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Post by Absafraginlootly on Apr 28, 2023 1:29:16 GMT
I also believe the last two old gods tie to the Evanuris. Though I believe bioware are doing a shock twist and June is the most dangerous Evanuris. I think the best way to match all Evanuris to old gods, is by matching both up to a demon, as both the Evanuris and the old gods match up to a type of demon. Mythal desire demon/ mother of vengance Elgnarn rage demon/toth Falon'din hunger demon/urthemeil Dirthamen fear demon/lusacan Andruil despair demon/ Andoral Ghilan'nain envy demon/ zazikel Sylaise sloth demon/ Razikale June pride demon/ Dumat Solas Valor spirit (not pride a name he took to give pride to the slaves he was trying to free)/ dreadwolf. I like thinking about evanuris/spirit match ups but given what Solas himself tells about demons being spirits with a corrupted purpose I like to think about both their original "pure" purpose and their corrupted "demon" version. So Solas, whose name means pride (and dear lord is he with his 'i get to change the nature of the whole world without consulting anyone... Twice' bullshit) but who seems to prefer to dispense wisdom and approves of those who seek it, obviously seems like a wisdom spirit > pride demon just like his friend in his companion quest. And the Elven ruins both at her temple and in the crossroads pretty thoroughly depict Mythal as a goddess of justice/vengeance. This combined with her desire for vengeance against the others makes me put her in the Justice spirit > Vengeance demon category, like Justice in dao:a/da2. So if Fen'harel = Wisdom > Pride and Mythal = Justice > vengeance Then for the remaining Evanuris I'd guess: Dirthamon = Knowledge > Fear Sylaise = Love > Envy Andruil = Perseverance > Hunger Ghilan'nain = Curiosity > Obsession Elgar'nan = Valour > Rage Falon'din = Command > Oppression June = Creativity? > Sloth? Obviously I agree with you about Dirthamin god of secrets being Fear, and I think his uncorrupted self is knowledge. What is secrecy if not knowledge concealed? What does secrecy create if not the Fear of discovery and the Fear of what others are hiding? Just look at how terrified/paranoid his followers were in the temple of Dirthamin during their last days. But for Sylaise Envy was my first thought because of that whole 'everything they can do, she can do better' inscription in the temple of Mythal which absolutely stinks of jealousy: dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Song_to_SylaiseBut we don't know what envy demons are a corruption of: Admiration? Compassion? Love? If one of the latter two then that would give the dalish perception of her as a goddess of healing and childbirth a source. For Andruil goddess of the hunt whose followers prayed not to be the hunted - a hunter who over hunts, who hunts people instead of animals, who'll hunt no matter what even in the dangers of the void. She evokes hunger demons the most to me. The insatiable consumers. The guys who make cannibals, vampires, and werewolves. Like the one who possessed a starving man in Tevinter Nights and twisted his need into an insatiable greedy hunger. I've thought about, and dismissed, various potential purposes that hunger could be a corruption of. Not Moderation, Satiation, or Generosity, demons don't seem to be complete opposites of their spirit versions per se. And Need isn't really a purpose/virture/concept so much as it's just a fact, so it doesn't feel quite right either. And i thought of a Survival spirit giving people what they need without giving them unending hunger like the demon does... But it looks a bit out of place with the other spirit purposes. Then i was like oh what people struggling to survive are exhibiting - what the subsistence farmer and the fisherman entirely reliant on the catch is showing - is a type of Perseverance. A spirit we already know exists from the Next One short story. Alternately we may be looking at Sacrifice not as another word for her demonic form sacrificing Elven lives to her glory or entertainment - but instead in it's positive form, a parent going hungry to feed their child, sacrificing your own dreams or life to help another, a hunter who thanks every animal they kill for their sacrifice and is sure not to waste a single piece. Ghilan'nain's mural, probable trespasser notes about her experiments, and her lab in Tevinter Nights, all paint a picture of the mad scientist to me. Someone whose so obsessed with their work that the human cost does not matter. Uncorrupted this may be simple curiosity, or perhaps Purpose since I think Solas makes the connection between a spirit of purpose and a demon of desire, and Obsession might just be a type of Desire demon. I'm inclined to agree that Elgar'nan does come off as more raging/anger/smashy smashy then he does an actual spirit/demon of vengeance. But then I had to think about what his spirit purpose would be, the only example we have is Audric who is curiosity/anger but a ) he's a complex spirit/greater dead who has all his human memories, so not a normal spirit. On the otherhand maybe what he is is closer to what the evanuris is then a normal spirit? And b ) nothing about Elgar'nan has screamed curiosity to me, it would be a fascinating development if it did turn out to be so, but so far got nothing to support it. What we do know about him is that he was the leader, and that he was a general in one or more great wars for the Elven people. Now that works just as well for Command as it does for Valour. And the leader of the gods being a spirit of command does sound good, although command doesn't sound very emotional, he could be angry people aren't doing what he said