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Post by colfoley on Jul 26, 2024 1:34:13 GMT
On the devil on your shoulder thing going to be interesting how exactly this plays out because while his goals aren't necessarily kosher he still can have tactical advice on how to fight them since he's done it before so it's not wise to ignore everything he has to say.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2024 7:05:20 GMT
I really don't understand the insistence on basing anything on "half-remembered Dalish version" of some myth, when we have robust evidence in Trespasser about what has likely occurred, including first-hand witnesses - and even participators! - of the events??? They speak of two sets of gods battling one another. Solas says there were no actual gods, just very powerful leaders (all elves were capable of a little magic then) who gradually assumed absolute control. We know from JoH that one of the Forgotten Ones did exist, Gelduran. Felassan also mentioned another in one of his tales, Anaris, and he had a grudge against Fen'Harel. Anaris is mentioned in the password at Fen'Harel's sanctuary. It is possible it means something in elven, like Solas does, so not necessarily the name of a leader of the rebellion but it does seem strange and somewhat coincidental that the writers decided to include it (unless they deliberately wanted to confuse us). Thus it seems to me that the Forgotten Ones were a group of powerful elven mages who resented the rule of the Evanuris and joined with Fen'Harel in order to overthrow the gods. Hence the Dalish remembering how he seemed to be friends with both sides because, of course, he was allied with Mythal. It is clear from Gelduran's words that he intended assuming rulership once the Evanuris had been dealt with. Solas probably discovered this and realised that he would simply be replacing one set of tyrants with another. Hence him having to devise a plan which resulted in both sets of "gods" being imprisoned. This is why I think the term "Evanuris" (leaders) applies to both sides, not just the group that the Dalish know as the Creators. I think there is probably also some truth in Merrill's version where he enticed them into his trap by telling them the alleged location of the ultimate weapon to win the war. This may have been red lyrium or the idol. He's made the decision to lead the rebellion after he's found out something terrifying in Deep Roads I have to admit that after reading Horror of Hormack I think he discovered one of the pools and what they were used for. The entry says they sealed them off with magic, which would account for why no one discovered them in the Deep Roads before, but something (probably the Breach) must have broken the seal(s) allowing the pools to activate and the monsters they created escape. Of course, they could be from the earlier era and what Ghilan'nain used to create the monsters that Andruil hunted but if so, likely she was ordered to destroy the pools when offered godhood but possibly just deactivated them and then resumed using them at a later date in secret, which Fen'Harel discovered. It worked so great, they just murdered her, and probably decided to Blight all the things. Red lyrium probably had something to do with it. Mythal did seem to be in charge of the lyrium mining. Red lyrium, which can grow on anything, would by-pass her control of this power source. It may be something they did discover after the start of the rebellion. If I am correct and the Forgotten Ones were part of the rebellion, then it is said that Andruil went hunting them and that is when she became corrupted. Stealing her memory was likely Mythal's way of ensuring the others didn't find out where the red lyrium was located but the secret was out and the others started wanting it too. I would be interested when the duel was fought between the Champions of Elgar'nan and Falon'Din. Was it just a general memory of how Mythal resolved disputes or was Falon'Din challenging Elgar'nan a direct result of their increased lust for power? Was it after Elgar'nan's champion won the encounter that Falon'Din sought adulation by more lethal methods and Mythal was forced to act against him directly?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2024 7:12:24 GMT
On the devil on your shoulder thing going to be interesting how exactly this plays out because while his goals aren't necessarily kosher he still can have tactical advice on how to fight them since he's done it before so it's not wise to ignore everything he has to say. It's strange she should say he is the devil on your shoulder giving you bad advice and not that he can also be the angel too, giving helpful tips. Who was the person in the booth at the SDCC who said this? Perhaps they were only referring to near the end when you have to make a decision how to resolve matters. Otherwise it is a bit peculiar they were effectively saying we should never listen to him. I agree there are times when it might be helpful to know how he avoided getting killed by them in the past, what their weak points are, etc.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2024 7:23:24 GMT
On second thoughts may be we have our answer: ![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GTXi7DRbUAAz3QO?format=jpg&name=medium)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 26, 2024 7:47:38 GMT
