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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 3, 2021 2:34:24 GMT
I mean, "insanity of a single person" (while ignoring their backgorund) is a pretty tidy excuse, isn't it? But I've honestly come to... kinda expect nothing else given the previous selectiveness you chose to employ while harping about your perceived selectiveness of others. Glowing's at least a good indicator, I suppose? I mean, imagine how many people I could call "insane" from where I'm sitting if the Pretty Obvious Cues like glowing read isn't a thing (In fact, Tarohne does have a few things that some could see as cues, but eh). I could probably call every single living andrastian "insane". But that's not politically correct I suppose, and I'm usually trying to avoid ableist screeching. Templars are "not supporting purge"? Okay, how did you come up with that one? There's no indication for their lack of support. And while nobody steps forward and declares that they are on board, what we see is a lot of templars... just being busy "purging the circle", apart from possibly that courtyard example (which I suppose hinges on Cullen more than everything else), as well as Cullen's "last minute convenient change of heart" at the finale, to use his own phrasings.
Of course, how could I forget that duskwanderer is supposed to be only legit arbiter of "truhf" and the only one permitted to accuse others of "forcing a narrative" in any case, instead of, you know, merely attempting to force his own interpretations.
But yeah, nice distraction you pulled here. I had a least a bit of fun engaging it, but that's now over again.
How did I come up with it? Because there are mages from Kirkwall in DA:I, which takes place after DA2. You can't be alive in DA:I if you died in DA2. Again, you may not like it because it doesn't support your claims that templars are bad because all Andrastian is bad, but it's the truth. Maybe you should try more basic facts of quests and less rage. Uh, that they are alive in DAI doesn't say anything about the stance of the rank-and-file templars had regarding the Annulment. It merely shows that some mages made it out.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 3, 2021 4:48:17 GMT
How did I come up with it? Because there are mages from Kirkwall in DA:I, which takes place after DA2. You can't be alive in DA:I if you died in DA2. Again, you may not like it because it doesn't support your claims that templars are bad because all Andrastian is bad, but it's the truth. Maybe you should try more basic facts of quests and less rage. Uh, that they are alive in DAI doesn't say anything about the stance of the rank-and-file templars had regarding the Annulment. It merely shows that some mages made it out.
The stance of what? Come now, don't make things up because it doesn't suit your agenda. The templars couldn't have purged all of the mages as you claim because they weren't purged. The reason is very simple: The templars did not choose to kill them all, despite being attacked repeatedly. A person's opinion differs greatly. Three people will have six opinions on a subject. What matters is what they did.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Sept 3, 2021 4:56:17 GMT
Uh, that they are alive in DAI doesn't say anything about the stance of the rank-and-file templars had regarding the Annulment. It merely shows that some mages made it out.
The stance of what? Come now, don't make things up because it doesn't suit your agenda. The templars couldn't have purged all of the mages as you claim because they weren't purged. The reason is very simple: The templars did not choose to kill them all, despite being attacked repeatedly. A person's opinion differs greatly. Three people will have six opinions on a subject. What matters is what they did. To be fair, that's assuming that the only reason mages could still be alive is that a templar intentionally kept them alive. Some could have hid or simply were very good at fleeing. I mean, I'm certain that not every single templar was happy with Meredith's policies (and her annulling of the Circle), but I also think there were more than enough templars in Kirkwall giving templars a bad name. The abuses we kept hearing of throughout the game are evidence of that.
However, I will submit an opinion that may blow some people's minds: the Chantry fucked over the templars too, not just the mages.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 3, 2021 6:11:48 GMT
Uh, that they are alive in DAI doesn't say anything about the stance of the rank-and-file templars had regarding the Annulment. It merely shows that some mages made it out.
