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Post by colfoley on Jun 18, 2024 11:47:14 GMT
I will say that the interesting thing with this is that you can make a fairly direct opposite connection between Elgar'nan, the God of the Sun, and the Dragon of Night... But what the heck would mystery have to do with either Ghilinain or Andruil? Well, I think mystery is Dirthamen; and night is Ghilan'nain or Andruil ( I am sister of the Moon)...and I believe Ghilan'nain because of the monstrous form, twisted experiments, and her being Andruil's chosen. I also wonder if Andruil is actually the forgotten one Fen'Harel locks in the void when he traps the Evanuris in the heavens. It still just speculative even if it has some basis...but that's what makes it fun. Indeed. So I take it your bing card is Dirthamen and then Ghil/ Andruil but leaning towards Ghil?
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Post by helios969 on Jun 18, 2024 12:08:07 GMT
Well, I think mystery is Dirthamen; and night is Ghilan'nain or Andruil ( I am sister of the Moon)...and I believe Ghilan'nain because of the monstrous form, twisted experiments, and her being Andruil's chosen. I also wonder if Andruil is actually the forgotten one Fen'Harel locks in the void when he traps the Evanuris in the heavens. It still just speculative even if it has some basis...but that's what makes it fun. Indeed. So I take it your bing card is Dirthamen and then Ghil/ Andruil but leaning towards Ghil? Definitely. I don't mind being wrong as long as the writer's do it in a way that makes sense...I just need logical consistency. To go further down the Ghilan'nain rabbit hole I think she was/is a major schemer who may have manipulated Andruil into elevating her...and got the other gods to murder Mythal. The Real Housewives of Arlathan.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 18, 2024 12:16:02 GMT
Indeed. So I take it your bing card is Dirthamen and then Ghil/ Andruil but leaning towards Ghil? Definitely. I don't mind being wrong as long as the writer's do it in a way that makes sense...I just need logical consistency. To go further down the Ghilan'nain rabbit hole I think she was/is a major schemer who may have manipulated Andruil into elevating her...and got the other gods to murder Mythal. The Real Housewives of Arlathan. OK that last line got a huge chuckle out of me. I just can't see the other figure as being anyone but Elgar'nan though. I agree with Caitie/ Ghil'dirthalen that beetles position on the tamborine makes him Elgar'nan versus everything else. And given his regal posture plus the voice in the Thedas Call trailer going 'all will know the peace and comfort of my reign' suggests that said speaker is already used to ruling, like the King of Gods. Plus we then hear the Dreadwolf howel afterwards pretty much confirms that said voice belongs to one of the two figures...IE Elgar'nan. Other one I am a bit more split on. Both Andruil/ and Ghil could make a lot of sense given that they basically have a lot of the same connections with one another. Andruil was corrupted from the Blight. Ghil was probably corrupted from being a mad scientist. I lean towards Andruil personally because out of all the Evanuris she is probably my favorite next to Fen'Harel himself, or maybe third after him and Mythal, given how much I am a fan of hunter gods and her back story is fascinating...but they are also really setting up Ghil in the background media. Still wouldn't be the least bit surprised though no matter which of the two it is the other one will be brought up a lot by association. Of course if some of the more wild fan theories end up true we could actually get a lot of answers about all the Evanuris.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 18, 2024 12:31:15 GMT
I just can't see the other figure as being anyone but Elgar'nan though. I have way less confidence in the other one as Dirthamen...because there is much less info. That was more a rather obscure connection between he and Ghilan'nain and him being the god of secrets than anything really concrete...and predicated on those two gods working together in the coming game...which is not a given and is likely to be the opposite. Alternatively if Ghilan'nain is the great schemer who wanted to be elevated to Elgar'nan's side, then she'd have to eliminate Mythal. Maybe after the fact the other elven gods learned of her treachery and cursed her into the monstrous form we see...or she just f*cked up one of her crazy experiments and did it to herself.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2024 12:50:01 GMT
