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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 21, 2021 19:58:08 GMT
Hence them saying “had it been” literally before where your underline starts. But the underlined stuff is STILL happening Pretty sure that was the point of that post. They were saying whether IT was fake or real, either way we’d be in the same situation. Thus IT doesn’t fix anything.
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Post by shermos on Jun 22, 2021 6:12:02 GMT
To be honest though, when I played the EC way back when, I think I was still too raw from the original ending that I didn't appreciate it as much. Also it's worth noting that in high EMS destroy ending, when they show all the people you lost, they didn't show images of EDI or the Geth. So I reckon they all good. I mean the Catalyst threatened you saying that you're partly synthetic and you wake up for a few more excruciating seconds before suffocating and bleeding out under the rubble. So he was wrong about me, he's wrong about EDI and the Geth. I'd like that to be true, but until I see evidence clearly showing EDI and and the Geth can survive destroy, control will remain my Shep's canon ending. I didn't think Bioware would ever contemplate canonising IT since they have been so resistant to canonising any ending, let alone a fanfic. It seems like the best bet is the writers will make what happened after Shepard entered the beam be an unknown to the people of the next game. Even Shep may not remember due to the trauma suffered if s/he survives.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 28, 2021 18:10:54 GMT
I pity anyone who ACTUALLY thought IT was the real "secret" meaning of the ending. It's a fun theory but come on now.
To be honest though, when I played the EC way back when, I think I was still too raw from the original ending that I didn't appreciate it as much. Also it's worth noting that in high EMS destroy ending, when they show all the people you lost, they didn't show images of EDI or the Geth. So I reckon they all good. I mean the Catalyst threatened you saying that you're partly synthetic and you wake up for a few more excruciating seconds before suffocating and bleeding out under the rubble. So he was wrong about me, he's wrong about EDI and the Geth. I'd like that to be true, but until I see evidence clearly showing EDI and and the Geth can survive destroy, control will remain my Shep's canon ending. I didn't think Bioware would ever contemplate canonising IT since they have been so resistant to canonising any ending, let alone a fanfic. It seems like the best bet is the writers will make what happened after Shepard entered the beam be an unknown to the people of the next game. Even Shep may not remember due to the trauma suffered if s/he survives. In LE they went out of their way to ensure that EDI appears on a nameplate within view of the cinematic framing during the memorial scene in high EMS Destroy, now. She's dead.
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jul 4, 2021 3:09:34 GMT
To be honest though, when I played the EC way back when, I think I was still too raw from the original ending that I didn't appreciate it as much. Also it's worth noting that in high EMS destroy ending, when they show all the people you lost, they didn't show images of EDI or the Geth. So I reckon they all good. I mean the Catalyst threatened you saying that you're partly synthetic and you wake up for a few more excruciating seconds before suffocating and bleeding out under the rubble. So he was wrong about me, he's wrong about EDI and the Geth. I'd like that to be true, but until I see evidence clearly showing EDI and and the Geth can survive destroy, control will remain my Shep's canon ending. I didn't think Bioware would ever contemplate canonising IT since they have been so resistant to canonising any ending, let alone a fanfic. It seems like the best bet is the writers will make what happened after Shepard entered the beam be an unknown to the people of the next game. Even Shep may not remember due to the trauma suffered if s/he survives. Except it wouldn't be the first time they've canonized an ending at the expense of someone else's ending. It's entirely possible to have everyone die in the suicide mission at the end of ME2, including Shepard. Yet the game still plays out and ends afterwards. Obviously with the existence of ME3 this ending is not canon anymore, therefore setting a precedent for them to do it again in ME4 with the Destroy ending.
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Post by skekSil on Jul 5, 2021 9:48:45 GMT
It's entirely possible to have everyone die in the suicide mission at the end of ME2, including Shepard. Yet the game still plays out and ends afterwards. Obviously with the existence of ME3 this ending is not canon anymore, therefore setting a precedent for them to do it again in ME4 with the Destroy ending. You cant import that ending into ME3. Therefore whatever happens after Shep dies in ME2 is unknown, because its not part of Shep's story. But it doesnt mean its uncanonical.