The stance of what? Come now, don't make things up because it doesn't suit your agenda. The templars couldn't have purged all of the mages as you claim because they weren't purged. The reason is very simple: The templars did not choose to kill them all, despite being attacked repeatedly. A person's opinion differs greatly. Three people will have six opinions on a subject. What matters is what they did. Nuh-oh. I'm not going to fall for your attempt to shift the goalposts and twist my words around here. Besides, your last line does show that you seem to get it, you're just being disingenious again. You can attempt to distract by accusing me of "muh agenda" all the way you want. You started this mess of line of discussion by stating this: The templars did not support purge the Circle, despite Meredith's order. This is true because Kirkwall mages lived past the events of DA2, we see it in DA:I. You claim templars did not support Annulment. That is what I above called their stance. There's no evidence of what the rank-and-file thought in the game; none of them ever tells us about it. Then you take it backwards and claim that, since there are any mages alive, it follows (for you) that the templars did not "choose" to kill these. You start with the conclusion you want to arrive at (That's no how it works, and going by your persistently obnoxious, haughty and bad-faith attempts to lecture everyone, I suppose you ought to have noticed that, eh?). Your line of reasoning seems to be that, if these templars would have "chosen" to kill all the mages, they would have inevitably succeeded in killing them all. And that's a leap. However, I will submit an opinion that may blow some people's minds: the Chantry fucked over the templars too, not just the mages. Eh, it is not that edgy, Cassandra also does it in DAI. She does however try to draw some sort of comparison, i.e. false equivalence. It doesn't change that one group is merely defined by an innate ability or condition of theirs and the other is a military spec ops organisation, whose members either volunteer or are volunteered by their parents. Sure, in case of the latter, an individual might have had "no choice", but there are no points to be had for taking these volunteered people hostage, even if just rhetorically. Also, one side is put as the manifested devil of that particular religion or divinely punished or "cursed/blessed" (depending on what point one wants to make, though the former clearly dominates) whereas the other has life-and-death power over the former and gets an increased amont of deference and hype, up to the point that templars seem to be encouraged to think that they cannot do wrong because they are templars. Or that the Maker is with them, that they are doing "His will/work", or that they have dominance over mages by divine right or whatever, it boils down to the same.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2021 6:18:00 GMT
IF we went commoner, what KIND of commoner? We gonna be a farmer? Whatever kind, it would have to e something that made sense for why they are trained in any of the classes.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 3, 2021 6:35:57 GMT
Whatever kind, it would have to e something that made sense for why they are trained in any of the classes. The question is how one could stretch that... we might be restricted to, say, specialised guards (Fenris without lyrium) military members (if that's a thing for slaves) and Siccari (for the rogues). To be honest, looking at DAI's character set, I'm not sure how much sense someone like Brosca (gang enforcer) or Tabris (knows how to fight because mom taught it in secret) would make in that regard.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 3, 2021 7:27:46 GMT
How did I come up with it? Because there are mages from Kirkwall in DA:I, which takes place after DA2. You can't be alive in DA:I if you died in DA2. Again, you may not like it because it doesn't support your claims that templars are bad because all Andrastian is bad, but it's the truth. Maybe you should try more basic facts of quests and less rage. Uh, that they are alive in DAI doesn't say anything about the stance of the rank-and-file templars had regarding the Annulment. It merely shows that some mages made it out.
There's also the possibility that these Kirkwall mages escaped well before the annulment even started. People often forget about it, but Kirkwall had a thriving Mage Underground where even average civilians were willing to help mages escape the city's Circle. There was even a point where they sent raiding parties to the Gallows via tunnels in order to transport mages directly. And while I will grant that there were some good templars in Kirkwall, it should surprise no one that a sizable portion of templars, in all likelihood, embraced the annulment with open zeal. There were way too many signs of systematic abuse in the Circle, and it has all but been confirmed that Meredith was either silencing templar dissenters or straight up causing them to leave the Order entirely. By the time the annulment was put into effect, the number of 'good' templars on duty was likely drastically reduced due to Meredith's draconian leadership. But I trust that at least some of them were still around. But was that enough? The mission parameters of an annulment are clear, and if templars were really against Meredith's annulment declaration, then why didn't they stop her? Oh sure, trying to kill the Champion is a bridge to far and they rally to rebel against her authority, but following an annulment declaration based on the actions of a rogue apostate? Minimal complaint. So yeah no...Something tells me that most templars there were either wanting to kill mages or were of the earnest belief that the Circle was "too far gone" to be considered salvageable despite their mage sympathies. Mages surviving that annulment were most likely due to a minority of templars having mercy, mages escaping in the chaos, or not even being at the Circle by the time the annulment was declared. There is alot of evidence supporting any of these scenarios as opposed to just assuming "The templars did not support purging the Circle".