On the devil on your shoulder thing going to be interesting how exactly this plays out because while his goals aren't necessarily kosher he still can have tactical advice on how to fight them since he's done it before so it's not wise to ignore everything he has to say. Eh, Johnny Silverhand knows how to fight Arasaka yet it’s still wise to ignore him.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 26, 2024 7:50:58 GMT
Reading the theories of the ancient conflict, I would genuinely love for there to be a reveal that Mythal wasn’t the best of the Evanuris but the worst. Not necessarily whitewashing the others, but there being a twist where the Evanuris acted not out of selfish reasons but to stop Mythal from doing something worse would be interesting. Especially with Solas both in him being wrong about Mythal but the Evanuris doing an action he sees as evil but they saw was the only option being a mirror to how he sees his actions vs how we see his actions.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 26, 2024 8:18:13 GMT
On the devil on your shoulder thing going to be interesting how exactly this plays out because while his goals aren't necessarily kosher he still can have tactical advice on how to fight them since he's done it before so it's not wise to ignore everything he has to say. It's strange she should say he is the devil on your shoulder giving you bad advice and not that he can also be the angel too, giving helpful tips. Who was the person in the booth at the SDCC who said this? Perhaps they were only referring to near the end when you have to make a decision how to resolve matters. Otherwise it is a bit peculiar they were effectively saying we should never listen to him. I agree there are times when it might be helpful to know how he avoided getting killed by them in the past, what their weak points are, etc. Yeah really feel like this could be a context is for kings type of situation as well. DId they mishear? Was it an exageration? Was it a mispeak? Is it going to be a situation where we end up in this place at the end? Afterall it would be really big disservice if Solas is portrayed as entirely black, so while its ok to take these words at face value, I think it would be unwise to do so and more will be made of it. Which this whole thing does put me even more in mind of the Illusive Man, whom I viewed as being the 'Devil on Shepard's shoulder' in ME 2. And like we are speculating ere the Illusive Man did serve much the same role, a man who did have a very renegade outlook, very antagonistic, but he also made a good point every now and then...at least in ME 2. Or is it going to be more like Odin in AC Vahalla? SOmeone who is very much an antagonist and trying to whisper in your ear but someone who also can have a good point and have an interesting interpretation here and there.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2024 10:24:18 GMT
Which this whole thing does put me even more in mind of the Illusive Man, whom I viewed as being the 'Devil on Shepard's shoulder' in ME 2. And like we are speculating ere the Illusive Man did serve much the same role, a man who did have a very renegade outlook, very antagonistic, but he also made a good point every now and then...at least in ME 2. It was annoying having to work with him but he did give us some good leads and if we had totally ignored him from the outset then the Collectors would have succeeded. So I can totally see parallels with TIM. Which connects with my point about the comment perhaps relating to some sort of final decision. TIM wanted us to preserve the Collector Base so we could study it. From everything I knew about them, the Reapers and what I had seen during both the games, I absolutely thought that was a bad idea, so I refused. Then when he contacted us when we had safely returned through the Omega Relay and tried to influence us again, I just cut him off. The Reapers were still out there and a danger but he had shown his true colours so I preferred to deal with the threat my way from then on. That is how I envisage it playing out with Solas. There is the immediate threat of the freed gods, for which I will appreciate any advice he may like to give but follow it at my own discretion. However, assuming we do successfully deal with them, there is still the ongoing threat of the Blight which has been around for millennia and always a temptation to those who want power, particularly when it comes to red lyrium, and also the darkspawn. I'm hoping that is the big threat for which his solution was to create the Veil to lock it away along with the gods. The Magisters released it, so now we need to figure out how to stop it from destroying the world. Solas solution is to flood it with magic but that doesn't mean there may not be an alternative. He is just convinced that his way is the only way but that is his problem not mine. Hopefully my team will be able to help figure it out because I believe in consulting with others as I'm not an expert in everything.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2024 10:55:20 GMT
