Mystery and Night - The last two Old Gods, the last remaining sealed Evanuris.

I was watching Saria's take on the latest offering today. She seems convinced now that the Old Gods are the Evanuris, minus Mythal and Solas. I'm still not entirely convinced about that. However, she did draw attention to the parallel that was drawn in the star constellations between Old Gods and elven gods. She noted that Tenebrium was associated with both Lusacan and Falon'Din, whilst Eluvia was linked to Razikale as is known as Sacrifice, which she pointed out is something associated with Andruil. Thus she feels the two gods yet to arise are Razikale/Andruil (bow head in Solas' painting) and Lusacan/Falon'Din (horn head and stylised wings). She also pointed out they are the only two that Morrigan/Solas discussed in the Temple of Mythal, their shrines were located together outside of the inner sanctum and they were both humbled by Mythal, which would make them the ones most likely to bear a grudge against her. I'm not entirely sure about the identification of Razikale as Andruil or bow head in the picture, although in the other concept art the insectoid, bow headed god does have a golden spear, which is referred to in her codex. I've thought the other could be Falon'Din, so if the Old Gods are the Evanuris, then I'm happy to go with Lusacan/Falon'Din as his other picture.

Both are also associated with Blight/plague. Andruil is said to have brought back the plague when she returned from the Void, whilst Corypheus calls the taint they discovered in the Black City, the darkness which permeated their being, so Darkness is equivalent to the Blight, something that apparently Falon'Din was unafraid of, either because he was crazy or was immune, maybe a bit of both, since even if he didn't become sick with it, it could still have affected him mentally.

Unfortunately, it does seem to be pointing towards them being one or the other. However, certain things really don't add up if they are meant to be the Creators, or the split soul of the individual gods with a dragon host (as with Cory). The Forgotten Ones would be more interesting as we know so little about them. Then again, look at the Avvar. Their pantheon had some similarities with other gods but it turned out Hakkon was unique to them and simply a powerful spirit in dragon form, so there is still hope for the Old Gods, who may just be victims of the Blight rather than a cause of it.

However, I don't think there is much doubt now that the Golden/Black City is connected with the Evanuris and the Blight as well. Also, why was Flemeth interested in the fate of Urthemiel if there is no connection to Mythal?

It depends on whether or not you think the Evanuris and the Old Gods are one and the same, and thus those two figures depict the two Old Gods who have yet to be liberated from the Deep Roads. If you think they are, then I think Saria's reasons for linking them to Andruil and Falon'Din make a lot of sense. However, if we ignore the last two Old Gods, then they could just as easily be Ghilan'nain and Dirthamen. Alternatively, they need not be Creators at all but his co-conspirators in the rebellion, otherwise known as the Forgotten Ones.

Another possibility is that they represent the two leaders of "Those Across the Sea" for whom the Executors work. We know they are hunting for Solas and that he regards them as dangerous. If they aren't their leaders, they still could be something the Executors have a connection with. Bow-head certainly has vibes of the sea about her and seems connected to the concept art of a sea monster. Even if not Ghilan'nain herself, she could well be one of her creations that was "too well wrought" to destroy, plus Pride stayed her hand, which seems to suggest a link to Solas.

I mentioned on another thread that perhaps the clue is in the figure they are above.   So bow-head connects with red lyrium or the idol and horn-head with the orb or the Fade.   As red lyrium and Corypheus were infected with the Blight, perhaps that is the connection, although that would seem to point back to the last two Old Gods.

I don't think Tyrdda was actually one of the gods but she was a "Spirit Bride". I think this means her relationship with the Lady of the Skies was akin to that of Andraste and the Maker. Both required an earthly husband in order to continue their line and in fact I think Andraste likely was descended from Tyrdda. Her father was Alamarri but the Avvar were an offshoot of this group and I dare say intermarriage still occurred from time to time. Also, whilst Andraste's mother was said to be Cirianne, it is possible this was on her grand-father's side and her mother could have been of Avvar descent. She certainly possessed a very interesting sword in Glandivalis that was passed to her daughter and from her to Shartan.

Of course, it is possible that they were possessed by the spirit but I think in these two cases the spirit concerned opted not to do so but simply influenced them through their dreams. Both were likely Dreamer mages but definitely the Augur of their respective tribes. I actually think that Flemeth was likely descended from the same line, through Viviel, the daughter of Andraste who married a Tevinter mage, and onwards through her daughters. By that point, the spirit had decided that it was now strong enough to venture an actual co-habitation. In other words, Mythal was the Lady of the Skies and the Maker, gently nudging history along the path she wanted it to take.