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 3, 2021 7:49:06 GMT
Hellllllo You guys been discussing anything but the OP for pages. IF we went commoner, what KIND of commoner? We gonna be a farmer? If we went slave, what KIND of slave? What if instead of being owned by one, there was sort of a slave ring that simple did general labor? Like, owned by the city itself to do the city work? Keep the magic flames lit? If it is a one origin fits all situation, then I can see a commoner being very similar to Hawke. If we’re a mage, one of our parents was a mage and they taught our character to control their power etc etc. If warrior or rogue, then the other parent taught us to fight/hunt/pick locks?? Etc in order to defend ourselves. Death of either or both parents will be the inciting event that starts the player character on their journey.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 3, 2021 8:47:22 GMT
IF we went commoner, what KIND of commoner? We gonna be a farmer? If we went slave, what KIND of slave? What if instead of being owned by one, there was sort of a slave ring that simple did general labor? Like, owned by the city itself to do the city work? Keep the magic flames lit? I don't think there are going to be multiple origins. The best we are going to get is like in DAI or possibly like in Mass Effect, where you get to choose from three backgrounds in which they grew up and then from two scenarios in their later career. Working on the last idea: 1. Raised in a village as a farmer/blacksmith/hunter. Knowledge of defending and fending for yourself in the wild. 2. Raised in a city, possibly orphaned at an early age. Knowledge of surviving in the slums and the seedy underworld politics. 3. Raised on the island of Seheron. Learned about espionage from an early age. Professional career: (Both can fit either a warrior, rogue or mage.) Part of military that suffered devastating defeat by Qunari; troops were made a scapegoat for failings of superiors. Dishonourable discharge. Part of Imperial templar force either regular or apprentice justicar; got too close to the truth about a high ranking family, who framed you for a crime that had you thrown out of office in disgrace. The upshot is that you have lost any prestige or rank you may have once had. You know the ruling elite are both corrupt and inept in dealing with the issues that are threatening the survival of your country and aim to do something about it.
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theascendent
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Sept 3, 2021 9:13:07 GMT
A Mass Effect style of origins could be interesting. And so many varieties with the multiple races.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 3, 2021 12:45:03 GMT
The stance of what? Come now, don't make things up because it doesn't suit your agenda. The templars couldn't have purged all of the mages as you claim because they weren't purged. The reason is very simple: The templars did not choose to kill them all, despite being attacked repeatedly. A person's opinion differs greatly. Three people will have six opinions on a subject. What matters is what they did. Nuh-oh. I'm not going to fall for your attempt to shift the goalposts and twist my words around here. Besides, your last line does show that you seem to get it, you're just being disingenious again. You can attempt to distract by accusing me of "muh agenda" all the way you want. You started this mess of line of discussion by stating this: The templars did not support purge the Circle, despite Meredith's order. This is true because Kirkwall mages lived past the events of DA2, we see it in DA:I. You claim templars did not support Annulment. That is what I above called their stance. There's no evidence of what the rank-and-file thought in the game; none of them ever tells us about it. Then you take it backwards and claim that, since there are any mages alive, it follows (for you) that the templars did not "choose" to kill these. You start with the conclusion you want to arrive at (That's no how it works, and going by your persistently obnoxious, haughty and bad-faith attempts to lecture everyone, I suppose you ought to have noticed that, eh?). Your line of reasoning seems to be that, if these templars would have "chosen" to kill all the mages, they would have inevitably succeeded in killing them all. And that's a leap. However, I will submit an opinion that may blow some people's minds: the Chantry fucked over the templars too, not just the mages. Eh, it is not that edgy, Cassandra also does it in DAI. She does however try to draw some sort of comparison, i.e. false equivalence. It doesn't change that one group is merely defined by an innate ability or condition of theirs and the other is a military spec ops organisation, whose members either volunteer or are volunteered by their parents. Sure, in case of the latter, an individual might have had "no choice", but there are no points to be had for taking these volunteered people hostage, even if