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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 3, 2016 2:09:29 GMT
A lot of people are trying hard to think of "reasons we didn't hear about this" during the original trilogy. Obviously, we all realize the truth is that no such plan existed when the original trilogy was written. I hope none of you are too disappointed if they fail to deliver a satisfying explanation as to why we "never heard about this", or "how this is plausible". Sometimes, things simply must be hand-waved and accepted in order for progress to be made. I'm not holding my breath for a great explanation as to the whys, whens and hows of getting to Andromeda. If they do an okay job, that's great. If not, I won't be surprised. My expectations are much higher once we arrive in Andromeda. That's where the story truly begins. Maybe the poll should have been, "Just how laughable will the retcon be, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being a shrug to 10 being hours of ROFL?" I'm currently expecting at least a 5, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 9. I'd be far more surprised if it was a 2. I don't even think an option for "no retcon" is needed -- the chance of the construction and departure all being post-ME3 just seems infinitesimally small.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 2:16:53 GMT
My guess about the history of the Ark Ship Project is that the Ark was being constructed just before and during the time frame of ME-1, as a scientific exploration vessel to explore the Milky Way. Right after the Saren/Sovereign incident at the Citadel, the human Alliance realized the Citadel Council was in great denial about the Reaper threat and could not be trusted to care about human race interests or protection. During the 2+ year interval between ME-1 and the end of ME-2 the Ark Project was accelerated for completion and re-tasked for an Andromeda destination. The Ark was completed just before or soon after the suicide mission and left the MW galaxy before the Reaper's attack on Earth (the start of ME-3). The true destination of the Ark was concealed with misinformation to the public and to those constructing it. Perhaps only a few people, like the Ryder family, were informed of their real destination before departure, but I'm just speculating at this point. :)
Edit: Had the Ark not left the moon construction site before the start of the Reaper invasion of earth in ME-3, the Ark would have been destroyed when the Reapers arrived there; so it had to have left earlier than ME-3 - OR - the Ark had been moved or repositioned to another location for final polishing. Once earth was attacked, the Ark was hastened away from the MW galaxy asap.
I think it is also possible that when Femme Ryder woke up from her travel sleep and said "We made it", she may have not yet realized that their destination was actually Andromeda and not where she thought their arrival was supposed to be. Lot's of possibilities.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 3, 2016 2:41:51 GMT
Sometimes, things simply must be hand-waved and accepted in order for progress to be made. If that's the case, just stay in the Milky Way Its my biggest concern. Even though I'm preordering the game, a good explanation at the beginning to know the who/why/when would help. If the explanation is lame, what does that say about the rest of the game? I don't really have any expectations once Ryder arrives in Andromeda. Just looking forward to what the species look like that Ryder encounters I will use the answer the catalyst gave Shepard You don't need to know when they were constructed, and there's not enough time to explain.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 3, 2016 3:24:13 GMT
Sometimes, things simply must be hand-waved and accepted in order for progress to be made. If that's the case, just stay in the Milky Way Its my biggest concern. Even though I'm preordering the game, a good explanation at the beginning to know the who/why/when would help. If the explanation is lame, what does that say about the rest of the game? I don't really have any expectations once Ryder arrives in Andromeda. Just looking forward to what the species look like that Ryder encounters I will use the answer the catalyst gave Shepard You don't need to know when they were constructed, and there's not enough time to explain. Staying in the Milky Way would've been my first choice, but I let go of that desire the moment Andromeda was announced. (No sense in brooding and moping.) It wouldn't have required any asspull explanations or inventions. They'd simply have needed to choose an ending, as most franchises do. I still don't understand why this would've been such a terrible thing. Have most people played only one playthrough, and truly regard only one possibility as palatable? (No need for anyone to answer or explain the reason to me. I don't actually care about anyone's sacred game saves, no matter how much I enjoy your company here in the BSN.) Asspulls and unplanned forks in the road being what they are, and this one being one serious asspull, I can't imagine explaining it will be easy. How does one truly mesh all of the story and lore inconsistencies this will cause? There will be rough spots and hiccups. If they do even an okay job, I'll give them a pass. I'll be really thrilled and impressed if they make this work smoothly. Once we get to Andromeda, though, I expect high-quality story-telling. DAI showed serious growth on the part of the DA team, if you could get past some of the gameplay dross. I'm hoping for a similar evolution from the ME team. They dragged us out of the Milky Way and have promised us quite a bit. They've had half a decade to make this game. My expectations should be high. Given how long they've had to invent an explanation, maybe I should have more faith in the Ai explanation. I just can't manage it, though. There's too much established story and lore that likely must be violated or ignored to make this work.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 3, 2016 4:11:34 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ My theory is that construction (Moon orbital construction yards) started soon after the Citadel fight in ME1 = Started in ME2. This is supported by the construction image shown below. So, while Shep was out of the Alliance picture, other N7 candidates were pushed along and daddy Ryder became one of them as the teaser video clearly shows.
