grallon
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grallon
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Post by grallon on Nov 8, 2024 19:24:55 GMT
Well, for one... they could have given a bigger role to the elven army we were told Solas was gathering. This army as the main recurring enemy instead of the non-sensical Venatori. That's a start.
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Post by theratpack55 on Nov 8, 2024 19:31:52 GMT
You don't even need to look at other games. I've recently replayed BG II and contrast is jarring. Can you imagine the reaction of their leads if one of the writers wanted toput character like Edwin in their game ( powerhungry asshole mysognist) Companions constantly bicker, threaten, mock, take jabs at one another. Even the paladin paragons like Keldorn have real flaws and darker side to them. Edwin was my favorite companion in BG2, took that guy everywhere. I've even sided with Lorroakan in BG3 on the slight chance it may be Edwin after all...
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andorvex
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Free me now, I'm not answering questions, blah blah blah. Don't you know who I am?
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Free me now, I'm not answering questions, blah blah blah. Don't you know who I am?
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Post by andorvex on Nov 8, 2024 19:34:01 GMT
Obligatory "Korgan based" comment
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Nov 8, 2024 19:58:51 GMT
The more I reflect on the DAV, the more sad and frustrated I become. While I really enjoy almost all of main storyline, it's upsetting to see how weak of a cast companions are. All highlights of the game for me come from characters of previous games (except Isabella). Weekes mentioned that this cast is the most diverse yet. At the same time I only see superficial diversity, that doesn't go beyond race or appearance. Every one of them is a good guy. You can only be friend with one another. Every confrontation is resolved almost right away. Compare them to Vivienne, Bull, Cole, Solas. Blackwall, who I found the most boring character in DAI, is above half of companions in DAV. I watched a number of reviews, almost all of them say they loved talking to Solas and third act. So we see that the mastery of writing is still there. So why does almost every companion sucks ass? Your party is the core of each game. It's especially jarring when you see side to side comparison with BG3. But also look how Solas vs Elganan exchange is written: You don't even need to look at other games. I've recently replayed BG II and contrast is jarring. Can you imagine the reaction of their leads if one of the writers wanted toput character like Edwin in their game ( powerhungry asshole mysognist) Companions constantly bicker, threaten, mock, take jabs at one another. Even the paladin paragons like Keldorn have real flaws and darker side to them. Baldur's Gate 2, where travelling too long with companions of diametrically opposing philosophies will eventually lead to them throwing down and one of your companions getting irretrievably killed. It was glorious.
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emissaryoflies
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Post by emissaryoflies on Nov 8, 2024 20:17:55 GMT
I remember when they said that this game was taking place in Northern Thedas and thus the south is irrelevant and unnecessary. I hated this at first. How they're going to ignore all the character development and world shaping events of the last three games. And now, playing and witnessing what they've done to the North? I am extremely grateful. I did not like that they changed the names of most of the factions. Now? I am ever more grateful. There is now hope. A small hope that a talented crew of writers can dig this franchise out of the pit. All the inconsistences, ignorance of the lore, and vapid writing is all contained to Northern Thedas. The Chantry was right. God damn.
Edit: And every fucking time I try to give these so called writers a break, they kill me. It's come to attention that the above post is completely inaccurate. We're fucked.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 8, 2024 20:33:28 GMT
Harding is so eloquent in DAV... Talking with Davrin about Morrigan and if she can be trusted: "Morrigan... knows things." Does not elaborate. Why, glad we had that conversation!
They all talk in that stunted teenage manner. It's driving me crazy.
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Post by Adia on Nov 8, 2024 21:16:16 GMT
In these conversations, Vivienne shows remarkable introspection, insight, and competence skills. Especially the line about Solas: "So much knowledge with so little personal history. I find that... peculiar..." she's apologetically opinionated, in a very entertaining way. And her conclusions are fairly accurate. Which shouldn't come as a surprise - she's supposed to be this great scholar, who is incredibly smart and capable - and it definitely shows. There are other areas, such as her conversations in Well of Sorrows (if you bring her) with Morrigain, in which she showing very consistent character writing, and poses a great contrast to Morrigain herself; both are hungry for power and knowledge, yet Vivienne knows better than to make any rush decisions without considering the consequences first - unlike Morrigain, which, Morrigain herself later on regrets if she drinks from the well.