just rhetorically. Also, one side is put as the manifested devil of that particular religion or divinely punished or "cursed/blessed" (depending on what point one wants to make, though the former clearly dominates) whereas the other has life-and-death power over the former and gets an increased amont of deference and hype, up to the point that templars seem to be encouraged to think that they cannot do wrong because they are templars. Or that the Maker is with them, that they are doing "His will/work", or that they have dominance over mages by divine right or whatever, it boils down to the same. Twisting words? Come now, just because you've lost the argument that's hardly my fault. The evidence doesn't support your zealotry and hatred, that's all. I understand the fact that Andrastrian's aren't all evil is something you can't process. It's the sort of twisted argument I expect from you: You attack someone else when your facts don't add up. The templars didn't support Annulment. Otherwise, they would've never spared any of the mages. Especially true when the mages come out and surrender during the templar. It's not hard to kill a defenseless prisoner: One arrow is pretty easy (the mages aren't wearing armor, their faces are exposed). And yet, they don't. Only Meredith (and maybe Hawke) can choose to kill them, and it's so easily ignored. You have no evidence to support anything else If you want to whine about bad-faith arguments, talk to yourself. Your hatred of Andraste warps anything you say and do, perhaps its due to some deep-seeded personal opinion, desperate for applicability to a group you hate.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 3, 2021 12:51:31 GMT
Uh, that they are alive in DAI doesn't say anything about the stance of the rank-and-file templars had regarding the Annulment. It merely shows that some mages made it out.
There's also the possibility that these Kirkwall mages escaped well before the annulment even started. People often forget about it, but Kirkwall had a thriving Mage Underground where even average civilians were willing to help mages escape the city's Circle. There was even a point where they sent raiding parties to the Gallows via tunnels in order to transport mages directly. And while I will grant that there were some good templars in Kirkwall, it should surprise no one that a sizable portion of templars, in all likelihood, embraced the annulment with open zeal. There were way too many signs of systematic abuse in the Circle, and it has all but been confirmed that Meredith was either silencing templar dissenters or straight up causing them to leave the Order entirely. By the time the annulment was put into effect, the number of 'good' templars on duty was likely drastically reduced due to Meredith's draconian leadership. But I trust that at least some of them were still around. But was that enough? The mission parameters of an annulment are clear, and if templars were really against Meredith's annulment declaration, then why didn't they stop her? Oh sure, trying to kill the Champion is a bridge to far and they rally to rebel against her authority, but following an annulment declaration based on the actions of a rogue apostate? Minimal complaint. So yeah no...Something tells me that most templars there were either wanting to kill mages or were of the earnest belief that the Circle was "too far gone" to be considered salvageable despite their mage sympathies. Mages surviving that annulment were most likely due to a minority of templars having mercy, mages escaping in the chaos, or not even being at the Circle by the time the annulment was declared. There is alot of evidence supporting any of these scenarios as opposed to just assuming "The templars did not support purging the Circle". Consider your sources when such things are described. Who is the one that tells you this happens? The mages. More specifically, it's Anders (who has absolutely no compunction about lying to you to support his cause), and the Mage Underground (again, who are working for a cause and have no trouble framing someone for crimes). The only abusers we can actually verify were the templar transferring to Starkhaven and Ser Alrik. Sure, he's evil. So are Tarohne and Quentin. So are a lot of people.
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 3, 2021 13:05:47 GMT
Bioware loves the unreliable narrator. It's always a good idea to assume that all information sources in game are shading the truth in pursuit of some agenda. From a game design stand point, this helps with continuity errors. They can explain away any inconsistencies as being the fault of the narrator in question rather than sloppy writing.
#cynicism
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Post by Sonya on Sept 3, 2021 13:19:44 GMT
It is already tiresome to be noble. That option still should be in DA4 but prefer commoner/slave.
Slave is alright, but only with a proper story. Something similar to Fenris e.g. to be on the run, hunted or just random encounters with slavers.
