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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jul 6, 2021 17:52:20 GMT
When it comes down to it I just philosophically say "fuck you" to the idea that life's fundamentally broken and a change must be forced upon it without anyone's consent, from the mind of the Reapers, who we have already proven to that organics and synthetics can co-exist.
But it ignores that completely because if it recognised that fact it must acknowledge that their own solution must have always made no sense.
Because it is egotistical.
And ignores the fact that organic life's just as capable of destroying itself irrevocably as anything.
It cites that synthetics will always turn against organics and uses their own enforced existence as proof of this eventuality, but in prior cycles it destroyed the already beneficially symbiotic Zha and Zha'til that most resembles Synthesis but a consentual one between organic and synthetic beings, that the Reapers then exploited to turn them into the most horrifying of servants so much so that the Protheans intentionally had to make their star go supernova to wipe them out.
In fact as we also know, the Quarians turn on the Geth, not the other way around so, the only recorded instance of synthetics turning on their organics actually ends up being the Catalyst turning on the Leviathans.
If you go by the history, either due to the Reapers themselves or the Leviathans' presence, Synthesis' got the potential to doom the milky way with no chance of recourse.
Control can lead to the whole thing repeating itself over.
Only Destroy and even Refusal will guarantee a future without the Catalyst's broken logic ruling over life in this galaxy.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jul 6, 2021 21:38:32 GMT
The writers, aka the Catalyst, decided to say "fuck you" to the player and gave us three horrible choices: You won, but we're forcing you to win our way. One does not simply slay the dragon and walk off into the sunset. But the morals in the game are bigger than just the ending. In ME1 it was more straight forward. When the story for ME1 was written heroes were still allowed. The same in ME2, but they threw Arrival into that one so you could learn what it felt like to be a monster. If you were a completionist, there is a side quest in ME1 you could stumble upon where you found a derelict ship that returned from Geth Space and the entire crew had been turned into husks. The nav logs indicated that this was a message from the Geth that this was what happens to organics who intrude on their territory. Tali also needed something from Geth that were not influenced by Sovereign. We learned that the Geth not influenced by Sovereign were planning an invasion from the Armstrong Cluster. That was her ME1 pilgrimage mission. This indicated to me that the direction of the writers was to have the Geth continue to be hostile to organics throughout the series regardless of the reapers. Legion or Not Legion showed us clips of the Geth side of the Morning War. What happened with the Quarians is that the Geth started behaving in ways they were not designed. They were considered to be smart appliances. They got too smart and refused shutdown commands and thus people were given instructions from the manufacturers to do hard shutdowns. The Geth rebelled. You have to remember that they were still considered to be appliances. And then the war started. I would imagine all synthetic rebellions throughout galactic history were like this. Even our own someday will be like this should we be idiotic enough to build sentient AI. So in ME3 the Quarians developed a weapon that allowed them to weaken the Geth enough to take reduce their number to the point where they could defeat them and take back their homeworld. The Quarian ships had about 80 years of life left in them before they needed to settle on a world anyway, and the Council wasn't having any of that. But plans went awry when the reapers invaded and took over the Geth. The idea of the Reapers was to keep both of them occupied in a stalemate until both could be harvested. Refusal was never an ending in the original game. It was added because a number of people complained that they didn't want to choose any of the three endings, so the writers gave them the "rocks fall, everyone dies" ending. Also there was the fact that many of us just stood there and shot the Catalyst for lols. Through the series starting in ME2 you begin making decisions that are morally reprehensible: - If you do Arrival, you kill 300,000. If you don't do Arrival you lose 50 War Assets because Hackett sends in the Marines to do the job. Shepard is arrested for working for Cerberus.
- If you do Legion's loyalty mission, you have the choice of killing a ton of Geth by blowing up their server, or killing a ton of Geth by rewriting them.
- If you sell Legion to Cerberus in ME2, you can't make peace between the Quarians and Geth in ME3, plus the Geth are stronger.
- If you or Ashley killed Wrex in ME1, you're headed down a dark path - save Maelon's data in ME2; fake the Genophage cure and send Mordin to work on the Crucible which dooms the Krogan after the war.
Thus Mac Walters gave us three endings that are morally reprehensible.
