Mystery and Night - The last two Old Gods, the last remaining sealed Evanuris.

What? Suspect the man who has done nothing but lie to advance his own views and agendas? The man literally known as the God of Deception and everyone else throughout the franchise said to not trust in any way, shape, or form? Surely he’s a beacon of honesty.

Another thing to think about in regards to the Maker, in the alternate time line where Coryphaeus was unopposed, even when presumably his plan to enter the black city and sit upon it's throne is successful his big move is.....simply sending out demons like he was already getting ready to due via using the wardens as hosts.

If gaining the throne is what happened, than the maker is surprisingly limited.  He even still seemed to have some use for mages on top of that, presuming gaining the throne gave Cory power akin to the maker.

What is a good but a being who is worshipped by those beneath?

Being "The Forgotten Ones" might mean they were the ones worshipped as gods before the Evanuris came around but have been forgotten by the people.

Maybe the reason the Maker interacts so little with the real world is because it doesn't want its nature to change ala Spirits of Wisdom becoming demons of pride and so forth.

Its also interesting Solas seemed to talk about The Maker in a more philosophical sense unlike the other entities wandering around. The fact that even other "Gods" couldn't tell you if the Maker existed or not is kind of an interesting take.

One of the things I've thought about from time to time is if the Dalish gods are the actual Evanuris or just random spirits that helped them after the fall of their civilization and they tacked the names of their old gods onto them.

Mainly because the things that they taught and gave to the Dalish are for the most part, kind of ho-hum for the Evanuris.....I mean Sylaise teaching about some basic herb training and weaving ropes, could be any random Sylvan doing that. Andruil teaches them to hunt, June teaches them to make bows, arrows and knives....once again that's something any spirit that's been around could do. Ghilan'nain shows them how to domesticate halla and hook them up to a wagon.

Dirthamen, gave them the "secret of knowledge" feels like that could easily be translated as giving them the alphabet or teaching them how to write books.

With what we know of the general nature of the Evanuris, its' all fairly banal.

Considering the Dalish are a post-fall culture, I can definitely see some city elves wandering around in the woods with no idea how to survive and coming across random spirits or even just people who teach them some things to survive and then go on their way.

The Dalish then connect them to the old myths, despite there being no actual connection or even possibly not even being spiritual entities.

Yeah sorry, you're right about the Gelduran codex entry. But I think this is far weaker evidence than the testimony of Solas, since it remains unclear how literal Gelduran is speaking, and as an enemy of the Evanuris who very likely may have been a peer who was excluded from the elven pantheon/status of godhood has a far more obvious motivation to lie than Solas. But either way the point remains the same: we have plausible grounds to believe that the Evanuris were not gods, and that their rise to (false) godhood is more or less as Solas describes. 

I have to admit that I'm not anywhere near as familiar with the lore and codex entries on the Chantry and Avvar religion as I am the Elven religion and the old gods. I should do a bit of reading on those topics to get a more comprehensive and clear picture. But my impression of the Maker/Chantry is that its fairly vanilla, standard-fare monotheism: the Maker is a transcendent entity who, by their incredible power, intelligence, and agency/creativity, created and sustains the world that exists (which, in DA, includes the physical world, the Fade, and the Abyss)... supposing the Chantry's theology/claims about the Maker are true. Which is a very big "if", to put it mildly. But the DA writers are probably never going to confirm or disconfirm the existence/true nature of the Maker, so I guess all we can do is speculate. And its entirely possible I'm missing something (or more than one somethings) here.

Yeah I think a lot of these tensions and apparent contradictions just naturally cropped up the way the story and the lore evolved over time and over three games (often with changing personnel). Sort of just comes with the territory: some things are retconned, some things are changed for narrative or gameplay purposes, new writers want to make their own mark and may not share the same vision as other writers on past games, and so on. 

My suspicion is that with the Maker, there are (and will continue to be) elements of the lore and Chantry teachings that are called into question or even refuted by new revelations in the game- sort of like what happened with the Elvhen religion. But I suspect they will leave the question of the existence and true nature of the Maker open: we will know that certain things the Chantry teaches about the Maker (and/or Andraste, the old gods, the Magisters Sidereal, etc) are likely false, but not whether there is in fact a divine entity corresponding (at least roughly) to the Chantry's theology RE the Maker.

