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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 23, 2024 13:28:02 GMT
The Emerald Knights had wolves companions, the DAO Ranger could summon a wolf companion too. Solas being depicted as a wolf doesn't mean he was the only wolf around the ancient elves. The Emerald Knights were modern Dalish though, so the fact they had wolf companions only indicated that this was how they interpreted images and statues of wolves they found in the south. After all, Morrigan couldn't understand what a statue to Fen'Harel would be doing outside the Temple of Mythal and yet she was taught by Flemeth/Mythal. The fact that he was shown alongside her statues as a wolf may have had a symbolic meaning before he became known as the Dread Wolf. I've suggested it could be that the Arcane Warriors, whom Solas said were the bodyguards of the nobility, may have been represented in art as wolves because of their renowned loyalty and trustworthiness, just as the subordinate wolves are loyal to the alpha male and female of the pack. This would then explain why he was known as just "the Wolf" to the Executor (possibly because he was head of the order of Arcane Warriors) but " Dread Wolf" after his rebellion because he had done the unthinkable and turned against the gods. The Dalish even had a folktale about a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants (yet never made the connection with Fen'Harel). This is why I think the Dalish found these statues and just thought they represented real wolves rather than symbolic wolves. After all, you can't tell me that they constructed the huge tomb for the Emerald Knights in the roughly 250 years that the Dales existed, when they also buried them in graves under the trees, so I'm pretty sure they repurposed an ancient site they discovered that had wolf guardians at the door (which is where we found the codex about them). However, they do place small statues of Fen'Harel facing outwards from their camp to ward off evil spirits, so they do seem to have some residual memory of him as a guardian (and the power over spirits would seem to be correct). As for the ranger class, that could equally be a human or a dwarf. There was a strong tradition concerning wolves and dogs in Ferelden, so it was not something confined to the Dalish. Also Merrill told the story of a dog chasing off Fen'Harel, so again there are mixed messages in the stories of the Dalish regarding wolves.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 23, 2024 15:37:46 GMT
When Epler said "(...)stop the gods because Bellara feels at least partially responsible since they are elven gods, but also to maybe find a little bit more of who they used to be. Because again, you're dealing with these elves that were around millennia ago that have now reemerged into the world, and who better to teach her who the elves used to be than them" I wonder what he means by this because Solas is Solas, but old babe Elgarn'an and GHilan'nain don't seem the type to sit and chat, and teach. They looks like a bunch of "worship me or perish" type. Either way I hope the Evanuris get fleshed out beyond mouhahahahah.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 23, 2024 17:48:05 GMT
I wonder what he means by this because Solas is Solas, but old babe Elgarn'an and GHilan'nain don't seem the type to sit and chat, and teach. They looks like a bunch of "worship me or perish" type. Either way I hope the Evanuris get fleshed out beyond mouhahahahah. I suppose it depends on how they were before power went to their heads. After all there was a time when they were just leaders that the other elves looked to for guidance and protection. From the codex to Elgar'nan in the ToM, it was the other elves who asked him to lead the charge against the Titans because they were destroying their cities. May be the Dalish tales were half right and he did start by being upset by the destruction because he admired the beautiful things that had been created by them (even though the titans may not have been doing it deliberately) and gradually he became more committed to vengeance for the sake of it as his power and rule over the other elves grew. The human Fog Dancers on Seheron speak of a time when their ancestors "learned at the feet of the elves". I wonder which elves those were? Also, I think Elgar'nan at least may be good at manipulating people into doing what he wants. For example, I'm sure if he offered the Venatori more power they would jump at it; it's how Corypheus won their loyalty. If he gave them the means to drive the Qun back to Par Vollen there is the possibility the Magisterium would jump on board as well. Also, what about the modern elves, particularly the Dalish? They might have had reservations about following Fen'Harel (yet plenty seem to have done so) but if Elgar'nan turned up demanding their loyalty wouldn't that mean their prayers had been answered? Elgar'nan looked a bit strange but not as weird as Ghilan'nain, so likely that wouldn't deter them. I'm pretty sure it was his voice we heard at the end of the 2023 teaser. I certainly hope this won't be a wasted opportunity for a proper, intelligent adversary, plus finally learning about elven history from the perspective of the Evanuris. If they must have a bat shit crazy god, leave that to Ghil. They've been setting her up that way. What I principally wonder is whether the two gods will work together or be rivals. Either would be interesting but I'm hoping for the latter. I suppose that depends on how they view the occasion of their release, their relationship before their imprisonment and whether they have been incarcerated together or separately all these years.