The only way out of what I call "Walters' Box" is to not have Legion in ME3. It's metagaming. That leaves you with the Geth VI or "Not Legion" in ME3 where you can't make peace and you choose to "let the Geth die" which is on Gerrel's hands, not yours. Your other choice is to "let the Quarians die" and you get to watch Tali commit suicide. Why the idea of uploading "Reaper Code" to the Geth is a good idea is beyond me. We're supposed to take Legion's word that Reaper Code is fine when we've seen Reaper tech indoctrinate everything it touches. But the feelz. I think this is probably the least monstrous play through of the game: - ME1 - Save the Rachni Queen
- ME1 - Get Wrex's family armor and resolve the situation on Virmire - you don't even need the "I win" dialogue because he's your friend.
- ME1 - Do the Armstrong Cluster and do Tali's pilgrimage
- ME1 - Save the Council
- ME1 - Let Balak live - you can leave him for the Alliance or let him escape outright. It doesn't matter. If you let him escape outright you save the hostages.
- ME2 - Save Maelon's data
- ME2 - Sell Legion to Cerberus - it was a non-functional machine at this point, and this gets you out of killing or rewriting millions of Geth but it will cost you war assets in ME3
- ME2 - Don't do Arrival
- ME3 - Cure the Genophage
- ME3 - Priority Rannoch - side with the Quarians because you can't make peace and Geth VI doesn't trust organics. The deaths of the Geth are on Gerrel's hands.
Now you can choose Destroy. EDI is the only one who gets left behind. You won't have enough war assets for the breath scene so you die. So don't waste your time scurrying about getting all of them thinking that you will. If you want to save the hanar and drell, go for it. You can still get the high EMS ending though. Back in the old days we used to be able to do multi-player to supplement war assets and still get the breath scene. Someone will mention the Virtual Aliens whom hardly anyone who plays the game without reading the lore knows about so they're mentioned. They'll perish too. That's it.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 6, 2021 22:34:25 GMT
When it comes down to it I just philosophically say "fuck you" to the idea that life's fundamentally broken and a change must be forced upon it without anyone's consent, from the mind of the Reapers, who we have already proven to that organics and synthetics can co-exist.I have a 3 part reply to this specific part.
The mountain of 6 trillion Quarian skulls and the floating wrecks of Geth servers with possibly hundred of millions of now dead Geth says differently.
The time span of the game is a year at best. I had a best friend in Kindergarten. I haven't seen them since the 2nd grade. I am in my 30's. Just because at the time they were my best friend doesn't mean they would be my best friend forever.
Politics alone disagrees with the idea that life isn't fundamentally broken. People can, have and will vote for someone who activly harms them in so many ways simply because they agree with other aspects. Some times even a single point. I know people who are against social programs because a single person might abuse the sytsem. They would allow 1,000 people to suffer just to spite a single person. And this same behavior is shown a thousand different ways in game. A Volus accuses a Quarian of stealing his credit chit just because they are a Quarian. When Shepard proves that it was just an accident the C-Sec threats to arrest the Quarian with vagrancy. Life is fundamentally broken in so many ways.
New life could eventually evovle to replace it. Not the case with synthetic life existing across the galaxy. Humanity exists because Reapers harvested the various races of the galaxy who either did settle or could have settle there. If the Brogorians who existed 600,000 years ago settled on Earth and developed it then it would ahve altered the course of evolution and quite possibly prevented the development of humanity. Or at least developing as we know it. Possibly going the dog and cat route of becoming pets.
The Metacon War already proved the point long before the Reapers arrived. It would take generations to integrate multiple species into a single stellar empire to the point it seemed that 50,000 years later there was only a single race active in the galaxy.
Were and when did the Catalyst state that only synthetics were the aggressor? You can rebel for many reasons. Good and bad. Smart and stupid. Moral and immoral. The only thing the Catalyst did say is when the dust clears it is the synthetics standing victorious alone at the end.