If you look at the recent teaser video and the construction image, all took place before the Reapers arrived in the Solar System. If you recall, the Moon was the first thing the Reapers hit (opening ME3 sequence). The question is when did the flotilla leave? Was it a staggered move? Did daddy Ryder and one of the siblings leave first to establish a beach head? Does our protagonist leave some times later or on a different ARK (this explains why the other sibling "is out there")?
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Post by malanek on Nov 3, 2016 4:24:50 GMT
I went with Start of ME2/prematurely just as Earth is invaded by Reapers. If they want to tie it to the Reapers it really needs to be Start of ME2 to start (before Normandy 1 is destroyed). Just before Earth is invaded to depart would be the most dramatic starting point for the story but obviously the departure could have happened earlier.
I don't think the explanation is likely to stand up to scrutiny, it's just something we will just have to accept to have a soft reboot in a new setting.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 3, 2016 4:51:56 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ My theory is that construction (Moon orbital construction yards) started soon after the Citadel fight in ME1 = Started in ME2. This is supported by the construction image shown below. So, while Shep was out of the Alliance picture, other N7 candidates were pushed along and daddy Ryder became one of them as the teaser video clearly shows.
If you look at the recent teaser video and the construction image, all took place before the Reapers arrived in the Solar System. If you recall, the Moon was the first thing the Reapers hit (opening ME3 sequence). The question is when did the flotilla leave? Was it a staggered move? Did daddy Ryder and one of the siblings leave first to establish a beach head? Does our protagonist leave some times later or on a different ARK (this explains why the other sibling "is out there")?
I agree that everything indicates a pre-Reaper construction. Dad sounds kind of mature, and has grown children, so I'm betting he's a veteran N7, rather than someone newly risen to the designation. One of the earliest pieces of material we got regarding this game was that "family of three" photo that reasonably clearly looked to be a parent and two children. We don't know which parent is in the photo, but we can assume who the children are, as we correctly guessed then. I'm wandering off-topic, now, but I'm curious as to whether minor character backgrounds might be selectable based upon what your Ryder has done before enlistment. A bit of University first, or enlistment at 18? That sort of thing. (I know people keep insisting we aren't military, but that isn't what has been said by devs. We clearly are the military arm of a multi-purpose mission.) Anyway, on topic, I'm in the ballpark with your timeline. I'm thinking that the Ai was likely in the pipeline for decades before construction. I don't believe it is a human endeavor at all. (That's likely game marketing.) I believe we are seeing the construction of the human Ark above Luna, just as we'd see something similar above Asari, Salarian and Turian worlds. Things might be weird if we weren't a "Council Race" in MEA, after earning as much in the first trilogy. Maybe that is an indication that 2183 is the earliest that we'd depart the Milky Way? I'm just throwing guesses into the air, honestly. If I were writing this presently, I could choose any one of several different paths, so it's impossible for me to say, "They've definitely gone this route". I look forward to finally getting some real answers, soon!