anymore i guess? The Command Spirit in DAI was annoyed the physical world wouldn't follow it's commands so maybe it would have become a rage demon if you hadn't helped it? Maybe? A Valour spirit being an inspiring leader through its great displays of courage, becoming corrupted by it rage and hatred towards it's enemies feels more engaging and less petty, but whose to say Bioware doesn't want him to be petty? Either Valour or Command could work but there's another Evanuris who we know was obsessed with gaining more followers/worshippers under his command. I'm talking of course of Falon'din, good catch on the use of "hunger" and "appetite" by the way, my brain skipped on by and zeroed in on "vanity", "adulation", and "amassing more worshippers" instead. Vanity having do with how we want others to think of us (in this case with adulation and worship) makes me think more of envy, pride or desire then hunger, though obviously the fact that I'm coming at this from an angle of "what would their uncorrupted spirit self also be" influences my thinking there since none of my thoughts on hungers corrupted purpose particularly really vibe with Falon'din. Anyways, I don't think it would be stretch to describe almost any command spirit as vain given it seems to come with an inherent desire to be regarded as your commander who you will of course follow the command of. And given dai's Command spirits stubborn refusal to go back to the fade until something follows one of its commands (incidentally one of the other things Solas said about Falon'din is "most tales paint Falon'din's stubbornness second only to his self regard."), it would follow to me that a more powerful command spirit would want that on a larger scale. And that when corrupted it would want to expand its influence and be willing to invade, slaughter, & oppress to achieve that. I'd guess as an demon of Oppression/Tyranny - but desire, envy, and pride might work as a corrupted command spirit wanting more followers too. June is basically a complete guess since we know bugger all about him. The dalish call him the god of crafts, and his temple of Mythal mosaic had an anvil while Sylaise's 'anything they can do i can do better' song said her "skill rivals June's craft". So he makes something. Obvious guess is spirit of creativity, which supposedly doesn't exist because spirits aren't supposed to have creativity, though i think the whole Pantheon breaks that rule, ditto Cole and Audric. Ultimately he could be anything, though prominent demons that I haven't covered with another Evanuris yet are sloth and despair. So... Creativity>Sloth as metaphor for writers block? We know so little about them all that I wouldn't be surprised if these guesses all turned out to be wrong but it's fun to speculate.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 28, 2023 4:18:09 GMT
I also believe the last two old gods tie to the Evanuris. Though I believe bioware are doing a shock twist and June is the most dangerous Evanuris. I think the best way to match all Evanuris to old gods, is by matching both up to a demon, as both the Evanuris and the old gods match up to a type of demon. Mythal desire demon/ mother of vengance Elgnarn rage demon/toth Falon'din hunger demon/urthemeil Dirthamen fear demon/lusacan Andruil despair demon/ Andoral Ghilan'nain envy demon/ zazikel Sylaise sloth demon/ Razikale June pride demon/ Dumat Solas Valor spirit (not pride a name he took to give pride to the slaves he was trying to free)/ dreadwolf. I like thinking about evanuris/spirit match ups but given what Solas himself tells about demons being spirits with a corrupted purpose I like to think about both their original "pure" purpose and their corrupted "demon" version. So Solas, whose name means pride (and dear lord is he with his 'i get to change the nature of the whole world without consulting anyone... Twice' bullshit) but who seems to prefer to dispense wisdom and approves of those who seek it, obviously seems like a wisdom spirit > pride demon just like his friend in his companion quest. And the Elven ruins both at her temple and in the crossroads pretty thoroughly depict Mythal as a goddess of justice/vengeance. This combined with her desire for vengeance against the others makes me put her in the Justice spirit > Vengeance demon category, like Justice in dao:a/da2. So if Fen'harel = Wisdom > Pride and Mythal = Justice > vengeance Then for the remaining Evanuris I'd guess: Dirthamon = Knowledge > Fear Sylaise = Love > Envy Andruil = Perseverance > Hunger Ghilan'nain = Curiosity > Obsession Elgar'nan = Valour > Rage Falon'din = Command > Oppression June = Creativity? > Sloth? Obviously I agree with you about Dirthamin god of secrets being Fear, and I think his uncorrupted self is knowledge. What is secrecy if not knowledge concealed? What does secrecy create if not the Fear of discovery and the Fear of what others are hiding? Just look at how terrified/paranoid his followers were in the temple of Dirthamin during their last days. But for Sylaise Envy was my first thought because of that whole 'everything they can do, she can do better' inscription in the temple of Mythal which absolutely stinks of jealousy: dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Song_to_SylaiseBut we don't know what envy demons are a corruption of: Admiration? Compassion? Love? If one of the latter two then that would give the dalish perception of her as a goddess of healing and childbirth a source. For Andruil goddess of the hunt whose followers prayed not to be the hunted - a hunter who over hunts, who hunts people instead of animals, who'll hunt no matter what even in the dangers of the void. She evokes hunger demons the most to