an edge in some way, but it is never addressed. Well ME2s pothole is that what you are talking about it never brought up. IMO 10 lines of dialogue explaining WTF the admittedly lamest boss in the history of games was about and how that tied into the Reaper invasion. Its a tiny change but it doesn't take much to change ME2 from having a plot separate from the reaper invasion to tied into stopping it. And yes ME3 needed something to explain why they didn't just fly here int he first place if its so easy for them. I prefer it weakening them in some sense that it gives this cycle a edge as you suggest, other think that doesn't work as they could fly to some remote section of the galaxy and recover. A story point about how you find them hiding despite their efforts is more plausible to me than a giant magic wand with 3 buttons.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 17, 2018 18:49:45 GMT
The problem with any "redoing" is there is a risk of not having a lot of people interested in it outside groups of people that are dedicated to the game. I know I won't be interested in the same overarching plot again so if it is still Shepard versus the Reapers I won't buy it. I want new content for my $60, not rehashes to try and fix the problems others see with the games. That's a stupid response, unless it isn't meant to be a response at all. If enough people share his opinion -- I'd be likely to react that way myself if Bio tried it -- it'd be a serious problem for the proposed product.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2018 20:19:32 GMT
That's a stupid response, unless it isn't meant to be a response at all. If enough people share his opinion -- I'd be likely to react that way myself if Bio tried it -- it'd be a serious problem for the proposed product. Well, Andromeda kinda demonstrated the response to pretending everyone was fine with the trilogy...
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 18, 2018 0:19:32 GMT
That's a stupid response, unless it isn't meant to be a response at all. If enough people share his opinion -- I'd be likely to react that way myself if Bio tried it -- it'd be a serious problem for the proposed product. Well, Andromeda kinda demonstrated the response to pretending everyone was fine with the trilogy... Most were.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 23, 2018 19:14:51 GMT
and my understanding within Canon that Arrival is done shortly after The Suicide mission. I do that for the pacing of it as well. Which is why I love the mod that forces it to trigger then. Is that on NexusMods? I clean up everything before going on the SM anyway but this would insure that anything missed gets shoved to the wayside. I do wish Hackett called much later. It feels weird to be given such an important quest and then ignore it for for half the game. Now, if there's a mod that makes it so that Hackett doesn't offer the mission until after the SM, I'd like that better.
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Post by sil on Oct 23, 2018 20:51:39 GMT
Which is why I love the mod that forces it to trigger then. Is that on NexusMods? I clean up everything before going on the SM anyway but this would insure that anything missed gets shoved to the wayside. I do wish Hackett called much later. It feels weird to be given such an important quest and then ignore it for for half the game. Now, if there's a mod that makes it so that Hackett doesn't offer the mission until after the SM, I'd like that better. If you use ME2Recalibrated then it positions the Arrival email after the SM. Which makes a lot more sense.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 6, 2018 17:19:48 GMT
That's a stupid response, unless it isn't meant to be a response at all. If enough people share his opinion -- I'd be likely to react that way myself if Bio tried it -- it'd be a serious problem for the proposed product.
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