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Post by hivemind on Nov 3, 2016 4:56:39 GMT
I think it somewhere between ME1 and ME2. Here's why: 1) Shepard didn't knew about it. Shepard should've been able to hear about it when he was in Alliance custody. In ME3 we've seen that he was treated as more of a guest of honor rather than an actual prisoner (look at the apartment that he was living in!) so he would heard the news about Andromeda Initiave. The only way this information might have passed him is when he was dead - two years between ME1 and ME2. 2) That is the last chance for BioWare to patch probobly the biggest plot hole of the entire series (aside from endings of course ). The fact that council didn't a thing into responce on the Battle of the Citadel in ME1 is just... mindblowing. But if that responce was Andromeda Initiative then that would pass as a plausible explanation.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 3, 2016 5:01:50 GMT
I went with Start of ME2/prematurely just as Earth is invaded by Reapers. If they want to tie it to the Reapers it really needs to be Start of ME2 to start (before Normandy 1 is destroyed). Just before Earth is invaded to depart would be the most dramatic starting point for the story but obviously the departure could have happened earlier. I don't think the explanation is likely to stand up to scrutiny, it's just something we will just have to accept to have a soft reboot in a new setting. Agreed on the reboot. I hope the majority have this outlook. I'd hate to have an otherwise great game beat down in a wave of Internet hate because the first 10 minutes of exposition didn't measure up to the retcon-standard they'd imagined. I really hope that the Andromeda Initiative in no way involves the Reapers. I hope it was developed with no foreknowledge of the Reapers; and I especially hope it does not launch as the Reapers invade. I love the original trilogy, but I'm finished with Reapers. I'd rather not hear much more about them. Plus, the Reapers would be crazy to let the Arks escape. It wouldn't make much sense. It would be one more thing in Mass Effect that doesn't make any sense. I don't want to add to that list.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 3, 2016 5:09:46 GMT
I think it somewhere between ME1 and ME2. Here's why: 1) Shepard didn't knew about it. Shepard should've been able to hear about it when he was in Alliance custody. In ME3 we've seen that he was treated as more of a guest of honor rather than an actual prisoner (look at the apartment that he was living in!) so he would heard the news about Andromeda Initiave. The only way this information might have passed him is when he was dead - two years between ME1 and ME2. 2) That is the last chance for BioWare to patch probobly the biggest plot hole of the entire series (aside from endings of course ). The fact that council didn't a thing into responce on the Battle of the Citadel in ME1 is just... mindblowing. But if that responce was Andromeda Initiative then that would pass as a plausible explanation. There is potentially an issue with this, though, depending upon whether the trailers have been representative of in-game fact. If the human Ark is actually being constructed above Luna, there's no way anyone doesn't know about it. It would be public knowledge. Earth is a major galactic hub. Luna is highly visible with even rudimentary viewing devices such as binoculars in our day, not to mention 22C space traffic. That Ark is massive. Even if "parked" on the far side of the moon, it's going to be public knowledge. If the Andromeda Initiative is their answer to the Reaper threat, then the Arks need to be constructed in secrecy, and the trailer is likely not indicative of in-game events. Personally, as I mentioned before, I hope the Ai has nothing to do with the Reapers and intersects with them not at all.
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Post by NRieh on Nov 3, 2016 7:40:17 GMT
We don't have much info at the moment, so it's all just speculations. I think that it should begin AND end before ME1 (with some slightest overlaping may be). 1. It completely removes Shepard out of the picture. Ryders might've heard about Elysium\Acuze, but it's just 'one of those good N7 soldiers', not a 'legend', 'First Human Spectre', 'Hero of Citadel' etc. 2. It could have been a joint Alliance-Citadel effort, like SR1. Yeah, I know that we've never heard about it, but why would we? I mean Shepard had possibly heard somethign about some other project\expedition etc, but it was pretty much irrelevant for the mission&plot. There are billions of things that had never been mentioned in ME123, which does not mean that those things never existed. Plenty of those things (big&small ones) are well known to the characters, but not the player (unless headcanoned). 2.1 That would explain the resources and high-tech, pretty much not typical for the pre-ME123 Alliance. 2.2 That would explain aliens aboard the project. Makes more sense than with the 'human-only' project. 3. Reapers? Never heard of them.