Reapers have altered history so you can not point to history as validation. Without the FTL and Mass Relays they left behind the Protheans wouldnt have been able to unite organic races under their banner to win the Metacon War. Without the FTL and Mass Relays the Quarians wouldn't have been able to escape Rannoch and they would have been wiped out to the last.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 7, 2021 0:17:02 GMT
The only way out of what I call "Walters' Box" is to not have Legion in ME3. It's metagaming. That leaves you with the Geth VI or "Not Legion" in ME3 where you can't make peace and you choose to "let the Geth die" which is on Gerrel's hands, not yours. Your other choice is to "let the Quarians die" and you get to watch Tali commit suicide. Why the idea of uploading "Reaper Code" to the Geth is a good idea is beyond me. We're supposed to take Legion's word that Reaper Code is fine when we've seen Reaper tech indoctrinate everything it touches. But the feelz. You actively prevented the geth from uploading the Reaper code. You can not claim that the Geth's destruction is on the hands of another when you directly effected it. You are basically trying to claim you didn't kill the person the bus driver did. All you did was push them out in front of the buss.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jul 7, 2021 0:32:54 GMT
I must agree to disagree on the basis of your premise no matter the rest of your articulation. Life's not fundamentally broken. And I will never believe that I will sooner authorize the death of all living things than capitulate.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 7, 2021 0:34:15 GMT
After the reapers have been destroyed, the galaxy won't give a crap about the geth going bye, bye because had the reapers not been destroyed the rest of the galaxy would have been harvested.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 7, 2021 1:13:14 GMT
I must agree to disagree on the basis of your premise no matter the rest of your articulation. Life's not fundamentally broken. And I will never believe that I will sooner authorize the death of all living things than capitulate. To quote George Carlin
"Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work."
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jul 7, 2021 1:18:11 GMT
"Human nature." Always improving by the exchange of ideas though. Never perfected. That's life.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jul 7, 2021 1:31:15 GMT
Well if you tell Gerrel to stand down first before telling Not Legion no a second time.
You also shut down one of the main Geth servers. The Quarians had done some serious damage to the partial Dyson Sphere (in bubble state) where the Geth had uploaded a lot of their runtimes. With the reaper dead the only that was operating at full capacity was Not Legion because it was designed with sufficient runtimes to operate as an individual unit. And it appears that the Geth in Space kind of shut down. That indicates that they lost intelligence probably to that of the later designed smart pre-sentient appliance.
You just finished doing this:
So by extension, at this point the Geth are just machines.
Their only hope was for you to allow Not Legion to kill them and upload the Reaper Code which would magically turn them into heuristic AI and no longer true Geth, and watch Not Geth become Geth Jesus, and become a monster by pushing the Quarians in front of the bus.
So for the true Geth, death by uploading the code? Or death by Gerrel?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 7, 2021 2:32:42 GMT
"Human nature." Always improving by the exchange of ideas though. Never perfected. That's life. And yet all those problems still exist. In the ME universe the technology should allow them a near utopian society and yet there is still bigotry, gluttony, torture, slavery, disease, murder and more. 5,000 odd years and we still haven't mastered not hating someone based on the color of their skin or what side of an imaginary line they were born on. And when we reached the stars all it did was shift the target from the color and what nation they were born in to what species and what planet they were born on.
To join the wider galaxy and find it full of multiple races doing the same thing. The same bigotry, gluttony, torture, slavery , disease, murder and more. Only their histories stretch back even further then humanity. Thousands of more years of recorded history and they are no better then humanity.
To look at all of this suffering and death and say that this is good. This is how it is supposed to be. Is the saddest thing ever. Because that is an individual who grew up in an abusive environment and has internalized it so much that any alternative is now a foreign concept.
If we are not broken if we are not flawed then death, rape, slavery, hording wealth and living a life of luxury while others scrap by on the edges of society and more is normal. This is how we are and how we will always be. There would only be a need to correct this behavior if we were flawed. Because a flaw means something is wrong and needs to be corrected.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jul 7, 2021 2:42:30 GMT
Science fiction always reflects the now, not the actual predictive hypothetical chartered progress of humanity into the future, even Star Wars a fantasy and Star Trek the optimistic space opera do this.
Because each race's reflective of aspects already present in us.
And do not go over the line by engaging in unwanted psychoanalysis on me.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 7, 2021 6:10:23 GMT
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 7, 2021 11:58:09 GMT
Science fiction always reflects the now, not the actual predictive hypothetical chartered progress of humanity into the future, even Star Wars a fantasy and Star Trek the optimistic space opera do this. Because each race's reflective of aspects already present in us. And do not go over the line by engaging in unwanted psychoanalysis on me.
Then the now has 5,000 years of recorded history were we still think the color of someone's skin or being born on the other side of town is a valid reason to dislike if not our right hate someone. 5,000 years of recorded history were some people have more money then they could spend in a life time while others are homeless and starving on the street. 5,000 years of recorded human history and our medical knowledge is at it's current peak yet people still die from preventable disease simply because they can't afford to get access to that medical care. Multi million dollar companies will move factories to poor nations not out of some charity to help them. But to exploit the benefits of almost 0 environmental and worker rights and regulations allowing them to make their product at a fraction of the cost it would in a nation with any sort of worker and environmental protections.
