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Post by alanc9 on Jul 27, 2019 5:32:21 GMT
Well, if you're going to accuse people of wanting Bio to commit corporate suicide by accident, it's your job to explain why the thing they want would actually be corporate suicide.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 10, 2019 2:10:05 GMT
Nobody here dislikes ME3 and wishes it had never existed I do. At least in its published form, I do. Honestly I would give the game a nine out of ten or maybe a full ten. Until the last ten minutes of the game. Then it goes to a 3. I wasn't expecting a mind blowing ending but something like DAO gave us where we saw (in some form) how our choices impacted the game and some kind of personal ending where shep lived or died and we see what happens with his crew and LI. Instead...I am not gonna go into it again. Still if they changed the ending It could be a min dblowing game. I mean yeah the rachni storyline was kind of messed up but that could have been fixed by just not having rachni enemies outside that mission.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 12, 2019 18:56:55 GMT
Honestly I would give the game a nine out of ten or maybe a full ten I'd give it a seven for that. With the exception of 2-3 moments, it's underwhelming and abides by way too many video game tropes of its time, only to reject the most satisfying one in the ending. Until the last ten minutes of the game. Then it goes to a 3 I'd give it a 6 or a 5. A 3 would mean the game boots and plays and it ends, as in it is functional and that's the best thing that can be said about it. Anthem, right now, in its barely functional form as many seem to describe it is a 3/10 game for me. But in comparison to ME1 and ME2, a 6-5/10 game as the ending of a trilogy that consisted entirely out of 9/10 games ... that is criminal. |
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 17, 2019 2:37:50 GMT
Honestly I would give the game a nine out of ten or maybe a full ten I'd give it a seven for that. With the exception of 2-3 moments, it's underwhelming and abides by way too many video game tropes of its time, only to reject the most satisfying one in the ending. Until the last ten minutes of the game. Then it goes to a 3 I'd give it a 6 or a 5. A 3 would mean the game boots and plays and it ends, as in it is functional and that's the best thing that can be said about it. Anthem, right now, in its barely functional form as many seem to describe it is a 3/10 game for me. But in comparison to ME1 and ME2, a 6-5/10 game as the ending of a trilogy that consisted entirely out of 9/10 games ... that is criminal. Well I have never had a game make me tear up. The mordin scene and the grunt scene. Even though I know grunt will live I still get teary from it. And that mordin scene is just brutal. The legion death is pretty hard as well. Although thane dying when he was your LI was heartbreaking. There were just so many parts of that game that were amazing it earned an incredibly high rating like a nine or ten until the ending. I knew they were gonna have to have a device that would defeat the reapers that seemed to come out of no where. I mean they made the reapers seem unbeatable by any conventional means so they wrote themselves into a corner. However the star kid crap was just..not gonna get into it. I think if they didn't have the rachni show up like they did and made kai leng (thane charging him with a gun) fights believable it would have made it alot easier on people. They should have had the rachni show up somehow if you let them live but not have them as reaper troops. Though I always saved the rachni so I didn't have a problem with it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 17, 2019 19:31:48 GMT
What burningcherry said. To elaborate a little: In the end what else can be done but build ships and train more men and shepard couldn't do that by himself
At the end of ME1, Shepard specifically mentions what s/he plans to do in ME2. "Find a way to stop them!" Then, at the beginning of ME2, they are hunting Geth for some reason and the authors chose to reset everything from there. Because ME2 went off on the Collector/Cerberus tangent then, a LOT of things had to be crammed into ME3 without any foreshadowing even happening. If there had been time to develop actual plot points like the crucible properly, maybe it wouldn't have felt quite as ridiculous as it did. A very nice article summarising how badly ME1's potential was squandered in ME2 can be found here by the way. Even after all these years, I still cry one single tear every time I read this.  