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Post by Ahriman on Nov 3, 2016 7:48:27 GMT
I think it somewhere between ME1 and ME2. Here's why: 1) Shepard didn't knew about it. Shepard should've been able to hear about it when he was in Alliance custody. In ME3 we've seen that he was treated as more of a guest of honor rather than an actual prisoner (look at the apartment that he was living in!) so he would heard the news about Andromeda Initiave. The only way this information might have passed him is when he was dead - two years between ME1 and ME2. 2) That is the last chance for BioWare to patch probobly the biggest plot hole of the entire series (aside from endings of course ). The fact that council didn't a thing into responce on the Battle of the Citadel in ME1 is just... mindblowing. But if that responce was Andromeda Initiative then that would pass as a plausible explanation. If the human Ark is actually being constructed above Luna I just don't know how they can be more direct about it than saying "yes". Their twitter literally has "Ark is being constructed near the Moon" cover.
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 3, 2016 7:52:38 GMT
My theory is that the Ark project was started long before ME1. Earth didn't like being reliant on the "alien" Mass Effect relay network and/or wanted to go grab some of the unexplored territory in the galaxy, free from Council species influence. Then, as evidence mounted of some kind of really bad alien invasion happening -- maybe right before or after the Suicide Mission in ME2 -- the Ark project was retasked to be a Plan B in case Shepard failed at allying the Council races against the Reapers. Hedging against extinction of the human race. It's still an open question about when the other Council races joined in the Ark project, since that's been semi-confirmed in Twitter. Maybe when it was retasked, to be a lifeboat for everybody willing to pitch in? Maybe that's why there are so many Arks, one for each species? The technologies required for the Andromeda journey doesn't exist by the time of ME1. How do we know that? Well, because fuel capacity and core charge capacity are still two standard problems with FTL. If humanity or other species had the technology to build FTL drives without these problems capable of travelling for 600 years without stopping to refuel or discharge, they would use this technology to improve their society. There is absolutely no scenario in which they would purposely sit on a goldmine of technology just for the sake of keeping it secret. Being able to travel for 600 years on a single tank of gas and to do so without discharging the drive core would provide an immeasurable economic advantage. And it's not just invaluable economically - this technology would have been immensely useful during war. A supply ship that doesn't have to drop out of FTL would be impossible to intercept. It would make supply lines immune to enemy attacks, and fleets could dive deep into enemy territory, attack and then leave just as fast without having to worry about being intercepted by enemy forces. Yet we don't see this anywhere in the trilogy, not even in ME3 where it would have made every bit of sense to bust out the bleeding edge tech to defeat the Reapers. This pretty much nails why the Arks make no sense in any timeframe whatsoever before ME3's ending. (If you want to consider the Mass Effect universe a real, logical one, that is). Moreover, buildings Arks would be impossibly expensive. Not to mention the impossibility of keeping such thing a secret. It's like someone on Earth building, right now and in secret, a ship capable of going to Alpha Centauri. The only way around it is some kind of external help. We know the Tempest had other influences that the Normandy didn't have, so it's possible. By choice would be the Leviathans in some obscure scheme. But it might just end being "we found blueprints in a ruin".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 9:32:31 GMT
I think the construction happened in between the end of ME1 and the start of ME2. After ME1 because the Initiative is a response/back-up plan for the Reaper Invasion which the Council and the Alliance secretly took seriously as mentioned in the Citadel DLC. The Arks though IMO left before ME3 with Shepard being in jail and leaving his support message to the pioneers going to Andromeda.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 10:00:53 GMT
My thoughts are that this may have been a covert Cerberus-funded plan, a last ditch effort, to save humanity (primarily) and all other organic species.
They would of course use a different company name, and this project would be under the guise of a desire to explore, adventure seek, etc. Considering we still have so much of the MW to explore, however, that would strike me as strange for a exploration project proposal. Maybe there has been some new discovery that is driving this desire to go to Andromeda (ex. we have recovered evidence that the Protheans may have journeyed there, let's find out why!).
^Just my little bit of crazy fan fiction theory!
