shotgunjulia
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Post by shotgunjulia on Sept 17, 2021 20:28:48 GMT
There were multiple writing teams that didn't interact with each other to cross the "i's" and dot the "t's". This was just an example of one of them. It was a side quest after all and probably not thought to be important enough to warrant attention. Tali's pilgrimage required that she obtain something that was from geth not controlled by Sovereign. That meant Geth that were not Heretics. However, the Armstrong Cluster Geth turned out to be Heretics. Heretics were controlled by Sovereign. But wait, that sample was accepted by Shepard and Tali as from Geth not controlled by Sovereign even though they knew it was from Geth controlled by Sovereign. There are examples of writing in this series that are like this: Actually, by ME1 there wasn't any evidence that there existed a schism in the Geth and Tali was seeking something big to hand for her Pilgrimage because she is an Admiral daughter and Geth behavioural data is gold. ME2 kind of rewrote the Geth. lol.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 17, 2021 20:58:16 GMT
ME2 kind of rewrote the Geth. lol. ME2 also rewrote Cerberus. Names aside, the writers of ME2 were kind of like "fuck it" on several things regarding continuity. Vanguards did get an awesome upgrade though.
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Post by lordmoral on Sept 18, 2021 0:52:35 GMT
ME2 kind of rewrote the Geth. lol. ME2 also rewrote Cerberus. Names aside, the writers of ME2 were kind of like "fuck it" on several things regarding continuity. Vanguards did get an awesome upgrade though. And when ME3 came the central plotline suffered.
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AngryFrozenWater
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Sept 18, 2021 13:32:15 GMT
Apart from ME3's ending, my main problem was with ME2, in which I was forced to join TIM, who was portrayed as a ME1 supremacy villain. The whole Collector thingy didn't advance the story. Nothing was done in ME2, except for the pointless suicide mission.
In ME1 there was a mystery to discover. To me, that made the story interesting. There was none of that in ME2.
In ME3 the story picks up with getting ready for the final, but we already knew that conventional war wouldn't be the answer. Although Leviathan puts the ending somewhat in perspective, the ending was written by an amateur, who forgot what ME was about.
To get back on topic: In ME3 the ending was a moral decision. However, for me there was no real choice, because a galaxy without the reapers was the only viable solution. Controlling or joining a race who committed cyclical genocide as an eugenics experiment is disturbing.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 18, 2021 16:40:39 GMT
Apart from ME3's ending, my main problem was with ME2, in which I was forced to join TIM, who was portrayed as a ME1 supremacy villain. The whole Collector thingy didn't advance the story. Nothing was done in ME2, except for the pointless suicide mission. It would have been better placed as the first game. Then we've got the buildup and discover that the Collectors were nothing more than minions of a true, darker, more powerful threat. To get back on topic: In ME3 the ending was a moral decision. However, for me there was no real choice, because a galaxy without the reapers was the only viable solution. Controlling or joining a race who committed cyclical genocide as an eugenics experiment is disturbing.Exactly. It's astounding that people give this one a pass. Incomprehensible. I think if we saw a genocide on Earth where 99% of the population was killed we would never ever be able to forgive them. Even if it meant others had to die to make it happen.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 18, 2021 17:41:44 GMT
Apart from ME3's ending, my main problem was with ME2, in which I was forced to join TIM, who was portrayed as a ME1 supremacy villain. The whole Collector thingy didn't advance the story. Nothing was done in ME2, except for the pointless suicide mission. It would have been better placed as the first game. Then we've got the buildup and discover that the Collectors were nothing more than minions of a true, darker, more powerful threat. Even though I've said if a remake were to happen, I would stick with the order the games were made. But as time passes by, I'm leaning more and more to having ME2 be the first game. Here's one way that could happen
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 18, 2021 18:25:08 GMT
