Guardian
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 483 Likes: 802
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guardian
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Guardian on Sept 25, 2021 5:14:43 GMT
She...she's not real, man. She is a fictional character written by a game developer. You can hate a character for how they are written because they only exist as writing. She doesn't choose anything because she doesn't have free will. I hate Ma-Rey Sue from Star Wars but have been told I am sexiest because I don't like her, even though I hate her because she is an objectively bad written character. This is really one of the two defenses they have for people not liking Rey the other being they try to say that since it's not Luke, they'll be hated automatically.
While I can see where people find Liara creepy (especially in the first ME game), at least for me, she mellowed out in ME 2. Again, this is just my own personal observation/feeling. And no, I didn't romance her. Never really had any desire to, especially since she was so....creepy in ME 1. Just turned me right off of pursuing anything with her. ME 2, I find her to be more...normal.... (and then back to a petulant child during Thessia).
Yes, she's badly written, and she is forced on us. Both things can be and are true. But is it right they force her (or anyone like that) on us? No, I don't think so. Another example is Cerberus being also forced on us as well....which I also don't think is right. They also force Miranda on us (this is before she showed growth and was a person beyond the "Cerberus Cheerleader" gimmick).
As for the actual topic at hand - while I don't hate either really, Kelly just....kinda gave me these weird.... "vibes". I don't know what it was, but just something didn't sit right with me. Again, I don't hate her or find her annoying, but just...when I first met her, it just made me feel like there was something more going on. Granted, we're told what in 3, and she regrets those actions. I can't fault her for that; but it did sting a little when she did reveal it. I mean, at least Jacob and Miranda are up front and truthful about what they're doing. Still, don't fault her for it; she saw what was really going on and felt bad about it.
Just some thoughts.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 25, 2021 6:49:25 GMT
All of the writing problems, are Bioware's fault. Every complaint I've seen about Liara, is Bioware's fault, and not the result of an action she's taken that is consistent with her character. If that was the case, something would be her fault. The problem is, she has no consistent character to judge anything she does. Her only consistent character trait, across the series, is her love of Shepard regardless. Hating a character is valid, if they do something that is actually despicable, or makes a choice that goes against their established principles or personal rules they live by. Finally if the character is simply defined by their immoral attitude or actions. Because then they are acting villainous. Hating a character because you can't ask questions, or because she has a piece of armor you don't want her to have, or any of the other things you've listed over the years, is not valid. Because she has no character to judge these actions against, because she was never given a character. Now, since her only trait was "I love Shepard", if she for example, during those two years moved on and got with someone else, then that is a valid reason to hate her. I would disagree with hating her in that situation because I think moving on from a dead loved one in two years is an okay thing to do. However, it would be acceptable to hate her for that, because that is a conscious choice she made, that flies in the face of her only character trait. If she consciously decided to r@pe Shepard at any point, that would be a valid reason to hate her, because she's choosing to do something despicable. But she hasn't, she's never done anything that is villainous, as well as having no character flaws to be critical of. It is valid to hate Ashley for being Specist, because she is. However it's deeper than that, because the logic she uses to justify that stance, is provably correct. That is a character flaw, that was written into her story, and is thus a valid reason to hate her, but the argument persists because ultimately, she was right in ME3 about the aliens abandoning humanity like you were their dog. Being critical of art is a very nuanced process sir, and it is absolutely critical that you break things down as far as you possibly can before deciding what the problem is, because your feedback can come from a flawed understanding of the problem, and thus the developer (if they care enough to address it) will apply a fix that does not work, because the feedback they got didn't go far enough in dissecting the core issue. It is Bioware's fault, for ignoring the other characters. Not telling A/K is literally the result of the writer's forgetting the VS even exists, so ofc they don't write anything for that. Hating a character, for the actions, or lack thereof of the writer, is ridiculous. Liara does nothing during the franchise to warrant this type of vitriol and behavior, she just doesn't. She is just as much a victim of Bioware's incompetence as everyone else, because she never got to be her own unique character, because she was written to be the original Rey Skywalker. You guys need to learn to compartmentalize properly, and put the vitriol and blame where it belongs. Yea, you can hate how she is written. That does not mean you hate on her, and act as if she's a terrible person. Calm down, she's a fictional character. Sir I am perfectly calm, I'm just tired of people acting like Liara is a vindictive stalker because bioware sucks at writing. It's petty ass whining about dumb shit that I'm sick to death of seeing for 10 years. People boiling the problem down to something as smooth brained as "Liara sucks" does not even begin to address the core issue, and I highly doubt such complaints will ever be taken seriously by people who might lurk around here.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 25, 2021 6:55:30 GMT
I hate Ma-Rey Sue from Star Wars but have been told I am sexiest because I don't like her, even though I hate her because she is an objectively bad written character. This is really one of the two defenses they have for people not liking Rey the other being they try to say that since it's not Luke, they'll be hated automatically.