I assume then this project started after Shepard's death, which I believe is 2 months after he/she saved the Citadel from Sovereign/the Geth, and completed just around Shepard's arrest/trial/or imprisonment after ME2. They probably would depart the MW sometime in early 2186, just before the Reaper's invade. I would still be fearful of running into a fleet of Reapers resting in intergalactic space though.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 3, 2016 13:08:09 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ Start of ME2, after the debacle with Saren.
Humans are smarter than the Council races and came up with a contingency plan.
Yeah, except no, they're not. The asari are economically superior, the salarians are technologically (and intellectually) superior and the turians are martially superior, and they've been FTL-spacefaring species for thousands of years. Humans have been a FTL-spacefaring species for all of 37 years. Humanity thinks it's hot shit, but it's not. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ Interesting you say that.
Humans started the ARK construction from the Moon's construction yards. Where are the superior aliens? Superior btw, is not just in science or intellect or military power. This is where INITIATIVE and Long Range Planning comes in, imo. The Council was only too happy to bask in their greater superiority while the wily humans planned for the long game.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 3, 2016 13:22:18 GMT
I think it somewhere between ME1 and ME2. Here's why: 1) Shepard didn't knew about it. Shepard should've been able to hear about it when he was in Alliance custody. In ME3 we've seen that he was treated as more of a guest of honor rather than an actual prisoner (look at the apartment that he was living in!) so he would heard the news about Andromeda Initiave. The only way this information might have passed him is when he was dead - two years between ME1 and ME2. 2) That is the last chance for BioWare to patch probobly the biggest plot hole of the entire series (aside from endings of course ). The fact that council didn't a thing into responce on the Battle of the Citadel in ME1 is just... mindblowing. But if that responce was Andromeda Initiative then that would pass as a plausible explanation. There is potentially an issue with this, though, depending upon whether the trailers have been representative of in-game fact. If the human Ark is actually being constructed above Luna, there's no way anyone doesn't know about it. It would be public knowledge. Earth is a major galactic hub. Luna is highly visible with even rudimentary viewing devices such as binoculars in our day, not to mention 22C space traffic. That Ark is massive. Even if "parked" on the far side of the moon, it's going to be public knowledge. If the Andromeda Initiative is their answer to the Reaper threat, then the Arks need to be constructed in secrecy, and the trailer is likely not indicative of in-game events. Personally, as I mentioned before, I hope the Ai has nothing to do with the Reapers and intersects with them not at all. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸ I'll start with "not necessarily". Humanity has been colonizing worlds in the MW for a while now, with corporations cashing in on the "new craze". And while I agree with you that the construction activity was public the marketing message was just another colonization project with recruitment drives for colonists, while the real project was kept secret. Besides this pic says the ARK is built in orbit around the Moon.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 13:35:05 GMT
I've recently changed my theory because of the video. I'm now guessing that the ARKs leave earth in 2569 (600 years after Apollo 11) and take however long to get to Andromeda. I believe there was a secret initiative to put a population of multi-species scientists, marines, politicians, etc. in stasis after Shepard found the archives and stasis facilities on Ilos. They were just copying what the Protheans had done... the project that was indeed mildly successful since those scientists finding a way to stop the keepers from responding to the signal from Sovereign is what enabled Shepard to defeat Saren and Sovereign at the end of ME1. Because that population was hidden in stasis, they were unaffected by the events at the end of ME3 (whatever Shepard decided to do). After about 580 years, the stasis period on Ilos ended and Pa Ryder being among them fell in love with someone and had a family. While they were sleeping, something happened in the Milky Way not necessarily related to the Reaper War (dark energy, suns going bad, etc.). Everyone else is extinct. Upon awaking the scientists realized that they had to find a way to leave the Milky Way or the population that had been in stasis would also die out... so over that 20 years, they developed the technology and built the ARKs. The ARK project is completed in 2569 and humans depart on July 20, 2569.
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Post by Ahriman on Nov 3, 2016 14:11:32 GMT
My thoughts are that this may have been a covert Cerberus-funded plan, a last ditch effort, to save humanity (primarily) and all other organic species. Oh, I like that, fits quite well into what we know so far. Besides someone else might have gotten it wrong.