It would have been better placed as the first game. Then we've got the buildup and discover that the Collectors were nothing more than minions of a true, darker, more powerful threat. Even though I've said if a remake were to happen, I would stick with the order the games were made. But as time passes by, I'm leaning more and more to having ME2 be the first game. Here's one way that could happen You are actually the person who put the idea in my head, even if unintentionally. You referred to ME3 as ME1, part 2. It highlighted that ME2 was a detour. Then when you look at the threat levels presented, and what we uncover in ME2, it all makes sense.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 18, 2021 18:40:38 GMT
i have this vague memory within the codex for Machine cults
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 18, 2021 20:05:40 GMT
The writers, aka the Catalyst, decided to say "fuck you" to the player and gave us three horrible choices: You won, but we're forcing you to win our way. One does not simply slay the dragon and walk off into the sunset. But the morals in the game are bigger than just the ending. In ME1 it was more straight forward. When the story for ME1 was written heroes were still allowed. The same in ME2, but they threw Arrival into that one so you could learn what it felt like to be a monster. If you were a completionist, there is a side quest in ME1 you could stumble upon where you found a derelict ship that returned from Geth Space and the entire crew had been turned into husks. The nav logs indicated that this was a message from the Geth that this was what happens to organics who intrude on their territory. Tali also needed something from Geth that were not influenced by Sovereign. We learned that the Geth not influenced by Sovereign were planning an invasion from the Armstrong Cluster. That was her ME1 pilgrimage mission. This indicated to me that the direction of the writers was to have the Geth continue to be hostile to organics throughout the series regardless of the reapers. Legion or Not Legion showed us clips of the Geth side of the Morning War. What happened with the Quarians is that the Geth started behaving in ways they were not designed. They were considered to be smart appliances. They got too smart and refused shutdown commands and thus people were given instructions from the manufacturers to do hard shutdowns. The Geth rebelled. You have to remember that they were still considered to be appliances. And then the war started. I would imagine all synthetic rebellions throughout galactic history were like this. Even our own someday will be like this should we be idiotic enough to build sentient AI. So in ME3 the Quarians developed a weapon that allowed them to weaken the Geth enough to take reduce their number to the point where they could defeat them and take back their homeworld. The Quarian ships had about 80 years of life left in them before they needed to settle on a world anyway, and the Council wasn't having any of that. But plans went awry when the reapers invaded and took over the Geth. The idea of the Reapers was to keep both of them occupied in a stalemate until both could be harvested. Refusal was never an ending in the original game. It was added because a number of people complained that they didn't want to choose any of the three endings, so the writers gave them the "rocks fall, everyone dies" ending. Also there was the fact that many of us just stood there and shot the Catalyst for lols. Through the series starting in ME2 you begin making decisions that are morally reprehensible: - If you do Arrival, you kill 300,000. If you don't do Arrival you lose 50 War Assets because Hackett sends in the Marines to do the job. Shepard is arrested for working for Cerberus.
- If you do Legion's loyalty mission, you have the choice of killing a ton of Geth by blowing up their server, or killing a ton of Geth by rewriting them.
- If you sell Legion to Cerberus in ME2, you can't make peace between the Quarians and Geth in ME3, plus the Geth are stronger.
- If you or Ashley killed Wrex in ME1, you're headed down a dark path - save Maelon's data in ME2; fake the Genophage cure and send Mordin to work on the Crucible which dooms the Krogan after the war.
Thus Mac Walters gave us three endings that are morally reprehensible.
The only way out of what I call "Walters' Box" is to not have Legion in ME3. It's metagaming. That leaves you with the Geth VI or "Not Legion" in ME3 where you can't make peace and you choose to "let the Geth die" which is on Gerrel's hands, not yours. Your other choice is to "let the Quarians die" and you get to watch Tali commit suicide. Why the idea of uploading "Reaper Code" to the Geth is a good idea is beyond me. We're supposed to take Legion's word that Reaper Code is fine when we've seen Reaper tech indoctrinate everything it touches. But the feelz. I think this is probably the least monstrous play through of the game: - ME1 - Save the Rachni Queen
- ME1 - Get Wrex's family armor and resolve the situation on Virmire - you don't even need the "I win" dialogue because he's your friend.