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Post by shermos on Jul 6, 2021 5:19:53 GMT
It's entirely possible to have everyone die in the suicide mission at the end of ME2, including Shepard. Yet the game still plays out and ends afterwards. Obviously with the existence of ME3 this ending is not canon anymore, therefore setting a precedent for them to do it again in ME4 with the Destroy ending. You cant import that ending into ME3. Therefore whatever happens after Shep dies in ME2 is unknown, because its not part of Shep's story. But it doesnt mean its uncanonical.
I remember one of the devs said pretty much this in an interview years ago. But taking your premise jadebaby, I still have my doubts the devs would want to canonise something so big as an ending choice, even though I'd be fine if they do take Destroy and retcon it a bit.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 7, 2021 22:20:30 GMT
You cant import that ending into ME3. Therefore whatever happens after Shep dies in ME2 is unknown, because its not part of Shep's story. But it doesnt mean its uncanonical. Then either there should be a ME3 without Shepard, to accommodate it, or making a sequel to any one of the ME3 endings, doesn't mean the others are uncanonical.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 10, 2021 19:31:06 GMT
Then why does the kid in the vent disappear with no footsteps? And what's with the eerie camera angle zooming back through the vent? Why does no one else acknowledge his existence? Why the dream sequences? How does the Catalyst know to even take that form without knowing what's inside your head? Why should there be footsteps? I'm assuming the vent went further back. Camera angle? Because the kid was there and Shep was looking for him. Dream sequence? Colossal guilt. Shep tried to save the kid. Was feeling a little better once the kid was on the shuttle until it was shot down by a Reaper. It's guilt. The Catalyst is best forgotten. Use JAM or MEHEM once they get remade for LE. What are the odds that the devs thought of IT? Pretty slim. IT has some good points but ultimately falls short for me.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 10, 2021 19:32:44 GMT
That's not how indoctrination works. The only entities totally under Reaper's control are the husks. Saren?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 10, 2021 19:39:24 GMT
I mean they should have gone with it. IT. I mean technology that indoctrinates. That's Alex Jones territory to begin with. Technically, the entire crew of the SR2 should have been indoctrinated due to EDI being made from Reaper Tech.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 10, 2021 20:13:19 GMT
I mean they should have gone with it. IT. I mean technology that indoctrinates. That's Alex Jones territory to begin with. Technically, the entire crew of the SR2 should have been indoctrinated due to EDI being made from Reaper Tech. If not indoctrinated but possible make it easier to indoctrinated
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Post by themikefest on Jul 10, 2021 20:52:09 GMT
I mean they should have gone with it. IT. I mean technology that indoctrinates. That's Alex Jones territory to begin with. Technically, the entire crew of the SR2 should have been indoctrinated due to EDI being made from Reaper Tech. Another reason why choosing red is the correct choice. excellent. The reapers are the ones that are indoctrinated. Just look at what happened in ME3, or rather didn't happen. They didn't take the Citadel at the beginning. The destroyer destroys the two shuttles but decides to let the SR2 fly away. The reaper on Tuchanka fires it's red beam of doom vertically instead of horizontally at Shepard The reaper on Rannoch did the same The reapers failed to destroy the crucible. They failed to turn off the beam in London preventing anyone from using it. Harbinger failing to destroy the SR2 during the what-the-crap evac scene and so on.