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Post by NRieh on Nov 3, 2016 14:17:36 GMT
Good God, nooo! I'm positive that there must be some plots in the MW galaxy happening without TIM's personal attention. Even if Joker had been correct about the paper clip.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 3, 2016 14:46:09 GMT
My thoughts are that this may have been a covert Cerberus-funded plan, a last ditch effort, to save humanity (primarily) and all other organic species. Excellent. And Ryder is an undercover Cerberus operative. excellent. I like dual excellents
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 15:06:54 GMT
And ... indoctrinated.
So the Hamburgler will have to kill Ryder at the end of ME:A ...
Leading to a different protagonist in ME:A2 ...
Excellent? Bueller? Anyone?
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 3, 2016 15:22:56 GMT
If the human Ark is actually being constructed above Luna I just don't know how they can be more direct about it than saying "yes". Their twitter literally has "Ark is being constructed near the Moon" cover. Gotcha. I don't follow Twitter with much zeal. Above, I was diplomatically allowing wiggle room for an idea with which I flatly disagree. There's no logical way that the Ark could be built in secret above Luna. Now that I know that they've confirmed that location, which is something I'd truly had no reason to doubt anyway, I believe we can toss the "secret construction" idea into the waste bin. I think the little evidence we've been given points toward a public effort with public recruting. I like it, personally. People will bitch and moan, "but why didn't we hear about it during the trilogy?" Clearly, because the concept did not exist in the real world, which is going to be true regardless of the story they now choose. I hope the Ai is a huge, public initiative that has absolutely nothing to do with the Reapers and never involves them in any way.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 3, 2016 15:44:37 GMT
The technologies required for the Andromeda journey doesn't exist by the time of ME1. How do we know that? Well, because fuel capacity and core charge capacity are still two standard problems with FTL. If humanity or other species had the technology to build FTL drives without these problems capable of travelling for 600 years without stopping to refuel or discharge, they would use this technology to improve their society. There is absolutely no scenario in which they would purposely sit on a goldmine of technology just for the sake of keeping it secret. Being able to travel for 600 years on a single tank of gas and to do so without discharging the drive core would provide an immeasurable economic advantage. And it's not just invaluable economically - this technology would have been immensely useful during war. A supply ship that doesn't have to drop out of FTL would be impossible to intercept. It would make supply lines immune to enemy attacks, and fleets could dive deep into enemy territory, attack and then leave just as fast without having to worry about being intercepted by enemy forces. Yet we don't see this anywhere in the trilogy, not even in ME3 where it would have made every bit of sense to bust out the bleeding edge tech to defeat the Reapers. This pretty much nails why the Arks make no sense in any timeframe whatsoever before ME3's ending. (If you want to consider the Mass Effect universe a real, logical one, that is). Moreover, buildings Arks would be impossibly expensive. Not to mention the impossibility of keeping such thing a secret. It's like someone on Earth building, right now and in secret, a ship capable of going to Alpha Centauri. The only way around it is some kind of external help. We know the Tempest had other influences that the Normandy didn't have, so it's possible. By choice would be the Leviathans in some obscure scheme. But it might just end being "we found blueprints in a ruin". You guys know going in to expect some major asspulls. There's no way around it. The question isn't if they'll be present. The question is, will you still be able to enjoy MEA? I'm hopeful that they'll come up with something no more stupid than the Crucible to explain our sudden, inexplicable leap in technology. Once we get to Andromeda, in many ways, this isn't the Mass Effect we've known. No more adventuring in our own galactic backyard, in our own near-future setting. It's more of a standard sci-fi setting. I'm hoping that it will still feel and play enough like Mass Effect that I'll still love it. Based upon the facts that it's still BioWare writing the characters, the gameplay is a direct evolution of the earlier games, the in-game sights and sounds will feel familiar, etc... I suspect it will and that I'll enjoy the game quite a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 15:49:39 GMT
My theory for whatever it's worth is that the Arks were constructed straight after the events of mass effect one, and that shepard was resurrected by cerberus to try to save those who were left after the andromeda initiative.
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