Well said. One of my biggest beefs with ME2 is the abject character assassination - literally and figuratively. After being Lazarus'd, Shepard was reduced to working with a terrorist organization and a crew that included criminals, mercenaries, an assassin, a thief in order to stop a threat. Her father figure, mentor, and champion had been essentially neutered in his new role as the first human councilor. The council itself all but turned against her and denied the reaper threat. The Alliance didn't support her or offer to supply a new ship and crew (though Hackett still seemed to want the right to assign her tasks). Garrus had become a vengeful vigilante. And Shepard was frequently manipulated/fucked over by TIM. Most of these things had to happen in order to stick Shepard with Cerberus but they also derailed the reaper plot. I've certainly played my share of RPGs where I had options to join other factions, but never one where I was required to sleep with the enemy in order to play it. Had I been able to break away from Cerberus at some point during the game, I might not have minded it so much. Alas, no such opportunity exists. As for what else could have filled the gap between ME1-->ME3, any of these things could have been different, possibly replacing some of the daddy issues quests: -- The council dutifully retrieves Sovereign's wreckage and is actively studying it. -- Shep retrieves enough technology from the collector base and reaper under construction to enable conventional warfare vs the reapers. -- Shep destroys Cerberus from within and takes all of their technology for the Alliance. -- With Cerberus gone, straggler collectors could have been another enemy in ME3. -- The Arrival reveals more of the reapers' strategies. Given the above, ME3 wouldn't have needed to change all that much. Replace Cerberus enemies with Collectors. Instead of building the crucible, they're building and retrofitting fleets. Shepard is still trying to get them all to work together instead of individually trying to defend their own planets. ¯\_(ヅ)_/¯
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 29, 2019 5:24:49 GMT
Given that the council went in full denial there wasn't much shepard could do to fight the reapers except fight the collectors. In doing so He took away the collectors from the reapers arsenal and stopped a big reaper from being finished. In the end what else can be done but build ships and train more men and shepard couldn't do that by himself since he didn't have the money or influence since everyone had said soverign was a geth ship. It's alot like why Garrus went to omega to be a vigilante. There was nothing he could do fight the reapers. Maybe I am missing something but shepard accomplished alot in ME2 and if you saved the collector base then if it had been used right it would have made a BIG difference but cerberus became stupid.
Maybe someone can explain this to me.
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Origin: BlackSassyWolf
XBL Gamertag: BlackSassyWolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 12, 2019 14:01:41 GMT
What burningcherry said. To elaborate a little: At the end of ME1, Shepard specifically mentions what s/he plans to do in ME2. "Find a way to stop them!" Then, at the beginning of ME2, they are hunting Geth for some reason and the authors chose to reset everything from there. Because ME2 went off on the Collector/Cerberus tangent then, a LOT of things had to be crammed into ME3 without any foreshadowing even happening. If there had been time to develop actual plot points like the crucible properly, maybe it wouldn't have felt quite as ridiculous as it did. A very nice article summarising how badly ME1's potential was squandered in ME2 can be found here by the way. Even after all these years, I still cry one single tear every time I read this. Well said. One of my biggest beefs with ME2 is the abject character assassination - literally and figuratively. After being Lazarus'd, Shepard was reduced to working with a terrorist organization and a crew that included criminals, mercenaries, an assassin, a thief in order to stop a threat. Her father figure, mentor, and champion had been essentially neutered in his new role as the first human councilor. The council itself all but turned against her and denied the reaper threat. The Alliance didn't support her or offer to supply a new ship and crew (though Hackett still seemed to want the right to assign her tasks). Garrus had become a vengeful vigilante. And Shepard was frequently manipulated/fucked over by TIM. Most of these things had to happen in order to stick Shepard with Cerberus but they also derailed the reaper plot. I've certainly played my share of RPGs where I had options to join other factions, but never one where I was required to sleep with the enemy in order to play it. Had I been able to break away from Cerberus at some point during the game, I might not have minded it so much. Alas, no such opportunity exists. As for what else could have filled the gap between ME1-->ME3, any of these things could have been different, possibly replacing some of the daddy issues quests: -- The council dutifully retrieves Sovereign's wreckage and is actively studying it. -- Shep retrieves enough technology from the collector base and reaper under construction to enable conventional warfare vs the reapers. -- S hep destroys Cerberus from within and takes all of their technology for the Alliance.