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Post by sageoflife on Sept 16, 2021 5:37:57 GMT
Liara is the only original squadmate to know about the Lazarus Project and the Collector threat. She never makes any attempt to tell the rest of the SR-1's alumni even if Shepard romanced Kaidan/Ashley. If Liara was romanced in the first game and Tali was romanced in the second, she admits that she knew about Tali's feelings but kept quiet because she wanted to improve her own chances. Casts a rather different light on why she would keep Ashley/Kaidan in the dark if Shepard was romancing them. The Tali thing is whatever, I don't really see that as an issue honestly. That's Tali's fault for not saying anything in ME1, if we really wanna play that game. Overall I'm gonna copy and paste a response about Liara I made in a previous thread when talking to Mike about his typical Liara stuff... "That is correct, all of the writing problems, are Bioware's fault. Every complaint you've ever given about Liara, is Bioware's fault, and not the result of an action she's taken that is consistent with her character. If that was the case, something would be her fault. The problem is, she has no consistent character to judge anything she does. Her only consistent character trait, across the series, is her love of Shepard regardless. I couldn't give two shits about Liara honestly, I'm simply not a raging fan who blames characters for everything I hate about a game. Hating a character is valid, if they do something that is actually despicable, or makes a choice that goes against their established principles or personal rules they live by. Finally if the character is simply defined by their immoral attitude or actions. Because then they are acting villainous. Hating a character because you can't ask questions, or because she has a piece of armor you don't want her to have, or any of the other things you've listed over the years, is not valid. Because she has no character to judge these actions against, because she was never given a character. Now, since her only trait was "I love Shepard", if she for example, during those two years moved on and got with someone else, then that is a valid reason to hate her. I would disagree with hating her in that situation because I think moving on from a dead loved one in two years is an okay thing to do. However, it would be acceptable to hate her for that, because that is a conscious choice she made, that flies in the face of her only character trait. If she consciously decided to r@pe Shepard at any point, that would be a valid reason to hate her, because she's choosing to do something despicable. But she hasn't, she's never done anything that is villainous, as well as having no character flaws to be critical of. It is valid to hate Ashley for being Specist, because she is. However it's deeper than that, because the logic she uses to justify that stance, is provably correct. That is a character flaw, that was written into her story, and is thus a valid reason to hate her, but the argument persists because ultimately, she was right in ME3 about the aliens abandoning humanity like you were their dog. Being critical of art is a very nuanced process sir, and it is absolutely critical that you break things down as far as you possibly can before deciding what the problem is, because your feedback can come from a flawed understanding of the problem, and thus the developer (if they care enough to address it) will apply a fix that does not work, because the feedback they got didn't go far enough in dissecting the core issue. It is Bioware's fault, for ignoring the other characters. Not telling A/K is literally the result of the writer's forgetting the VS even exists, so ofc they don't write anything for that. Hating a character, for the actions, or lack thereof of the writer, is ridiculous. Liara does nothing during the franchise to warrant this type of vitriol and behavior, she just doesn't. She is just as much a victim of Bioware's incompetence as everyone else, because she never got to be her own unique character, because she was written to be the original Rey Skywalker. You guys need to learn to compartmentalize properly, and put the vitriol and blame where it belongs." That's a lot of words to whine about your favorite character being criticized for causing problems with her actions.
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 16, 2021 5:40:04 GMT
Neither.
Kelly seems just a nice girl who somehow ended up with the space nazis. Traynor is just kinda there and I find her neither annoying nor appealing.