Reading the theories of the ancient conflict, I would genuinely love for there to be a reveal that Mythal wasn’t the best of the Evanuris but the worst. Not necessarily whitewashing the others, but there being a twist where the Evanuris acted not out of selfish reasons but to stop Mythal from doing something worse would be interesting. Especially with Solas both in him being wrong about Mythal but the Evanuris doing an action he sees as evil but they saw was the only option being a mirror to how he sees his actions vs how we see his actions. She may not be worse than the others but he may have convinced himself that she was somehow better than them to justify his actions. If, as Midnight Tea suggests, I was wrong and she was already working with Solas during his rebellion, possibly encouraged it, and that is why the others killed her, might it not be possible that she had convinced Solas she was doing it for the best of reasons but she was using him for her own agenda? After all, if you drink from the Well he has no illusions about the implications for you: "Everything you do from now, whether you know it or not, you do it for her." Where is the problem in that if she was so caring for her people? To be honest, if as he says "she was the best of them", judging by what has been revealed that wasn't saying much. She cared for her people, Solas caress for his people. That still makes them act out of self-interest regardless of the consequences for those who are not their people. Mythal didn't seem to care very much for her people either. She had been running around Thedas for several centuries (possibly on more than one occasion) and yet never bothered to contact Abelas and her priesthood? Just let them carry on guarding a Well for some obscure future purpose and give their lives defending it, attacking anyone who came anywhere near it, even though they could have been entirely innocent travellers. As Lavellan, particularly one wearing her vallaslin as I was, we can point out that for years the Dalish have been calling on her, awaiting her return, and yet she was there all the time. When we ask why she didn't do more, she gives some cryptic answer but it is clear her long term plans outweighed the demands of the people she had effectively abandoned. Okay, she occasionally helped them out without revealing herself but always at a price (just as Mythal always did according to the codices). Solas also said something that I can't quite find now about betrayal and remembering it from the lines of "her" face. Can anyone help with this quote?
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 26, 2024 12:03:44 GMT
Reading the theories of the ancient conflict, I would genuinely love for there to be a reveal that Mythal wasn’t the best of the Evanuris but the worst. Not necessarily whitewashing the others, but there being a twist where the Evanuris acted not out of selfish reasons but to stop Mythal from doing something worse would be interesting. Especially with Solas both in him being wrong about Mythal but the Evanuris doing an action he sees as evil but they saw was the only option being a mirror to how he sees his actions vs how we see his actions. She may not be worse than the others but he may have convinced himself that she was somehow better than them to justify his actions. If, as Midnight Tea suggests, I was wrong and she was already working with Solas during his rebellion, possibly encouraged it, and that is why the others killed her, might it not be possible that she had convinced Solas she was doing it for the best of reasons but she was using him for her own agenda? After all, if you drink from the Well he has no illusions about the implications for you: "Everything you do from now, whether you know it or not, you do it for her." Where is the problem in that if she was so caring for her people? To be honest, if as he says "she was the best of them", judging by what has been revealed that wasn't saying much. She cared for her people, Solas caress for his people. That still makes them act out of self-interest regardless of the consequences for those who are not their people. Mythal didn't seem to care very much for her people either. She had been running around Thedas for several centuries (possibly on more than one occasion) and yet never bothered to contact Abelas and her priesthood? Just let them carry on guarding a Well for some obscure future purpose and give their lives defending it, attacking anyone who came anywhere near it, even though they could have been entirely innocent travellers. As Lavellan, particularly one wearing her vallaslin as I was, we can point out that for years the Dalish have been calling on her, awaiting her return, and yet she was there all the time. When we ask why she didn't do more, she gives some cryptic answer but it is clear her long term plans outweighed the demands of the people she had effectively abandoned. Okay, she occasionally helped them out without revealing herself but always at a price (just as Mythal always did according to the codices). Solas also said something that I can't quite find now about betrayal and remembering it from the lines of "her" face. Can anyone help with this quote? I personally would be sad if Mythal turned out to be the worst Evanuris in another twist, mainly because Flemeth (and by extension Mythal) is such a force of ambivalence. Any malice she has lurks beneath a coy, withdrawn exterior, and it makes her feel so mysterious and unknowable. I’ve already made peace with Kate Mulgrew not returning, I’d hate to lose that too. But that’s purely an emotional response on my part, clearly there’s more going on than what Solas tells us and I highly doubt Mythal is innocent in it all. As for the Solas line, it’s after the Well of Sorrows. Which increases the chances of him referring to Mythal, although it may also be Andruil or Ghilan'nain. Video here: Starts around the 3:00 minute mark.