-- With Cerberus gone, straggler collectors could have been another enemy in ME3. -- The Arrival reveals more of the reapers' strategies. Given the above, ME3 wouldn't have needed to change all that much. Replace Cerberus enemies with Collectors. Instead of building the crucible, they're building and retrofitting fleets. Shepard is still trying to get them all to work together instead of individually trying to defend their own planets. ¯\_(ヅ)_/¯ Yes, but then we wouldn't be forced to indulge in the Cerberus fantasy which someone at Bioware clearly has a hardon for. On a personally note. ME2 has always felt like a total disconnect to me, and especially for my Shepard who has the SS background. But as per my reply, someone at Bioware had a hardon for Cerberus, and thus MY Shepard doesn't exist in ME2.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2019 14:17:23 GMT
Yes, but then we wouldn't be forced to indulge in the Cerberus fantasy which someone at Bioware clearly has a hardon for.  On a personally note. ME2 has always felt like a total disconnect to me, and especially for my Shepard who has the SS background. But as per my reply, someone at Bioware had a hardon for Cerberus, and thus MY Shepard doesn't exist in ME2. I think the hardon for Cerberus is much more practical than people think. You can only fight Reaper stooges for so long in ME3, without fighting the actual Reapers, before people wake up to it. Which is why playing up Cerberus in ME2 and even more so in ME3 is purposeful. So you fight Cerberus for 50% of the time in ME3. Is it a good compromise? No. But we know you can't fight the Reapers, as we were told from ME1 and you need someone to fight in ME3 and since the theme of ME is unity, community etc. you can't build all this trust and all these alliances and fight between the same people in ME3, even the Mercs, because it is counter intuitive. But Cerberus is perfect for that task. Which, again, is a conceptual problem with the Reapers. I don't like it, you don't like it, nobody likes it, but as with many things about ME3 that Bioware got wrong, it's not ME2's fault. |
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 12, 2019 16:03:03 GMT
I do agree with the observations concerning ME3 to some extent, but the "hardon" for Cerberus started in ME2, right in the beginning. Shepard (and all plot threads regarding the Reapers from ME) are KILLED in ME2's intro. The Council and the Alliance, the latter being pretty protective of their colonies in ME and actually -benefitting- from the Reaper threat because it got humanity into galatic spotlight, are rendered either apathetic or downright braindead. All in order to make Cerberus appear as a viable alternative, which it is not. Writer and dialogue wheel then railraod an similarly brainedead (or amnesic?) Shepard into being TIMs Yes-(wo)man, apparently because "them bugs kill humanz!!". Shepard is neither permitted to argue against or in favour (!) of working for a bunch of racist/specicist terrorist that, with the possible exceptions of Lazarus, managed to fubar all their unethical science projects. That's not an RPG, that is more like CoD. You are not allowed to open the door unless the writer (a "superior" in CoD) says so.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2019 16:23:05 GMT
I do agree with the observations concerning ME3 to some extent, but the "hardon" for Cerberus started in ME2, right in the beginning. Shepard (and all plot threads regarding the Reapers from ME) are KILLED in ME2's intro. The Council and the Alliance, the latter being pretty protective of their colonies in ME and actually -benefitting- from the Reaper threat because it got humanity into galatic spotlight, are rendered either apathetic or downright braindead. All in order to make Cerberus appear as a viable alternative, which it is not. Writer and dialogue wheel then railraod an similarly brainedead (or amnesic?) Shepard into being TIMs Yes-(wo)man, apparently because "them bugs kill humanz!!". Shepard is neither permitted to argue against or in favour (!) of working for a bunch of racist/specicist terrorist that, with the possible exceptions of Lazarus, managed to fubar all their unethical science projects. That's not an RPG, that is more like CoD. You are not allowed to open the door unless the writer (a "superior" in CoD) says so. I do want to point out that Cerberus does give you your life back, your ship and as many surviving members of your crew want to join you. TIM just asks you to take a look at it and if you don't, you are free to go. So we do take the ship, because we'd be dumb not to and agree to take a look. As for Akuze, as always, TIM blames a rogue cell. Maybe if you disagree, Miranda shoots you and installs the control chip, at which point you wouldn't be able to control your Shepard, anyway. I think of that as a "game over" option, much like Control and Synthesis endings, but one that Bioware doesn't let you choose or show. After all, Cerberus isn't a charity, they're a human supremacist organization.
God, I miss Miranda.