me. The insatiable consumers. The guys who make cannibals, vampires, and werewolves. Like the one who possessed a starving man in Tevinter Nights and twisted his need into an insatiable greedy hunger. I've thought about, and dismissed, various potential purposes that hunger could be a corruption of. Not Moderation, Satiation, or Generosity, demons don't seem to be complete opposites of their spirit versions per se. And Need isn't really a purpose/virture/concept so much as it's just a fact, so it doesn't feel quite right either. And i thought of a Survival spirit giving people what they need without giving them unending hunger like the demon does... But it looks a bit out of place with the other spirit purposes. Then i was like oh what people struggling to survive are exhibiting - what the subsistence farmer and the fisherman entirely reliant on the catch is showing - is a type of Perseverance. A spirit we already know exists from the Next One short story. Alternately we may be looking at Sacrifice not as another word for her demonic form sacrificing Elven lives to her glory or entertainment - but instead in it's positive form, a parent going hungry to feed their child, sacrificing your own dreams or life to help another, a hunter who thanks every animal they kill for their sacrifice and is sure not to waste a single piece. Ghilan'nain's mural, probable trespasser notes about her experiments, and her lab in Tevinter Nights, all paint a picture of the mad scientist to me. Someone whose so obsessed with their work that the human cost does not matter. Uncorrupted this may be simple curiosity, or perhaps Purpose since I think Solas makes the connection between a spirit of purpose and a demon of desire, and Obsession might just be a type of Desire demon. I'm inclined to agree that Elgar'nan does come off as more raging/anger/smashy smashy then he does an actual spirit/demon of vengeance. But then I had to think about what his spirit purpose would be, the only example we have is Audric who is curiosity/anger but a ) he's a complex spirit/greater dead who has all his human memories, so not a normal spirit. On the otherhand maybe what he is is closer to what the evanuris is then a normal spirit? And b ) nothing about Elgar'nan has screamed curiosity to me, it would be a fascinating development if it did turn out to be so, but so far got nothing to support it. What we do know about him is that he was the leader, and that he was a general in one or more great wars for the Elven people. Now that works just as well for Command as it does for Valour. And the leader of the gods being a spirit of command does sound good, although command doesn't sound very emotional, he could be angry people aren't doing what he said anymore i guess? The Command Spirit in DAI was annoyed the physical world wouldn't follow it's commands so maybe it would have become a rage demon if you hadn't helped it? Maybe? A Valour spirit being an inspiring leader through its great displays of courage, becoming corrupted by it rage and hatred towards it's enemies feels more engaging and less petty, but whose to say Bioware doesn't want him to be petty? Either Valour or Command could work but there's another Evanuris who we know was obsessed with gaining more followers/worshippers under his command. I'm talking of course of Falon'din, good catch on the use of "hunger" and "appetite" by the way, my brain skipped on by and zeroed in on "vanity", "adulation", and "amassing more worshippers" instead. Vanity having do with how we want others to think of us (in this case with adulation and worship) makes me think more of envy, pride or desire then hunger, though obviously the fact that I'm coming at this from an angle of "what would their uncorrupted spirit self also be" influences my thinking there since none of my thoughts on hungers corrupted purpose particularly really vibe with Falon'din. Anyways, I don't think it would be stretch to describe almost any command spirit as vain given it seems to come with an inherent desire to be regarded as your commander who you will of course follow the command of. And given dai's Command spirits stubborn refusal to go back to the fade until something follows one of its commands (incidentally one of the other things Solas said about Falon'din is "most tales paint Falon'din's stubbornness second only to his self regard."), it would follow to me that a more powerful command spirit would want that on a larger scale. And that when corrupted it would want to expand its influence and be willing to invade, slaughter, & oppress to achieve that. I'd guess as an demon of Oppression/Tyranny - but desire, envy, and pride might work as a corrupted command spirit wanting more followers too. June is basically a complete guess since we know bugger all about him. The dalish call him the god of crafts, and his temple of Mythal mosaic had an anvil while Sylaise's 'anything they can do i can do better' song said her "skill rivals June's craft". So he makes something. Obvious guess is spirit of creativity, which supposedly doesn't exist because spirits aren't supposed to have creativity, though i think the whole Pantheon breaks that rule, ditto Cole and Audric. Ultimately he could be anything, though prominent demons that I haven't covered with another Evanuris yet are sloth and despair. So... Creativity>Sloth as metaphor for writers block? We know so little about them all that I wouldn't be surprised if these guesses all turned out to be wrong but it's fun to speculate. One thing to keep in mind on this to is sort of a 'Droid effect' which tends to happen that we know of with spirits and the 'higher dead/ spirits' that we have seen in the series, getting corrupted