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Post by Greysen on Jul 26, 2021 21:46:32 GMT
That's not how indoctrination works. The only entities totally under Reaper's control are the husks. Saren? He was not under their control until after he killed himself. He was being strongly influenced by them, manipulated. He was indoctrinated and he still could decide his own fate. He just had to think he way out of the crazy thinking he was dealing with. Shepard can influence him more than the reapers by the end of the game. And indeed, the only ones totally controlled by the reapers were the reaper ground troops (banshee, cannibal, husk, brute...). That is because they were changed through some kind of synthesis like saren was at the end of ME1, but saren's conversion was not complete until he shot himself. Then what he became was more like a machine actually controlled by sovereign.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 26, 2021 22:27:55 GMT
Indoctrination is such a sack of cats for the narrative. It’s basically space cooties that necessitates certain characters to have oodles of plot armor, and its effectiveness varies wildly as the plot dictates.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 27, 2021 15:18:48 GMT
He was not under their control until after he killed himself. He was being strongly influenced by them, manipulated. He was indoctrinated and he still could decide his own fate. He just had to think he way out of the crazy thinking he was dealing with. Shepard can influence him more than the reapers by the end of the game. And indeed, the only ones totally controlled by the reapers were the reaper ground troops (banshee, cannibal, husk, brute...). That is because they were changed through some kind of synthesis like saren was at the end of ME1, but saren's conversion was not complete until he shot himself. Then what he became was more like a machine actually controlled by sovereign. Did Saren have a choice in doing the bidding of the Reapers? Maybe, but there was no indication that was true. Same with TIM, if we're being honest. Indoctrination is subtle. The person may not even know why. They hear voices and do its bidding. Saren thought he was trying to make himself useful to the Reapers. You think Sovereign didn't know what it was doing? Saren had the illusion of free will. The one and only time Saren was free of indoctrination is, if you play a certain way, you convince Saren to kill himself. One person resisted indoctrination: Shiala. Shame she wasn't made a squadmate given her powerful will - a will more powerful than Benezia's. Benezia was indoctrinated and only broke free as she was dying. How stupid would the Reapers have to be to have a full on puppet? That requires constant manipulation. No, they put the wheels in motion. The only free will they have is how they go about doing the bidding of the Reapers. Evidence: Indoctrination
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 27, 2021 17:10:58 GMT
He was not under their control until after he killed himself. He was being strongly influenced by them, manipulated. He was indoctrinated and he still could decide his own fate. He just had to think he way out of the crazy thinking he was dealing with. Shepard can influence him more than the reapers by the end of the game. And indeed, the only ones totally controlled by the reapers were the reaper ground troops (banshee, cannibal, husk, brute...). That is because they were changed through some kind of synthesis like saren was at the end of ME1, but saren's conversion was not complete until he shot himself. Then what he became was more like a machine actually controlled by sovereign. Did Saren have a choice in doing the bidding of the Reapers? Maybe, but there was no indication that was true. Same with TIM, if we're being honest. Indoctrination is subtle. The person may not even know why. They hear voices and do its bidding. Saren thought he was trying to make himself useful to the Reapers. You think Sovereign didn't know what it was doing? Saren had the illusion of free will. The one and only time Saren was free of indoctrination is, if you play a certain way, you convince Saren to kill himself. One person resisted indoctrination: Shiala. Shame she wasn't made a squadmate given her powerful will - a will more powerful than Benezia's. Benezia was indoctrinated and only broke free as she was dying. How stupid would the Reapers have to be to have a full on puppet? That requires constant manipulation. No, they put the wheels in motion. The only free will they have is how they go about doing the bidding of the Reapers. Evidence: Indoctrination The impression I got from Shiala's email was that her connection to the colonists through the Thorian spores is how she's able to resist the effects of Sovereign. If she was by herself on the Normandy, they'd have to just handwave that indoctrination away to reconcile it.