So if the Maker does exist, and if they are at least roughly like the Chantry depicts, then the Maker is a "true" god, in a significant sense (whereas the Evanuris are not)... but those are a couple major "ifs", and ones we're not likely to ever have answered.

Honestly even the people of Thedas don't seem to know, entities being gods or just powerful spirits pops up, if you ask the Cult of Andraste they worship a god and if you ask Sten, they worship a giant lizard.

The Chantry women specifically refers to the Arch Demon and the Olds gods as "false gods" in denerim in DAO.

Solas says the Evanuris weren't gods, but the modern day elves do.

To also counter that, Flemeth says "the people bend their knee too quickly" more or less.

I also believe the last two old gods tie to the Evanuris. Though I believe bioware are doing a shock twist and June is the most dangerous Evanuris.

I think the best way to match all Evanuris to old gods, is by matching both up to a demon, as both the Evanuris and the old gods match up to a type of demon.

Mythal desire demon/ mother of vengance
Elgnarn rage demon/toth
Falon'din hunger demon/urthemeil
Dirthamen fear demon/lusacan
Andruil despair demon/ Andoral
Ghilan'nain envy demon/ zazikel
Sylaise sloth demon/ Razikale
June pride demon/ Dumat
Solas Valor spirit (not pride a name he took to give pride to the slaves he was trying to free)/ dreadwolf.


Desire: Mythal(protector all mother goddess of love).
Flemeth mother of vengance (vengance is a desire for revenge). In every game you meet Mythal she gives you a choice to make flemeth even describes mythal as giving her a choice. She also states in Inquistion that morrigan has always had the choice about being mythals host. Also at her temple she is always the voice of reason and aducator for the elvhen she makes judgement and soothes elgnarns rage.

Rage: Elgnarn (the elvhen god of vengance and sun).
Toth (the dragon of fire)
Is pretty on the nose I'm not saying Elgnarn is weak. He is all rage the description of Mythal always calming him makes him far more likely to be rage and not pride.

Hunger: Falon'din (the elvhen god of death and fortune).
Uthemeil (the dragon of beauty)
I do not believe they sing songs about Falon'Din's vanity. It is said Falon'Din's appetite for adulation was so great, he began wars to amass more worshippers. The blood of those who wouldn't bow low filled lakes as wide as oceans. Mythal rallied the gods, once the shadow of Falon'Din's hunger stretched across her own people. It was almost too late. Falon'Din only surrendered when his brethren bloodied him. Solas said this about him in temple mythal, he mentions his appetite for adulation.
In ancient times, the Feast of Urthemiel was the grandest celebration of the year. The event lasted twelve days. The Old God of Beauty was worshiped primarily by musicians, artists, and poets.
Comparing what solas said to this description of Uthemeils celebration you can see the need for adulation.

Fear: Dirthamen (is the elven god of secrets and knowledge, and master of the ravens Fear and Deceit.)
Lusacan (Lusacan, the Dragon of Night, calls to you. He lives where it is darkest and waits for the day he will rise. Drink of his blood and know the power in darkness: either fear the Night or wield it.)
So Dirthamen has two ravens fear and deceit. We also have the fact in his temple his priests talk about him taking memories from them, just like the fear demon did to Inquisitor in the fade. I will compare that to Lusacan fear the night or wield it.

Despair: Andruil (elven god sacrifice)
Andoral (the dragon of slaves)
(Andruil, blood and force, your people pray to you. Grant that your eye may not fall upon us. Spare us the moment we become Your prey.)
(Andruil, blood and force, save us from the time this weapon is thrown. Your people pray to You. Spare us the moment we become Your sacrifice.)
OK compare these statements about Andruil to Andoral being god of slaves and chains. Solas also mentions that she I'd described as goddess of hare reference to a god of sacrifice.