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Post by azarhal on Jul 26, 2024 12:31:29 GMT
She may not be worse than the others but he may have convinced himself that she was somehow better than them to justify his actions. If, as Midnight Tea suggests, I was wrong and she was already working with Solas during his rebellion, possibly encouraged it, and that is why the others killed her, might it not be possible that she had convinced Solas she was doing it for the best of reasons but she was using him for her own agenda? After all, if you drink from the Well he has no illusions about the implications for you: "Everything you do from now, whether you know it or not, you do it for her." Where is the problem in that if she was so caring for her people? To be honest, if as he says "she was the best of them", judging by what has been revealed that wasn't saying much. She cared for her people, Solas caress for his people. That still makes them act out of self-interest regardless of the consequences for those who are not their people. Mythal didn't seem to care very much for her people either. She had been running around Thedas for several centuries (possibly on more than one occasion) and yet never bothered to contact Abelas and her priesthood? Just let them carry on guarding a Well for some obscure future purpose and give their lives defending it, attacking anyone who came anywhere near it, even though they could have been entirely innocent travellers. As Lavellan, particularly one wearing her vallaslin as I was, we can point out that for years the Dalish have been calling on her, awaiting her return, and yet she was there all the time. When we ask why she didn't do more, she gives some cryptic answer but it is clear her long term plans outweighed the demands of the people she had effectively abandoned. Okay, she occasionally helped them out without revealing herself but always at a price (just as Mythal always did according to the codices). Solas also said something that I can't quite find now about betrayal and remembering it from the lines of "her" face. Can anyone help with this quote? I personally would be sad if Mythal turned out to be the worst Evanuris in another twist, mainly because Flemeth (and by extension Mythal) is such a force of ambivalence. Any malice she has lurks beneath a coy, withdrawn exterior, and it makes her feel so mysterious and unknowable. I’ve already made peace with Kate Mulgrew not returning, I’d hate to lose that too. But that’s purely an emotional response on my part, clearly there’s more going on than what Solas tells us and I highly doubt Mythal is innocent in it all. As for the Solas line, it’s after the Well of Sorrows. Which increases the chances of him referring to Mythal, although it may also be Andruil or Ghilan'nain. Video here: Starts around the 3:00 minute mark. Back around DAO release and even DA2, both devs and Kate Mulgrew called Flemeth a villain (and Mythal by extension). DA2/DAI were much more soft with her presentation compared to the stuff you can learn in DAO. I believe that caused players to see her as a naughty aunt that is still there to help you instead of a malicious self-serving entity with an agenda who has been manipulating things behind the scene for centuries if not longer. Only Trespasser has anything about Mythal doing something bad again.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 26, 2024 12:53:02 GMT
Interesting. I never saw her as a naughty aunt, personally—her relationship with Morrigan is clearly abusive at best—but I never thought of her as villain in the classic sense of the term, either. She’s always been closer to the witches from MacBeth than a Maleficent type in my mind. Inscrutable and even sublime, in her own way.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 26, 2024 13:31:47 GMT
The guy led a massive uprising against over-powered god-kings And it appears that this uprising was quite successful, given that the god-kings had to resort to killing their own in order to gain an advantage. Mythal had been keeping the gods in check for a long time. Nothing to do with Solas. Lol, and this has also nothing to do with Solas ability to lead a successful rebellion. Which, judging by available evidence, he did, when time came to rally people against god-kings. Also, about "keeping the gods in check"... you somehow think that this was enough? Elvenhan is established - by materials from that era, like documents we find in Vir Dirthara - to be a highly advanced civilization that nevertheless wasn't just. There were slaves and wars in which it is implied countless people have died. And the Evanuris were only getting worse - and at some point they have found something in Deep Roads that may have destroyed everything. It is why Solas began his rebellion. Mythal "keeping things in check" wasn't enough anymore. You yourself admit it: Yes, we know that Solas actually saved Thedas ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/elVHKRxPverbDpfdrrFs.png) It didn't happen without a great sacrifice, but it actually worked. He prevented Evanuris from destroying the world at the time, and gave it millennia to rebuild itself.