Absolutely brilliant writing by Mary Kirby, and a phenomenal performance by the voice actress. What happened? why did we sacrifice high quality, complex, mature writing for a Disney flick with modern lingo, therapy fluff and modern politics? Veilguard is an absolute stain on the franchise. Nothing makes me more mad seeing how masterfully crafted the companions in Inquisition were compared to Veilguard. Oh no, Bellara has social anxiety and Tassh is constantly misgendered. Boo hoo. The more I think about it the angrier I get
Considering that writing team was almost the same as in DAI, I have to conclude it’s the result of Patrick Weekes being the lead and Epler narrative director. Looking at previous games, I think Gaider leaned towards exploring darker themes and curating his team into that direction. A lot of the times with companions, I was given a hint of something darker, a promise of controversy. But as their arcs unfolded, it was underwhelming as if narrative stopped a pace away from getting serious. As an example, look at Lucanis. He started very strong: an elite assassin, who was tortured for a year and is possessed by a demon who wants to take over. Then this conflict is barely explored : we get a scene where Spite takes over but we talk it over. Lucanis is blind to an obvious betrayal and acts like a grown kid at times (ohh, kniwes! Ohh, wyverns! Let me cook something special for everyone!). He and spite become friends… because. Remember how deamon used to physically hurt him, so his nose bleed? Nah, lets scrap it. In this game everyone can love everyone. Can become friends with everyone. Background doesn’t matter, status doesn’t matter, history doesn’t matter. Bellara is fangirling over Tevinter mage, somehow reads Tevinter newspapers. Dalish accept everyone and, per Rooks dialogue, don’t own vallaslin. And speak with American accent, apparently. Spite could've been Lucanis' punishment for being an assassin who kills innocent people for money. It would've opened a path for him redeem himself and let it be his motivation for saving the world, to make up for the damage he's already done. Zara could've been a victim of his- she wanted to give the man who killed her loved ones a fate worse than death, so she made a demon posses his body and locked him in an underwater prison to make sure he doesn't escape.
A child bought by the Crows, to be turned into a killing machine, who never gave a second thought about finishing a contract. But no. Because that would've been an interesting story. I can't say I'm not disappointed by Mary Kirby (she wrote Lucanis), but if I were to point fingers it would've been Weeks and Epler at fault 100%.
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Post by Ieldra on Nov 8, 2024 21:29:25 GMT
You don't even need to look at other games. I've recently replayed BG II and contrast is jarring. Can you imagine the reaction of their leads if one of the writers wanted toput character like Edwin in their game ( powerhungry asshole mysognist) Companions constantly bicker, threaten, mock, take jabs at one another. Even the paladin paragons like Keldorn have real flaws and darker side to them. It is almost too funny to not imagine their reaction to characters like Korgan or Edwin. Or Viconia mocking Nalia for her "bleeding heart" way of looking at the world and for being a "slumming noblewoman". Heads would surely explode.
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Post by journey95 on Nov 8, 2024 21:59:25 GMT
I finished the game for the first time today and I have to say the last arc was pretty damm great, really intense and very ME2 esque. Its a shame the rest of the game feels so goofy in comparison with it and the Weisshaupt mission (which was also great).
If the game was consistently as great and serious then it wouldn't be getting so much deserved backlash. But instead we have way too many silly scenes at the lighthouse that break the immersion, shitty dialogue, dragged out companion quests and dumbed down lore
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Post by journey95 on Nov 8, 2024 22:01:31 GMT
You don't even need to look at other games. I've recently replayed BG II and contrast is jarring. Can you imagine the reaction of their leads if one of the writers wanted toput character like Edwin in their game ( powerhungry asshole mysognist) Companions constantly bicker, threaten, mock, take jabs at one another. Even the paladin paragons like Keldorn have real flaws and darker side to them. It is almost too funny to not imagine their reaction to characters like Korgan or Edwin. Or Viconia mocking Nalia for her "bleeding heart" way of looking at the world and for being a "slumming noblewoman". Heads would surely explode. To be honest you wouldn't have such dialogue in most games, shows etc. these days. Overall american/western entertainment has become way too afraid of offending anyone. I don't think this is a Bioware specific problem. But you can be "woke" and still deliver quality writing see BG3 or Cyberpunk 2077
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Post by fylimar on Nov 8, 2024 22:04:51 GMT
You don't even need to look at other games. I've recently replayed BG II and contrast is jarring. Can you imagine the reaction of their leads if one of the writers wanted toput character like Edwin in their game ( powerhungry asshole mysognist) Companions constantly bicker, threaten, mock, take jabs at one another. Even the paladin paragons like Keldorn have real flaws and darker side to them. Baldur's Gate 2, where travelling too long with companions of diametrically opposing philosophies will eventually lead to them throwing down and one of your companions getting irretrievably killed. It was glorious.
I never forget Keldorn and Viconia coming to blows in the middle of that temple quest under the city - and Keldorn killing Viconia. And suddenly I was there with one person short. First playthrough back in teh days, I learned from my mistake.
