Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Nov 17, 2016 22:27:23 GMT
It seems like it opens up a really unnecessary can of worms about the level of technology in the MEU and what kinds of resources have been at the participating species' disposal all this time. Investing in a huge project like that makes some sense if all the spacefaring species in the galaxy are facing extinction, but "exploration is cool" is pretty weak given that the MEU Milky Way seems to have plenty of problems with crime, poverty, racism and the like even without Reapers in the picture. I also don't see how this idea of establishing a link back to the Milky Way is going to work. Even 1,000 or so years isn't *so* far into the future that the after-effects of Shepard's choices would have logically faded into the background, unless the status of sentient life is going to be so advanced and transformed that we'd barely even recognize it any more. While it would be gutsy for Bioware to attempt that, it's the sort of thing that could easily turn out unrelateable or just goofy. I think I might actually prefer they just stay in Andromeda for future ME games than try to somehow finesse the history of the Shepard trilogy into a universally applicable "canon." However, "exploration is cool" was the entire motivation for the Star Trek universe... why is it not appropriate for the Mass Effect one? It is. The thing is, intergalactic tech simply does not exist in the ME-verse (or didn't throughout the trilogy). And so far we haven't a clue which rectum this tech was pulled out of. Traveling more than a few dozen light years required a relay. You know that network the Reapers set up to TRAP civilizations into developing in safe, predicable paths? Yeah, it also limited how far they could spread as well! SO being able to push a bit past that frontier, to see something of the 99% of the MW that was thus far unmapped would be totally appropriate....if they hadn't burned down the whole setting and were to proud to admit it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2016 22:28:15 GMT
Clearly though, the direction Bioware wants to take this franchise right now is to Andromeda and not declare a canon ending. So, if the second bolded part above holds, then they should not " need to finally man up and pick a 'canon' ending." The only thing that would have changed had they chosen to pick a canon is that it would be someone else saying that they should have "manned up and found a way to start ME:A before the endings occurred." No matter which way they went with this, there would have been a significant group of fans unhappy with the decision. I knew this reply was incoming from someone. You've probably read enough of my posts to know that I support BioWare's right to tell their story. Whether I ever thought their insistence on dodging an "official" ending to ME3 was wise or not is irrelevant. We're going to Andromeda, and I long ago got behind that. I've been advocating an open mind toward the new game like a paid diplomat, honestly. As to the unhappy fans that would've resulted from an official ending, that was sort of my whole point about BioWare fans and their "holy games saves". It's silly. I have 4 pages of ME1 Shepards, many of them level 60 (Xbox 360). I can't recall how many that is, but it's a ton. I have half as many Shepards/saves for ME2 and ME3. I've made a lot of different choices, and it is strange to me that some get so ideologically attached to just one ending. I do have one I like better than the rest, but why should I expect BioWare to cater to my preferred game ending? It's silly. I don't want to get into a lengthy debate about this. It's not a topic on which many are likely to be swayed in either direction. I'd rather talk about Andromeda. I don't think we're into a debate... I agree with you... except for the "man up" part (and you did already say you thought the post was coming across more combative than you actually felt). I just think it's taking as much courage for Bioware to take this route as it would have to declare a singular official ending... even if they came up with an ending that was totally outside of what happened in ME3. For example, the ending that no one could have anticipated or selected... like the firing of the Crucible creating a massive wormhole that just sucked a bunch of Milky Way ships out of earth's orbit before they were affected by whatever decision Shepard made. Lol - I even proposed something similar to that one on the old BSN and it still met with as negative a response as any other suggestion I've read about.
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Post by hsomcokesniper on Nov 17, 2016 22:29:59 GMT
The primary economy of Earth right now is Neo-Liberal Capitalism. Right now, just 62 people own approximately 46 goddamn percent of all the wealth in the world, over $2 trillion, and also have $7.6 trillion stashed away in cowardly tax havens. Wat?