Commoner is better but not city-connected. Remote area, living on your own and far-far-far away from society. Such way of life has its influence on the person anyway and that would be interesting.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 3, 2021 15:40:14 GMT
Bioware loves the unreliable narrator. It's always a good idea to assume that all information sources in game are shading the truth in pursuit of some agenda. From a game design stand point, this helps with continuity errors. They can explain away any inconsistencies as being the fault of the narrator in question rather than sloppy writing. #cynicism Sloppy writing, inconsistencies, and all of that are terrible things, I'm with you on that. As for an origin, a community leader of a small village might be interesting. Consider how Tevinter is a stand-in for the Byzantines, and you'd have a lot of that Balkan-area influences, as Tevinter was that big.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 4, 2021 14:11:28 GMT
Twisting words? Come now, just because you've lost the argument that's hardly my fault. The evidence doesn't support your zealotry and hatred, that's all. I understand the fact that Andrastrian's aren't all evil is something you can't process. It's the sort of twisted argument I expect from you: You attack someone else when your facts don't add up. The templars didn't support Annulment. Otherwise, they would've never spared any of the mages. Especially true when the mages come out and surrender during the templar. It's not hard to kill a defenseless prisoner: One arrow is pretty easy (the mages aren't wearing armor, their faces are exposed). And yet, they don't. Only Meredith (and maybe Hawke) can choose to kill them, and it's so easily ignored. You have no evidence to support anything else If you want to whine about bad-faith arguments, talk to yourself. Your hatred of Andraste warps anything you say and do, perhaps its due to some deep-seeded personal opinion, desperate for applicability to a group you hate.
Uhm... how about... actually addressing the argument instead moving the goalposts and then writing parapraphs-long screeds attacking other users? How can you "win" an argument you don't address?
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Post by phoray on Sept 4, 2021 15:14:42 GMT
Uhm... how about... actually addressing the actual OP of the thread. Fixed that for you. I really want an origin where one could imagine they struggled for something. Community Leader/Mayor of small village sounds meh, unless your village just got overrun by Qunari and you have a bone to pick with the Magesterium. But even then, you are a member of a system I want to flip, so it's still kinda lame.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 4, 2021 15:26:13 GMT
Uhm... how about... actually addressing the actual OP of the thread. Fixed that for you. I really want an origin where one could imagine they struggled for something. Community Leader/Mayor of small village sounds meh, unless your village just got overrun by Qunari and you have a bone to pick with the Magesterium. But even then, you are a member of a system I want to flip, so it's still kinda lame. Why are we flipping a system, though? I'm seriously not interested in solving everyone's problems by conquering other people until other folks listen to me. Not to mention it would be a struggle enough to be a community leader in an ancient bureaucracy where the halls of power are ages away. Bandits, violent Dalish, and who knows how many others could be around. There's also a lot you could do with dwarves, say exiling from the Ambassadoria due to bureaucratic nonsense from a higher caste.
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Post by phoray on Sept 4, 2021 15:39:35 GMT
Why are we flipping a system, though I feel like we simply reinforced the Status Quo in DAI. Mage vs Templars ended up with the same system, new coat of paint. New Divine had the same morals as the old divine. The Orlais decision, whether you went with Celene or Celene-Briala is literally keeping the same ruler in power
while Gaspard as a choice is ignored. Whether the Grey Wardens were exiled or not is irrelevant, and most people opted to keep them- since they were already present, that's litterally choosing to keep things the same. Then the Inquisition was neutered/disbanded. So we played an entire game where no changes were made, even if the path along the way was fun. I suppose the Inquisition was declared an organization to Restore Order so it's not like they didn't warn us that we are essentially returning the world to the state before the Breach, not remaking it to our preferences. DA2 is very much such a chaotic mess that any attempts to do anything is simply staving off the inherent entropy found there. Nothing changes although we affected some individual lives and enjoyed our time there. DAO is about scrambling an army together to defeat the Archdemon. So flipping the system would truly be a new thing for Bioware to approach. and a lot of fans think DA4 will be the last in the series before we perhaps leave Thedas altogether for lands abroad. Let's shake Thedas before we leave, and feel like we really left our stamp on the continent. There's also a lot you could do with dwarves, say exiling from the Ambassadoria due to bureaucratic nonsense from a higher caste. That would at least introduce us to a portion of Thedas we haven't encountered before, so sure, I'll take it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 4, 2021 16:36:01 GMT