Well, I think mystery is Dirthamen; and night is Ghilan'nain or Andruil ( I am sister of the Moon)... The legend in the Temple of Mythal said this of Andruil when she went hunting in the Void: Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. That suggests that after visiting the Void too many times she became permanently monstrous in appearance and even after Mythal stole her memories perhaps she remained that way. The Void is associated with darkness, so she could have become the god of shadow as a result. Whilst Falon'Din was associated with an owl, some lore says that Anduril was also linked with owls, which would give both a connection with the night. Dirthamen would certainly seem a better fit for the god of mysteries although Razikale was always female among the Old Gods of Tevinter. I must admit, I thought that if the ancient humans had given their gods attributes based off the images they found of them, then Dirthamen would be a better fit for Dumat, the God of Silence, because of covering his mouth with his hands. However, based off the vallaslin I would think the male god is Dirthamen, so perhaps the Old Gods are different from them and do equate to the Forgotten Ones. Alternatively, if the Old Gods were really their high priests that were trapped in the Deep Roads in the form of dragons, then there is no real reason why Dirthamen shouldn't have had a high priestess.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 18, 2024 13:28:15 GMT
Quoting from news discussion thread due to relevance. I'm probably 50/50 on righty being Elgar'nan or Dirthamin myself. And I agree with lefty being Ghilan'nain. But I don't think the evil daughter/evil father connection works. There's no version of Ghilan'nain's story where Elgar'nan is her father and Mythal her mother like other Elven gods. In dalish myth she is an Andruil worshipper elevated for her faith. In the Temple of Mythal mosaics she is the monster maker with whom Andruil bargained power/status for reprieve from said monsters. If they must be a pair (and I'm not convinced they need to be) it would make more sense to pair Ghilan'nain with Andruil because she brings her into the fold in both versions of the tale, with June because they're both outsiders based on the "he made himself" story, or Dirthamin because of that mural all over Inquisition of a Bear (the animal honoured by dirthamen in dalish tales) embracing a woman with halla horns. Since I'm not aware of any reason to pair Ghilan'nain with Elgar'nan, I'd assume it was Dirthamin based on the vallaslin matching, if they had to be a pair. But I don't think the two have to be paired (neither their statues nor their positions on the in game cinematic tamborine are next to each other, nor are they opposite each other), and since the dude on the right's symbol was at the centre and in a bigger semi circle in the Varric's in game cinematic exposition, I can still see him being elgar'nan without needing to be paired with Ghilan'nain.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2024 14:39:14 GMT
But I don't think the two have to be paired (neither their statues nor their positions on the in game cinematic tamborine are next to each other, nor are they opposite each other), and since the dude on the right's symbol was at the centre and in a bigger semi circle in the Varric's in game cinematic exposition, I can still see him being elgar'nan without needing to be paired with Ghilan'nain. I'm not sure myself but one of the commentators mentioned how the order of the gods at the ritual site didn't match their position in the 2022 trailer, so just because the male one was position centrally there doesn't necessarily mean he is the "leader" of the gods. In fact we know that Falon'Din must have been challenging Elgar'nan for dominance because of Mythal suggesting they settle their differences with champions, so it could just as easily be Falon'Din/Dirthamen since the codex entry in Temple of Mythal seemed to hint that they were somehow reflections of one another. I did have the theory that one could have been mostly found in the Fade and the other in the Waking World but equally one could have been associated with the Fade and the other the Void. The Dalish legend about them seemed to suggest that there was some reason that Dirthamen could not follow his brother to wherever he had gone. The legends also say that Falon'Din walked where the people could not, so that could indicate he spent time in the Void. Then that mural at Skyhold was really odd with the "bear" embracing/crushing the horned female. Considering Ghilan'nain urged one of his followers to "fly in the shape of the Divine" against the prohibition of the Evanuris, Dirthamen could well have had a grudge against her. His temple was pretty creepy in DAI. Still, it might mean that whilst those two gods might be united against Solas, they will be in competition with each other the rest of the time.
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Post by Envisionary on Jun 18, 2024 14:54:55 GMT
If the Old Gods and the Evanuris being the same is the case, then why is it that FleMythal bent on vengeance wants them preserved through rebirth and why does Solas seem to loathe the Wardens for killing them when that would probably make his goals easier?
I will say that it does seem to fit, though. 7 out of 9, minus Mythal and Solas. 5 Blights = Only two Evanuris appear.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 18, 2024 15:47:35 GMT
If the Old Gods and the Evanuris being the same is the case, then why is it that FleMythal bent on vengeance wants them preserved through rebirth and why does Solas seem to loathe the Wardens for killing them when that would probably make his goals easier? I will say that it does seem to fit, though. 7 out of 9, minus Mythal and Solas. 5 Blights = Only two Evanuris appear. We don't know what FleMythal did with the "old god" soul after coming to collect it in DAI...