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 17, 2016 22:41:22 GMT
I knew this reply was incoming from someone. You've probably read enough of my posts to know that I support BioWare's right to tell their story. Whether I ever thought their insistence on dodging an "official" ending to ME3 was wise or not is irrelevant. We're going to Andromeda, and I long ago got behind that. I've been advocating an open mind toward the new game like a paid diplomat, honestly. As to the unhappy fans that would've resulted from an official ending, that was sort of my whole point about BioWare fans and their "holy games saves". It's silly. I have 4 pages of ME1 Shepards, many of them level 60 (Xbox 360). I can't recall how many that is, but it's a ton. I have half as many Shepards/saves for ME2 and ME3. I've made a lot of different choices, and it is strange to me that some get so ideologically attached to just one ending. I do have one I like better than the rest, but why should I expect BioWare to cater to my preferred game ending? It's silly. I don't want to get into a lengthy debate about this. It's not a topic on which many are likely to be swayed in either direction. I'd rather talk about Andromeda. I don't think we're into a debate... I agree with you... except for the "man up" part (and you did already say you thought the post was coming across more combative than you actually felt). I just think it's taking as much courage for Bioware to take this route as it would have to declare a singular official ending... even if they came up with an ending that was totally outside of what happened in ME3. For example, the ending that no one could have anticipated or selected... like the firing of the Crucible creating a massive wormhole that just sucked a bunch of Milky Way ships out of earth's orbit before they were affected by whatever decision Shepard made. Lol - I even proposed something similar to that one on the old BSN and it still met with as negative a response as any other suggestion I've read about. Yeah, I knew it sounded rough when I typed it. I couldn't think of a more gentle way to truly convey it, without diluting the message. The good news is that they seem to be really delivering with this new game. I know some remain highly skeptical, which I can understand. I think it's looking better than I'd ever have hoped a couple of years ago. An actually decent setup story seems to be in place, with hints of much more for those patient enough to wait for release day. I have moved from cautiously optimistic to optimistic. I still want to see gameplay, though I know they're good at that, so I have few doubts. I'm mostly just impatient about it.
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Post by Wulfram on Nov 17, 2016 22:48:53 GMT
I'm probably going to be willing to handwave this if necessary, but I do think there should be more than just Exploration behind this.
There's a ton of stuff to explore that's nearer and doesn't require flinging thousands of people off on a one-way trip into the unknown. And might offer some sort of return for any investors.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 17, 2016 22:53:18 GMT
I'm probably going to be willing to handwave this if necessary, but I do think there should be more than just Exploration behind this. There's a ton of stuff to explore that's nearer and doesn't require flinging thousands of people off on a one-way trip into the unknown. And might offer some sort of return for any investors. Definitely. I'm not sure if this will be the big head-scratcher I long expected they'd need to get us to Andromeda, or not. I've come to suspect that we'll actually discover much stronger reasoning in-game.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2016 22:55:40 GMT
However, "exploration is cool" was the entire motivation for the Star Trek universe... why is it not appropriate for the Mass Effect one? Well, they haven't gone to Andromeda on Star Trek as far as I know, nor do Starfleet go on one-way trip missions where they're never going to see their families and friends again. But the Federation also seems to be much more of an ideal society than Mass Effect's Milky Way, with poverty mostly abolished and little if any conflict between Federation worlds. Earth even has a "weather modification net," such that Picard catches onto a mystery in one episode upon discovering that someone's parents were killed in a tornado (such things apparently just don't happen in 24th century Earth). We can argue over whether that's realistic or not, but it does seem built into the premise, so it makes more sense that people are turning their attention outward. Mass Effect's galactic society is much more fractious and "messy." I could imagine some humans being a little pissed that the Andromeda Initiative's budget isn't being spent on protecting their colonies in the Traverse from batarian raids, or helping get the Tenth Street Reds off the streets. We're talking about what motivates people. The whole of the Star Trek society was based on the idea of pure exploration... no threats of any kind apparent that drove them to explore as far out into space as they could. Is it reasonable to expect that a "utopia" where everyone's needs were so well looked after, why would it be "natural" to look outward... why explore at all? If the Andromeda Initiative is privately funded by "some rich lunatic" who just loves the idea of "going where no one has gone before" would the fact that a bunch of impoverished peoples object to it matter? It hasn't stopped the likes of the Virgin and other uber wealthy individuals here in the 21st Century from doing whatever they please with their own money? Why should it be any different in the Mass Effect universe? It apparently didn't stop Jonah Elfeld from wasting a bundle of money on his hair-brained daughter... even as he was bemoaning bankruptcy because of the war in the ME3 Citadel DLC. She seemed to be crazy enough to think about funding an mission to Andromeda... so maybe that's where all his money was going. What about Rupe Elkoss... making a bundle on weapons sales... or a consortium involving Barla Von... who had insider financial information on all "the elite of the galaxy" and could keep all those transactions completely a secret (for a fee, of course)?