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Post by AnDromedary on Sept 12, 2019 22:38:08 GMT
[...] a bunch of racist/specicist terrorist that, with the possible exceptions of Lazarus, managed to fubar all their unethical science projects. [...] One of my favorite exchanges during the party in the Citadel DLC is when they point out that technically, the Lazarus project was just as much a fubar as all their other stuff. At least from their perspective:
Joker (to Jacob and Miranda): You know, I miss the days when Cerberus was just hilariously incompetent ... You know, when you two ran things. Jacob: Excuse me? Miranda: The only thing I was in charge of was the Lazarus Project, which - you will note - was very successful. Joker (imitating voice): "Hey Commander, this is Cerberus, we were studying some rachni and they got loose and killed all our guys. Can you take care of that? It's one system over from where we hooked some guy up to the geth, who then got loose and killed all our guys." Shepard: They did rack up quite a body count, which back then was usually their own bodies. Jacob: We knew some cells were bad but the Alliance and the Council weren't doing anything. We were doing good work. Miranda: But we did bring Commander Shepard back. Shepard: And after taking down the collectors I cut ties with Cerberus, got loose and started killing all their guys. Joker: For which we thank you. EDI: Jeff, do you remember that I am also a Cerberus project? Joker: Oh crap!
Hehe, never gets old. 
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Post by themikefest on Sept 12, 2019 22:47:19 GMT
Joker (to Jacob and Miranda): You know, I miss the days when Cerberus was just hilariously incompetent ... You know, when you two ran things. Yet you joined them because you could fly, didn't you Moreau?
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Post by AnDromedary on Sept 12, 2019 23:08:23 GMT
Joker (to Jacob and Miranda): You know, I miss the days when Cerberus was just hilariously incompetent ... You know, when you two ran things. Yet you joined them because you could fly, didn't you Moreau? Yea, Miranda's comeback should have just been "Leather seats Joker, we made the best leather seats." 
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Sept 13, 2019 1:30:29 GMT
Joker (to Jacob and Miranda): You know, I miss the days when Cerberus was just hilariously incompetent ... You know, when you two ran things. Yet you joined them because you could fly, didn't you Moreau? I actually considered that the most legit reason out of all the people showing up. Don’t take a birds wings. |
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Post by AnDromedary on Sept 13, 2019 15:58:16 GMT
Yet you joined them because you could fly, didn't you Moreau? I actually considered that the most legit reason out of all the people showing up. Don’t take a birds wings. I actually never understood why the Alliance would ground Joker after the destruction of the SR1. I mean, sure the cutscene is quite stupid in the sense that Joker kinda flies into the collector ship beam but I doubt BW really wanted to imply that loosing the ship was Joker's fault.
I mean, Ash/Kaidan got sent back on missions (and even got a promotion). Why exactly did they not let Joker fly on another ship? He was supposed to be THE best pilot of the whole dam space-navy and apparently he did a hell of a job back during the battle of the Citadel, even firing the shot that finally destroyed Sovereign. Doesn't quite make sense to me to waste such an asset. And even if they grounded him for some reason or another, why go to a terrorist organization? Why not go private sector or something? It's like he read ahead in the script and new they'd be teamed up with Shepard again eventually or something. Yet, when you meet him for the first time in ME2, he outright says he didn't expect to see you.
Same goes for Chakwas by the way. In ME1, she was a military physician to the bone. She even talks about how working with soldiers is something she wouldn't want to give up. But then, she joins a bunch of highly unethical terrorists who routinely torture and slaughter people.
Both of them had first hand experience with Cerberus' methods in ME1. Both of them are highly skilled, highly decorated officers in the Alliance. The fact that a) the Alliance would just sideline them and  they'd just join Cerberus on a whim is absurd. ME2 would already have been better if it had been up to Shepard to recruit the both of them somehow after s/he woke up.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2019 16:10:02 GMT
I actually never understood why the Alliance would ground Joker after the destruction of the SR1. Failed Psych Eval. Probably broke a few bones out of excitement when he found out Shep was alive and Cerberus offered him the chance to fly the SR-2. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 16:56:32 GMT
I actually considered that the most legit reason out of all the people showing up. Don’t take a birds wings. I actually never understood why the Alliance would ground Joker after the destruction of the SR1. I mean, sure the cutscene is quite stupid in the sense that Joker kinda flies into the collector ship beam but I doubt BW really wanted to imply that loosing the ship was Joker's fault.