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Post by azarhal on Jul 26, 2024 13:35:19 GMT
Interesting. I never saw her as a naughty aunt, personally—her relationship with Morrigan is clearly abusive at best—but I never thought of her as villain in the classic sense of the term, either. She’s always been closer to the witches from MacBeth than a Maleficent type in my mind. Inscrutable and even sublime, in her own way. Naughty aunt might not be the right term, but some players clearly sees her as someone who help the hero instead of keeping in mind all the stuff Morrigan says in DAO.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 26, 2024 13:59:29 GMT
Yes, we know that Solas actually saved Thedas ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/elVHKRxPverbDpfdrrFs.png) It didn't happen without a great sacrifice, but it actually worked. He prevented Evanuris from destroying the world at the time, and gave it millennia to rebuild itself. He did! I'm pro veil, I'm an ubber fan of the veil, best thing ever! But Solas hates it. He cannot understand there is such a thing as an individual having too much magic and this in turn destroy the choices and freedom of everyone around.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 26, 2024 14:22:21 GMT
When Inq asked Flemeth why Mythal went to her, the reply was, For a reckoning that will shake the very heavens. Then a moment later says She was betrayed as I was betrayed --as the world was betrayed! Mythal clawed and crawled her way through the ages to me, and I will see her avenged! Alas, so long as the music plays, we dance'. Then later says, I will have my due.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2024 14:29:01 GMT
As for the Solas line, it’s after the Well of Sorrows. Which increases the chances of him referring to Mythal, although it may also be Andruil or Ghilan'nain. Video here: I think it is more likely Mythal. The preceding line is about one selfless woman walking away from power but a group never has. However, that is referring to the Inquisitor, who is female in this extract. If the Inquisitor is male he speaks of a selfless man. So, it is the reference to the corruption of a group that is pertinent to the Evanuris. Then the Inquisitor can say "I trust my friends" and that is when he makes his statement: "I know that mistake well enough to carve the angles of her face from memory". So, he is either using symbolism to emphasis the sharpness of his memory in mistakenly trusting his friends or speaking of an actual person who was a friend. If the former then I may be right about the Forgotten Ones originally being his allies in the rebellion and then they betrayed him. If the latter, then it is Mythal who addresses him as old friend in their meeting in the epilogue. In fact it is the final thing she says before Mythal leaves Flemeth for Solas. If anything it seems a trigger word to indicate what she is about to do and he looks up in response. Flemeth claimed a soul cannot be forced on the unwilling. If that is true, then he allowed it. I would also point out that when Solas is acting alone, he doesn't speak well of Mythal, but after she joins with him, that is when he speaks of her good qualities. How much of that was his own freely given opinion and how much what she was influencing him to say? Look back at their exchange. She admonishes him for giving his orb to Corypheus and he gives his excuse. Then he speaks of a failure for which he admits he should be punished. Was that giving the orb to Corypheus, failing to tear down the Veil or something else, perhaps even back in ancient times? Was it that he failed to warn her of danger, or failed to protect her as was his role in life? Then he explains why he cannot pay the price, because the people need him. After which he says he is sorry and Mythal responds in kind. To be honest, how much of anything he told us in Trespasser can entirely be trusted as his own opinion? Is it possible that there was a different plan and that is why he didn't continue to seek out Flemeth after he failed to find her at her cabin in he Korcari Wilds? Was he trying to do it without her because he didn't trust her? Was he forced into their meeting because of the loss of his orb? Flemeth says she knew he would come. It says on the Wiki that originally they planned on letting the Inquisitor see him absorb Mythal, which would have put a whole different slant on their relationship going forward. Clearly, they decided against it and that means we know something as players that no one else does. I will be interested to see if he does admit the coexistence to anyone going forward because I think it is important. Remember Mythal wanted vengeance on the other gods and now she has her opportunity. So, any advice we receive will not just be coming from Solas but Mythal too. I think that will be a dangerous combination even if initially it does help us.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 26, 2024 14:42:24 GMT
I really don't understand the insistence on basing anything on "half-remembered Dalish version" of some myth, when we have robust evidence in Trespasser about what has likely occurred, including first-hand witnesses - and even participators! - of the events??? They speak of two sets of gods battling one another. But... we already know there was more than just one war ![:huh:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/MpaFjtwKhHtjDCSZozd0.png) For example, it's one of those great past wars that has elevated Evanuris to position of god-kings. And we know there were also conflicts *between* Evanuris, as well as conflicts that existed when Elvenhan was ruled by them (for example, we know that the Forbidden Ones were exiled during their reign) And we know all that basically only from ancient sources, The Dalish myths, for example, don't seem to mention the conflict with Titans at all - or mention it in such a convoluted, game-of-telephone way, that the fact that there was a war involving Titans is entirely lost. And while I'm not one to completely dismiss later/incomplete/clearly