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Post by colfoley on Nov 17, 2016 23:14:13 GMT
I don't mind it. Yet.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 8:23:47 GMT
I'm not sure yet. It will depend on how it is explained in game.
I liked the Reaper War fan theory both because it provided a great excuse for going to Andromeda, and because it could be tied into the Asari Councilor's dialogue after Thessia. It also would neatly explain why there was no mention of it in the Shepard trilogy. It would then be a top secret project, rather than a corporate-funded adventure. Another benefit is that it would potentially get everyone on board, Quarians, Batarians, & Geth included.
That said it looks like the explanation they're going to use is that it was discovered that the Helius Cluster of Andromeda has a higher than usual number of potentially habitable worlds, and a long term goal is to establish a link (Mass Effect relay?) between the Milky Way and Andromeda. I can roll with that. I can also understand how breaking with the Reaper War gave the writers more freedom with characters' backstories. With a Reaper War exodus, everyone is a refugee. One benefit of not going that route is that you can give characters diverse motivations for joining the project.
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Post by helios969 on Nov 18, 2016 8:44:01 GMT
The primary economy of Earth right now is Neo-Liberal Capitalism. Right now, just 62 people own approximately 46 goddamn percent of all the wealth in the world, over $2 trillion, and also have $7.6 trillion stashed away in cowardly tax havens. Wat? Shh, don't make eye contact.
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Post by CrazyRah on Nov 18, 2016 9:57:22 GMT
Don't care much about it at all to be honest. It being unrelated to the reapers I really only see as a good thing
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 10:14:12 GMT
However, "exploration is cool" was the entire motivation for the Star Trek universe... why is it not appropriate for the Mass Effect one? It is. The thing is, intergalactic tech simply does not exist in the ME-verse (or didn't throughout the trilogy). And so far we haven't a clue which rectum this tech was pulled out of. Traveling more than a few dozen light years required a relay. You know that network the Reapers set up to TRAP civilizations into developing in safe, predicable paths? Yeah, it also limited how far they could spread as well! SO being able to push a bit past that frontier, to see something of the 99% of the MW that was thus far unmapped would be totally appropriate....if they hadn't burned down the whole setting and were to proud to admit it. Mac has hinted at one day doing "another story" so they haven't burned down the Milky Way itself... just given themselves over 600 years of time to elapse (perhaps double that or even 50,000 years) before going back. With enough time, anything that happened with Shepard in the Milky Way can be evolved away and forgotten. The Milky Way species can evolve . The "undiscovered" 99% of the Milky Way still exists. Of course, I don't expect that will mollify you in any way... However, I'm absolutely OK with it. Right now, I'm looking up at Andromeda in the night sky and thinking... yeah, I want to go there!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 18, 2016 12:27:30 GMT
From a narrative point of view I much prefer the escape plan idea. It's a wonderfully dramatic backdrop and also kind of heart-breaking because Shepard did end up saving the galaxy. So they didn't have to leave their loved ones behind after all (they are very likely dead though, so maybe it's best not to know).
On the other hand I understand many burned fans want to leave the reaper baggage and the ending disaster behind. Also, fleeing from the reapers on massive arks built by space magic within two years is ridiculous, especially if privately funded and secret. The exploration spirit is easier to swallow. It still makes zero sense to me why anybody would pour so much money into so risky an endeavor when most of the Mikly Way is still unexplored. But bored people have done dumber things.