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Post by Envisionary on Jun 18, 2024 16:06:51 GMT
If the Old Gods and the Evanuris being the same is the case, then why is it that FleMythal bent on vengeance wants them preserved through rebirth and why does Solas seem to loathe the Wardens for killing them when that would probably make his goals easier? I will say that it does seem to fit, though. 7 out of 9, minus Mythal and Solas. 5 Blights = Only two Evanuris appear. We don't know what FleMythal did with the "old god" soul after coming to collect it in DAI... It's been so long since I've been involved in this series that I completely forgot that she comes to collect it.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jun 18, 2024 16:48:34 GMT
Then that mural at Skyhold was really odd with the "bear" embracing/crushing the horned female. This interpretation of that mural was always confusing to me because the way I see it, the bear is raging and the antlered figure is holding it back from attacking. The bear has it's head to the side, so it doesn't make me think it's attacking the figure or even that its attention is directed at the figure but somewhere away from them. It's almost as if the white figure is advising caution and temperance. Perhaps Dirthamen and Ghilain'nain conspired together using Dirthamen's worshiper, to gauge what Mythal and Elgar'nan would do.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2024 16:58:34 GMT
It's been so long since I've been involved in this series that I completely forgot that she comes to collect it. Actually the Old God goes to her. Kieran seemed to be getting troublesome dreams, likely Mythal contacting him through the Fade, and that is why he used the eluvian to go find her, which Morrigan says ought not to have been possible for him as a child but clearly the Old God took charge and altered its destination to the Fade instead of the Crossroads. Of course, OGB Kieran doesn't always exist in every world state, which is why its significance is likely reduced from what it could have been, unless of course the Warden killing the Arch-demon without the dark ritual simply allowed the soul its freedom to go wherever it wished, rather than destroying it as the Grey Wardens thought would be the case. That is the principle reason why I think Solas was opposed to killing them because it would likely make its companion "god" in the Fade/Void stronger as a result of them reuniting. Something that also needs to be addressed but they may overlook for convenience, is that Mythal placed something into the eluvian immediately before Solas arrived and she does this regardless of whether she absorbed the OGB or not. However, when we were in the ToM, there was a water spirit that rose up to confront Cory and then went into the eluvian. This could well have reunited with Flemeth/Mythal and that is how she knew someone had drunk from the Well because the spirit had been freed by that action. Then it was this spirit that she put into the eluvian. It is quite possible that there was more than one piece of Mythal scattered around the place, so the bit still within Flemeth was what passed to Solas but another bit (the spirit from the Well) is still free. She may have sent it to unite with Morrigan or it may be waiting to unite with someone else. There was some hint of a ghostly presence that will help us with crafting items. Perhaps it will be this spirit of Mythal.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2024 17:04:06 GMT
Perhaps Dirthamen and Ghilain'nain conspired together using Dirthamen's worshiper, to gauge what Mythal and Elgar'nan would do. It was certainly a peculiar mural. Was it the work of Solas or someone else? If the former why was it out in the barn? If the latter, whom might that have been? It would definitely seem to represent Ghilan'nain and Dirthamen, although that is mostly based off Dalish legends concerning them, which are not always entirely accurate. However, I don't recall any suggestion that the Dalish had been there in the past so that would point to an ancient elf or spirit being responsible. Something I've also recalled concerning Mythal. Didn't one of the Dalish elves speak about hearing her speak to them in their dreams after we went to the Temple of Mythal? It was one of those random conversations that you could overhear but was easy to miss.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jun 18, 2024 18:00:15 GMT
Something I've also recalled concerning Mythal. Didn't one of the Dalish elves speak about hearing her speak to them in their dreams after we went to the Temple of Mythal? It was one of those random conversations that you could overhear but was easy to miss. The Dalish in Skyhold after the Temple of Mythal I think are in awe of it but the elf who says he has dreams of Mythal is a servant in Val Royeaux. Interestingly, he was with the Dalish as a child. I mentioned in another thread (I think Schmooples) the elves gathering to Solas' side at the end of Trespasser may be a red herring or at least a part of them aren't going to him, but to another entity, and preparing for something else, either to oppose Solas or to wait for him to do what he needs to do and then come in and clean up or rebuild. Could be Mythal or what's left of her, could be Morrigan, could be someone else entirely.