So flipping the system would truly be a new thing for Bioware to approach. and a lot of fans think DA4 will be the last in the series before we perhaps leave Thedas altogether for lands abroad. Let's shake Thedas before we leave, and feel like we really left our stamp on the continent. I agree with you here. In DAO, after saving the country from the Blight, any boons we received were either not noticeable on the surface (dwarf) or largely rendered null and void by the time we returned to Ferelden in DAI. In fact, if you have the right people with you in DA2 when you meet Alistair, you discover this to be the case in DA2. Hawke rose from humble beginnings to reclaim their birthright, only to have it effectively snatched away in the epilogue to DA2. I suppose you could say their lasting contribution was to set the scene for Varric to be made Viscount. Then in DAI, even if you get Leliana as Divine, there are strong hints in the epilogue to Trespasser that things are gradually going to back to a similar sort of reformed status quo as we get with Cassandra, thanks to the power and influence of Vivienne. The problem about letting us do something world changing is that it would need to be something everyone wishes to get on board with. Otherwise, we are going to have the same problem all over again of accommodating individual choices that ultimately mean the universe has to remain fairly static.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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SirSourpuss
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Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 4, 2021 16:39:40 GMT
The problem about letting us do something world changing is that it would need to be something everyone wishes to get on board with. Otherwise, we are going to have the same problem all over again of accommodating individual choices that ultimately mean the universe has to remain fairly static. The problem with that is that, writing away the choice, also nulls the choice. Which just begs the question, why have the choice in the first place? You put an illusion of one, with all the negatives and none of the positives.
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duskwanderer
Awesome
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Mar 12, 2017 22:45:38 GMT
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duskwanderer
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 4, 2021 16:52:32 GMT
Why are we flipping a system, though I feel like we simply reinforced the Status Quo in DAI. Mage vs Templars ended up with the same system, new coat of paint. New Divine had the same morals as the old divine. The Orlais decision, whether you went with Celene or Celene-Briala is literally keeping the same ruler in power
while Gaspard as a choice is ignored. Whether the Grey Wardens were exiled or not is irrelevant, and most people opted to keep them- since they were already present, that's litterally choosing to keep things the same. Then the Inquisition was neutered/disbanded. So we played an entire game where no changes were made, even if the path along the way was fun. I suppose the Inquisition was declared an organization to Restore Order so it's not like they didn't warn us that we are essentially returning the world to the state before the Breach, not remaking it to our preferences. DA2 is very much such a chaotic mess that any attempts to do anything is simply staving off the inherent entropy found there. Nothing changes although we affected some individual lives and enjoyed our time there. DAO is about scrambling an army together to defeat the Archdemon. So flipping the system would truly be a new thing for Bioware to approach. and a lot of fans think DA4 will be the last in the series before we perhaps leave Thedas altogether for lands abroad. Let's shake Thedas before we leave, and feel like we really left our stamp on the continent. There's also a lot you could do with dwarves, say exiling from the Ambassadoria due to bureaucratic nonsense from a higher caste. That would at least introduce us to a portion of Thedas we haven't encountered before, so sure, I'll take it. Leliana has very different morals from Justinia. As does Vivienne, for that matter. Plus, we saw differences come about at the very end of the game. We really don't know the full ramifications: Things like that aren't instant. Rome wasn't built in a day, yada yada. Since I put Gaspard on the throne (I'd have liked to have Briala assist, but running on blackmail never works and plus, she assassinated lots of innocents to prolong a war), I'm not sure how it's putting the exact same person in power. One of the conversations Vivienne has with Blackwall states that it's incredibly naive to believe you're changing everything forever as just one person. And that's very true. Countries don't remake themselves easily, save total destruction.