or not. That the more advanced they become, the more they get exposed to things that are real (Humans/ Elves/ Qunari) the more complex their behaviors and the more easily they are able to switch between aspects of their personality. We have seen it with Cole. We have seen it with Audric. And we have seen it, if we're right, with Mythal and Solas because while they may still be spirits at the heart...they are also complex 'people.' With their base emotions at their core Pride/Wisdom but still able to have more complex behavior which ape more complex emotions. Suffice to say been thinking about this a lot and kind of wanting to do A Crazy Theory Center Post on this but A. keep forgetting the specifics and B. don't have the time to do it...even this is a stretch...but this is why I think the Evanuris are spirits and their relationship to the ancient Elves were that of the Avaar to their gods. Afterall it is heavily implied that spirits can't imitate anything without their being something to imitate. So the Elves came first, spirits started to imitate them and ape their emotions, the young Elves on their own looked to them for wisdom and guidance then eventually councils of war, they became more complex, eventually gods, and the rest followed. But this is why there is a distinction that Solas makes between 'his people' and the modern day Elves that are Dalish or City Elves. The Ancient Elves are those that are still descended from these spirits and fully took on human form, like Cole. The Dalish et all are ancesestors of the other side of that equation, the Elves that evolved naturally.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2023 7:46:58 GMT
So Solas, whose name means pride (and dear lord is he with his 'i get to change the nature of the whole world without consulting anyone... Twice' bullshit) but who seems to prefer to dispense wisdom and approves of those who seek it, obviously seems like a wisdom spirit > pride demon just like his friend in his companion quest. Something I found symbolic about that quest is that he says he had two friends in the Fade, Wisdom and Purpose, so it is likely they gave him balance between being driven to accomplish his goals but not without considering the consequences. Such a reflective mind may have been brought about because of what happened when he created the Veil. Then he woke up to discover everything (in his opinion) was worse than the world he destroyed, so he felt compelled to restore things to what they were. However, he lost contact with his two guiding spirits and then Wisdom altogether, so now he only has Purpose to influence him. Hence, his determination to press ahead with his plans no matter the cost to anyone else. The next is a reflection based on the Missing: I would note, though, that the comic series seems to suggest that he is starting to become more reflective again, as he assures Varric that he will do his best to limit the damage caused by his scheme, which is an improvement on his attitude with the Inquisitor in Trespasser. So, may be Wisdom is starting to return, with a resulting conflict in Solas' psyche between stubborn determination to fulfill his purpose and realisation that he needs to consider the full consequences and that it may not turn out as he intends.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2023 8:04:20 GMT
Then i was like oh what people struggling to survive are exhibiting - what the subsistence farmer and the fisherman entirely reliant on the catch is showing - is a type of Perseverance. A spirit we already know exists from the Next One short story. There is also Solas' spirit friend Purpose. As I've already indicated with him, determination to see a task through to the end can become an obsession. As I've said before, Andruil's obsession with hunting may have started out in a positive way, possibly even just looking for a lost follower or seeking out new types of animals to help/admire, but then she started to enjoy the actual search itself and pitting herself against the creatures when she caught up with them and it sort of spiraled from there. So, if she wasn't an actual nature spirit, she may well have been a spirit of Purpose/Perseverance that got warped by her time away from the Fade and exposed to the real world. Also, I note that in the Core Rule Book it says that whilst some claim she was the daughter of Elgar'nan and Mythal, others maintain she was a "child of the earth". This would tie in with my idea of her as a nature spirit but it also made me wonder if she was actually a child of the Earth, so had some sort of connection to the Titans. This would throw an entirely different light on things. What if her obsession with hunting was because she was seeking something that she had been disconnected from by Mythal (Mythal gives you dreams) but somewhere deep in her subconscious she still felt a longing for? Naturally her obsession could never be quenched by hunting ordinary creatures, or even Ghilan'nain's monsters, because they were not what she was seeking deep within her soul. Finally, she tried the Void (could this be because she detected some sort of summons from there?) and this is why her exposure to it drove her mad (a realisation that she would never find what she sought or because she was getting too close to discovering it?) Were the gods not so much fearful of her hunting them as discovering the truth about her origins? Hence Mythal stepping in and stealing her memories a second time, after which Andruil stopped searching and was at peace once more.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2023 8:20:43 GMT