And Liara is a different person in each game... just like Cerberus.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 16, 2021 6:10:55 GMT
Fair point, however I will say this. Love is an extremely selfish emotion. Also, I think it's not quite that simple, because most RL loved ones who give permission, know their about to die soon-ish, and settle their affairs. Shepard dies out of nowhere, wholly unexpectedly. Expecting permission to be given in the middle of an ambush, seems quite silly to me. In those situations then nobody does anything. Though I'm pretty sure Shepard would have some sort of will in place, since they are a soldier and know they can die at any time. Liara meanwhile committed graverobbing, ironically disrespecting Shepard in her attempt to honor them. Sure love is a selfish emotion, but that's just the motive for the creepy things she did not a defense. Shepard does not express disgust upon seeing the armor though. A very neutral "oh wow, it's my armor". Anything beyond that, is your headcanon and not really applicable. They don't give you the option of picking how Shepard feels about that. Liara is the one who found your body, and she took a memento to remember someone she cares about. It's a bit extreme to label it as grave robbing, since grave robbing is quite literally a staple of RPG gameplay that we as players do on a regular basis. How many jackets, shoes, pants, whatever, did you take off of people playing Cyberpunk, as just one example? using your logic, you and your V are creepy, disgusting grave robbers. How dare you take that stuff without permission. See, this is why it's kinda silly for these types of reasons. Anything you can accuse Liara of, is something you as the player has most likely done yourself, be it a sense of jealousy or taking something that isn't technically yours. When you break things down far enough your most likely going to run into hypocrisy at some point.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 16, 2021 6:13:52 GMT
The Tali thing is whatever, I don't really see that as an issue honestly. That's Tali's fault for not saying anything in ME1, if we really wanna play that game. Overall I'm gonna copy and paste a response about Liara I made in a previous thread when talking to Mike about his typical Liara stuff... "That is correct, all of the writing problems, are Bioware's fault. Every complaint you've ever given about Liara, is Bioware's fault, and not the result of an action she's taken that is consistent with her character. If that was the case, something would be her fault. The problem is, she has no consistent character to judge anything she does. Her only consistent character trait, across the series, is her love of Shepard regardless. I couldn't give two shits about Liara honestly, I'm simply not a raging fan who blames characters for everything I hate about a game. Hating a character is valid, if they do something that is actually despicable, or makes a choice that goes against their established principles or personal rules they live by. Finally if the character is simply defined by their immoral attitude or actions. Because then they are acting villainous. Hating a character because you can't ask questions, or because she has a piece of armor you don't want her to have, or any of the other things you've listed over the years, is not valid. Because she has no character to judge these actions against, because she was never given a character. Now, since her only trait was "I love Shepard", if she for example, during those two years moved on and got with someone else, then that is a valid reason to hate her. I would disagree with hating her in that situation because I think moving on from a dead loved one in two years is an okay thing to do. However, it would be acceptable to hate her for that, because that is a conscious choice she made, that flies in the face of her only character trait. If she consciously decided to r@pe Shepard at any point, that would be a valid reason to hate her, because she's choosing to do something despicable. But she hasn't, she's never done anything that is villainous, as well as having no character flaws to be critical of. It is valid to hate Ashley for being Specist, because she is. However it's deeper than that, because the logic she uses to justify that stance, is provably correct. That is a character flaw, that was written into her story, and is thus a valid reason to hate her, but the argument persists because ultimately, she was right in ME3 about the aliens abandoning humanity like you were their dog. Being critical of art is a very nuanced process sir, and it is absolutely critical that you break things down as far as you possibly can before deciding what the problem is, because your feedback can come from a flawed understanding of the problem, and thus the developer (if they care enough to address it) will apply a fix that does not work, because the feedback they got didn't go far enough in dissecting the core issue. It is Bioware's fault, for ignoring the other characters. Not telling A/K is literally the result of the writer's forgetting the VS even exists, so ofc they don't write anything for that. Hating a character, for the actions, or lack thereof of the writer, is ridiculous. Liara does nothing during the franchise to warrant this type of vitriol and behavior, she just doesn't. She is just as much a victim of Bioware's incompetence as everyone else, because she never got to be her own unique character, because she was written to be the original Rey Skywalker. You guys need to learn to compartmentalize properly, and put the vitriol and blame where it belongs." That's a lot of words to whine about your favorite character being criticized for causing problems with her actions. In other words, you have no counter argument, and fabricating childish claims to dismiss them because you can't deal with it. Color me shocked, that your viewpoint is so simplistic it's either "Liara sucks" or "Your a Liara fanboy". Learn to debate, and learn to be objective.