I mean, Ash/Kaidan got sent back on missions (and even got a promotion). Why exactly did they not let Joker fly on another ship? He was supposed to be THE best pilot of the whole dam space-navy and apparently he did a hell of a job back during the battle of the Citadel, even firing the shot that finally destroyed Sovereign. Doesn't quite make sense to me to waste such an asset. And even if they grounded him for some reason or another, why go to a terrorist organization? Why not go private sector or something? It's like he read ahead in the script and new they'd be teamed up with Shepard again eventually or something. Yet, when you meet him for the first time in ME2, he outright says he didn't expect to see you.
Same goes for Chakwas by the way. In ME1, she was a military physician to the bone. She even talks about how working with soldiers is something she wouldn't want to give up. But then, she joins a bunch of highly unethical terrorists who routinely torture and slaughter people.
Both of them had first hand experience with Cerberus' methods in ME1. Both of them are highly skilled, highly decorated officers in the Alliance. The fact that a) the Alliance would just sideline them and they'd just join Cerberus on a whim is absurd. ME2 would already have been better if it had been up to Shepard to recruit the both of them somehow after s/he woke up.
Yeah, I never understood that either... other than Bioware needed an excuse to bring him back as the pilot in ME2 (due to Seth Green's popularity in ME1). By rights, Joker should have got a commendation for continuing to fly and evade, as much as possible, long enough for the shuttles to clear the ship and for Shepard to send the SOS. Most everyone got out alive directly due to his actions.
The line they give is that basically they were side-lining everyone who had anything to do with Shepard but that doesn't make it a rational decision by the Alliance to do that and it certainly doesn't explain why Ashley/Kaiden would not have been side-lined along with the rest. Ashley, in particular, was already having a hard time getting promoted in the Alliance... why would, all of a sudden, she'd be kept and promoted while Joker and Chakwas are let go is beyond me.
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Post by AnDromedary on Sept 13, 2019 17:02:48 GMT
Yeah, I never understood that either... other than Bioware needed an excuse to bring him back as the pilot in ME2 (due to Seth Green's popularity in ME1). By rights, Joker should have got a commendation for continuing to fly and evade, as much as possible, long enough for the shuttles to clear the ship and for Shepard to send the SOS. Most everyone got out alive directly due to his actions.
The line they give is that basically they were side-lining everyone who had anything to do with Shepard but that doesn't make it a rational decision by the Alliance to do that and it certainly doesn't explain why Ashley/Kaiden would not have been side-lined along with the rest. Ashley, in particular, was already having a hard time getting promoted in the Alliance... why would, all of a sudden, she'd be kept and promoted while Joker and Chakwas are let go is beyond me.
Especially since Jacob tells you that Shepard was used as a hero figure and put on recruitment posters for a while after his/her death. In that case, the SR1 crew should have been heroes as well. I could see it like SirSourpuss though. I can see Joker loosing it after that episode with the escape pod and Shepard getting spaced. Maybe he had a bad episode and really failed some psych eval. That sounds like a decent head canon to me. Still, as I said, even if he was grounded, joining Cerberus just like that ... doesn't seem right. And yes, of course they did it because they wanted to bring Seth Green back. I don't mind that at all either. Joker is one of my favorite characters in the trilogy and I am glad he came back. But I still think it would have been better if Shepard actually recruited him back themselves at the beginning of ME2.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 17:21:08 GMT
Yeah, I never understood that either... other than Bioware needed an excuse to bring him back as the pilot in ME2 (due to Seth Green's popularity in ME1). By rights, Joker should have got a commendation for continuing to fly and evade, as much as possible, long enough for the shuttles to clear the ship and for Shepard to send the SOS. Most everyone got out alive directly due to his actions.
The line they give is that basically they were side-lining everyone who had anything to do with Shepard but that doesn't make it a rational decision by the Alliance to do that and it certainly doesn't explain why Ashley/Kaiden would not have been side-lined along with the rest. Ashley, in particular, was already having a hard time getting promoted in the Alliance... why would, all of a sudden, she'd be kept and promoted while Joker and Chakwas are let go is beyond me.