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Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 4, 2021 16:53:31 GMT
Uhm... how about... actually addressing the actual OP of the thread. Fixed that for you. I really want an origin where one could imagine they struggled for something. Community Leader/Mayor of small village sounds meh, unless your village just got overrun by Qunari and you have a bone to pick with the Magesterium. But even then, you are a member of a system I want to flip, so it's still kinda lame. Eh, did that ship sail before or after the anti-Anders hater brigade collectively jumped in to started (another) righteous circlejerk battle which then denegerated into dishonest trolling and name-calling? ... But yeah, I kinda found the supposed conflict of DAI to be lacking, as I'm simply not engaged by saving/restoring the privileges of a theocracy as it tears itself apart as a result of one of their instances of long-standing abuse and idiocy, apart from its unattractive underlying teachings. And if I'm going to play an evil imperialist bastard, I'd prefer a genuine somewhat foreign but honest one I guess, not some pseudo-Christianity with (self-)righteous holy knight stereotypes someone want to sell me as uwu. Like, give me either Star Wars' Galactic Empire (genuinely Nazi-inspired) or the Thalmor from TES. Even "evil" Tevinter could work.
What I actually dread is being given some sort of underdog struggle which is then both-sides-isted or status-quo'd off or having the underdog being harped and gaslighted at how they are supposedly are "too angry" or something. I suppose you could say their lasting contribution was to set the scene for Varric to be made Viscount. If you put it that way... well, I'm reminded of a comment someone made about Varric being the true protag of DA. Over multiple games even. NPC Shepard? Then in DAI, even if you get Leliana as Divine, there are strong hints in the epilogue to Trespasser that things will are gradually going to back to a similar sort of reformed status quo as we get with Cassandra, thanks to the power and influence of Vivienne. As far as the magic issues go. And while there's lots of talk about equality for believers under Leliana, there's no mention about her revoking the ever-present conversion urge. As long as this is not adressed, there is no "uwu" in Chantry and Andrastianism, sorry.
The problem about letting us do something world changing is that it would need to be something everyone wishes to get on board with. Otherwise, we are going to have the same problem all over again of accommodating individual choices that ultimately mean the universe has to remain fairly static. I suppose they essentially wrote themselves into a corner back in DA2 already? I don't quite see how this could be salvageable before it turns into a similar problem as Mass Effect once we reach the supposed ending of the plotline. Switching locations for a while might work, but as long as the stakes keep rising or don't go down it will keep coming back and close of more and more options (Want to mention the Divine post DAI? Will have to keep it vague or accomodate all potential options, including those for the other candidates). Perhaps tuning to a bunch of short(er) stories with very localised focus and characters which aren't meant or destined to do great? That could go against the power fantasy aspect however.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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26,120
phoray
Gotta be kiddin me
13,303
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by phoray on Sept 4, 2021 16:58:30 GMT
Supporting my point that we need a real revolution. Destroy the magisterium, push off the Qunari, and establish a new order/political and economic system in Tevinter. Destroy Tevinter Culture, raze it, remake it anew. Give 3+ real endings that won't be immediately cancelled out with writing. Assume it's the last game, like they assumed Origins would be the last game.
If there is a DA5, again change to location so drastically it doesn't make us have to water down DA4 outcomes.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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31,186
gervaise21
13,101
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 4, 2021 17:06:46 GMT
Leliana has very different morals from Justinia. As does Vivienne, for that matter. Plus, we saw differences come about at the very end of the game. We really don't know the full ramifications: Things like that aren't instant. Rome wasn't built in a day, yada yada. Reading between the lines in the epilogue to Trespasser, it is clear that the most powerful mage faction is Vivienne and her loyalists, whether she is Divine or not, and the reforms under Leliana are very much dependent on her being in office to maintain them. Even if assassination attempts were unsuccessful, she'd can't live forever. So, whilst I would like to be proven wrong, even if they keep the distinction next game in the Codices, I think long term it will be back to the old system of Circles policed by the Templars. One of the conversations Vivienne has with Blackwall states that it's incredibly naive to believe you're changing everything forever as just one person. And that's very true. Countries don't remake themselves easily, save total destruction. Solas says a similar thing to an elven Inquisitor who accuses him of not doing enough for the elves. Even the Inquisitor hasn't the power to upend the entire social order and return the Dales to the elves. Briala might end up with lands and a title but that is about as far as it can go. In fact I fully expect her to lose even that once she no longer has the backing of the Inquisition. So, whatever we think we are accomplishing next game as a side effect or reward of dealing with the threat from Solas, I fully expect that it will only be short-lived.
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