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Post by grallon on Jul 23, 2024 18:20:58 GMT
What I principally wonder is whether the two gods will work together or be rivals. Either would be interesting but I'm hoping for the latter. I suppose that depends on how they view the occasion of their release, their relationship before their imprisonment and whether they have been incarcerated together or separately all these years. We don't know in what state of mind they will be... emerging from their prison. Solas was weak and disoriented but then again he had been in uthenera. Were the Evanuris conscious throughout the millennia of their captivity? Or slumbering as well? Were the they kept isolated, prevented from communicating with each other? The prison transfer conceit seem to indicate as much. Well anyway, perhaps we'll finally learn if there is any truth to the theory that the great dragons buried under the surface are their physical manifestation.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 23, 2024 18:55:45 GMT
What I principally wonder is whether the two gods will work together or be rivals. Either would be interesting but I'm hoping for the latter. I suppose that depends on how they view the occasion of their release, their relationship before their imprisonment and whether they have been incarcerated together or separately all these years. We don't know in what state of mind they will be... emerging from their prison. Solas was weak and disoriented but then again he had been in uthenera. Were the Evanuris conscious throughout the millennia of their captivity? Or slumbering as well? Were the they kept isolated, prevented from communicating with each other? The prison transfer conceit seem to indicate as much. Well anyway, perhaps we'll finally learn if there is any truth to the theory that the great dragons buried under the surface are their physical manifestation. IMO? We already know (thanks to JEpler's remarks) that Solas has been preparing his ritual for longer than anyone suspected (and that's why there's increasingly been more magical shenanigans, etc.), so I'd say it's quite likely that we'll also learn that Evanuris have long been working on freeing themselves. Or that perhaps - all this time - Thedas has been a place of an esoteric battle, done mostly via proxies, between powers long thought dormant or expired. We know there are strange whispers and strange agents that have been working or messing with things over the millennia, and while I'm sure quite a few of them have their own, separate agendas, I also won't be surprised if it turns out that many events that seemed either unrelated, or seemingly related to something else, may have been something Evanuris had their hand in.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 23, 2024 19:06:40 GMT
I'm pretty sure it was the Evanuris trolling the Sidereal Magisters with the whole "come to the Golden City, we have candy"
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 23, 2024 19:11:12 GMT
When Epler said "(...) stop the gods because Bellara feels at least partially responsible since they are elven gods, but also to maybe find a little bit more of who they used to be. Because again, you're dealing with these elves that were around millennia ago that have now reemerged into the world, and who better to teach her who the elves used to be than them" I wonder what he means by this because Solas is Solas, but old babe Elgarn'an and GHilan'nain don't seem the type to sit and chat, and teach. They looks like a bunch of "worship me or perish" type. Either way I hope the Evanuris get fleshed out beyond mouhahahahah. There could be other ancient elves or even other Evanuris we encounter in the game that are more willing to talk.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 23, 2024 20:09:28 GMT
When Epler said "(...) stop the gods because Bellara feels at least partially responsible since they are elven gods, but also to maybe find a little bit more of who they used to be. Because again, you're dealing with these elves that were around millennia ago that have now reemerged into the world, and who better to teach her who the elves used to be than them" I wonder what he means by this because Solas is Solas, but old babe Elgarn'an and GHilan'nain don't seem the type to sit and chat, and teach. They looks like a bunch of "worship me or perish" type. Either way I hope the Evanuris get fleshed out beyond mouhahahahah. There could be other ancient elves or even other Evanuris we encounter in the game that are more willing to talk. Th erea lquestion is though "Will the ysa ysomethin we wil l want to hear?"