But for Sylaise Envy was my first thought because of that whole 'everything they can do, she can do better' inscription in the temple of Mythal which absolutely stinks of jealousy: If we do go with the Evanuris being like post Veil spirits/demons and embodying emotions/attributes, then I think you could be right about Sylaise as Envy, having started out as Admiration. As for the Dalish associations with her, originally it was simply the Hearthkeeper and this was the source of the idea of her being associated with things more likely to be done in camp than out in the forest. In the Core Rule Book she isn't associated with childbirth so much as being a protector of children because they are likely to be by the fireside. Also, whilst the inscription in ToM speaks of her skills rivaling those of the other gods, the final one is: "Sylaise, whose fire cannot be quenched." This obviously explains why the Dalish associate her with fire and the hearth but it also occurred to me that symbolically that description could be Ambition and may be the Dalish Keepers simply didn't realise this and took an inscription they found literally. Ambition driven by a desire to match and exceed the achievements of others could easily turn to Envy when they failed to reach their goals.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2023 8:45:10 GMT
June is basically a complete guess since we know bugger all about him. Ultimately he could be anything, though prominent demons that I haven't covered with another Evanuris yet are sloth and despair. Well, if you regard the opposite of sloth to be action or industry, then that could be the attribute you are looking for with June. Nor do we have to automatically assume they all turned into demons but could simply have been really obsessive spirits. What has always intrigued me was what could have been the "favour" he did for Sylaise that resulted in her ordering the creation of the Grand Sonallium, that actually sounds pretty impressive but then I suppose it would need to be if he was such a creator himself. That inscription also refers to him as "Clever" June, again pointing to his inventiveness. However, perhaps this wasn't so much material objects as ideas and problem solving. I suppose that could make him ultimately a Hope spirit, the opposite of which would be Despair.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2023 9:03:09 GMT
I strikes me that no matter which version you choose for the origins of the gods, it is clear that Mythal and Elgar'nan were seen to be the pre-eminent among them and in fact came before the others, which is why they are often described as the children of these two. This could describe either an actual blood connection or simply their relationship to them, so Mythal regarded them as she would her children, which is why she often seems to end up adjudicating between them in disputes and occasionally forcing them into compliance with her will but never actually seems to want to harm them.
It would seem one of the most strained relationships was that between Elgar'nan and Falon'Din, with the latter likely challenging the former for supremacy. However, whilst Mythal led the other gods to bloody Falon'Din in his own temple when his ambition for adulation went too far, they still stopped short of actually killing him, which would have solved the problem. Clearly, combined they could have achieved this because that is allegedly what happened with Mythal. Was this because they knew he couldn't be killed permanently? Or was it because there was some sort of prohibition against taking such drastic action against any of their fellow gods? Hence, Solas regarding their action as being so deserving of damnation, even though he claims he knew that death wouldn't be permanent, which is why he chose to banish them instead. In view of the previous relationship that seemed to exist between Elgar'nan and Mythal and their authority over the other gods, I definitely think the others wouldn't have acted without his approval.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2023 9:18:28 GMT
Incidentally, according to the Canticle of Light, in the beginning "All that existed was silence", which was broken by the Maker. He then created the Fade as an expression of himself, with the spirits being the first born to whom he gave "dominion over all that exists", born out of dream and idea, hope and fear. (So may be Solas was right about that) However, when the spirits didn't do enough with his gift to them, that is when he created the material world. This he inhabited with his second born, who would burn with an unquenchable desire, all consuming and never satisfied. Since the elves/Evanuris existed on the surface of Thedas long before men appeared, were they in fact the "second born" and not men at all? It would certainly explain the obsessive, creative desires of the Evanuris, who after all the Dalish refer to as the Creators. According to Dalish legend, Elgar'nan was the first of these, the child of the Sun, which is the symbol of the Maker.
Meanwhile, thinking about the Old Gods, that are always described as demons of the Fade initially, the first of these is Dumat, the god of Silence. If this was a reflection of the mind of the Maker at the first creation, this actually makes a lot of sense since the first thing the Maker did was break the Silence, so may be this was when Dumat was created, embodying the silence that had existed before.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 28, 2023 10:42:11 GMT
As an addendum to my previous post this would also explain the arrogance of the gods in the first place. If they only became gods because physical Elves veneterated them as such then they would then become gods to match. With all the foibles inherent in their dualistic natures.