While I can see where people find Liara creepy (especially in the first ME game), at least for me, she mellowed out in ME 2. Again, this is just my own personal observation/feeling. And no, I didn't romance her. Never really had any desire to, especially since she was so....creepy in ME 1. Just turned me right off of pursuing anything with her. ME 2, I find her to be more...normal.... (and then back to a petulant child during Thessia).
Yes, she's badly written, and she is forced on us. Both things can be and are true. But is it right they force her (or anyone like that) on us? No, I don't think so. Another example is Cerberus being also forced on us as well....which I also don't think is right. They also force Miranda on us (this is before she showed growth and was a person beyond the "Cerberus Cheerleader" gimmick).
As for the actual topic at hand - while I don't hate either really, Kelly just....kinda gave me these weird.... "vibes". I don't know what it was, but just something didn't sit right with me. Again, I don't hate her or find her annoying, but just...when I first met her, it just made me feel like there was something more going on. Granted, we're told what in 3, and she regrets those actions. I can't fault her for that; but it did sting a little when she did reveal it. I mean, at least Jacob and Miranda are up front and truthful about what they're doing. Still, don't fault her for it; she saw what was really going on and felt bad about it.
Just some thoughts.
Indeed, yet lots of people, some who hate Liara for that very reason, have no issue with Cerberus, because they would prefer to work with the slaving, child killing, torturing, death camp having people than the military, because "Waaah politicians!"....right, because Hitler is way better...
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 25, 2021 11:40:28 GMT
Calm down, she's a fictional character. Sir I am perfectly calm, I'm just tired of people acting like Liara is a vindictive stalker because bioware sucks at writing. It's petty ass whining about dumb shit that I'm sick to death of seeing for 10 years. People boiling the problem down to something as smooth brained as "Liara sucks" does not even begin to address the core issue, and I highly doubt such complaints will ever be taken seriously by people who might lurk around here. Liara being written as a stalker doesn't mean Liara is a good character.
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Post by Sonya on Sept 25, 2021 11:44:03 GMT
With such attitude there is nothing to discuss at all: events, characters, outcomes. Only combat is left. At least it is something.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 25, 2021 12:24:36 GMT
With such attitude there is nothing to discuss at all: events, characters, outcomes. Only combat is left. At least it is something. You can't even fault the combat. It was purely designed that way. It's the developer's fault that it came out that way, because that's what they wanted.
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Post by Sonya on Sept 25, 2021 13:58:40 GMT
You can't even fault the combat. It was purely designed that way. It's the developer's fault that it came out that way, because that's what they wanted. Alert athourities. 3/4 of threads are pointless.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 25, 2021 14:06:52 GMT
Sir I am perfectly calm, I'm just tired of people acting like Liara is a vindictive stalker because bioware sucks at writing. It's petty ass whining about dumb shit that I'm sick to death of seeing for 10 years. People boiling the problem down to something as smooth brained as "Liara sucks" does not even begin to address the core issue, and I highly doubt such complaints will ever be taken seriously by people who might lurk around here. Liara being written as a stalker doesn't mean Liara is a good character. Did I say she's a good character? No, not one time. You have to be a character first, in order to be a good or bad character. I made this perfectly clear. She is prototype Rey Skywalker. THe ultimate example of someone whos a trope, instead of a character.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 25, 2021 14:12:30 GMT
With such attitude there is nothing to discuss at all: events, characters, outcomes. Only combat is left. At least it is something. You can't even fault the combat. It was purely designed that way. It's the developer's fault that it came out that way, because that's what they wanted. Right, continue to be your typical pedantic self because you can't even bother trying to counter the point. Because you know I'm right, and none of you wanna put in the time to write Walls of text to properly articulate your issues, You just wanna "X sucks because basic reason" because that's easier. Trust me, I understand. But Mauler spent an hour on the first sentence of TFA's title crawl. You gotta break it down.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 25, 2021 14:15:59 GMT
You can't even fault the combat. It was purely designed that way. It's the developer's fault that it came out that way, because that's what they wanted. Alert athourities. 3/4 of threads are pointless. I mean...yea they actually are, because they're all shit we've talked to death like 5 years ago and still continue to talk about them some more because fuck it why not. If Bioware hasn't taken in the feedback of "liara sucks" after 10 years dude, then they never will and your wasting your time.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 25, 2021 15:24:10 GMT
You can't even fault the combat. It was purely designed that way. It's the developer's fault that it came out that way, because that's what they wanted. Right, continue to be your typical pedantic self because you can't even bother trying to counter the point. Because you know I'm right, and none of you wanna put in the time to write Walls of text to properly articulate your issues, You just wanna "X sucks because basic reason" because that's easier. Trust me, I understand. But Mauler spent an hour on the first sentence of TFA's title crawl. You gotta break it down. You're making the argument that none of the actions of the character are her fault, because she was written that way. Just try applying that to Rey. It's not her fault she's a Mary Sue, she was just written that way. Which is true, if you're making a case for Daisy Ridley. It's not her portrayal that makes Rey bad. You could have Glenn Close, arguably the best movie actress alive right now, play Rey and the critique would still be the same. Arguably, as a "character" Peebee is a better end product of the writing, because