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Post by colfoley on Jul 23, 2024 20:16:36 GMT
When Epler said "(...) stop the gods because Bellara feels at least partially responsible since they are elven gods, but also to maybe find a little bit more of who they used to be. Because again, you're dealing with these elves that were around millennia ago that have now reemerged into the world, and who better to teach her who the elves used to be than them" I wonder what he means by this because Solas is Solas, but old babe Elgarn'an and GHilan'nain don't seem the type to sit and chat, and teach. They looks like a bunch of "worship me or perish" type. Either way I hope the Evanuris get fleshed out beyond mouhahahahah. somewhere they did mention or at least imply we'll see them before they became all muhaha.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 23, 2024 20:23:40 GMT
somewhere they did mention or at least imply we'll see them before they became all muhaha. I think there's some lore dump possibly via fresco before we interrupt the ritual? I guess so new player can understand what's going on. But I haven't read anything about our new favorite duo, besides they just pop out of jail and start tearing the place.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 23, 2024 20:37:36 GMT
somewhere they did mention or at least imply we'll see them before they became all muhaha. I think there's some lore dump possibly via fresco before we interrupt the ritual? I guess so new player can understand what's going on. But I haven't read anything about our new favorite duo, besides they just pop out of jail and start tearing the place. As it should be.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 23, 2024 20:42:15 GMT
When Epler said "(...) stop the gods because Bellara feels at least partially responsible since they are elven gods, but also to maybe find a little bit more of who they used to be. Because again, you're dealing with these elves that were around millennia ago that have now reemerged into the world, and who better to teach her who the elves used to be than them" I wonder what he means by this because Solas is Solas, but old babe Elgarn'an and GHilan'nain don't seem the type to sit and chat, and teach. They looks like a bunch of "worship me or perish" type. Either way I hope the Evanuris get fleshed out beyond mouhahahahah. somewhere they did mention or at least imply we'll see them before they became all muhaha. Hopefully they didn’t all just become Saturday morning cartoon villains and we actually get things that set them up as more nuances than the objective evil the man who wants to destroy the world says they all are.
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Post by theascendent on Jul 23, 2024 20:51:39 GMT
I am curious how the Dalish will react to the reality of what the Gods/Evanuris were/are. I imagine that Davrin, Bellara and an Elf Rook will have interesting discussions on the reality of their culture and how to deal with the whole 'Veil destruction means doom for the other races, but will probably save the Elves'. Do you think many Elves will take that risk/gamble considering how often they've been screwed over in this version of Thedas, or will Solas' previous blunders convince them that his plans always fail and come at the expense of the Elves? Certainly, it is a difficult moral dilemma.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 23, 2024 21:20:08 GMT
From what we know the Part 1 of removing the veil safely failed big time. Now we have two relics rampaging and blighting the countryside. There might be some Dalish who will run into Elgarn'an and Ghilan'nain arms. Those are their gods afterall. But the whole thing is a terrible PR move, for bringing down the veil and for worshipping elven gods.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 24, 2024 8:54:26 GMT
I also posted this on Bellara thread under a spoiler.
I think how various elf companions respond to the return of the gods could be interesting and revealing and also how Solas might try and play on the sympathies of our elven companions. Whilst I am not entirely convinced about Bellara as a "Dalish" and think that at the very least she may belong to an anti-Wolf faction, that doesn't preclude allegiance to, say, Ghilan'nain, whilst if Davrin is a committed Dalish with regard to his religion, what is he going to make of the return of the gods? The Keepers have been teaching all these years that if they just persevere in preserving their culture one day the gods will return and they will be rewarded for their loyalty. After all, they were telling the truth when they taught that Fen'Harel imprisoned them. Now they are free. That is a pretty big deal. In fact, since I intend playing as an elf first run, among the rank and file Dalish he might even be regarded as something of a hero for freeing them. Of course, they may change their minds when they discover they are going to be enslaved again but if the gods are leading a charge against the current world order which oppressed them, they might not realise that at first.
"All the world will soon share the peace and comfort of my reign." That has to be Elgar'nan doesn't it? Whilst the Wolf in the background is howling his warning.