Especially since Jacob tells you that Shepard was used as a hero figure and put on recruitment posters for a while after his/her death. In that case, the SR1 crew should have been heroes as well. I could see it like SirSourpuss though. I can see Joker loosing it after that episode with the escape pod and Shepard getting spaced. Maybe he had a bad episode and really failed some psych eval. That sounds like a decent head canon to me. Still, as I said, even if he was grounded, joining Cerberus just like that ... doesn't seem right. And yes, of course they did it because they wanted to bring Seth Green back. I don't mind that at all either. Joker is one of my favorite characters in the trilogy and I am glad he came back. But I still think it would have been better if Shepard actually recruited him back themselves at the beginning of ME2.
I agree that it would have been better if Shepard recruited him. They could have easily started ME2 with EDI flying the ship and some Shepards not liking that idea at all and going off-sheet to recruit Joker in spite of TIM's objections. It would have been an interesting dynamic to have to have Joker convince EDI that he's better at flying a ship than she is... instead of really just having her concede that point.
I don't really see Joker failing a psych eval. He worked through a lot just to get aboard the SR1. Even so, that sort of scenario could have worked much better if Shepard was doing the recruiting. Shep could have then tracked Joker down wasting away in some bar and convinced him to come back to work with Shep in a secret plot to eventually take down Cerberus, along with the Collectors AND acquire a replacement for the SR1 for the Alliance. The whole story could have been treated more as an accidental "undercover" op for Shepard with both the Council and Alliance giving Shepard their blessing to use the opportunity to infiltrate Cerberus. It could have been that Anderson had some intel that Cerberus was experimenting with huskifying people and wanted to determine how they might fit into the Reaper picture.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Sept 13, 2019 19:51:33 GMT
I actually considered that the most legit reason out of all the people showing up. Don’t take a birds wings. I actually never understood why the Alliance would ground Joker after the destruction of the SR1. I mean, sure the cutscene is quite stupid in the sense that Joker kinda flies into the collector ship beam but I doubt BW really wanted to imply that loosing the ship was Joker's fault.
I mean, Ash/Kaidan got sent back on missions (and even got a promotion). Why exactly did they not let Joker fly on another ship? He was supposed to be THE best pilot of the whole dam space-navy and apparently he did a hell of a job back during the battle of the Citadel, even firing the shot that finally destroyed Sovereign. Doesn't quite make sense to me to waste such an asset. And even if they grounded him for some reason or another, why go to a terrorist organization? Why not go private sector or something? It's like he read ahead in the script and new they'd be teamed up with Shepard again eventually or something. Yet, when you meet him for the first time in ME2, he outright says he didn't expect to see you.
Same goes for Chakwas by the way. In ME1, she was a military physician to the bone. She even talks about how working with soldiers is something she wouldn't want to give up. But then, she joins a bunch of highly unethical terrorists who routinely torture and slaughter people.
Both of them had first hand experience with Cerberus' methods in ME1. Both of them are highly skilled, highly decorated officers in the Alliance. The fact that a) the Alliance would just sideline them and they'd just join Cerberus on a whim is absurd. ME2 would already have been better if it had been up to Shepard to recruit the both of them somehow after s/he woke up.
Agree with most of that. It as for why not civilian I assume combat missions have a rush that civilian life won’t. |
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Post by ahglock on Sept 13, 2019 19:54:16 GMT
I actually never understood why the Alliance would ground Joker after the destruction of the SR1. I mean, sure the cutscene is quite stupid in the sense that Joker kinda flies into the collector ship beam but I doubt BW really wanted to imply that loosing the ship was Joker's fault.
I mean, Ash/Kaidan got sent back on missions (and even got a promotion). Why exactly did they not let Joker fly on another ship? He was supposed to be THE best pilot of the whole dam space-navy and apparently he did a hell of a job back during the battle of the Citadel, even firing the shot that finally destroyed Sovereign. Doesn't quite make sense to me to waste such an asset. And even if they grounded him for some reason or another, why go to a terrorist organization? Why not go private sector or something? It's like he read ahead in the script and new they'd be teamed up with Shepard again eventually or something. Yet, when you meet him for the first time in ME2, he outright says he didn't expect to see you.
Same goes for Chakwas by the way. In ME1, she was a military physician to the bone. She even talks about how working with soldiers is something she wouldn't want to give up. But then, she joins a bunch of highly unethical terrorists who routinely torture and slaughter people.
Both of them had first hand experience with Cerberus' methods in ME1. Both of them are highly skilled, highly decorated officers in the Alliance. The fact that a) the Alliance would just sideline them and they'd just join Cerberus on a whim is absurd. ME2 would already have been better if it had been up to Shepard to recruit the both of them somehow after s/he woke up.