Note, this doesn't disprove the Maker as such, if we are talking first cause in the universe, it merely alters the perspective on the identity of the spirit that was communicating with Andraste. This spirit claimed to have created the Golden City, which would be absolutely true if the city was in fact Arlathan, the Eternal City of the elven gods, as Mythal was renowned for the creation of cities. She established elven civilisation, the model for which was later adopted by Tevinter and her ally, Solas, created the Veil, possibly using magic he learned from Mythal, and thus effectively the modern world that Andraste occupied. Thus, it was perfectly true that the spirit who spoke to Andraste was "Maker" of her world. It would also mean that the spirit could have observed the Magisters breaking into the Golden City and causing the corruption to be released, which brought "doom upon the world".

From that point on Mythal was no longer focused on simply returning herself but in saving the world she had created from the Blight. I think the key to this does lie in Tevinter. That was why the spirit urged Andraste to embark on her Exalted March against the Imperium and why Andraste was not content with simply driving them out of the south. Minrathous was the goal and she would not stop until it was taken. It is possible that Mythal had possessed Andraste by this point, which is why she was so committed to that aim. Certainly, the wife of Hessarian seemed to suspect some involvement of a spirit and perhaps feared a resurrection along the lines of Wynne, which is why she insisted on burning Andraste, so there was no body left to revive and people would instantly know if a spirit tried to replicate it.

A further clue to this connnection between Andraste and Mythal is found in WoT2, with the scholarly theory that the Canticle of Shartan contained elements of an earlier elven folktale of a "tricker warrior who fought against tyrants". That was obviously a nod at Fen'Harel and who was he allied with? Mythal. They united in order to free their people, which Solas claims was his motivation and was also that of Andraste and Shartan.

If Mythal was the Maker who spoke to Andraste, then it is likely she did also speak to Drakon and provide him with his prophesy. In which case, he predicts that when the seven gates of the Black City are shattered, darkness will cover both the Unchanging World and the Fade, as the corruption within is wholly released and fire will engulf the world. (When the Veil is removed perhaps?) However, this will ultimately be overcome by the Light, victory finally achieved when she stands within the gates of Minrathous. So, it would appear that everything points to Minrathous as being the key to saving the world, which is good because apparently that is where we are headed.

Also, brings me back to my original hypothesis that Lady of the Skies = Razikale = Mythal.    All have a strong connection with the Frostback Mountains in the south.

When do they ever stick to the rules they created for themselves at the beginning of the series? Back then magic had limitations and everyday tasks could not be achieved by magic. Since then they have introduced time travel, spirits doing menial tasks on behalf of mages (Tevinter Nights) and the Veil as a construct of magic, rather than an integral part of the nature of the world. Back then, the Dalish cherished every mage child as an indication that they were recovering their culture, since they correctly maintained the original elves were magical. Since then we have been told they can't cope with more than 3 mages per clan and the surplus are simply abandoned in the wilderness or, if old enough, told to leave and experience the world. Back then the Qunari were a culture based on organisation and discipline, strictly enforced by the priesthood and their secret police. Now apparently it is a chaotic mess with the Antaam running out of control and ignoring the leadership on Par Vollen with impunity.

So, if they choose to go with something along the lines I have set out above, they will and we will just have to deal with it. I will admit that DG said around the time we were first introduced to Tyrdda that it had nothing to do with later events or characters. However, I can't remember his precise words so he could have been hedging. Also, he and most of the other original creators of the game are no longer with Bioware, so even if they didn't plan on going down this path, others may think differently. Nevertheless, he was at the helm when they introduced time travel and the Dalish nonsense, so.....

Not necessarily. The Maker could still exist, just not be the being that spoke to Andraste. At present, I don't think they would ever be that explicit about the Maker/Mythal. They just throw out these details and leave us to join the dots but they will never confirm whether we are right or not. After all, it is in the past and we have to concentrate on the present. Knowing that Andraste's Maker was really Mythal doesn't really help our current predicament with Solas. We already know Flemeth/Mythal has been nudging events in the direction she wished down the years because she admitted as much.