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 16, 2021 6:30:51 GMT
That's a lot of words to whine about your favorite character being criticized for causing problems with her actions. In other words, you have no counter argument, and fabricating childish claims to dismiss them because you can't deal with it. Color me shocked, that your viewpoint is so simplistic it's either "Liara sucks" or "Your a Liara fanboy". Learn to debate, and learn to be objective. Since I did not say that anywhere, you just did exactly what you accuse me of doing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 16, 2021 6:34:05 GMT
In those situations then nobody does anything. Though I'm pretty sure Shepard would have some sort of will in place, since they are a soldier and know they can die at any time. Liara meanwhile committed graverobbing, ironically disrespecting Shepard in her attempt to honor them. Sure love is a selfish emotion, but that's just the motive for the creepy things she did not a defense. Shepard does not express disgust upon seeing the armor though. A very neutral "oh wow, it's my armor". Anything beyond that, is your headcanon and not really applicable. They don't give you the option of picking how Shepard feels about that. Liara is the one who found your body, and she took a memento to remember someone she cares about. It's a bit extreme to label it as grave robbing, since grave robbing is quite literally a staple of RPG gameplay that we as players do on a regular basis. How many jackets, shoes, pants, whatever, did you take off of people playing Cyberpunk, as just one example? using your logic, you and your V are creepy, disgusting grave robbers. How dare you take that stuff without permission. See, this is why it's kinda silly for these types of reasons. Anything you can accuse Liara of, is something you as the player has most likely done yourself, be it a sense of jealousy or taking something that isn't technically yours. When you break things down far enough your most likely going to run into hypocrisy at some point. None, actually. Also didn't grave rob since my V didn't kill a single person throughout the entire game. Overall I agree with you, but the argument of it being creepy does have some merit to it. At least you're able to address it with the piece Legion has.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 16, 2021 7:28:26 GMT
In other words, you have no counter argument, and fabricating childish claims to dismiss them because you can't deal with it. Color me shocked, that your viewpoint is so simplistic it's either "Liara sucks" or "Your a Liara fanboy". Learn to debate, and learn to be objective. Since I did not say that anywhere, you just did exactly what you accuse me of doing. You literally just did, by assuming I am a Liara fanboy because I am explaining to you, why hating Liara for the reasons you lot constantly give, is rubbish. Because clearly, in your mind, the only reason I would defend her, is because I am a fanboy.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 16, 2021 7:37:10 GMT
Shepard does not express disgust upon seeing the armor though. A very neutral "oh wow, it's my armor". Anything beyond that, is your headcanon and not really applicable. They don't give you the option of picking how Shepard feels about that. Liara is the one who found your body, and she took a memento to remember someone she cares about. It's a bit extreme to label it as grave robbing, since grave robbing is quite literally a staple of RPG gameplay that we as players do on a regular basis. How many jackets, shoes, pants, whatever, did you take off of people playing Cyberpunk, as just one example? using your logic, you and your V are creepy, disgusting grave robbers. How dare you take that stuff without permission. See, this is why it's kinda silly for these types of reasons. Anything you can accuse Liara of, is something you as the player has most likely done yourself, be it a sense of jealousy or taking something that isn't technically yours. When you break things down far enough your most likely going to run into hypocrisy at some point. None, actually. Also didn't grave rob since my V didn't kill a single person throughout the entire game. Overall I agree with you, but the argument of it being creepy does have some merit to it. At least you're able to address it with the piece Legion has. Well damn, okay that's legit impressive. Still, my point remains, because I can guarantee you've done it in other games, at some point in your life.
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 16, 2021 7:43:51 GMT
Since I did not say that anywhere, you just did exactly what you accuse me of doing. You literally just did, by assuming I am a Liara fanboy because I am explaining to you, why hating Liara for the reasons you lot constantly give, is rubbish. Because clearly, in your mind, the only reason I would defend her, is because I am a fanboy. Argument: Character is disliked because they performed x action which carried x result. Rebuttal: Characters should only be disliked if judged by their actions. And yet you act surprised when no one takes you seriously.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 16, 2021 12:43:08 GMT
No, it doesn't. That armor isn't hers to keep and for all we know, we never had a good relationship with Liara. I agree. My Shepard wanted to throw the asari's whining a** back in the volcano yet Bioware forgot about that part and went with every Shepard likes the asari crap. I know people had different reactions/thoughts about what their Shepard thought when first seeing the armor, but mind thought back to what Jacob said, you were nothing but meat and tubes. Shepard's imagination runs wild of what it took to remove the armor from his/her corpse. Then thinks back to the conversation with Anderson, we thought you were dead, and back to the encounter with A/K on Horizon. So yes, I would have liked Shepard to ask the asari questions about that. It's also my number one pet peeve about the trilogy, Shepard not able to ask questions throughout the trilogy. My Shepard would also want to know if the asari made any effort to inform anyone that his/her body was in the hands of Cerberus. The other thing is the samples of dna placed in the apartment. What was the asari going to with those samples had Shepard never been revived? On Illium, she will say was I suppose to let my friend.....my Shepard never consider t'soni to be a friend. The dogtags make no sense. I don't believe her saying Hackett gave her the tags. He would know any personal belongings of Shepard would go to his/her mother, for those playing as a spacer. Since I play Arrival last in all my ME2 playthroughs, I would have liked the option to ask him about the dogtags. If the trilogy were to be remade, I would have Shepard survive the beginning of ME2 to get rid of the above crap.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 16, 2021 16:26:56 GMT
You literally just did, by assuming I am a Liara fanboy because I am explaining to you, why hating Liara for the reasons you lot constantly give, is rubbish. Because clearly, in your mind, the only reason I would defend her, is because I am a fanboy. Argument: Character is disliked because they performed x action which carried x result. Rebuttal: Characters should only be disliked if judged by their actions. And yet you act surprised when no one takes you seriously. Still no counter argument, and acting dismissive. You hate a character because the writer was lazy. That is an invalid reason to hate a character. Lie to yourself all you want. I don't care.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 16, 2021 18:14:38 GMT
There is a massive difference in love as in attachment and love as an obsession. Liara comes as an obsessive individual and very mentally unhealthy.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 16, 2021 18:25:49 GMT
There is a massive difference in love as in attachment and love as an obsession. Liara comes as an obsessive individual and very mentally unhealthy. Yes, because she has no character, and is written like garbage. For Mac and crew to love their pet that much, you can bet money that you thinking that, was nowhere near their intention. Mac wants everyone to love Liara, but people don't because they were too focused on making Liara the original Rey Skywalker that they forgot to actually give her character and traits.