Yeah, I never understood that either... other than Bioware needed an excuse to bring him back as the pilot in ME2 (due to Seth Green's popularity in ME1). By rights, Joker should have got a commendation for continuing to fly and evade, as much as possible, long enough for the shuttles to clear the ship and for Shepard to send the SOS. Most everyone got out alive directly due to his actions.
The line they give is that basically they were side-lining everyone who had anything to do with Shepard but that doesn't make it a rational decision by the Alliance to do that and it certainly doesn't explain why Ashley/Kaiden would not have been side-lined along with the rest. Ashley, in particular, was already having a hard time getting promoted in the Alliance... why would, all of a sudden, she'd be kept and promoted while Joker and Chakwas are let go is beyond me.
Shepard was publicly popular but toxic in politics. So I assumed it was a political thing. Some people knew to throw Shepard under the bus and got promotions others refused and got side lined. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 20:24:19 GMT
Yeah, I never understood that either... other than Bioware needed an excuse to bring him back as the pilot in ME2 (due to Seth Green's popularity in ME1). By rights, Joker should have got a commendation for continuing to fly and evade, as much as possible, long enough for the shuttles to clear the ship and for Shepard to send the SOS. Most everyone got out alive directly due to his actions.
The line they give is that basically they were side-lining everyone who had anything to do with Shepard but that doesn't make it a rational decision by the Alliance to do that and it certainly doesn't explain why Ashley/Kaiden would not have been side-lined along with the rest. Ashley, in particular, was already having a hard time getting promoted in the Alliance... why would, all of a sudden, she'd be kept and promoted while Joker and Chakwas are let go is beyond me.
Shepard was publicly popular but toxic in politics. So I assumed it was a political thing. Some people knew to throw Shepard under the bus and got promotions others refused and got side lined. So Ashley/Kaidan despite all their posturing and possibly being so "in love" with Shepard were the quickest to throw him/her under the bus to advance their own careers. I actually agree with you. Joker wouldn't do that, so he/she was dismissed by the Alliance, was the "company line" they were going with in ME2. Therefore, there should have been an option for Shepard to shoot Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon. I never did understand how they walked out unharmed after we saw them immobilized very early on in the attack and there were right next to poor Sam and Lilith when they were immobilizaed. They should have been packed away in a pod on board the ship long before Shepard took down the Praetorian.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 13, 2019 21:08:36 GMT
I actually considered that the most legit reason out of all the people showing up. Don’t take a birds wings. I actually never understood why the Alliance would ground Joker after the destruction of the SR1. I mean, sure the cutscene is quite stupid in the sense that Joker kinda flies into the collector ship beam but I doubt BW really wanted to imply that loosing the ship was Joker's fault.
I mean, Ash/Kaidan got sent back on missions (and even got a promotion). Why exactly did they not let Joker fly on another ship? He was supposed to be THE best pilot of the whole dam space-navy and apparently he did a hell of a job back during the battle of the Citadel, even firing the shot that finally destroyed Sovereign. Doesn't quite make sense to me to waste such an asset. And even if they grounded him for some reason or another, why go to a terrorist organization? Why not go private sector or something? It's like he read ahead in the script and new they'd be teamed up with Shepard again eventually or something. Yet, when you meet him for the first time in ME2, he outright says he didn't expect to see you.
Same goes for Chakwas by the way. In ME1, she was a military physician to the bone. She even talks about how working with soldiers is something she wouldn't want to give up. But then, she joins a bunch of highly unethical terrorists who routinely torture and slaughter people.
Both of them had first hand experience with Cerberus' methods in ME1. Both of them are highly skilled, highly decorated officers in the Alliance. The fact that a) the Alliance would just sideline them and  they'd just join Cerberus on a whim is absurd. ME2 would already have been better if it had been up to Shepard to recruit the both of them somehow after s/he woke up.
Joker did read ahead in the srcipt. A lot of people do it in ME2. By ME3 it is usually TIM only though. Oh, and thanks for posting the link to Shamus Young's blog somewhere else.  He basically nails it: Somebody at BW apparently wanted us to be Cerberus fans, regardless of how many illogical twists it would take. Never worked for me. Muahahaha.