However, you have to admit that it getting increasingly difficult to reconcile the Maker and world creation, as narrated by Andraste, with the revelations we have been getting from DAI onwards. It started with Corypheus maintaining he discovered an already dark city with an empty throne. Giselle explained this away for us as his mind being warped by evil. Then we discover the elven gods did exist and the world once had no Veil (Solas had hinted as much in the main game but confirmed it in Trespasser). I suppose we could explain this away as him lying to us. Now we have the trailer that seems to draw a direct link between the creation of the Veil that entrapped the gods and the corruption being enclosed in the Black City.

So, I ask you, where is the Maker in all this? Andraste maintained he abandoned the world after people forgot about him and started worshiping other gods. Although, he also imprisoned the demon pretenders for this. Also, surely not everyone followed their new religion? Actually, according to the Chant it would seem at least one group had no choice but to change their allegiance or face annihilation. The Chantry also maintain that the Maker abandoned the world again on the death of Andraste, which seems rather harsh considering there were plenty of her followers who still believed in him, and Shartan and his elves did attempt to rescue her, dying as a consequence. He always seemed something of an absentee landlord, complaining about not being paid his dues but never willing to do anything to improve the life of his tenants. However, given what the Evanuris seemed to be getting up to, whilst Solas maintains the majority of people were slaves to their whims, so no alternative but to follow their orders, why didn't the Maker act back then? To my mind, they don't have to explicitly deny the existence of the Maker for him not to exist in any tangible way in the current narrative.

I have to admit I prefer how it was dealt with in D&D Forgotten Realms, where AO was the Supreme Being, who generally left the running of the world to the lesser gods, who each had the own area of interest, but occasionally stepped in if things were getting out of hand or he felt the other gods weren't doing their duty. Strangely enough, there if you refused to believe in a god your ended up in the Wall of the Faithless. Now maybe that was punishing atheists too severely but at least you knew where you stood in terms of deities.

I much preferred it how it was in DAO or even DA2, where everyone had to take their gods on trust and nothing had been proven one way or the other. So, Sebastian could say to Merrill that perhaps they were both talking about the same thing, but no one had a definitive answer to that. Now, with all the revelations in DAI and its DLC, having faith in anything does seem a bit suspect, unless you want to stick your fingers in your ears and go "La, La, La" like Sera does in the face of the contradictions.

DG also did that short story with Dorian recalling his father's spirit from the dead to speak with him. That caused me to raise my eyebrows a bit because it made the afterlife a bit less mysterious after that. Before it always seemed more along the lines of what Averline says: "He's either with the Maker or he isn't", which seemed to fit with their "never going to prove or disprove the Maker" assertion. As you say, at least now we can believe that the souls of the dead go somewhere and not just dissipate in the ether. If they believed in the Maker in life, then the faithful can believe they go to his side on death. Certainly, her brother had to have come back from somewhere pleasant since he chose not to return to life.

I liked that too and made for a much more pleasant party dynamic if they were in it together. I could never understand people saying Sebastian was a religious bore when he was much more open to dialogue respectfully about differing beliefs than Anders was. He kept his cool in the face of antagonism much better than Anders too. He was also the one person who questioned Meredith calling the Annulment. "Why are we even debating this when the real culprit is sitting right there in front of us?" I do feel they rather rubbished his character in the War Table mission though, if you spared Anders. Why would he bring an army against Kirkwall when Hawke (and Anders) wasn't even there? Far more likely he would employ bounty hunters to track them down, like he did with his family. Still, at least if you executed Anders, he did help Kirkwall recover.   He was also respectful to Vaea in Knight Errant I seem to recall.

I mean; it could be that the "souls" we see in these occasions are simply Fade-Ghosts, after all it is in their nature to mimic others and events of the past even the ghost that seems to be the brother could just be a "fade-ghost" popped into existence by the ring.

In regards to the Old God topic and them possibly being the Evanuris, it was Gaider who stated that the Old Gods taught humans magic and urged them to destroy the elves. Why would elves do that, against their own people no less. What remained of Arlathan was destroyed and elves taken as slaves. If they managed to get free, they’d no longer have anything to rule over.

I know he isn’t the lead writer anymore but I prefer the giant holes he put in that theory (without denying it completely but still), until I find out otherwise.

Halliserre died young, so I doubt she had any offspring. Anyway, why couldn't Viviel have had more than one daughter? Andraste did  and of course, so did Flemeth (at least 4 I believe). So, even if one was selected to be the main heir to her powers, the bloodline could still have continued down another branch.