Also, do you think the gods will want the Veil removed? If they are drawing their power from somewhere other than the Fade, which is the case with both blood magic and blight magic, plus they will have access to red lyrium, why would they want a restoration of magic to the population generally? Surely, it would be in their interests to ensure that does not occur? I think the situation could be very complicated.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 24, 2024 10:06:39 GMT
Also, do you think the gods will want the Veil removed? If they are drawing their power from somewhere other than the Fade, which is the case with both blood magic and blight magic, plus they will have access to red lyrium, why would they want a restoration of magic to the population generally? Surely, it would be in their interests to ensure that does not occur? I think the situation could be very complicated. Depends on what they want ? We still don't know why they were blighted, and if they are corrupted by the Blight. Darkspawn are driven by the "song" (might be a spell) Corypheus seemed to have agency but he still wanted to get back to the Golden City. Are the Evanuris the ones "singing" and driving people mad, or it's something else and they are also driven by an unknown force?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 24, 2024 10:33:29 GMT
I also posted this on Bellara thread under a spoiler. I think how various elf companions respond to the return of the gods could be interesting and revealing and also how Solas might try and play on the sympathies of our elven companions. Whilst I am not entirely convinced about Bellara as a "Dalish" and think that at the very least she may belong to an anti-Wolf faction, that doesn't preclude allegiance to, say, Ghilan'nain, whilst if Davrin is a committed Dalish with regard to his religion, what is he going to make of the return of the gods? The Keepers have been teaching all these years that if they just persevere in preserving their culture one day the gods will return and they will be rewarded for their loyalty. After all, they were telling the truth when they taught that Fen'Harel imprisoned them. Now they are free. That is a pretty big deal. In fact, since I intend playing as an elf first run, among the rank and file Dalish he might even be regarded as something of a hero for freeing them. Of course, they may change their minds when they discover they are going to be enslaved again but if the gods are leading a charge against the current world order which oppressed them, they might not realise that at first. " All the world will soon share the peace and comfort of my reign." That has to be Elgar'nan doesn't it? Whilst the Wolf in the background is howling his warning. Also, do you think the gods will want the Veil removed? If they are drawing their power from somewhere other than the Fade, which is the case with both blood magic and blight magic, plus they will have access to red lyrium, why would they want a restoration of magic to the population generally? Surely, it would be in their interests to ensure that does not occur? I think the situation could be very complicated. I would think Davrin is safe at least being a Grey Warden and being mad about the Blight and against Blighted Creatures, they do hate the Blight afterall. Mind you on the flip side if they have the same abilities Corypheus does then maybe they can do some kind of influencing of the Wardens he then becomes a LOT more suspect. Of the two as much as I would hate to say it Bellara would be the more likely to be suspetable to corruption. Depending on just how eager she is to learn about the past she would have access to three creatures who could be like 'we could give you everything you want'. Of course the issue here is she might even be doing one of those things where she is intending on double crossing the Evanuris only to wind up being caught in the trap. Though based on their positions at the table I would expect each character that does not match up with a perspective Evanuris to also be safe...*glances once more at Emrich* Also, do you think the gods will want the Veil removed? If they are drawing their power from somewhere other than the Fade, which is the case with both blood magic and blight magic, plus they will have access to red lyrium, why would they want a restoration of magic to the population generally? Surely, it would be in their interests to ensure that does not occur? I think the situation could be very complicated. Depends on what they want ? We still don't know why they were blighted, and if they are corrupted by the Blight. Darkspawn are driven by the "song" (might be a spell) Corypheus seemed to have agency but he still wanted to get back to the Golden City. Are the Evanuris the ones "singing" and driving people mad, or it's something else and they are also driven by an unknown force? There has been some insinuation of a much more powerful force out there singing that has yet to be fully revealed. The Codex Entry that we find in the Fade in DAI about angry voices waiting and then Flemth's 'as long as the music plays, we dance' almost as if her rage was against her will (of course alternatively she could just be commenting on the 'human nature' aspect of her rage that it was taking on a mind of its own and she was then coming to her senses and calming down after she realized what she said.) But it is a rather fascinating idea that, essentially, the Wardens have it all wrong. The Arch Demons aren't the ones singing, at least at first, but something else is...the Archdemon bodies are just part of whatever this thing's is seal, so it wants to free itself. Now when the Old Gods get blighted they can start singing and briefly co opt the Darkspawn signal but this thing is patient, it can wait.
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Post by azarhal on Jul 25, 2024 14:38:54 GMT
Not from Game Informer, but since this is basically our pre-release spoiler thread:
hearsay from SDCC shared by Kala Elizabeth on twitter:
Doesn't look good for Solas...
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Post by Reznore on Jul 25, 2024 14:44:53 GMT
Not from Game Informer, but since this is basically our pre-release spoiler thread:
hearsay from SDCC shared by Kala Elizabeth on twitter:
Doesn't look good for Solas...