None of these issues are new. They have been repeated time and time again in various forms across all of history. Our technology has advanced to the point that I can now stand in the middle of a park and talk face to face with someone on the other side of the planet on a small bit of plastic and metal that fits in my hand. Yet we are still fundamentally the same cave people grunting gathered around a fire planning how to kill that other people from across the river because they look different.
How many more thousands of years will be needed before we master not being ass holes to each other based on superficial appearances?
Star Trek was optimistic when it ignored reality. ToS and most of TNG but with the death of Roddenberry DS9 and later series pulled the Star Trek series kicking and screaming back to reality. Religious suicide bombings, Federation Terrorist cells, Sisko willingly engaging in the assassination of a Romulan to trick them into joining the war against the Dominion. The entire concept of the Dominion. Popularity and enjoyment of them is irrelevant to the fact Roddenberry is turning in his grave so fast you could power a city due to what they did to the Star Trek series and the total destruction of his utopian future idea.
Star Wars literally starts out with a bunch of storm troopers killing and burning (possibly alive) Luke's aunt and uncle just because R2 and 3PO were traced to that house. It has them blow up an entire planet killing untold billions in an instant. The extended universe both pre and post Disney acquisition is full of conflicts and wars and deaths. The Mandalorian series on Disney + shows the origin of the MC being a Clone Wars era attack by the CIS had the droids slaughtering his village while non of them can or are really fighting back.
If Star Wars is a reflection of society as it is now then society as it is now is fucking terrible. If Star Trek is a reflection of society as it is now then society is a massive steaming pile of shit. Because even in a post scarcity world were replicators can produce every need and desire someone could have, that we are still a bunch of paranoid, militaristic, opportunistic, war mongers is depressing as fuck. Our every need and desire is open to us at the touch of a button. And yet we still hate and war and act like massive ass holes because at our core that is who and what we are.
I'm not psychoanalyzing you so much as I'm stating a fact. People who grow up in an abusive home will often continue the cycle of abuse. Because they have internalized it and to them this behavior is normal.
When you look at the vast infinite ocean of steaming and bubbling raw sewage with only a few small hammocks floating around in it that get you out of it for short periods of time, and you say that this is fine, this is normal. There is nothing wrong here I can't help but think you have internalized the idea that swimming in hot raw sewage is normal. Because I see it and it fills me with such horror and disgust my mind buckles under the sheer terror of what is happening that it leaves me unable to even consider the idea of hope that things will get better.
The Covid Pandemic hasn't helped. We have all the information we could need at the tip of our fingers and yet people still chose to either down play or pretend like Covid isn't real should annoy you. Their pointless and stupid deaths should depress you. The knowledge that their families are dealing with loss because Bob chose to be an idiot should should sadden you. The knowledge that this idiot and countless like him spread the virus to other people causing death or long term medical issues should enrage you.
All made worse by the fact none of this had to happen. We have all the information we need at our disposal and yet people choose to behave like this. This wasn't ignorance or lack of awareness. This was an active choice made by them and not only did they suffer but their families and an unknown amount of unaffiliated people also suffered because of their choice. 5,000+ years should be enough time to have developed past gross stupidity as a society. The bar is so low it has struck oil and we still can't clear it. We are fundamentally flawed beyond our ability to repair it. Because it would require admitting that we are flawed which we can't. We don't see it as a flaw we see it as normal.
Maybe that is why I like synthesis so much. The idea that someone or something will step in and stop the infinite feedback loop of self destruction and stupidity that we can't even understand exists beyond as some sub conscious concept. And all that energy that was previously wasted going in circles can now be used to go forward and actually advance and improve our selves.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 7, 2021 12:10:23 GMT
Well if you tell Gerrel to stand down first before telling Not Legion no a second time. You also shut down one of the main Geth servers. The Quarians had done some serious damage to the partial Dyson Sphere (in bubble state) where the Geth had uploaded a lot of their runtimes. With the reaper dead the only that was operating at full capacity was Not Legion because it was designed with sufficient runtimes to operate as an individual unit. And it appears that the Geth in Space kind of shut down. That indicates that they lost intelligence probably to that of the later designed smart pre-sentient appliance. You just finished doing this: So by extension, at this point the Geth are just machines. Their only hope was for you to allow Not Legion to kill them and upload the Reaper Code which would magically turn them into heuristic AI and no longer true Geth, and watch Not Geth become Geth Jesus, and become a monster by pushing the Quarians in front of the bus. So for the true Geth, death by uploading the code? Or death by Gerrel?