Especially since Jacob tells you that Shepard was used as a hero figure and put on recruitment posters for a while after his/her death. In that case, the SR1 crew should have been heroes as well. I could see it like SirSourpuss though. I can see Joker loosing it after that episode with the escape pod and Shepard getting spaced. Maybe he had a bad episode and really failed some psych eval. That sounds like a decent head canon to me. Still, as I said, even if he was grounded, joining Cerberus just like that ... doesn't seem right. And yes, of course they did it because they wanted to bring Seth Green back. I don't mind that at all either. Joker is one of my favorite characters in the trilogy and I am glad he came back. But I still think it would have been better if Shepard actually recruited him back themselves at the beginning of ME2.
-snip-
I don't really see Joker failing a psych eval. He worked through a lot just to get aboard the SR1. Even so, that sort of scenario could have worked much better if Shepard was doing the recruiting. Shep could have then tracked Joker down wasting away in some bar and convinced him to come back to work with Shep in a secret plot to eventually take down Cerberus, along with the Collectors AND acquire a replacement for the SR1 for the Alliance. The whole story could have been treated more as an accidental "undercover" op for Shepard with both the Council and Alliance giving Shepard their blessing to use the opportunity to infiltrate Cerberus. It could have been that Anderson had some intel that Cerberus was experimenting with huskifying people and wanted to determine how they might fit into the Reaper picture.
I would have liked that.  But as I said above, it would not have flown as Shepard is intended as a Cerbeus mook because somebodysaid so.  Shepard was publicly popular but toxic in politics. So I assumed it was a political thing. Some people knew to throw Shepard under the bus and got promotions others refused and got side lined. So Ashley/Kaidan despite all their posturing and possibly being so "in love" with Shepard were the quickest to throw him/her under the bus to advance their own careers. I actually agree with you. Joker wouldn't do that, so he/she was dismissed by the Alliance, was the "company line" they were going with in ME2. Therefore, there should have been an option for Shepard to shoot Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon. I never did understand how they walked out unharmed after we saw them immobilized very early on in the attack and there were right next to poor Sam and Lilith when they were immobilizaed. They should have been packed away in a pod on board the ship long before Shepard took down the Praetorian.
Why should we want to shoot them, except for being butthurt at Shepard's enforced Cerberus connection?
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Post by themikefest on Sept 13, 2019 21:47:53 GMT
Shoot A/K on Horizon? I would be ok with that if my Shepard can shoot t'soni for having Shepard's armor on display like it's some kind of prize. Shoot her for having Shepard's dna plastered throughout her apartment. Shoot her for not making any effort to inform anyone that Shepard's body is in the hands of Cerberus. How about shooting Moreau for not leaving the bridge when the evacuation order was given leading to Shepard dying. How about shooting the clown calling himself Anderson? He did say it was up to Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers. He never cared. To heck with it. Just shoot everyone.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Sept 14, 2019 2:10:57 GMT
Shepard was publicly popular but toxic in politics. So I assumed it was a political thing. Some people knew to throw Shepard under the bus and got promotions others refused and got side lined. So Ashley/Kaidan despite all their posturing and possibly being so "in love" with Shepard were the quickest to throw him/her under the bus to advance their own careers. I actually agree with you. Joker wouldn't do that, so he/she was dismissed by the Alliance, was the "company line" they were going with in ME2. Therefore, there should have been an option for Shepard to shoot Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon. I never did understand how they walked out unharmed after we saw them immobilized very early on in the attack and there were right next to poor Sam and Lilith when they were immobilizaed. They should have been packed away in a pod on board the ship long before Shepard took down the Praetorian. I could just be a cynic who worked in large organizations both public and private too long. And I've seen why people get promoted or sidelined. Its rarely because of how good they are at their job.
I wouldn't be opposed to more renegade shoot old/current squad mates options though it seems a bit out of character for how I'd play them.
And yeah it was bizarre how they weren't taken along with the rest of the town in the immediate area.
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they'd just join Cerberus on a whim is absurd.
they'd just join Cerberus on a whim is absurd.
He basically nails it: Somebody at BW apparently wanted us to be Cerberus fans, regardless of how many illogical twists it would take. Never worked for me. Muahahaha.
But as I said above, it would not have flown as Shepard is intended as a Cerbeus mook because somebodysaid so. 