And I'm pretty sure there are a number of REALLY wealthy individuals who would have the kind of money to pull that off. So how this got funded is not an issue to me. The timeline is the problem.
So I'd prefer the reaper scenario from an emotional point of view but an exploration adventure (with a possible ulterior motive) years in the making sounds less jarring. So I guess that's the better choice...
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Post by corpusdei on Nov 18, 2016 12:32:50 GMT
From a narrative point of view I much prefer the escape plan idea. It's a wonderfully dramatic backdrop and also kind of heart-breaking because Shepard did end up saving the galaxy. .... Not in my final (complete) playthrough he didn't ... I took the only sane option and shot the Starbrat.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 18, 2016 12:34:51 GMT
From a narrative point of view I much prefer the escape plan idea. It's a wonderfully dramatic backdrop and also kind of heart-breaking because Shepard did end up saving the galaxy. .... Not in my final (complete) playthrough he didn't ... I took the only sane option and shot the Starbrat. Oh right, I forgot about that. In that case... good for these foolish explorers!
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Post by bloodmagereaver on Nov 18, 2016 12:35:28 GMT
Well...
It's more likely that the founder of the Andromeda Initiative saw the Reapers on the Mars ruins but instead of telling everyone about them she decided to cover it up and label her escape plan as an exploration voyage.
Considering that Shepard was deemed insane and had her claims dismissed despite killing a Reaper in the view of the entire Citadel populace, it was probably smarter to appeal to colonial entrepreneurship than to announce the coming of an ancient race of killing machines who appeared to you in a vision.
In hindsight, considering that the Asari had been tampering with a Prothean AI that knew about the Catalyst since the dawn of their civilization, it's likely that other people found out about the Reapers long before Shepard but their stupid governments threw them under the carpet.
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 18, 2016 13:16:05 GMT
From a narrative point of view I much prefer the escape plan idea. It's a wonderfully dramatic backdrop and also kind of heart-breaking because Shepard did end up saving the galaxy. .... Not in my final (complete) playthrough he didn't ... I took the only sane option and shot the Starbrat. Sane is a bit of a stretch. The plan to stop the Reapers was centered on the Crucible. Without, it was clear this cycle would be annihilated.
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Post by TheGodlyFist on Nov 18, 2016 14:32:02 GMT
I think that we should just accept what Andromeda will be. We all know we're gonna buy it and no matter what we say we want it to be like, the game is already developed so it will not change. Personally I just want them to make interesting characters and put them on a cool journey, the how and why doesn't matter to me.
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Post by jamiecotc on Nov 18, 2016 17:52:56 GMT
BW loves to overcorrect. Don't like the Mako, take it out. Inventory is a mess, take it out. Hate elevators, take them out. Don't like the ending to Mass Effect 3? Set the next game in a new galaxy. I like the idea of a "Mars Generation" type story and I think I could buy into it a lot more if I didn't know they did it to get around the endings. I know that's meta, but it just bugs me I guess. It's not a deal breaker, but it's more like Sole Survivor Shep working for Cerberus w/out mentioning a certain Thresher Maw incident. It's just sort of nagging and annoying because I know it's there, like a rock in your shoe.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 18, 2016 17:57:31 GMT
Not in my final (complete) playthrough he didn't ... I took the only sane option and shot the Starbrat. Sane is a bit of a stretch. The plan to stop the Reapers was centered on the Crucible. Without, it was clear this cycle would be annihilated. If the reapers weren't made stupid, they would've harvested this cycle very easily even if this cycle has the crucible
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Post by bshep on Nov 18, 2016 18:39:58 GMT
From a narrative point of view I much prefer the escape plan idea. It's a wonderfully dramatic backdrop and also kind of heart-breaking because Shepard did end up saving the galaxy. .... Not in my final (complete) playthrough he didn't ... I took the only sane option and shot the Starbrat. So letting everyone die is a sane decision?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 18, 2016 19:13:14 GMT