You still actively take part in trying to prevent the code from uploading. You still pushed the person out in front of the oncoming bus.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jul 7, 2021 13:01:39 GMT
Oh it is a fact yes?
Humanity will always be deeply flawed.
But we have come a long way in relatively not a lot of time and we will continue to improve that's simply the way it is but fiction can not predict that only non-fiction will obviously show the truth of the matter.
And I can empathize with your outrage to a degree.
And if I did not take a glass half full way of looking at us as a species that despair might swallow me whole.
But I will never be so arrogant as to think I know better than the natural occurrence of life itself, and I do not even believe in a deity to reinforce that, we simply do not know enough about the nature of existence to make the call that it must all be changed especially in such vague terms that Synthesis gives us.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Jul 7, 2021 15:26:46 GMT
Even with Legion present and being able to establish a peace, I don't see allowing the upload as best choice without meta-gaming. The Geth in ME3 are not the same Geth of ME1, ME2 and the novels written by ME1's lead writer. They were written in ME3 to be sympathetic to the player as victims, and vilify the Quarians to better fit the narrative ME3's writing team wanted to tell. Ignoring that, it is easy to reason that Legion was altered in the time the Reapers were using it as a transmitter. In ME1&2, and the novels the Geth are isolationist murder-bots, who kill any organic that ventures into the Perseus Veil, no questions asked. They even killed Quarians who attempted to negotiate a peace with them, something ME3 ignores and leads the player to believe the Geth were caring for Rannoch in the event that the Quarians would one day return when peace was established. In ME2 Legion talks about how the "true" Geth want to evolve without the influence of the Reapers, only to change its stance after being exposed to Reaper code in ME3. Legion/not-Legion gives a very one sided portrayal of the Morning War, and changing the video logs so that it is "easier" for Shepard to understand. Would have seeing the Quarians without their suits caused Shepard to have sympathy for current day Quarians, when Legion/not-Legion was regaling Shepard with the "true" history of the Geth's distress and the Morning War? First time through ME3, I honestly thought allowing Legion to upload the code would come back to bite Shepard. Sarcasm: I mean it isn't like Legion deceived Shepard twice during the Rannoch story arc.In regards to the ending I agree with FiendishlyInventive . I could list other arguments against control and synthesis, but those have been discussed previously numerous times over the years.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jul 7, 2021 19:38:39 GMT
You still actively take part in trying to prevent the code from uploading. You still pushed the person out in front of the oncoming bus.
Huh? How in the fuck is preventing the upload to make them fully sapient and independent killing them when they're just machines at this point that require that upload to become something more? It's like throwing a bunch of VIs under the bus at this point. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 8, 2021 11:03:23 GMT
You still actively take part in trying to prevent the code from uploading. You still pushed the person out in front of the oncoming bus.
Huh? How in the fuck is preventing the upload to make them fully sapient and independent killing them when they're just machines at this point that require that upload to become something more? It's like throwing a bunch of VIs under the bus at this point. We'll have to agree to disagree. They are still fully sapient and independent at this point. Simple VI wouldn't be able to ask metaphysical questions and even stray into religious worship. They would not be able to take stock of their own morality and react accordingly, even if it is ultimately a bad choice they made.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Jul 8, 2021 13:03:38 GMT
Huh? How in the fuck is preventing the upload to make them fully sapient and independent killing them when they're just machines at this point that require that upload to become something more? It's like throwing a bunch of VIs under the bus at this point. We'll have to agree to disagree. They are still fully sapient and independent at this point. Simple VI wouldn't be able to ask metaphysical questions and even stray into religious worship. They would not be able to take stock of their own morality and react accordingly, even if it is ultimately a bad choice they made. You are describing Legion/Not-Legion, which already has the Reaper upgrades. shotgunjulia is describing the remaining "unaltered" Geth the Quarians are blasting in space.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 8, 2021 13:11:25 GMT
Oh it is a fact yes? Humanity will always be deeply flawed. But we have come a long way in relatively not a lot of time and we will continue to improve that's simply the way it is but fiction can not predict that only non-fiction will obviously show the truth of the matter. And I can empathize with your outrage to a degree. And if I did not take a glass half full way of looking at us as a species that despair might swallow me whole. But I will never be so arrogant as to think I know better than the natural occurrence of life itself, and I do not even believe in a deity to reinforce that, we simply do not know enough about the nature of existence to make the call that it must all be changed especially in such vague terms that Synthesis gives us.