she's annoying and petulant and all around awful, but even that has more depth than "Shepard, we have a connection". You can even kill her mum in front of her and still, 5 minutes later, she's thirsty for your dick. That's not good characterization. Neither is going from archeologist to information brokering a natural course of development, because, you see, she examines data. It doesn't make sense. She goes from being this shallow "am I kawaii, uguu" thing to being all over the place. She's the Milky Way's leading Prothean expert, but she is also the most powerful biotic you can get on your team, but she is also the Shadow Broker, but she is also cute and quirky, but she is also ruthless and calculated, but she is also controlled and composed, but she's also a hopeless romantic that loves you unconditionally. Half of her characterization conflicts with the other half of her characterization. She is inconsistent. And, you know, Bioware wrote her that way. To which I can only say "yeah, no shit". That's the fucking problem. A poorly written character, is a bad character. But that doesn't mean because the writer did a bad job, she is absolved of all criticism. You can say that for Ali Hillis, who does an outstanding job to make her as likable as possible.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Sept 25, 2021 15:45:39 GMT
Right, continue to be your typical pedantic self because you can't even bother trying to counter the point. Because you know I'm right, and none of you wanna put in the time to write Walls of text to properly articulate your issues, You just wanna "X sucks because basic reason" because that's easier. Trust me, I understand. But Mauler spent an hour on the first sentence of TFA's title crawl. You gotta break it down. You're making the argument that none of the actions of the character are her fault, because she was written that way. Just try applying that to Rey. It's not her fault she's a Mary Sue, she was just written that way. Which is true, if you're making a case for Daisy Ridley. It's not her portrayal that makes Rey bad. You could have Glenn Close, arguably the best movie actress alive right now, play Rey and the critique would still be the same. Arguably, as a "character" Peebee is a better end product of the writing, because she's annoying and petulant and all around awful, but even that has more depth than "Shepard, we have a connection". You can even kill her mum in front of her and still, 5 minutes later, she's thirsty for your dick. That's not good characterization. Neither is going from archeologist to information brokering a natural course of development, because, you see, she examines data. It doesn't make sense. She goes from being this shallow "am I kawaii, uguu" thing to being all over the place. She's the Milky Way's leading Prothean expert, but she is also the most powerful biotic you can get on your team, but she is also the Shadow Broker, but she is also cute and quirky, but she is also ruthless and calculated, but she is also controlled and composed, but she's also a hopeless romantic that loves you unconditionally. Half of her characterization conflicts with the other half of her characterization. She is inconsistent. And, you know, Bioware wrote her that way. To which I can only say "yeah, no shit". That's the fucking problem. A poorly written character, is a bad character. But that doesn't mean because the writer did a bad job, she is absolved of all criticism. You can say that for Ali Hillis, who does an outstanding job to make her as likable as possible.
Funny, because you literally just absolved the writer of all criticism, because it seems your assumption is she was written poorly on purpose, which I find impossible to believe given how much Mac wanted everyone to love her as "totes the best". As you just said, she has no character at all. She's all over the fucking place. She's a total mess, you can't judge her actions because they don't follow consistent behavior or character logic. They just happen because Mac demands it and puts no thought into why. That's the writer. YOu can't say an empty plot device is a bad person, because their not a person to start with.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 25, 2021 16:05:36 GMT
Funny, because you literally just absolved the writer of all criticism I don't know how to tell you this, but "this character is shit" is a criticism toward the writer. It means don't do this, ever again. And get rid of this character. Like JJ Abrams did with Rose Tico. Like we said about Sera in Inquisition and Peebee in Andromeda. And Kai fucking Leng. It's the way to criticizing. You don't go "oh, it's OK to make Rose Tico, it's what Rian Johnson wanted to make". Rian Johnson made a terrible job and created a terrible character. I don't care to see Rose Tico "fixed" under a new writer, I want her out. And I want Kelly Marie Tran to be given a proper character to play as.
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Post by Sonya on Sept 25, 2021 16:15:21 GMT
I mean...yea they actually are, because they're all shit we've talked to death like 5 years ago and still continue to talk about them some more because fuck it why not. If Bioware hasn't taken in the feedback of "liara sucks" after 10 years dude, then they never will and your wasting your time. 3/4 of threads are not about Liara who "has no character". By these words you are saying the rest threads are all shit? It is not "fuck it why not"- reason to discuss the same topics. New people, new thoughts, old people, old and new thoughts. "Thinking/communication" is build in in human nature; usually.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Feb 19, 2022 5:17:05 GMT
Neither is annoying. I like both of them. Traynor in particular is actually really good at her job.
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Post by damdil on Feb 25, 2022 0:36:05 GMT
Imo it's Traynor by far since even if you don't like her there's no way around her. That she at time plays a key part in the story gets somewhat shoved in your face without any reason except to show you how competent she is. Also given that she shares no history with the old crew, Traynor is mostly straight out intrusive and sometimes even rude towards Shepard and the party.
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Primitive God
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Games: Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Primitive God on Jun 24, 2022 23:27:33 GMT
Traynor. Reading my emails and rejecting my male Shepard. Like who the hell does she think she is.
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