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Post by The Loyal Nub on Jun 18, 2024 18:02:21 GMT
Quoting from news discussion thread due to relevance. I'm probably 50/50 on righty being Elgar'nan or Dirthamin myself. And I agree with lefty being Ghilan'nain. But I don't think the evil daughter/evil father connection works. There's no version of Ghilan'nain's story where Elgar'nan is her father and Mythal her mother like other Elven gods. In dalish myth she is an Andruil worshipper elevated for her faith. In the Temple of Mythal mosaics she is the monster maker with whom Andruil bargained power/status for reprieve from said monsters. If they must be a pair (and I'm not convinced they need to be) it would make more sense to pair Ghilan'nain with Andruil because she brings her into the fold in both versions of the tale, with June because they're both outsiders based on the "he made himself" story, or Dirthamin because of that mural all over Inquisition of a Bear (the animal honoured by dirthamen in dalish tales) embracing a woman with halla horns. Since I'm not aware of any reason to pair Ghilan'nain with Elgar'nan, I'd assume it was Dirthamin based on the vallaslin matching, if they had to be a pair. But I don't think the two have to be paired (neither their statues nor their positions on the in game cinematic tamborine are next to each other, nor are they opposite each other), and since the dude on the right's symbol was at the centre and in a bigger semi circle in the Varric's in game cinematic exposition, I can still see him being elgar'nan without needing to be paired with Ghilan'nain. Turns out she was right.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2024 18:25:33 GMT
I mentioned in another thread (I think Schmooples) the elves gathering to Solas' side at the end of Trespasser may be a red herring or at least a part of them aren't going to him, but to another entity, and preparing for something else, either to oppose Solas or to wait for him to do what he needs to do and then come in and clean up or rebuild. Could be Mythal or what's left of her, could be Morrigan, could be someone else entirely. Have you read my latest entry on the Crazy Theory Thread? I tried to combine all the examples of elves gathering/heading for Arlathan Forest and the link with the Freemarches. It is possible they were heading to Arlathan because they were prompted to do so by messages in their dreams that may or may not have been Solas. Certainly, it could have been Mythal instead of him. Or even another entity. Also, we know there at least one other remnant of ancient elves in Thedas, those strange elves of the Tirashan. Well the certainly aren't Dalish anyway. Perhaps they are the Forgotten Ones worshipers who were driven out of the Dales as heretics and evil doers by the Dalish priesthood before the fall of the Dales. Solas also told Abelas that there were other ancient elves he and the sentinels could join, presumably aligned to Mythal or the Dread Wolf. Why shouldn't there be other enclaves who were loyal to the pantheon of gods? Still, I assume that Solas wasn't particularly fussy over who might be drawn there so long as it would enable him to save them. Likely they are holed up in some sanctuary awaiting the fall of the Veil and the return of the gods. Strangely enough, one strand of Dalish belief was that when they remembered what it was to be a true elf, the gods would return. Essentially, they would seem to be talking of the Veil coming down even though they weren't aware of it. They thought it was contingent on them recovering their culture but of course the link was actually more direct. Simultaneously they would recover whatever was lost to them by the Veil and the gods would be freed (unless of course Solas had some contingency plan that would prevent this).
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jun 18, 2024 18:37:38 GMT
Have you read my latest entry on the Crazy Theory Thread? I tried to combine all the examples of elves gathering/heading for Arlathan Forest and the link with the Freemarches. It is possible they were heading to Arlathan because they were prompted to do so by messages in their dreams that may or may not have been Solas. Certainly, it could have been Mythal instead of him. Or even another entity. Also, we know there at least one other remnant of ancient elves in Thedas, those strange elves of the Tirashan. Well the certainly aren't Dalish anyway. Perhaps they are the Forgotten Ones worshipers who were driven out of the Dales as heretics and evil doers by the Dalish priesthood before the fall of the Dales. Solas also told Abelas that there were other ancient elves he and the sentinels could join, presumably aligned to Mythal or the Dread Wolf. Why shouldn't there be other enclaves who were loyal to the pantheon of gods? Still, I assume that Solas wasn't particularly fussy over who might be drawn there so long as it would enable him to save them. Likely they are holed up in some sanctuary awaiting the fall of the Veil and the return of the gods. Strangely enough, one strand of Dalish belief was that when they remembered what it was to be a true elf, the gods would return. Essentially, they would seem to be talking of the Veil coming down even though they weren't aware of it. They thought it was contingent on them recovering their culture but of course the link was actually more direct. Simultaneously they would recover whatever was lost to them by the Veil and the gods would be freed (unless of course Solas had some contingency plan that would prevent this). Haven't got a chance to read too many threads and I am avoiding some, even if I do love me some theorizing sometimes. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/eMjudLqrqAjoLIOqTalh.png) It makes sense for someone else to have a finger in the elf pie, Mythal did have her own plans and I doubt she would have spent thousands of years putting them in place and nudging history just to let Solas take the final steps without her ensuring he wouldn't be stopped. Bellera is also interesting, especially her vallaslin, because it's so unique. Davrin's vallaslin is also different from previous designs but there are elements in his that make it familiar, especially with some of the Mythal or Ghilain'nain designs in DAI. Bellara's vallaslin, though, is completely new from what I can tell. It looks as intricate as the DAO versions but I can't see elements of it that might be similar to any that we've seen. So, who is her vallaslin supposed to depict? A Forgotten One? Or is it as simple as she had it changed to reflect no particular Evanuris because she doesn't want to be associated as slave but she still wants to keep the new cultural significance of the vallaslin?
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Post by g_scoundrel on Jun 18, 2024 19:02:34 GMT
Well, damn. I was sure it was Andruil.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2024 19:31:22 GMT
Yes, I guess this thread is redundant now. (Over to the spoiler thread if you want to know more).
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