Solas is all about not trusting anyone, not sharing power, etc... He'd make a terrible group leader, there's a reason he's a lone wolf messing up all the things. I wouldn't listen to him except when it comes to some old elven lore/magic. Also we're supposed to prove him wrong, that aren't happening if we listen to his BS and agree.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 25, 2024 17:10:29 GMT
He'd make a terrible group leader, there's a reason he's a lone wolf messing up all the things. I wouldn't listen to him except when it comes to some old elven lore/magic. I going to have fun ignoring him. I wonder how it will work though. Will he make suggestions and we can play along but then do the opposite or will we be able to tell him bluntly he can go chase himself? He is definitely not the leader though. Also, will it be possible to make a pact with the others that if it looks like he is trying to control me, they will lock me in my room until he gives up? That's my chief fear. Can we block him if we choose or does he have a direct line that we can't circumvent? If he gets really ticked off will he be able to kill us? I doubt he actually would as that would not be in his interests but he certainly might threaten it. I really do see it as something of a rerun of ME2 and TIM though. Willing to work with him under duress and take his advice with caution when it comes to dealing with the active threat but once that is dealt with I would cut off contact and go my own way. When it comes to proving him wrong, it won't be about the merits of preserving the modern world but about trusting others. I hope so anyway. I really don't want to have to endure another lecture from him about the corruption in my organisation like I did in Trespasser.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 25, 2024 17:54:51 GMT
Not from Game Informer, but since this is basically our pre-release spoiler thread:
hearsay from SDCC shared by Kala Elizabeth on twitter:
Doesn't look good for Solas...
Solas is all about not trusting anyone, not sharing power, etc... He'd make a terrible group leader, there's a reason he's a lone wolf messing up all the things. I wouldn't listen to him except when it comes to some old elven lore/magic. Also we're supposed to prove him wrong, that aren't happening if we listen to his BS and agree. The guy led a massive uprising against over-powered god-kings And it appears that this uprising was quite successful, given that the god-kings had to resort to killing their own in order to gain an advantage.
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Post by grallon on Jul 25, 2024 18:21:57 GMT
Not from Game Informer, but since this is basically our pre-release spoiler thread:
hearsay from SDCC shared by Kala Elizabeth on twitter:
Doesn't look good for Solas...
So, reduced from main antagonist to a buzz in the ear... How the mighty have fallen. I anticipate a great deal of gnashing of teeth on my part.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 25, 2024 19:54:31 GMT
And it appears that this uprising was quite successful, given that the god-kings had to resort to killing their own in order to gain an advantage. He claimed he only rebelled after they killed Mythal. Of course, other evidence suggests she was colluding with him and I've reached the point now where I'm not confident about anything that happened back then. However, if the uprising was so successful why did he have to resort to entrapment? To be honest, based off the half remembered Dalish version, I think he may have lost control of his allies and the conflict had escalated to a point where he feared mutually assured destruction, so he came up with his idea of entrapping both sets of leaders. His bitterness and references to betrayal probably relate to his allies in the rebellion and resulted in his aversion to trusting anyone else from then on.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 25, 2024 20:47:00 GMT
And it appears that this uprising was quite successful, given that the god-kings had to resort to killing their own in order to gain an advantage. He claimed he only rebelled after they killed Mythal. Of course, other evidence suggests she was colluding with him and I've reached the point now where I'm not confident about anything that happened back then. That is not true at all - I recommend reviewing what Solas says in Trespasser, because his words aren't vague about this. He rebelled first, THEN they killed Mythal. When they killed Mythal he made the decision to rise the Veil and banish them (and not because they "he ws pissed off about killing Mythal", but because killing Mythal meant that Evanuris were capable of destroying the entire world). That was after he's already led the rebellion. He's made the decision to lead the rebellion after he's found out something terrifying in Deep Roads. We even have access to the spot where the decision has been made.We don't know exactly WHEN this happened, but everything Solas says, and even every location we visit in Trespasser make it clear that the rebellion was instigated *before* Mythal died. A. Because "the first of his people" are hard to kill. Mythal is a good example of that. B. Because Evanuris resorted to something capable of quenching the rebellion, that at the same time appears to have threatened the existence of the entire world.. This is really not hard to infer. And Solas - as well as probably everyone on his side, including Mythal - likely didn't think the rest of Evanuris is crazy enough to resort to this world-ending measure. They proved everyone wrong, and forced Solas hand. I really don't understand the insistence on basing anything on "half-remembered Dalish version" of some myth, when we have robust evidence in Trespasser about what has likely occurred, including first-hand witnesses - and even participators! - of the events???
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Post by Reznore on Jul 25, 2024 21:11:09 GMT
The guy led a massive uprising against over-powered god-kings And it appears that this uprising was quite successful, given that the god-kings had to resort to killing their own in order to gain an advantage. Mythal had been keeping the gods in check for a long time. Nothing to do with Solas. She wrestled Andruil away from the Blight, calmed Elgar'nan, kicked Falon'din ass when he tried to amass more followers. If you read between the line with the Sinner story, you can see the gods were subtly moving against her. She probably allowed Solas to do what he did so he would weaken the gods who were getting out of hands. It worked so great, they just murdered her, and probably decided to Blight all the things. And we know what happened next.
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