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rocketpineapple
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Post by rocketpineapple on Nov 8, 2024 22:25:18 GMT
I've had low workload the past few weeks and have been subjected to dozens of corporate courses on trust and diversity... DAV is so toothless and unrealistic it's really frustrating. This is not a fantasy game, this is modern day office culture the game. And there is your answer... ----- But I see a lot of thoughtful people in this thread. Instead of bemoaning what is, I think it would be a more stimulating (and fun) exercise to write what Dreadwolf could have been, together. Then when the brainstorming is done, the most skilled writers among us could wrap it all together in a narrative. And if there are any gifted illustrators here, they could show us what we've created. That way, we can turn this debacle into something worthwhile. What do you all say? I'm interested. Would this be taking what there is and improving it (I.e. fixing the existing companions) or going with the what could have been from earlier iterations?
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emissaryoflies
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Post by emissaryoflies on Nov 8, 2024 23:23:46 GMT
Did one of Peebee's personal quests. It was designed in such a way to be fitting for toddlers, as is custom in Veilguard. Learned that Peebee harbors guilt over a mishap that she feels responsible for. She showed some range of emotional depth and her behavior earlier on now makes a bit more sense. Rook stepped up to assume his role as guidance counselor and helped the bird feel that she wasn't alone. This quest was the most tolerable she's been in the entirety of Act I. If they do anything with this, I daresay they might actually have a character and not a caricature. It remains to be seen.
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Post by witchcocktor on Nov 9, 2024 0:39:25 GMT
I've had low workload the past few weeks and have been subjected to dozens of corporate courses on trust and diversity... DAV is so toothless and unrealistic it's really frustrating. This is not a fantasy game, this is modern day office culture the game. And there is your answer... ----- But I see a lot of thoughtful people in this thread. Instead of bemoaning what is, I think it would be a more stimulating (and fun) exercise to write what Dreadwolf could have been, together. Then when the brainstorming is done, the most skilled writers among us could wrap it all together in a narrative. And if there are any gifted illustrators here, they could show us what we've created. That way, we can turn this debacle into something worthwhile. What do you all say? I feel like even if we generally have consensus over the issues of the game, what each of us actually wanted out of DA4 might differ much more heavily lolz.
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Post by necrowaif on Nov 9, 2024 0:56:37 GMT
I feel like even if we generally have consensus over the issues of the game, what each of us actually wanted out of DA4 might differ much more heavily lolz. Definitely. It’s also keeping that in miind with a big creative project like Veilguard - there’s a lot of people working on it and they all have different ideas of what it should be, so it’s a wonder they manage to make anything at all.
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grallon
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Post by grallon on Nov 9, 2024 1:02:55 GMT
I feel like even if we generally have consensus over the issues of the game, what each of us actually wanted out of DA4 might differ much more heavily lolz. Which is why I said "brainstorming" - before anything concrete is written.
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grallon
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Post by grallon on Nov 9, 2024 1:04:33 GMT
I'm interested. Would this be taking what there is and improving it (I.e. fixing the existing companions) or going with the what could have been from earlier iterations? I don't know about you but personally I'd rather start after the end of Trespasser and dispense with this crew altogether.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Nov 9, 2024 1:07:11 GMT
Baldur's Gate 2, where travelling too long with companions of diametrically opposing philosophies will eventually lead to them throwing down and one of your companions getting irretrievably killed. It was glorious.
I never forget Keldorn and Viconia coming to blows in the middle of that temple quest under the city - and Keldorn killing Viconia. And suddenly I was there with one person short. First playthrough back in teh days, I learned from my mistake.
I think for me it was having Edwin and Minsc in the group together. And Edwin mocked Dynaheir's death one to many times...
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Post by Donk on Nov 9, 2024 1:11:38 GMT
Did one of Peebee's personal quests. It was designed in such a way to be fitting for toddlers, as is custom in Veilguard. Learned that Peebee harbors guilt over a mishap that she feels responsible for. She showed some range of emotional depth and her behavior earlier on now makes a bit more sense. Rook stepped up to assume his role as guidance counselor and helped the bird feel that she wasn't alone. This quest was the most tolerable she's been in the entirety of Act I. If they do anything with this, I daresay they might actually have a character and not a caricature. It remains to be seen. Interesting, I found her more irritating than ever before when I got up to this quest.
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rocketpineapple
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Post by rocketpineapple on Nov 9, 2024 1:29:19 GMT
Did one of Peebee's personal quests. It was designed in such a way to be fitting for toddlers, as is custom in Veilguard. Learned that Peebee harbors guilt over a mishap that she feels responsible for. She showed some range of emotional depth and her behavior earlier on now makes a bit more sense. Rook stepped up to assume his role as guidance counselor and helped the bird feel that she wasn't alone. This quest was the most tolerable she's been in the entirety of Act I. If they do anything with this, I daresay they might actually have a character and not a caricature. It remains to be seen. I actually liked her from this too, but I think it's just that I found that level of anxiety and guilt pretty relatable. There's definitely moments that work in the companion quests - maybe not work for everyone but there's something in there. Just more often than not it's written poorly or not expanded upon. For all the time in dev hell, the writing just feels so rushed.
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