We have 5,000 years of known human history. Lets say each generation lives 80 years. That is 62.5 generations and we still haven't figured out that skin color and place of birth doesn't make someone greater or lesser.
How many more generations will it take for us as a species to understand this simple aspect?
The last 200 years of technological improvement is to be marveled at. Going from steam driven trains to space flight. Crudely (by modern standards) cutting people open and sewing them back up hoping they survive to robotic assisted surgery that are far more accurate and have less of an impact allowing people to recover much quicker. But from a social issue stand point all we have managed to do at best is throw a blanket over it and move overt problems (with some issues) from main stream to underground were it still continues to fester and grow.
John Oliver has a wonderful video about Tucker Carlson and how he parrots white supremacist talking points in ways that are less overt and more accepting to the public. And how literal white supremacists are taking note and altering their actions to make their racist agenda more palpable to the average person.
And this mentality continues into fictional worlds. Take the case of Kaiden and Ashley. Kaiden had to put up with a total ass hole Turian during his training as a biotic. He has every right to have developed some degree of prejudice against Turians because of the abuse he suffered at his instructor's hands. He didn't. Ashley however has never interacted with any non human species, has been kept in human space. And some of the first words out of her mouth about other races is how allying with them is bad because if things get really bad they will look out for their own first. Which is an argument that could be applied to literally every single alliance between any human nation for our entire history. Yet some how to her is only valid when talking about something that doesn't look human.
And when you get to the Citadel she utters her infamous and cringe inducing line "I can't tell the alien from the animals" which is filled with such a xenophobia and said in such a casual manner it is clear she has voiced similar opinions before. And before the Ashley stans try to jump on me to defend her. Yes over the course of the trilogy her opinions do change. But intentionally or unintentionally the writers and voice actor's performance was able to portray that rotten festering core of humanity. One that can be cover came by some but exists in all of us.
That same rotten core is shown with all the different races in so many different ways. From overt sentiments from Salarians and Turians. To more subtle with the Asari keeping a Prothean computer a secret so they can remain dominant and use their long lives and accumulated wisdom to help guide the shorter lived species. And the Asari are really great examples of this inherent flaw in life. Their goals are noble, their actions have been largely beneficial to the galaxy. But at the core their actions are still based around the idea that because they are not Asari it means they are flawed and need to be guided so they can be more like the Asari.
Evolution is genetic chance. If you are born with slightly elevated testosterone levels and that helps you survive better and have children and they are born with your elevated testosterone and they survive better and have kids of their own. The cycle repeats until the entire species has testosterone levels above what they were in the past. There is no thought or logic to it. In fact you could argue based on animal behavior that being a raging ass hole to anyone outside of your own family or group structure, even others of your same species seems to be the primary behavior that evolution supports. Animals will regularly kill the babies of rivals just so they can mate and produce young. They will attack and kill others of their own species outside of their group for resources or territory. They will steal from other animals and in turn have stuff stolen from them.
The natural occurrence of life it self only cares if you can out fight, out fuck and out smart everything around you to plant your flag on the corpses of those who failed. Compassion, generosity, empathy is reserved for your intimidate family or group and nothing more. If a grizzly bear sees a small cub alone by a stream it's first thought isn't that it lost it's mother and need to be found. It is that it is easy prey for a meal and goes in for the kill. If that mama grizzly sees another bear approaching her baby that wondered off her first thought isn't "oh that is nice he is watching him for me" no that first and only thought it to charge at that male bear screaming the bear equivalent of "you take another step towards my baby and I will rip out your throat and shit down the hole."
“Mother nature is a brutal bitch, red in tooth and claw, who destroys what she creates.”
― Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death
We do know about the nature of existence. What synthesis offers is close to a utopia future. However we have so internalized the shitty nature of reality that the idea of a utopia triggers the same reaction as uncanny valley in animation. We become wary and suspicious of it. We distrust it on the spot because we literally can't imagine a world like that.
This is also an idea repeated in the Matrix series. Were the machines tried to create a utopia at first but the human mind rejected it. Eventually creating the simulation of reals world modern day which they were able to accept. Humanity wasn't able to believe in utopia but could believe living in a festering sewage swamp.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 8, 2021 13:14:17 GMT
They are still fully sapient and independent at this point. Simple VI wouldn't be able to ask metaphysical questions and even stray into religious worship. They would not be able to take stock of their own morality and react accordingly, even if it is ultimately a bad choice they made. You are describing Legion/Not-Legion, which already has the Reaper upgrades. shotgunjulia is describing the remaining "unaltered" Geth the Quarians are blasting in space. The unaltered Geth asked a question about the nature of souls before the Morning War. The Heretics began worshiping Sovereign of their own free will to the disgust of the Reaper. The Geth in the wake of the Quarian attack panicked and made a deal with the devil in sheer panic of their own death at the hands of the Quarians.