Sane is a bit of a stretch. The plan to stop the Reapers was centered on the Crucible. Without, it was clear this cycle would be annihilated. If the reapers weren't made stupid, they would've harvested this cycle very easily even if this cycle has the crucible From "all unknowable synthetic gods" to "wongly-tested AI that killed organics thinking it preserved them wihtout any empathy or knowledge of human emotion" the Reapers were made stupid IMO.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 18, 2016 19:18:23 GMT
BW loves to overcorrect. Don't like the Mako, take it out. Inventory is a mess, take it out. Hate elevators, take them out. Don't like the ending to Mass Effect 3? Set the next game in a new galaxy. I like the idea of a "Mars Generation" type story and I think I could buy into it a lot more if I didn't know they did it to get around the endings. I know that's meta, but it just bugs me I guess. It's not a deal breaker, but it's more like Sole Survivor Shep working for Cerberus w/out mentioning a certain Thresher Maw incident. It's just sort of nagging and annoying because I know it's there, like a rock in your shoe. This, this, this. It's crazy they're still doing it considering how they should know by now that it hasn't really worked by and large. They bend over backwards to please fans WAY too much. When they her criticisms they shouldn't take it as "Oh, Linkenski hates this, let's address that by reworking that thing or remove it entirely" they should think "hm, that didn't work out as well as it should've, let's analyse what we've made and figure out how it can be done better or what changes we can make to improve the next game". I'm sure they do consider things but so often lately I feel like they're taking the "it's good enough" approach, and part of that is in how they just take exactly what fans have whined about and change the disliked element so it's the 180 degree opposite of what it was before. The problem in DAII was just as much that environments were repeated too often, so in DA:I they created massive areas and even made sure main missions didn't repeat environments when they really needed to like at the start of In Your Heart Shall Burn because the transition from launching the mission to just standing atop the mountain below the Breach was super anti-climactic for such a big turning point in the narrative. That was exactly when we'd have needed to go up that mountain again and face even harder demons.
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DAI's open world isn't just an effect of DA2. It's a consequence of Skyrim's success.
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August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Nov 18, 2016 19:33:40 GMT
It is. The thing is, intergalactic tech simply does not exist in the ME-verse (or didn't throughout the trilogy). And so far we haven't a clue which rectum this tech was pulled out of. Traveling more than a few dozen light years required a relay. You know that network the Reapers set up to TRAP civilizations into developing in safe, predicable paths? Yeah, it also limited how far they could spread as well! SO being able to push a bit past that frontier, to see something of the 99% of the MW that was thus far unmapped would be totally appropriate....if they hadn't burned down the whole setting and were to proud to admit it. Mac has hinted at one day doing "another story" so they haven't burned down the Milky Way itself... just given themselves over 600 years of time to elapse (perhaps double that or even 50,000 years) before going back. With enough time, anything that happened with Shepard in the Milky Way can be evolved away and forgotten. The Milky Way species can evolve . The "undiscovered" 99% of the Milky Way still exists. Of course, I don't expect that will mollify you in any way... However, I'm absolutely OK with it. Right now, I'm looking up at Andromeda in the night sky and thinking... yeah, I want to go there! We've already seen how events will evolve: From Commander Shepard to "The Shepard". No thanks And I take hints from mac with a huge grain of salt now. he hinted, before ME3 that we'd get more of an explanation to how the Lazarus Project worked in ME3. What we ended up getting was "Gee, it's a good thing the helmet kept the brain intact!" Blargh! And going to Anromeda is fine...EVENTUALLY!!! But the Reapers trapped us into visiting only a narrow network of planets. With the tech this project has, the entire Milky Way becomes open to us RIGHT NOW! We'd be free of the Reaper trap! The batarians and humans no longer have to fight for worlds in the Attican Traverse! The Quarians no longer have to live like vagabonds on the fringes of Council Space. The geth could build their megastructure pretty much anywhere they like! We can go ANYWHERE!!! It takes six hundred years to get to Andromeda? We could cross the MW with this tech in a fraction of that time! And not in stasis, we can be visiting countless worlds along the way!
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