My view on the ending morality

10 geth networked are shown to be close to a fully realized AI. So what? They're still networked, each unit still providing a unique perspective, and not a true AI. Separate them enough and they're no longer sentient.

I think where you and I differ is perspective. If it is Geth VI, you have to choose sides. You do not have the "I win" dialogue.

One could argue that the Quarians were in a fight for their survival. The vast bulk of their ships were 300 years old or older. They needed a planet on which to settle and soon. The Council was still punishing them for creating the Geth 300 years earlier. The Quarians that created them are long dead. Quarians have similar lifespans to modern humans. So we're looking at 15 generations past. And the Council still wouldn't allow them to colonize a world. So they decided to retake their homeworld. Things were going fine and then the reapers invaded.

So they're in a fight with the murderbots that slaughtered their ancestors. And now a reaper is keeping the war in a stalemate.

Again I'm going to say this: the last thing you saw of the geth in space was a short cutscene where the geth fleet goes as dumb as rocks in space. That's what you, as the player has to go by. These geth were exhibiting no signs of intelligence. It's like they've been shut down. They're just machines. That was when you shut down the server. But then the reaper took control. And when you killed the reaper they stopped firing again.

"We could upload them to all geth without sacrificing their independence." But I thought they were dependent upon each other. That Legion was the only one that operated independently? Okay, bad writing department strikes.

For them to be anything more than just machines, Legion has to reprogram them with the reaper code... not only that, but Legion has to "go to them." In other words, Legion has to copy his code to every one of them in addition to the reaper code.

As Shepard, you're pushing no one out in front of the bus. There are no renegade points accrued for that decision. It's just a "lower right" decision because that's the slot in which the writers chose to put it. "Upload the code" (UR); "We're letting the geth die."(LR) and with the "I win" if you don't choose the "I win" - (UR) Allow the upload; (LR) Stop Legion. You don't get paragon points for uploading the code either. You only get paragon/renegade points if you use the "I win" dialog. But if you didn't get that, no reward or penalty.

I think you're just not allowing something to happen if you don't allow the upload. You're not pushing anyone in front of the bus. If you have the Geth VI and allow the upload, you are pushing the Quarians in front of the bus because you know their fleet is already attacking. Calling off an attack isn't that simple when you're talking about an entire fleet. It isn't instantaneous. And what guarantee is there that the other side isn't going to counterattack? But this is a video game so it happens instantly without incident.

And why it's shit writing...

Tali would have stabbed Legion in the back, and Raan would have blown away Legion before allowing it to upload that code.... Shepard or no Shepard. I believe they would have protected their own people first before begging Shepard, especially Raan, even if it meant Shepard could shoot them afterward.

What "your Shepard" would have done after that is irrelevant.

In this situation, with Shepard having allowed the code upload there would have to be some serious ass kissing by Shepard afterward, but that wouldn't be too heroic, would it? Players would have hated it. In a TV series however.

And now you've brought up Alzheimer's which you probably know nothing about. My sister in law died from it. You don't want to go there. So we'll disregard that part.

But you're deflecting into organic brain cells and how they work trying to stretch that into the Geth and how the Geth work. Are we stretching things or what? By that argument one could argue that destroying individual geth units is just destroying a machine like a super smartphone, reducing the whole. It's not really killing anything. So if you just reduce a lot of them, you'll eventually get to the point where the Geth could be brought under control again like Xen wanted, right? Foreshadowing the control ending. That didn't exist in the game because the Geth could get hacked again. But Gerrel wanted to go all the way and rid the galaxy of them once and for all, foreshadowing the destroy ending. Whereas Legion wanted to upload the code which required that it sacrifice itself and send bits and pieces of itself to all Geth creating a new kind of Geth, foreshadowing the synthesis ending. It was that shallow.

Bioware writers weren't clever enough to make anything deeper out of it. Endings must be foreshadowed.

The "I win" dialogue makes it so easy for people. Let's assume that either Tali or Legion died, or Tali got exiled in ME2. Now there is no "I win" dialogue available. You have to choose. The Geth are useless until Legion gives them that upgrade. They are in no way equal to the Quarians at this point. Do you send what are now essentially VI machines to the scrap heap, or do you sentence millions of intelligent organic beings to death. There is no gray area here. Choose.

"Do we deserve death?" - Geth programs, synthetics are not bound by time. Organic lives are measured in decades. Geth wiped out billions... men, women, children... there was no offer of peace extended. Legion said that they didn't pursue the quarians because they couldn't reach consensus on the ramifications of completing the genocide of their creators, a condition that existed through ME3. This means a portion of the geth wanted to finish the genocide, and a portion were like "they're no longer a threat to us." We have no idea of the proportions. It could be billions to 1. It could be 50-50. Consensus is not a democracy. It requires a unanimous agreement as indicated in ME2 when Legion had a majority in favor of doing one thing to the heretics yet said there was no consensus. 

The morality of the ending boils down to this one single mission. 

You should drop this conversation. It's only going to go downhill from here. I promise.

Sincerely thank you all for such passionate discussion.

I wouldn't waste the effort. Lock the thread and throw it out the airlock.

You know how these go. Honestly, I wish you'd locked the thread where I allowed myself to go down a really dark path justifying the worst of RL to explain why letting the geth die was okay. I hate to see that happen with anyone else. I borderline (not really, but somewhat) think discussion of Synthesis endings should be locked as soon as the first personal attack happens. Synthesis is the worst topic of discussion on these boards.

It only becomes bad when those opposed to it(or anything other than the pro-genocide ending) enter the discussion.
When just Synthesis and Control people, they're very civil. 

I think the downward trend has restarted already. Nice try, though.

Thereby proving his point. You are incapable of being civil.

I just finished last night. 

1) You just argued with The Illusive Man that one man shouldn't have all that power. If you choose control you go against the arguments you used with The Illusive Man. You become the intelligence. It doesn't quite work out the way The Illusive Man said it would. So this is a non-starter. 

2) The Intelligence admits that synthesis has been tried before but that it didn't work because it is not something that can be forced. It tries to convince you that you are not forcing it on the galaxy, but you are. By admitting that, it also admits that this is not the first time the Crucible has been attached to the Citadel. The Intelligence I believe is capable of lies of omission much like EDI. You may have been the first organic to make it that far... on your own power... but you were not the first organic to be there. Given that synthesis didn't work the last time they tried it, what makes anyone think it would work this time just because the intelligence said so? Does choosing synthesis get rid of the intelligence? Or does it stay around post synthesis just in case it doesn't work? And given that the Reapers themselves are supposed to have the collective memories of the organic species they harvest, shouldn't they already understand organics?

3) I chose destroy, obviously. Dead reapers is how we win this. And yes, now the geth are gone - it's Mac Walters' fault for writing a shitty ending. Shepard promised Garrus she'd be back. 

And there will be a lot of Krogan... because Wrex. And somehow Shepard's apartment was untouched by the blast. Party at Shepard's.