Everything I said was about unaltered Geth.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Jul 8, 2021 13:20:36 GMT
You are describing Legion/Not-Legion, which already has the Reaper upgrades. shotgunjulia is describing the remaining "unaltered" Geth the Quarians are blasting in space. The unaltered Geth asked a question about the nature of souls before the Morning War. The Heretics began worshiping Sovereign of their own free will to the disgust of the Reaper. The Geth in the wake of the Quarian attack panicked and made a deal with the devil in sheer panic of their own death at the hands of the Quarians.
Everything I said was about unaltered Geth.
But ignoring the fact that at the time of the upload the Geth are no longer capable of that. Their unique intelligence so diminished that they are no longer capable of sapience. Legion mentions that the way the Geth gain intelligence and sapience is by networking together, alone and in small numbers they are a simple runtime or program. In their initial attack the Quarians wipe out a large number of Geth programs, lowering the Geth's intelligence to the point where the Geth fear losing sapience and turn to the Reapers. By the time Shepard and crew take out the Reaper and even more Geth, there are so few Geth remaining they don't have the intelligence to mount a defense. The Geth are at the point where they are just a collection of runtimes not an AI, spread out among ships and mobile platforms. Hence why Legion/Not-Legion is in a rush to upload the Reaper code. The Quarians have largely succeeded in defeating the Geth, the uniqueness that made them Geth has been destroyed. Allowing Legion/Not-Legion to upload the Reaper code isn't so much as saving the Geth as it is giving rise to a new form of sentient AI based on Reaper code.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 14:03:01 GMT
Control can lead to the whole thing repeating itself over. Control depends on what morality you gave Shepard and would only repeat itself if Shepard controls the Reapers towards the same ends as the Catalyst did. If Shepard believes something different than the Catalyst, the Catalyst's logic error won't repeat itself since Shepard is given control of the Reapers "as you see fit." The ending slides verify that the Shepard AI (regardless of being Paragon or Renegade) is still committed to not harvesting organics. Therefore, the Catalyst's "thing" won't be repeating itself anytime soon. The Shepard AI does not contain the same programming error as the Catalyst.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 8, 2021 23:18:27 GMT
The unaltered Geth asked a question about the nature of souls before the Morning War. The Heretics began worshiping Sovereign of their own free will to the disgust of the Reaper. The Geth in the wake of the Quarian attack panicked and made a deal with the devil in sheer panic of their own death at the hands of the Quarians.
Everything I said was about unaltered Geth.
But ignoring the fact that at the time of the upload the Geth are no longer capable of that. Their unique intelligence so diminished that they are no longer capable of sapience. Legion mentions that the way the Geth gain intelligence and sapience is by networking together, alone and in small numbers they are a simple runtime or program. In their initial attack the Quarians wipe out a large number of Geth programs, lowering the Geth's intelligence to the point where the Geth fear losing sapience and turn to the Reapers. By the time Shepard and crew take out the Reaper and even more Geth, there are so few Geth remaining they don't have the intelligence to mount a defense. The Geth are at the point where they are just a collection of runtimes not an AI, spread out among ships and mobile platforms. Hence why Legion/Not-Legion is in a rush to upload the Reaper code. The Quarians have largely succeeded in defeating the Geth, the uniqueness that made them Geth has been destroyed. Allowing Legion/Not-Legion to upload the Reaper code isn't so much as saving the Geth as it is giving rise to a new form of sentient AI based on Reaper code.
A single mobile platform contains a couple hundred Geth. Legion was specially made holding 10x the normal Geth. Around 11k Geth residing in that platform. Legion was capable of downloading an entire Geth server into several Prime bodies. The Geth had an entire Fleet still in operation that contained thousands of Geth per ship.
Were does Legion say they were worried about losing their sentience? When you find Legion on the dreadnought and Shepard asks how the Reapers got a hold of the Geth Legion will respond with
When you talk to Legion on the Normandy he talks about the choice to ally with the Reapers:
When you exit the Geth server you get this conversation
When you are back on the Normandy and Legion and Raan are back and forth before the attack on the Reaper base...