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N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,934 Likes: 17,649
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 16, 2021 23:33:37 GMT
There is a massive difference in love as in attachment and love as an obsession. Liara comes as an obsessive individual and very mentally unhealthy. Yes, because she has no character, and is written like garbage. For Mac and crew to love their pet that much, you can bet money that you thinking that, was nowhere near their intention. Mac wants everyone to love Liara, but people don't because they were too focused on making Liara the original Rey Skywalker that they forgot to actually give her character and traits. That actually males sense to me once I saw it in writing here. Rey just was special. It had nothing to do with training or whatever. Greatness is just what she was. It's like how archaeologist Liara was a powerful/well-trained biotic, the best information broker and knew so well what to do to defeat and become the Shadow Broker. Then, because she was so amazing, she could run her operation aboard the Normandy while still having time to go on missions and potentially romance Shepard. No special training that we know of. She just was great because the writers said so.
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 16, 2021 23:35:26 GMT
Argument: Character is disliked because they performed x action which carried x result. Rebuttal: Characters should only be disliked if judged by their actions. And yet you act surprised when no one takes you seriously. Still no counter argument, and acting dismissive. You hate a character because the writer was lazy. That is an invalid reason to hate a character. Lie to yourself all you want. I don't care. The fact that you keep responding and making up excuses for why no one should criticize a character makes it obvious that you do care. If you didn't care you never would have responded in the first place.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 17, 2021 6:25:18 GMT
Yes, because she has no character, and is written like garbage. For Mac and crew to love their pet that much, you can bet money that you thinking that, was nowhere near their intention. Mac wants everyone to love Liara, but people don't because they were too focused on making Liara the original Rey Skywalker that they forgot to actually give her character and traits. That actually males sense to me once I saw it in writing here. Rey just was special. It had nothing to do with training or whatever. Greatness is just what she was. It's like how archaeologist Liara was a powerful/well-trained biotic, the best information broker and knew so well what to do to defeat and become the Shadow Broker. Then, because she was so amazing, she could run her operation aboard the Normandy while still having time to go on missions and potentially romance Shepard. No special training that we know of. She just was great because the writers said so. Exactly, you actually understand. Every Liara problem, is squarely due to Bioware's writing incompetence. Liara never actually got to be a real character.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 17, 2021 6:30:07 GMT
Still no counter argument, and acting dismissive. You hate a character because the writer was lazy. That is an invalid reason to hate a character. Lie to yourself all you want. I don't care. The fact that you keep responding and making up excuses for why no one should criticize a character makes it obvious that you do care. If you didn't care you never would have responded in the first place. No, I gave you the parameters by which criticizing a character is logical. You refuse to accept it because your a typical person on the internet who will never change their mind. You do you, and continue to be willfully obtuse.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 17, 2021 6:40:47 GMT
None, actually. Also didn't grave rob since my V didn't kill a single person throughout the entire game. Overall I agree with you, but the argument of it being creepy does have some merit to it. At least you're able to address it with the piece Legion has. Well damn, okay that's legit impressive. Still, my point remains, because I can guarantee you've done it in other games, at some point in your life. Thanks. Being ale to play like that was probably the biggest thing that led me to buying the game. I love games that allow those kinds of playstyles. And yeah, like I said I overall agree with your point. Though to be fair in the games you do loot the people you kill, you tend to not be doing that to display respect for them. 
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Post by sageoflife on Sept 17, 2021 7:10:09 GMT
The fact that you keep responding and making up excuses for why no one should criticize a character makes it obvious that you do care. If you didn't care you never would have responded in the first place. No, I gave you the parameters by which criticizing a character is logical. You refuse to accept it because your a typical person on the internet who will never change their mind. You do you, and continue to be willfully obtuse. For someone who claims not to care, you spend a lot of time making up excuses for why a character shouldn't be criticized, even to the point of ignoring that the criticisms you are complaining about are within your "parameters".