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Post by midnightwolf on Aug 3, 2021 1:05:12 GMT
I refuse to believe Shepard was at any point indoctrinated. It simply makes no sense. Harbinger, a Reaper with a seemingly personal obsession with Shepard, would simply force him to the Reapers side. That's not how indoctrination works. The only entities totally under Reaper's control are the husks. Before they reach that level, indoctrinated people are manipulated via their actions/beliefs by using subjective hallucinations (visual and auditive) and dreams. It's more like various stage/type of schizophrenia, instead of pure mind control. Shepard's hallucinations and dreams in ME3 fit with that. It is also supported by meeting TIM in the Citadel at the end, TIM had an implant that allowed him to control indoctrinated people, not every organics. VERY late reply here but: That's exactly how indoctrination works. Harbinger is a 37 million year old construct which can control the Collectors from dark space. The Illusive Man was first indoctrinated 10 years before the games via an artefact just after Humans surrendered to the Turian's, and constantly had the Reapers in his head. His indoctrination only got worse once they arrived in Sol. Whatever implant TIM had, came long after he was already under Reaper control.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 3, 2021 2:12:55 GMT
That's not how indoctrination works. The only entities totally under Reaper's control are the husks. Before they reach that level, indoctrinated people are manipulated via their actions/beliefs by using subjective hallucinations (visual and auditive) and dreams. It's more like various stage/type of schizophrenia, instead of pure mind control. Shepard's hallucinations and dreams in ME3 fit with that. It is also supported by meeting TIM in the Citadel at the end, TIM had an implant that allowed him to control indoctrinated people, not every organics. VERY late reply here but: That's exactly how indoctrination works. Harbinger is a 37 million year old construct which can control the Collectors from dark space. The Illusive Man was first indoctrinated 10 years before the games via an artefact just after Humans surrendered to the Turian's, and constantly had the Reapers in his head. His indoctrination only got worse once they arrived in Sol. Whatever implant TIM had, came long after he was already under Reaper control. I've also thought TIM had to have been indoctrinated prior to ME3. It had to have been in the works. Husks aren't indoctrinated. They're just mindless creatures that attack anything in sight that isn't a husk. Some say Shepard was similarly around Reaper artifacts but I disagree. The only time Shep was really around it was during The Arrival and it's possible Shep never went on that mission. Even so, it was for a relatively short period versus the crazies who were around it for months if not longer. I've seen plenty of stuff where IT sounds like it could make sense. It's been a long time since I went through it all. Videos, write-ups or whatever. I think in the end I decided that while it looked promising it just didn't fully hold up. And anyway, BW said they weren't smart enough to have come up with something like that. Case closed.
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Post by moorman56 on Aug 7, 2021 21:19:00 GMT
My theory was indoctrination was the ending the writers did for themselves but was too outrageous to do as the real ending so just snuck it in as subtext. The irony being the ending they chose infuriated so many that their secret in joke ending got figured out. They had their chances to incorporate it and have chosen not to. But yeah agree it is likely to get officially made impossible by any sequel
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 8, 2021 15:19:45 GMT
My theory was indoctrination was the ending the writers did for themselves but was too outrageous to do as the real ending so just snuck it in as subtext. The irony being the ending they chose infuriated so many that their secret in joke ending got figured out. They had their chances to incorporate it and have chosen not to. But yeah agree it is likely to get officially made impossible by any sequel I feel like actually having indoctrination work in gameplay/dialogue would have been really tricky, and I'm sure someone there played around with this idea, but ultimately just couldn't figure out a satisfactory way to get it to work. Like, imagine every option at some point actually leads to an unexpected line not reflective of the context, or actions you definitely didn't want to do, because Shepard's mind is no longer entirely theirs. I haven't really given it too much thought to even attempt brainstorming it, but it strikes me as being more trouble than it's worth at that point.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 10, 2021 18:33:02 GMT
My theory was indoctrination was the ending the writers did for themselves but was too outrageous to do as the real ending so just snuck it in as subtext. The irony being the ending they chose infuriated so many that their secret in joke ending got figured out. They had their chances to incorporate it and have chosen not to. But yeah agree it is likely to get officially made impossible by any sequel They've outright said they weren't smart enough to come up with an ending like that. But lets take your premise. The nightmares and the Starbrat are all part of indoctrination. Now we have Reapers invading space with nothing stopping them. All we've got is a Shepard who personally defeated indoctrination. The Reapers are still out there. Which means they continue to have overwhelming odds against a threat they can't defeat conventionally. That part was drilled in. The most likely outcome is that all present-day organic races who have developed space technology are wiped from existence. I guess of that's your thing than go for it because IT has zero evidence for what could have happened if Shepard resisted indoctrination. Believe what you want. Headcanon is a thing and I have my own for various things. Hell, I create entire stories to go along with my playthroughs. Each of them has their own way of working. Hmm...I wonder if I could do an IT run and how I could show it across all three games. It would probably start with EDI in ME2 since she was upgraded using Reaper tech. I'll have to think about it after I finish my current PT. Then I could maybe work out how it could make sense and give a post-IT ending. I'm big on what-ifs so I could do this.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 10, 2021 18:40:26 GMT
VERY late reply here but: That's exactly how indoctrination works. Harbinger is a 37 million year old construct which can control the Collectors from dark space. The Illusive Man was first indoctrinated 10 years before the games via an artefact just after Humans surrendered to the Turian's, and constantly had the Reapers in his head. His indoctrination only got worse once they arrived in Sol. Whatever implant TIM had, came long after he was already under Reaper control. I didn't read the comics but isn't it closer to 25 years prior? TIM was even using Reaper tech-based implants. If that didn't lead to indoctrination than I don't know what did. And for a guy who's supposed to be really smart why would he use tech that he knows indoctrinates people? Simple. He was already undergoing low levels of indoctrination at was being used as a tool and sleeper agent by by Sovereign. This sort of thing is consistent with what Vigil says in ME1. Regardless of 10 years or 25, TIM had to be indoctrinated and engaging in behavior Sovereign made him think was beneficial to humanity rather than, as Shepard said, stabbing it in the back.