From there to its also logical to assume that they weren't the only ones, merely the first. Ancient Elves and Spirits also likely became priests or high up in the pecking order so basically Evanuris> Ancient Elf/ Spirits>Physial Elves which served as servants, slaves, workers, and likely grunt soldiers.
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Post by dayze on Apr 28, 2023 20:04:19 GMT
Well; one possibility is that not all the Elven Gods were actually "elven".
If so, than June could be a dwarf who made golems and such (having an anvil of as a symbol defintitely makes me think of Branka and the Golems).....Andruil could be a dwarven huntress, especially if she originally came from the earth.
Ghilan'nain could be a proto-elf Halla crossbreed ala the Qunari are part dragon, possibly part elf going by the ears. Far as what kind of spirit she might have started out as, Envy? I mean her experiments were taking one kind of creature and sticking bits on another wasn't it? I can definitely see that being an aspect of envy, wanting to be so like something else that you cut a piece of it off and glue to yourself so to speak.
Though considering they all have physical form ala Cole, and Cole who was a spirit of mercy that became a killer and put people out of their misery in the physical world.....it's entirely possibly what they do in reality might be a fairly ersatz take on how things worked in the fade.
One of the things this makes me think about is, if often Spirits are a reflection of how you view them does that mean that most of the demons/spirits in the games could count as unintended forms of characterization about the Warden/Champion/Inquisitor and so forth?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 29, 2023 7:57:17 GMT
Well; one possibility is that not all the Elven Gods were actually "elven". I am definitely beginning to wonder about this possibility. As we know with the Old God religion, you don't actually have to be of the same race to be worshiped by people. We also know that Mythal and Elgar'nan did something that both neutralised the Titans and "freed" the dwarves from their control. It is entirely possible that they took talented dwarves with skills they did not possess and co-opted them into their ranks. They could even have used magic to alter their appearance so they appeared to be the same as themselves. We know that it was considered to be a crime to take the form of a dragon because that was reserved for the gods and "their chosen". So, may be June, Andruil and others were individuals from other races chosen by Mythal and Elgar'nan to join the ranks of the gods and allowed to take the permitted forms of dragon or elf. We don't even know if they all possessed magic or if their "magic" was actually a skill beyond the mastery of elves but not technically magic as such. It is noticeable that when Sylaise wanted a gift for June, she was utilising the magic of her followers among the elves but no mention of her actually being involved in the task herself. It is also complicated by the fact that spirits can take any form, or if they don't have the power to do this, possess any being they can gain access to. After all, sylvans are possessed trees and the Poet Tree was just a more benign, mentally developed form of this. Who is to say that in the past a group of individuals didn't worship the Poet Tree or a similar being as a god? In fact, we know that the religion of the barbarians of the south was categorised as animist and, based off the Avvar, it did essentially comprise a powerful spirit of the Fade called into an animal form, so any living thing that can be possessed would also be possibility. Finally, as always, I come back to the Lady of the Forest. It may be that the writers chose to quietly forget about her example as they developed the lore going forward but at the time of DAO she did represent a spirit being that did not originate in the Fade, so far as Zathrian using her was concerned, or crossed over so far back in time that she did not recall being anything other than connected with the land. However, if the Lady was an example of an earth spirit, then Andruil could certainly have originally been one of these. Alternatively, what about Ghilan'nain? You will remember that the Lady was capable of changing her form at will, so instead of wolf/humanoid, instead she preferred halla/humanoid. Of course, it may well be that the halla reflect a more sinister history, such as trapping an elven soul within a deer but that could have been because Ghilan'nain was obsessed with the form because it originated in her own prototype body. Also, it may be nothing more than design aesthetics but there are similarities between the Lady, the Arcane Archer and halla, not to mention the twisted designs that were found in the ancient site in the Deep Roads in Horror of Hormack.