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 17, 2021 11:57:53 GMT
No, it doesn't. That armor isn't hers to keep and for all we know, we never had a good relationship with Liara. I agree. My Shepard wanted to throw the asari's whining a** back in the volcano yet Bioware forgot about that part and went with every Shepard likes the asari crap. I know people had different reactions/thoughts about what their Shepard thought when first seeing the armor, but mind thought back to what Jacob said, you were nothing but meat and tubes. Shepard's imagination runs wild of what it took to remove the armor from his/her corpse. Then thinks back to the conversation with Anderson, we thought you were dead, and back to the encounter with A/K on Horizon. So yes, I would have liked Shepard to ask the asari questions about that. It's also my number one pet peeve about the trilogy, Shepard not able to ask questions throughout the trilogy. My Shepard would also want to know if the asari made any effort to inform anyone that his/her body was in the hands of Cerberus. The other thing is the samples of dna placed in the apartment. What was the asari going to with those samples had Shepard never been revived? On Illium, she will say was I suppose to let my friend.....my Shepard never consider t'soni to be a friend. The dogtags make no sense. I don't believe her saying Hackett gave her the tags. He would know any personal belongings of Shepard would go to his/her mother, for those playing as a spacer. Since I play Arrival last in all my ME2 playthroughs, I would have liked the option to ask him about the dogtags. If the trilogy were to be remade, I would have Shepard survive the beginning of ME2 to get rid of the above crap. We already know the answer to that: Liara didn't. That's the reason why A/K was so upset, they had no idea what was going on, and it looks like Shepard faked his death and then joined a known terrorist outfit. Liara had no interest in informing A/K or anyone else because she wants to make moves on Shepard.
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Post by Sonya on Sept 17, 2021 13:46:30 GMT
Some can't understand there are people who are able to put aside feelings and emotions to focus on facts and use logic. After make certain conclusion according to person's understanding, experience, world views - others may not like it, but that's not the point, they have another opinion and that's how is happens. It does not involve any liking, zero f*cks about character the person is analysing.
"Turning on" emotinal part is another thing a person can do if wants.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 17, 2021 13:56:53 GMT
We already know the answer to that: Liara didn't. That's the reason why A/K was so upset, they had no idea what was going on, and it looks like Shepard faked his death and then joined a known terrorist outfit. Liara had no interest in informing A/K or anyone else because she wants to make moves on Shepard. All smurette had to do was send the armor to the Alliance, anonymously if she wanted to avoid any negative feedback, letting them know Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus. They test the armor confirming it is Shepard's. Whether they believe the body is in the hands of Cerberus is up to them. It's also up to them to let A/K know. There was no reason the asari had to inform A/K of anything. But because the asari suffered from obsession-for-a-human syndrome, that didn't happen. I believe Bioware avoided giving Shepard the option to ask the asari questions about the armor and a couple other things because they didn't want to create any friction between the alien and Shepard. That is seen in ME3 even though there are a couple of times the asari deserved to be smacked upside the head.
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midnightwolf
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: BlackSassyWolf
XBL Gamertag: BlackSassyWolf
Posts: 945 Likes: 1,226
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by midnightwolf on Sept 19, 2021 18:03:45 GMT
While I like both characters, I find both to be equally annoying in this respect.
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Post by obbie1984 on Sept 20, 2021 19:38:13 GMT
Shepard cannot display disgust toward Liara because Bioware doesn't let you be mean to Liara because of their own bias and lack of writing.
She acts like a brat during Thessia. I hate her especially when she says the Alliance can provide air support next time we go to war. Or how I can't tell her Javik is right and she's acting like an idiot. You cannot even get mad at her when you find out she gave you to Cerberus.
Even when you act cold to her, you still have many scenes where you act like friends like that terrible dialogue hacking the door in LotSB DLC.. The best you can do is mild neglect. But even then you are best buds. She still comes to my rescue in the Citadel DLC and flirts with me when I only talked to her when the game forces me.
Keeping the armor is creepy plain and simple. Unless you are with her, it makes no sense. Keeping it if you romanced the VS is doubly worse.
Liara is a poorly written obssesive weirdo that Bioware tries hard to get you to like.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2021 20:44:50 GMT
BioWare needs to stop trying to force best friends on the protagonists. Liara, Garrus, Varric, etc. Whenever they try to force it, it just hurts the character and the relationship with them.
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