biased sources - they were put in the story for a reason (although sometimes that reason is mostly flavor), I still do not understand giving priority to half-remembered Dalish myths (especially given how much the Dalish got wrong) over far more robust evidence/clues planted in the story by writers. Considering that WE KNOW that Elves use names that also mean something else (Solas = pride, Abelas = sorrow) - which is something that happens in many languages - I'd say that this isn't as much some sort of deliberate misdirection, as just... some worldbuilding. And while I understand looking at everything in the story as a potential clue, as someone who's a wannabe storyteller, I'd advise against trying to analyze everything writers put in the story as equal in importance, or equally as deliberate as those very deliberate clues they do indeed sometimes put in the story. Sometimes blue curtains are just blue curtains, you know? And, in this regard it may be nothing more than trying to clue us into what word "Anaris" may actually mean in elvhen. If you do indeed go by what the Dalish myths say here then it only says that the Forbidden Ones were rivals and that both considered Fen'Harel as one of their own. If anything, it seems their conflict was much older than Fen'Harel rebellion, and may even be as old as that war that elevated Evanuris in the first place (and who knows what happened before that). However, if you ask me then I'd say that the "Forgotten Ones" was an umbrella term for anyone who challenged the gods at any time, which is why Fen'Harel sometimes has status as one - because they tried to do it to him as well, but didn't actually manage to, for whatever reason (probably the whole 'leader of a widespread rebellion' thing) I don't know what we're going to discover in DAVe, but so far there is no evidence whatsoever that Solas was motivated by him figuring out that both sides of the conflict were as bad. Because HE was the side of the conflict during his rebellion. He likely had companions and friends, and likely very powerful allies - but it was HIS war. It wasn't the war with the Forbidden Ones - it was Fen'Harel's rebellion. It's why there are goddamn wolf statues everywhere. HE was the central hero. Like the Inquisitor - his counterpart. And he does tell us, explicitly, what his motivation was - Evanuris killed Mythal, which apparently cleared the way for them to do something that would imperil the entire world. He doesn't mention the Forgotten Ones anywhere as his motivation to lift the Veil, regardless what he thought of them. Likely what has happened is that the same solution that dealt with the Evanuris has also dealt with the Forgotten Ones as well, as a collateral. Basically, as Evanuris went silent, so did the Forgotten Ones. The Horror of Hormak is there specifically to establish what kind of twisted individual Ghila'nain was (and we now know that she'll be a big part of DAVe), and that there are things existing on Thedas that were result of ancient elvhen breeding experiments (including, maybe, the Qunari). And we are pretty explicitly told in Trespasser - in the Deep Road section - that the thing that motivated Solas to rebel against Evanuris is something terrifying that he's found underground, heavily implied to be related to Titans. Like... again - why give priority to this over things so clearly established in Trespasser????????? I really don't get it
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2024 15:08:39 GMT
Considering that WE KNOW that Elves use names that also mean something else (Solas = pride, Abelas = sorrow) - which is something that happens in many languages - I'd say that this isn't as much some sort of deliberate misdirection, as just... some worldbuilding. Come on. Their language is entirely made up. Anaris didn't have to mean anything unless they wanted it to. Why give that name to a Forgotten One and then use the same word in the password? They didn't have to. They could have used anything else. So, if it wasn't referring to one of his allies then that was deliberate misdirection. Sometimes blue curtains are just blue curtains, you know? And, in this regard it may be nothing more than trying to clue us into what word "Anaris" may actually mean in elvhen. Really? So what does it mean then? It isn't even as though everyone gets to hear it but only those who drank from the Well. If you do indeed go by what the Dalish myths say here then it only says that the Forbidden Ones were rivals and that both considered Fen'Harel as one of their own. Forgotten Ones. The Forbidden Ones were banished after deserting during the war with the Titans. The Dalish myth explicitly states that it was during their war with the Forgotten Ones that Fen'Harel tricked both sides and imprisoned them in their respective realms. Then the story in the Temple of Mythal says that Andruil was hunting the Forgotten Ones in their own domain when she became tainted. They call it the Abyss but in this case it does seem to refer to the deep Deep Roads and likely they retreated there to escape the other gods. However, it could refer to the Void as an alternative realm to the Fade since both would presumably have been accessible then. The Void (also known as Banalhan or place of Nothing) does seem to be where the taint originated. Now I suppose it is possible that the Forbidden Ones fled there and thus became the Forgotten Ones, except we've met three of them in previous games and they do seem to come from the Fade. We have been given the names of three Forgotten Ones and they were different from the names of the Forbidden Ones. However, the main point is that they were said to be fighting the Evanuris (Creators) when both sets were imprisoned by Fen'Harel. So, am I to believe that the Forgotten Ones had nothing to do with the rebellion against the gods? In other words there was a three way battle? I think it far more likely, having read the words of Gelduran, that Solas realised if he left them free he would be simply replacing one set of tyrants with another and that is why he imprisoned them all.