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Post by g_scoundrel on Jun 15, 2024 8:25:54 GMT
Sorry for necroposting. Bumping with a fresh image of our future antagonists (?) Maker's breath they're so CREEPY
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helios969
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Jun 15, 2024 8:41:49 GMT
I did a bit of enhancement for a better look. Definitely creepy...especially the mother of all brood mothers. I'm fairly convinced these are two of the elven gods. In part because the way they loom over Solas gives me a feeling of judgmentl.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 15, 2024 8:43:37 GMT
In regards to the Old God topic and them possibly being the Evanuris, it was Gaider who stated that the Old Gods taught humans magic and urged them to destroy the elves. Why would elves do that, against their own people no less. What remained of Arlathan was destroyed and elves taken as slaves. If they managed to get free, they’d no longer have anything to rule over. I know he isn’t the lead writer anymore but I prefer the giant holes he put in that theory (without denying it completely but still), until I find out otherwise. He said that the from Solas imprisoned Evanuris in mind. If the Evanuris need Arlathan to be destroyed so they can escap, that would explain what he said back then.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 15, 2024 8:53:23 GMT
Maker's breath they're so CREEPY The dude on the right isn't so bad, unless those horns are actually growing out of his body. The "female" on the left is really weird though. Was she always like that or did something happen to her? However, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the dude is more dangerous because he looks less scary on the face of it and can probably seduce others to his side as a result. The Venatori didn't have a problem with Cory and he was obviously corrupted by the Blight, so they'd probably have no problem giving deference to this guy so long as they thought they were getting power from him in return. I wonder if they will be allied to one another or in opposition. If the former, he will probably allow her to do all the aggressive physical stuff initially whilst he builds alliances. If the latter, he will likely adopt a similar approach but she may hinder his progress. I just can't wait to hear the conversation between the three of them. Will Fen'Harel try to spin his way out of the situation once more? Also, how will the Dalish react, assuming their identities are those of a couple of their Creators? Clearly, they might have been wary of trusting Fen'Harel but this is what all their efforts at remembering what it is to be true elves was meant to have led to; their gods returning to aid them. Will they be disappointed when they see the reality or just overjoyed that they're back?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 15, 2024 8:58:33 GMT
If the Evanuris need Arlathan to be destroyed so they can escap, that would explain what he said back then. Yes, I think there has to be a connection considering Arlathan is where Solas based his ritual and where they were released. Also, the fact that Solas went to Minrathous before starting it and the circular structure there lit up at the same time. Much of the ancient cities that became integrated into the Imperium were built on elven ruins and it would seem the Vints probably acquired much of their knowledge either from what they found there or elves that had not gone into retreat as the majority did. Hopefully, we are going to get a lot of answers this time round.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on Jun 15, 2024 9:00:56 GMT
The "female" on the left is really weird though. Well if they all had the ability to shape change I wonder if maybe something went wrong and "she" got stuck like that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 15, 2024 9:04:48 GMT
Well if they all had the ability to shape change I wonder if maybe something went wrong and "she" got stuck like that. If it is Andruil perhaps it was when she battled Mythal. Mythal defeated her and stole her memory of how to find the Void. May be she stole her memory generally so she didn't remember who she was or how she should look. The codex doesn't say what happened after that, just she didn't know how to find her way back to the Void.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 15, 2024 9:06:55 GMT
Well; one possibility is that not all the Elven Gods were actually "elven". I am definitely beginning to wonder about this possibility. As we know with the Old God religion, you don't actually have to be of the same race to be worshiped by people. We also know that Mythal and Elgar'nan did something that both neutralised the Titans and "freed" the dwarves from their control. It is entirely possible that they took talented dwarves with skills they did not possess and co-opted them into their ranks. They could even have used magic to alter their appearance so they appeared to be the same as themselves. We know that it was considered to be a crime to take the form of a dragon because that was reserved for the gods and "their chosen". So, may be June, Andruil and others were individuals from other races chosen by Mythal and Elgar'nan to join the ranks of the gods and allowed to take the permitted forms of dragon or elf. We don't even know if they all possessed magic or if their "magic" was actually a skill beyond the mastery of elves but not technically magic as such. It is noticeable that when Sylaise wanted a gift for June, she was utilising the magic of her followers among the elves but no mention of her actually being involved in the task herself. It is also complicated by the fact that spirits can take any form, or if they don't have the power to do this, possess any being they can gain access to. After all, sylvans are possessed trees and the Poet Tree was just a more benign, mentally developed form of this. Who is to say that in the past a group of individuals didn't worship the Poet Tree or a similar being as a god? In fact, we know that the religion of the barbarians of the south was categorised as animist and, based off the Avvar, it did essentially comprise a powerful spirit of the Fade called into an animal form, so any living thing that can be possessed would also be possibility. Finally, as always, I come back to the Lady of the Forest. It may be that the writers chose to quietly forget about her example as they developed the lore going forward but at the time of DAO she did represent a spirit being that did not originate in the Fade, so far as Zathrian using her was concerned, or crossed over so far back in time that she did not recall being anything other than connected with the land. However, if the Lady was an example of an earth spirit, then Andruil could certainly have originally been one of these. Alternatively, what about Ghilan'nain? You will remember that the Lady was capable of changing her form at will, so instead of wolf/humanoid, instead she preferred halla/humanoid. Of course, it may well be that the halla reflect a more sinister history, such as trapping an elven soul within a deer but that could have been because Ghilan'nain was obsessed with the form because it originated in her own prototype body. Also, it may be nothing more than design aesthetics but there are similarities between the Lady, the Arcane Archer and halla, not to mention the twisted designs that were found in the ancient site in the Deep Roads in Horror of Hormack. When I look at the left figure in the gameplay trailer. I agree with this thought.