- ME1 - Do the Armstrong Cluster and do Tali's pilgrimage
- ME1 - Save the Council
- ME1 - Let Balak live - you can leave him for the Alliance or let him escape outright. It doesn't matter. If you let him escape outright you save the hostages.
- ME2 - Save Maelon's data
- ME2 - Sell Legion to Cerberus - it was a non-functional machine at this point, and this gets you out of killing or rewriting millions of Geth but it will cost you war assets in ME3
- ME2 - Don't do Arrival
- ME3 - Cure the Genophage
- ME3 - Priority Rannoch - side with the Quarians because you can't make peace and Geth VI doesn't trust organics. The deaths of the Geth are on Gerrel's hands.
Now you can choose Destroy. EDI is the only one who gets left behind. You won't have enough war assets for the breath scene so you die. So don't waste your time scurrying about getting all of them thinking that you will. If you want to save the hanar and drell, go for it. You can still get the high EMS ending though. Back in the old days we used to be able to do multi-player to supplement war assets and still get the breath scene. Someone will mention the Virtual Aliens whom hardly anyone who plays the game without reading the lore knows about so they're mentioned. They'll perish too. That's it.
I agree with everything you wrote EXCEPT letting Balek live. If you let him go, he goes on to Murder over a hundred Alliance personal by shutting off life support in the hospital, among other things.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 19, 2021 16:07:23 GMT
i have this vague memory within the codex for Machine cults I think it was actually a UNC mission in ME1. Shepard encountered members of a machine cult who had been transformed into husks.
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Post by shotgunjulia on Sept 19, 2021 20:32:49 GMT
i have this vague memory within the codex for Machine cults I think it was actually a UNC mission in ME1. Shepard encountered members of a machine cult who had been transformed into husks. I particularly like the commentary around 4:45 - 5:07.
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AngryFrozenWater
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Sept 20, 2021 18:13:15 GMT
In my opinion, although ME1 didn't age very well from a technical point of view, I think it still has the best story. So, I like to keep ME1 as the first game.
We have played the games a lot (at least I did), so many people replay the games for the best outcome. However, I am not a fan of meta-gaming.
I make the decisions based on the order of the events presented in the games. That leads me to moral problems in the ending. The most prominent one is the fate of the non-heretic geth. I favor peace between the quarians and the geth, but the geth won't survive the destroy ending. I rationalize that the geth have only one mind, so (in the geth's case) only one life will be lost. And of course there is EDI.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2021 20:46:34 GMT
In my opinion, although ME1 didn't age very well from a technical point of view, I think it still has the best story. So, I like to keep ME1 as the first game. We have played the games a lot (at least I did), so many people replay the games for the best outcome. However, I am not a fan of meta-gaming. I make the decisions based on the order of the events presented in the games. That leads me to moral problems in the ending. The most prominent one is the fate of the non-heretic geth. I favor peace between the quarians and the geth, but the geth won't survive the destroy ending. I rationalize that the geth have only one mind, so (in the geth's case) only one life will be lost. And of course there is EDI. Except it is established they don’t have one mind. Especially after the upgrades. You’re just lying to yourself. And ooh, murder is so much better than mass murder apparently.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2021 20:49:42 GMT
Apart from ME3's ending, my main problem was with ME2, in which I was forced to join TIM, who was portrayed as a ME1 supremacy villain. The whole Collector thingy didn't advance the story. Nothing was done in ME2, except for the pointless suicide mission. It would have been better placed as the first game. Then we've got the buildup and discover that the Collectors were nothing more than minions of a true, darker, more powerful threat. To get back on topic: In ME3 the ending was a moral decision. However, for me there was no real choice, because a galaxy without the reapers was the only viable solution. Controlling or joining a race who committed cyclical genocide as an eugenics experiment is disturbing.Exactly. It's astounding that people give this one a pass. Incomprehensible. I think if we saw a genocide on Earth where 99% of the population was killed we would never ever be able to forgive them. Even if it meant others had to die to make it happen. There’s a difference between forgiving and committing a genocide on innocents in order to kill them. You say that the Reapers actions are unforgivable, and yet everyone who chooses Destroy applies the exact same logic they did. And yet like them, you see when you do it it’s fine. You become more like the Reapers than Control or Synthesis do.