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Post by illuminated11 on Jul 26, 2024 19:34:25 GMT
Interesting. I never saw her as a naughty aunt, personally—her relationship with Morrigan is clearly abusive at best—but I never thought of her as villain in the classic sense of the term, either. She’s always been closer to the witches from MacBeth than a Maleficent type in my mind. Inscrutable and even sublime, in her own way. Naughty aunt might not be the right term, but some players clearly sees her as someone who help the hero instead of keeping in mind all the stuff Morrigan says in DAO. In fairness, even in DAO Flemeth is incredibly helpful. Everything evil we learn about her is filtered through Morrigan. And while I believe Morrigan, having to hear about it is very different from having to experience it as a player.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 27, 2024 0:27:41 GMT
Flemythal is a villain, all of the Evanuris are. They enslaved their own people, created a cult like religion around themselves, marked their followers as properties with face tattoos, had their priests be stuck with a forever devotion spell...Andruil hunted elves for sports, Ghilan'nain ( a late god) was using elf parts in whatever the hell she was doing, You had to be really careful about asking justice from Mythal because if unworthy she might have killed you etc... Elgar'nan led a war against the dwarves, led them to hide underground. The land they conquered, they also wanted to terraform but the elves discovered the "earth" had its own pull and nullifyed fade magic. No matter. Mythal kill a titans, enslaved dwarves to mine lyrium, the literal blood of their fallen gods. The elves channeled a big spell with lyrium and I guess a Titan corpse, to make the earth "bloom". What probably bloomed is the Blight.
When she screamed she was betrayed "as the world was betrayed" it's hubris. The world wasn't betrayed, she build a society with a bunch of pseudo god mages who wanted to bend EVERYTHING to their will with magic.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 27, 2024 4:42:44 GMT
Flemythal is a villain, all of the Evanuris are. They enslaved their own people, created a cult like religion around themselves, marked their followers as properties with face tattoos, had their priests be stuck with a forever devotion spell...Andruil hunted elves for sports, Ghilan'nain ( a late god) was using elf parts in whatever the hell she was doing, You had to be really careful about asking justice from Mythal because if unworthy she might have killed you etc... Elgar'nan led a war against the dwarves, led them to hide underground. The land they conquered, they also wanted to terraform but the elves discovered the "earth" had its own pull and nullifyed fade magic. No matter. Mythal kill a titans, enslaved dwarves to mine lyrium, the literal blood of their fallen gods. The elves channeled a big spell with lyrium and I guess a Titan corpse, to make the earth "bloom". What probably bloomed is the Blight. When she screamed she was betrayed "as the world was betrayed" it's hubris. The world wasn't betrayed, she build a society with a bunch of pseudo god mages who wanted to bend EVERYTHING to their will with magic. Naw, she's clearly more complex than that.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2024 7:29:55 GMT
Flemythal is a villain, all of the Evanuris are. They enslaved their own people, created a cult like religion around themselves, marked their followers as properties with face tattoos, had their priests be stuck with a forever devotion spell...Andruil hunted elves for sports, Ghilan'nain ( a late god) was using elf parts in whatever the hell she was doing, You had to be really careful about asking justice from Mythal because if unworthy she might have killed you etc... Elgar'nan led a war against the dwarves, led them to hide underground. The land they conquered, they also wanted to terraform but the elves discovered the "earth" had its own pull and nullifyed fade magic. No matter. Mythal kill a titans, enslaved dwarves to mine lyrium, the literal blood of their fallen gods. The elves channeled a big spell with lyrium and I guess a Titan corpse, to make the earth "bloom". What probably bloomed is the Blight. When she screamed she was betrayed "as the world was betrayed" it's hubris. The world wasn't betrayed, she build a society with a bunch of pseudo god mages who wanted to bend EVERYTHING to their will with magic. Contextual morality and nuance are definitley things. While there is little doubt Mythal was still one of *them* and had her own thing going on in regards to the slavery