I am 100% sure it is gilly.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 15, 2024 9:08:32 GMT
The "female" on the left is really weird though. Well if they all had the ability to shape change I wonder if maybe something went wrong and "she" got stuck like that. Given the weird shit to be found in her laboratories it wouldn't surprise me if Ghilan'nain did it to herself on purpose.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 15, 2024 9:12:46 GMT
Lusacan = Falon'din: Both associated with shadows and darkness, such as the Constellation Tenebrium. Razikale = Ghilan'nain: Dragon of Mystery and Mother of Monsters. I am really not sure, If Lusacan is right. But 100% the old gods = Evanuris.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 15, 2024 9:36:56 GMT
I do wonder if the codices with the astrariums were meant to be clues. It had this to say for eluvia: Eluvia is commonly referred to as "Sacrifice". (There followed an old Orlesian folktale but I am going to ignore that). Prior to this tale, Eluvia was thought to represent Razikale, the Tevinter Old God of Mystery. Now look at the depiction of this constallation: Doesn't that suggest the bow shaped headdress? Then Andruil was associated with Sacrifice by the ancient elves according to both the Temple of Mythal and Morrigan. Plus she had a glowing spear just as this goddess does in the concept art. "She shook the radiance of the stars, divided them into grains of light, then stored them in a shaft of gold. Andruil, blood and force, save us from the time this weapon is thrown. Your people pray to You. Spare us the moment we become Your sacrifice." As for Lusacan, they made a direct link between him and Falon'Din in the codex on the constallation Tenebrium: Called "Shadow" in the common parlance, likely due to the ancient association of the constellation Tenebrium with Lusacan, the Old God of darkness and the night. It is odd, however, that the depiction for this constellation has always been an owl and not a dragon, even in the Tevinter texts. This lends credence to the widely-held belief that Tenebrium was a name meant to supplant an older, elven association—perhaps with the elven god Falon'Din, sometimes represented in tales as a giant owl. There is, of course, another explanation: owls are nocturnal hunters, and among earlier people, were considered terrifying omens of loss.Surely this was foreshadowing by the writers?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 15, 2024 9:56:42 GMT
It would make sense but at the same time it would appear it was the statues corresponding to them that were specifically damaged that allowed those two to escape. It would be strange if it was a coincidence, but a third statue that stood between those two was also damaged, i wonder if that means a third Evanuris will escape? Perhaps we'll get surprised by them later in the game, or maybe they'll lay low and we won't even find out they got out too until the post credit scene 🤔 Moonhead falls into (I'm gonna call) Line which falls into Beetle which almost falls on Solas Quoting these over from the news discussion thread cause there might be three Evanuris on the board 🤔
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 15, 2024 10:01:02 GMT
I do wonder if the codices with the astrariums were meant to be clues. It had this to say for eluvia: Eluvia is commonly referred to as "Sacrifice". (There followed an old Orlesian folktale but I am going to ignore that). Prior to this tale, Eluvia was thought to represent Razikale, the Tevinter Old God of Mystery. Now look at the depiction of this constallation: Doesn't that suggest the bow shaped headdress? Then Andruil was associated with Sacrifice by the ancient elves according to both the Temple of Mythal and Morrigan. Plus she had a glowing spear just as this goddess does in the concept art. "She shook the radiance of the stars, divided them into grains of light, then stored them in a shaft of gold. Andruil, blood and force, save us from the time this weapon is thrown. Your people pray to You. Spare us the moment we become Your sacrifice."I still think Andruil is the one with the recurve bow shaped headdress to match the recurve bow in her temple of Mythal mosaic.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Jun 15, 2024 12:19:20 GMT
Regardless of who they are, do you think the two Evanuris will work together or work on their own schemes separately. According to Solas they were rivals in the old days and were constantly trying to one up the others. After spending millennia locked together, have they grown accustomed to each other, or will want to avoid each other after their incarceration. Will they try to free the others or will they take advantage of this diminished world to carve up empires of their own rather than share.
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