Envy:Ghilan'nain (goddess od guides and navigation)
Zazikel (the old god of freedom)

The hunter swore he would find Ghilan'nain and repay her for what she had done to him. He blinded her first, and then bound her as one would bind a kill fresh from the hunt. But because he was cursed, the hunter could not kill her. Instead he left her for dead in the forest. And Ghilan'nain prayed to the gods for help. Andruil sent her hares to Ghilan'nain and they chewed through the ropes that bound her, but Ghilan'nain was still wounded and blind, and could not find her way home. So Andruil turned her into a beautiful white deer—the first halla.
That was a story dalish tell, sounds like a god of freedom, but to match her to envy you have to look at those disgusting items she created in Tresspasser dlc.
The eye that weeps description (This amulet is heavy for its size, and the metal is clammy and sticks jealously to the flesh.)
All of these disgusting Artifacts are hinted at being made by Ghilan'nain and these lines tie her to envy demon.

Sloth: Sylaise
Razikale (The god of mystery)
In her youth, Sylaise stayed at the home-tree to sing and make art.
It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope.
This is a dalish legend I take this to man she taught them revealed mystery to them all the Evanuris were powerful this idbyhe dalish version they are trying to show what she represents a teacher. Now compare that dalish legend to this about Razikale.
To She Who Winds the Skein of Wisdom, we dedicate this citadel.
Dragon of Mystery, bestow upon your faithful servants your ineffable truth.
Grant us eyes to pierce the darkness and souls to bear the wounds of your labyrinth.

Skein a length of thread loosely coiled or knotted. It is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope. There is no coincidence in any of these descriptions they are carefully written by bioware.

Pride: June
Dumat (In silence is the beating heart of wisdom)
The Dalish tell that before Sylaise and June came to them, the elves wandered the forests without purpose, eating only the berries and nuts they could find and shivering naked through cold nights. June taught the elves to make all needful thing.
Now that means he created the Eluvians their pocket deminsons he created theirs way of life.
Thousands of elves channeled raw essence from the Fade into a sphere in the air to create the Grand Sonallium. It was a gift from Blessed Sylaise to Clever June as thanks for a great favor
He is described as clever June always or having wisdom as is Dumat. Dumats priests are sworn to silence, and dumats slogan is there is wisdom in silence. We know little of June and his machinations because he has wisdom.

Look upon the Temple of Dumat
God of Silence, who speaks to the faithful in dreams
No words of desire may sway His will
No cry of valor may stand against Him
For His Silence conquers all
And His Secrets are shared only with the worthy
Look upon the Temple of Dumat
And fear Him.

No words of desire (mythal) may sway his will
No cry of valor (solas) may stand against him
For his silence conquers all

On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand.
He stopped Ghilan'nain destroying darkspawn.

Valor: solas
It is pointed out in elven deep road mine the dread wolf statue is in a guard position no a position of reverence. Also in temple of mythal his statue is outside he is guarding Mythal always. He is always a fighter and rebel spirits of valor will fight for what they believe is right he avenged mythal and rebelled freeing the slaves. In his dialogue with Blackwall he gets on like a fellow soldier that understands war but is disgusted by Blackwall dark past because he is a valor spirt.
Sorry if this is too long if you made it to the end thanks for reading.

I prefer to say that I wish the writers hadn't put those words in Lavellan's mouth, since there is an awful lot they got right about the ancient times. They remembered the Creators, which is quite possibly how the worshipers of the Evanuris knew them since they were responsible for creating the elven empire, and that there were originally seven, with Ghilan'nain added to their number later and Fen'Harel as someone trusted (by Mythal at least) but never really one of them. They remember them as being at war when they were shut away, which was true. They remembered that Fen'Harel was responsible for the loss of the gods, which was also true. Merrill also recounts the detail of how the leaders of both sides in the war were enticed into his trap, by giving them the location of a weapon which would win the war, which may well turn out to be true.