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 10, 2021 18:54:29 GMT
VERY late reply here but: That's exactly how indoctrination works. Harbinger is a 37 million year old construct which can control the Collectors from dark space. The Illusive Man was first indoctrinated 10 years before the games via an artefact just after Humans surrendered to the Turian's, and constantly had the Reapers in his head. His indoctrination only got worse once they arrived in Sol. Whatever implant TIM had, came long after he was already under Reaper control. I didn't read the comics but isn't it closer to 25 years prior? TIM was even using Reaper tech-based implants. If that didn't lead to indoctrination than I don't know what did. And for a guy who's supposed to be really smart why would he use tech that he knows indoctrinates people? Simple. He was already undergoing low levels of indoctrination at was being used as a tool and sleeper agent by by Sovereign. This sort of thing is consistent with what Vigil says in ME1. Regardless of 10 years or 25, TIM had to be indoctrinated and engaging in behavior Sovereign made him think was beneficial to humanity rather than, as Shepard said, stabbing it in the back. I preferred Indoctrination when it was a simple enthrallment, like Saren, not this idiot ball 4D chess the reapers play against themselves. TIM being indoctrinated even a little prior to the events of Mass Effect 2 fucks the whole thing up. The Leviathan said that the reapers perfected this mind-controlling ability, but it sure didn't seem that way to me.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 10, 2021 22:29:51 GMT
I didn't read the comics but isn't it closer to 25 years prior? TIM was even using Reaper tech-based implants. If that didn't lead to indoctrination than I don't know what did. And for a guy who's supposed to be really smart why would he use tech that he knows indoctrinates people? Simple. He was already undergoing low levels of indoctrination at was being used as a tool and sleeper agent by by Sovereign. This sort of thing is consistent with what Vigil says in ME1. Regardless of 10 years or 25, TIM had to be indoctrinated and engaging in behavior Sovereign made him think was beneficial to humanity rather than, as Shepard said, stabbing it in the back. I preferred Indoctrination when it was a simple enthrallment, like Saren, not this idiot ball 4D chess the reapers play against themselves. TIM being indoctrinated even a little prior to the events of Mass Effect 2 fucks the whole thing up. The Leviathan said that the reapers perfected this mind-controlling ability, but it sure didn't seem that way to me. Except indoctrination never was what you think. Vigil explicitly stated that there were indoctrinated sleeper agents in the Prothean Empire. When the time was right they were activated and turned against the other Protheans. Everything we saw in ME1 was an act of desperation. Sovereign hadn't known that the keepers would no longer respond to its commands. It then had to find alternate means of taking over the Citadel and that was Saren and whoever else was exposed to it. The real issue came in The Arrival, where we learn there was an Alpha Relay all along, and then ME3, where we learn the Reapers didn't really need the relays at all. [Add] It means everything that happened with Saren in ME1 was utterly pointless.
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Post by q5tyhj on Aug 11, 2021 16:06:18 GMT
They've outright said they weren't smart enough to come up with an ending like that. I suspect they were being tongue-in-cheek there, since IT was always waaaaaaay dumber and more nonsensical than even the original non-EC ending (which is saying something), but they didn't want to come right out and call a spade "a spade". Not very diplomatic or PR-friendly to call your fans/customers idiots, even when they are, in fact, being idiotic.
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