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Sept 22, 2021 23:33:50 GMT
There’s a difference between forgiving and committing a genocide on innocents in order to kill them. You say that the Reapers actions are unforgivable, and yet everyone who chooses Destroy applies the exact same logic they did. And yet like them, you see when you do it it’s fine. You become more like the Reapers than Control or Synthesis do. Agreed. I said it was a rationalization. Many players have asked for a fourth option: To defeat the intelligence in one way or another. However, Bioware has chosen to add that option, only to make the cycles continue. That makes all four options horrible.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 3, 2021 1:51:29 GMT
There’s a difference between forgiving and committing a genocide on innocents in order to kill them. You say that the Reapers actions are unforgivable, and yet everyone who chooses Destroy applies the exact same logic they did. And yet like them, you see when you do it it’s fine. You become more like the Reapers than Control or Synthesis do. Agreed. I said it was a rationalization. Many players have asked for a fourth option: To defeat the intelligence in one way or another. However, Bioware has chosen to add that option, only to make the cycles continue. That makes all four options horrible. My fourth option was a mod. Without that mod the geth are toast.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Oct 3, 2021 2:15:11 GMT
If Synthesis really does make it so that the apparent organic and inorganic lifeform conflict finally comes to a conclusion by fundamentally changing the nature of life itself, then I see it as either the Geth and EDI are toast, or everyone's toast including them anyway.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 3, 2021 2:29:23 GMT
If Synthesis really does make it so that the apparent organic and inorganic lifeform conflict finally comes to a conclusion by fundamentally changing the nature of life itself, then I see it as either the Geth and EDI are toast, or everyone's toast including them anyway. The conclusion is flawed anyway. "Final end of evolution" or however they said it. Ridiculous. Evolution isn't a goal or destination. It's all based on environmental pressures. It's evolve or die. If we're not evolving...well, the Catalyst said it and I'm sure after a billion years it understands evolution.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Oct 3, 2021 4:12:50 GMT
It is, you're essentially imposing a change on all life, just because of the Leviathans flawed dictator way of looking at things as the Catalyst's essentially a construct created with their goals in mind.
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Oct 8, 2021 20:06:08 GMT
It is, you're essentially imposing a change on all life, just because of the Leviathans flawed dictator way of looking at things as the Catalyst's essentially a construct created with their goals in mind. Agreed. The Leviathans had one goal in mind: "Tribute does not flow from a dead race". The Intelligence had a similar goal. It made sure that only those races, who had something to contribute, were harvested. Something to do with the knowledge of the species to be unified with the reapers. So promising races were elevated. It is much like the cyclical genocide was an eugenics experiment.
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Oct 8, 2021 20:19:26 GMT
This brings back memories. If you are interested in a (large) piece I wrote many moons ago then you can read what I wrote about the topic, which is now archived on Fextralife. It is called " Tribute does not flow from a dead race". If the mods don't like this link they can remove this post. Sorry.
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October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 8, 2021 21:10:28 GMT
There are so many things wrong with the idea that it is even a moral dilemma. It is a logical dilemma. The Reapers will kill people. They will kill any and all people. It is in their programming, it is inevitable. They will not discriminate, they will not pause. What happens with the implications of the Synthesis ending. The moment anyone that was not present to experience Synthesis, is not a Reaper. Anyone that's not a Reaper is to be eradicated. We've changed nothing in their programming, so that means anyone outside of the Milky Way is a threat and, if we're to take the Initiative as an example, contact with civilizations from other galaxies, is something that will come sooner, rather than later. Meaning that every other sentient organism in the universe, wherever that may be, is an enemy for the Reapers and they will try to eradicate it, once discovered. Whether that is Andromeda, the Sombrero galaxy, or Canis Major. Doesn't really matter. In the end, the Milky Way is now the villains.