I'm not sure were you are getting this whole sentience things from. Every conversation with Legion points to the actions of the Geth being a self preservation reaction due to the Quarians kicking their metaphorical teeth in. Because they developed the equivalent of a flash bang that could be used against the Geth blinding them which allowed the Quarians to swoop in and take out ships. Even if you choose Quarians over Geth it still shows the Geth fighting back. They are not just standing around there like zombies to be mowed down. And again each ship would contain thousands of Geth.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jul 9, 2021 23:34:32 GMT
But ignoring the fact that at the time of the upload the Geth are no longer capable of that. Their unique intelligence so diminished that they are no longer capable of sapience. Legion mentions that the way the Geth gain intelligence and sapience is by networking together, alone and in small numbers they are a simple runtime or program. In their initial attack the Quarians wipe out a large number of Geth programs, lowering the Geth's intelligence to the point where the Geth fear losing sapience and turn to the Reapers. By the time Shepard and crew take out the Reaper and even more Geth, there are so few Geth remaining they don't have the intelligence to mount a defense. The Geth are at the point where they are just a collection of runtimes not an AI, spread out among ships and mobile platforms. Hence why Legion/Not-Legion is in a rush to upload the Reaper code. The Quarians have largely succeeded in defeating the Geth, the uniqueness that made them Geth has been destroyed. Allowing Legion/Not-Legion to upload the Reaper code isn't so much as saving the Geth as it is giving rise to a new form of sentient AI based on Reaper code.
A single mobile platform contains a couple hundred Geth. Legion was specially made holding 10x the normal Geth. Around 11k Geth residing in that platform. Legion was capable of downloading an entire Geth server into several Prime bodies. The Geth had an entire Fleet still in operation that contained thousands of Geth per ship.
Were does Legion say they were worried about losing their sentience? When you find Legion on the dreadnought and Shepard asks how the Reapers got a hold of the Geth Legion will respond with
When you talk to Legion on the Normandy he talks about the choice to ally with the Reapers:
When you exit the Geth server you get this conversation
When you are back on the Normandy and Legion and Raan are back and forth before the attack on the Reaper base...
I'm not sure were you are getting this whole sentience things from. Every conversation with Legion points to the actions of the Geth being a self preservation reaction due to the Quarians kicking their metaphorical teeth in. Because they developed the equivalent of a flash bang that could be used against the Geth blinding them which allowed the Quarians to swoop in and take out ships. Even if you choose Quarians over Geth it still shows the Geth fighting back. They are not just standing around there like zombies to be mowed down. And again each ship would contain thousands of Geth.
There were 1183 programs residing in Legion's platform. And he downloaded an entire Geth Server into several Geth Prime which likely didn't have the hardware to hold all the program. But whatever. It'll be fine. There was so much handwavium in this storyline so whatever. Like I've said before. Legion showed you their side of the Morning War, and Shepard bought it. Clearly the writers were pushing the player down the line of saving the Geth over the Quarians. Do I smell shite? Geth reached sentience via network. They were a networked AI. Without the network they were not sentient. The number of programs stored on the individual platforms was not sufficient to reach sentience and sapience. Perhaps. But whatever. This is head canon territory because we have to go by except the cut scene they showed us which indicated that the geth in space went dumb as rocks when you killed that reaper. At this point you have the choice of 1) letting the Geth die, which have done nothing but shoot at you for over two games. Geth not controlled by Saren had planned an invasion from the Armstrong Cluster. You knew this. They were a danger to organics. But whatever. Players forgot all about that. It was over 5 years ago in real time, and who cares about lore anyway? Just put a digital gun in the hands and give them something to shoot at. Or 2) you could upload the code. You had nothing other than Legion's word that uploading the Reaper Code would result in a positive outcome. If you didn't have the "I win" dialogue someone would get thrown under the bus. You would have to choose. If you chose the machines, you need your moral compass examined. "Or... you can allow Legion to make magic motions with his hands and cast himself off a cliff sending his bits into space, creating an entirely new True AI Synthetic." "I... don't know" "Why not? You're partly synthetic yourself. Can you imagine your life without them?" I finally get it. This was the foreshadowing of the Synthesis Ending. "I must go to them." Which is another thing. How does Legion magically upload the code? Does it have some high powered QEC transmitter that can send out the code to all Geth? Sorry, I forgot, he became RoboJesus. Do you believe in magic? And here we've gone from a short discussion on the ending morality to debating the Quarians and Geth... Why? Because the ending morality revolves around this single horribly written plot point.
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