I've always maintained the pro-Evanuris account of the Dalish may have been because they were largely the descendants of the elves captured from Arlathan Forest by Tevinter and we know this area was dedicated to Andruil. Hence the Way of Three Trees being the main influence on their way of conducting themselves. Any memories retained among their descendants would obviously be slanted in favour of the Evanuris and it is possible that they never knew of Mythal's death because it was either hidden from them by the priesthood or occurred so late on in proceedings that they didn't hear of it.

There is also the degree of amnesia that seems to have affected all the races, since the dwarves seem to remember nothing of the Titans or their interaction with the elves (although it is possible there is something in the Memories in Kal'Sharok) and the humans very little from the time pre-Veil. The Avvar do seem to have witnessed its creation, as they have a legend about the home of the gods being lifted up into the sky so it could no longer be reached by mortals, but very little before the Veil beyond that or the fact that reality itself was affected by its creation. This has led me to believe the Veil actually had some way of repressing memory in mortals, either deliberately or accidentally. By contrast, I think there are ancient spirits that do remember, just as the spirits did in the Vir'Dirthara, but you have to find them first and then find a way to persuade them to divulge what they know. It is possible that they would be reluctant to do so because of the fear of Fen'Harel in his Fade form or because they support him.

I am more inclined to believe that originally the Creators were nature spirits. Elgar'nan has been associated with the sun and lightning; Mythal with water and birth; Sylaise with fire; Falon'Din with the Fade/Air; Andruil with forests, creatures and hunting. That would leave Dirthamen possibly the wind, whispering secrets from the Fade (which would connect him with Falon'Din) and June as a spirit of creation, since it is even said by the Dalish that he created himself. As they embodied nature they could be either benign or fierce according to the situation, just as the Lady of the Forest was in DAO, who told us she was not called out of the Fade but the earth itself. Later these spirits became warped by their time as leaders against the Titans, so they became gradually more and more focused on their destructive side and demanding of worship.

That's a really good take, I like comparing them to the lady of the forest. I was doing my best to take first hand information such as solas temple of mythal and Tresspasser as truth. Then try to see how it matched up to dalish legends. Solas contradicts alot of the orginal description he describes Andruil as a goddess of sacrifice. There is also a prayer in temple of mythal about her, were they are praying Andruil doesn't sacrifice them.
Though even if you look at Ghilan'nain dalish legend is about her escaping a trap. That would seem to be closest to Razikale god of freedom. Also her items she made in Tresspasser were envious to the touch, plus if you imagine that is the story that she put out to her followers doesn't she sound really envious and insecure.
I could go into every one from Mythals actions. Or the idea of Andruil being a despair demon, if you look at that particular demon they show up in alienages places of no hope, that makes me think of Andruil being a goddess of sacrifice.

This is why I suggested they changed over time as they became more corrupt. Andruil may have started out as a guardian of the natural world and a patron of the hunt as a part of the cycle of life, having respect for the creatures you hunt, which is basically what is found in the Way of Three Trees. However, somewhere along the line she became obsessed with hunting (which would be in keeping with the nature of a spirit) and probably started hunting ordinary elves as some sort of ritual of worship, hence becoming known as the goddess of sacrifice. May be it even started out as a test of the ability to survive in the wild and avoid the hunters (rather as Strife had to in TN) as a sort of rite of passage that then took on a more sinister turn over time. There is also a reference in the codex in the Temple of Mythal to support this idea of her obsession: "One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts." I've often wondered about this on the boards. Were mortal men the elves that were not the gods or their chosen or was this referring to humans? Also, it would seem that Ghilan'nain's monsters were likely created to impress Andruil and give her something new to hunt, possibly even done on her orders, which is why it was left to Andruil to sort out the mess that this caused, which she did by doing a deal to elevate Ghilan'nain to godhood. Finally, her obsession with hunting took her into the Void, with adverse consequences on her return each time and increasing spells of madness, leading the other gods to fearful she would end up hunting them, which is when Mythal took it upon herself to intervene, luring Andruil to her with the rumour of a monster she could hunt and defeat.

So, it seems to me that Andruil's prime motivation was that of a hunter, although I have no doubt that the despair of her victims would have encouraged such demons to congregate in the area of their death.