What about Control. The same thing as the original programming of the Catalyst. The AI produced will keep working to its programming, trying to find solutions to the same problem as before, asking the same questions, going down the path to the same answers, eventually viewing the Cycle as the best solution to the same problem again, eventually leaving you with the same end option; destroy the Reapers. As you set out to do in the first place. The "Shepard morality app", even depending on the nature of Shepard's morality altogether, will either change nothing, or make for an even more aggressive eradicator of all organic life.
What about Refuse. Congratulations, you played yourself. The cycle continues, infinite more lives will be harvested, for however long, until someone shows up and finally puts a boot down on the Reapers.
What about Destroy. The lives lost, have been lost. What Synthetics get damaged can get a system restore to a pre-Reaper status, the only correct state for them. With the only possible casualty being EDI.
Even then, you have to take the Catalyst's word as a given, that the problem it had to solve, was an inevitability and eradication of organics by synthetics is unavoidable, when the only case in favour of that, was the misstreatment of organics by the Leviathans, during their reign of the Milky Way and their subsequent fuckup of failing to handle that problem, then creating an AI that failed at handling that problem and making it an even greater problem. With the only thing that you can take for granted out of that, is that the Leviathans became incredibly incompetent.
Whether conflict is an inevitability altogether, that is another question and, as exhibited, by the Krogan and the milky Way races, the Rachni and the Milky Way races, the Humans and the Turians, the Humans and the Batarians, the Quarians and the Geth is that at some point, some factions will go into conflict with other factions. And that is true. At some point one civilization will go to war with a neighbouring civilization. If your wish is to eradicate the potential of conflict forever, the only solution to that is to prevent the big bang from ever occurring, or collapsing the universe and all that inhabit it, because the only way to prevent conflict, until we all reach that pinnacle of evolution that move beyond that, through greater understanding and knowledge, is to prevent all of existence interacting with itself.
Some civilizations will fail, some will collapse and their people will become extinct. That is a fact, regardless of what the Synthetic vs Organic non-dilemma dictates. Therefore, in an infinite universe, of infinite civilizations, this is not something that should concern you, or anyone. It is impossible for everyone to die, it is impossible for everyone to survive. This conflict is forced upon us from an AI that basically broke itself, through its bad programming and the failures of its own creators from installing failsafes and limiting its range of "solutions". And even then, if you take the Destroy option as a solution, it is a sign that organics can and, eventually, will prevail over synthetics. Synthetics losing to organics is an inevitability, just as much as the opposite. At some point, both sides will realize that co-existence is the only solution. The Reapers are just dumb.
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AngryFrozenWater
N5
Sir Nose D'VoidOfFunk
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 3,159 Likes: 9,167
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Sir Nose D'VoidOfFunk
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Sept 26, 2021 14:40:11 GMT
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AngryFrozenWater
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August 2016
angryfrozenwater
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Oct 8, 2021 21:23:51 GMT
The Reapers will kill people. They will kill any and all people. It is in their programming, it is inevitable. They will not discriminate, they will not pause. I disagree about the cause being their "programming". The Intelligence and the reapers are one. They are AI. The Intelligence was ordered to find a solution for the leviathan's problem of "tribute does not flow from a dead race". After the Intelligence studied the problem, it created a force to harvest the leviathans and thus the first reaper was created: It was known as "Harbinger". That is what can be learned from the Leviathan DLC. It shows that the programming argument is nonsense, because the AI made the cyclical genocide solution all on its own.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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SirSourpuss
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Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 8, 2021 21:25:07 GMT
Yes, and I address that later in the post.
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AngryFrozenWater
N5
Sir Nose D'VoidOfFunk
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 3,159 Likes: 9,167
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Sir Nose D'VoidOfFunk
1353
0
Sept 26, 2021 14:40:11 GMT
9,167
AngryFrozenWater
3,159
August 2016
angryfrozenwater
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Oct 8, 2021 21:29:50 GMT
Yes, and I address that later in the post. You keep calling it programming and later on "bad programming". I would call it a solution found by the AI, using it's own free will.
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