and oppression of her fellows, but that does not mean she couldn't have been better then a lot of her peers. Like if we compared her to a pure white character then yes, obviously, she is very evil...but compared to the rest of the Evanuris? Like who knows the ins and the outs of the Dwarven war with the Evanuris...but we do seem to have a lot of evidence that she really did care about her people. Solas commented on it as did Mythal in the campaign to both Solas and the Inquisitor. Plus by virtue of Elgar'nan and co putting out a hit on her we know she did something to piss off the other gods. We don't know the ins and outs of exactly what, asie from quite probably supporting Fen'Harel's rebellion, but that should speak volumes that she was objecting to what they were doing. Which then likely involved the Blight, which if what the Evanuris was doing was going to end the world and she tried to stop it...well mass death is worse then slavery.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 27, 2024 7:50:46 GMT
Flemythal is a villain, all of the Evanuris are. They enslaved their own people, created a cult like religion around themselves, marked their followers as properties with face tattoos, had their priests be stuck with a forever devotion spell...Andruil hunted elves for sports, Ghilan'nain ( a late god) was using elf parts in whatever the hell she was doing, You had to be really careful about asking justice from Mythal because if unworthy she might have killed you etc... Elgar'nan led a war against the dwarves, led them to hide underground. The land they conquered, they also wanted to terraform but the elves discovered the "earth" had its own pull and nullifyed fade magic. No matter. Mythal kill a titans, enslaved dwarves to mine lyrium, the literal blood of their fallen gods. The elves channeled a big spell with lyrium and I guess a Titan corpse, to make the earth "bloom". What probably bloomed is the Blight. When she screamed she was betrayed "as the world was betrayed" it's hubris. The world wasn't betrayed, she build a society with a bunch of pseudo god mages who wanted to bend EVERYTHING to their will with magic. Contextual morality and nuance are definitley things. While there is little doubt Mythal was still one of *them* and had her own thing going on in regards to the slavery and oppression of her fellows, but that does not mean she couldn't have been better then a lot of her peers. Like if we compared her to a pure white character then yes, obviously, she is very evil...but compared to the rest of the Evanuris? Like who knows the ins and the outs of the Dwarven war with the Evanuris...but we do seem to have a lot of evidence that she really did care about her people. Solas commented on it as did Mythal in the campaign to both Solas and the Inquisitor. Plus by virtue of Elgar'nan and co putting out a hit on her we know she did something to piss off the other gods. We don't know the ins and outs of exactly what, asie from quite probably supporting Fen'Harel's rebellion, but that should speak volumes that she was objecting to what they were doing. Which then likely involved the Blight, which if what the Evanuris was doing was going to end the world and she tried to stop it...well mass death is worse then slavery. Mythal and Solas saying she was good are not good sources since they are obviously biased towards her. We need evidence from sources that weren’t in her or the Evanuris camp to really know where they all place on the scale.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 27, 2024 8:21:02 GMT
Flemythal is a villain, all of the Evanuris are. Naw, she's clearly more complex than that. Is she really? As I've already pointed out when Solas says: "She was the best of them", that isn't really much of a recommendation. She cared for her own people because it was in her interests to. Also, as I've also pointed out, Solas made that statement after absorbing Mythal. He was far more negative towards her before he did so. He didn't see anything beneficial for the Inquisitor in drinking from the Well. They would now be bound to the will of Mythal as Abelas warned them they would be. When they tried to attack Flemeth for threatening Kieran, she controlled them, just like that. Mythal is a complex villain, just like Solas and both of them are just as ruthless in achieving their aims. Now they are bound together in a way they never were before. I have no doubt they will be helpful in dealing with the other gods but I will never make the mistake of thinking they have anything but their own selfish motivations driving them.
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