The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 23, 2016 16:13:43 GMT
I think that with 'forcing' people meant that for some characters the interactions allena towards friendly without many option to set them to be more neutral or professional. Like Liara hugging Shepard by default in ME2. The problem with that what-the-crap hug is that even if Shepard wanted to throw the asari in the volcano, it happens. If someone said that to me, I would avoid that person. A hug would be the last thing on my mind. It's interesting that during the broker dlc, the player has the option to hug the asari or not. So what changed? Why couldn't that happen when seeing her on Illium? Unfortunately, the player gets another what-the-crap hug if the asari is invited up to the Normandy. I like the option for me to decide who I would want to be buddy-buddy with in MEA. It could be no one or it could be more than one character. What happened is probably that they got feedback about the hugh on Illium and opted to make it optional in LotSB.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 16:15:35 GMT
Haven't you ever had anyone who considered you to be their friend when you personally didn't feel hardly friendly at all towards them? Happens all the time IRL. It's just reality that some people will not treat you in accordance with how you feel you're treating them but will form their own "delusions" and treat you however they feel they want to. If players were given the ability to full control all the companion NPCs as well as the player, it would be an absolutely awful RPG, IMO. Having NPCs react occasionally out of line with how I feel my PC is treating them is what makes an RPG surprising and fun... for me anyways. It's still not forcing me to become a BFF of Garrus... who perhaps a little too much concern for my well being even though I hardly talk with him... any more than it forces me to not romance Ashley... who generally shows very little concern for my well being and isn't, quite frankly, very romantic in ME3. I agee, yes, there's always reactions you don't expect, and I don't have much of a problem with that. Though I usually play nice with eveyone, so it's easy for me to say. Even so, one has to admit that while sometimes you can meet someone that likes you much more than you like him/her, it doesn't go that way with everyone around you, like it happens to Shepard Her own fault for being so charismatic, I guess I disagree. Not everyone likes Shepard... Balak certainly doesn't. Udina doesn't really think much of Shepard. Even Aria can be said to be basically "all business" when it comes to Shepard... she certainly doesn't dote over him/her. You can also wind up alienating the Virmire Survivor such that you won't have to shoot them, but they will not offer to come on board the Normandy. In ME1, Conrad can go away professing to wish he'd never met Shepard. At the end of ME2, the whole squad can wind up telling Shepard he/she did the wrong thing by not destroying the collector base. If you one-night Jack, you can spend the rest of that game listening to her telling you to "F-off."
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Post by javeart on Nov 23, 2016 16:30:13 GMT
I disagree. Not everyone likes Shepard... Balak certainly doesn't. Udina doesn't really think much of Shepard. Even Aria can be said to be basically "all business" when it comes to Shepard... she certainly doesn't dote over him/her. You can also wind up alienating the Virmire Survivor such that you won't have to shoot them, but they will not offer to come on board the Normandy. In ME1, Conrad can go away professing to wish he'd never met Shepard. At the end of ME2, the whole squad can wind up telling Shepard he/she did the wrong thing by not destroying the collector base. If you one-night Jack, you can spend the rest of that game listening to her telling you to "F-off." Ok, I was exaggerating there's some people who doesn't ike Shepard... I was thinking more about squadmates, though, and I still think that for the most part, they all act like you're good friends. For instance, I never went that route with Jack (that's a very specific scenario), but does that change how she sjoins the alliance and tells you that your squad taught her team work and such?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 16:30:51 GMT
I think that with 'forcing' people meant that for some characters the interactions allena towards friendly without many option to set them to be more neutral or professional. Like Liara hugging Shepard by default in ME2. The problem with that what-the-crap hug is that even if Shepard wanted to throw the asari in the volcano, it happens. If someone said that to me, I would avoid that person. A hug would be the last thing on my mind. It's interesting that during the broker dlc, the player has the option to hug the asari or not. So what changed? Why couldn't that happen when seeing her on Illium? Unfortunately, the player gets another what-the-crap hug if the asari is invited up to the Normandy. I like the option for me to decide who I would want to be buddy-buddy with in MEA. It could be no one or it could be more than one character. ... and you've never had to just accept an overly friendly overture from someone just because the circumstances made it socially improper to react to that overture. With Liara, couldn't you head canon that Shepard just stifled her urge because Liara's assistant was watching or just being you're in the middle of Ilium's business district and throwing her down onto the trading floor would cause a disruption and you didn't want to get thrown off Illium before you recruited Thane and Samara. You certainly don't have to talk to her again after that 1st meeting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 16:38:12 GMT
I disagree. Not everyone likes Shepard... Balak certainly doesn't. Udina doesn't really think much of Shepard. Even Aria can be said to be basically "all business" when it comes to Shepard... she certainly doesn't dote over him/her. You can also wind up alienating the Virmire Survivor such that you won't have to shoot them, but they will not offer to come on board the Normandy. In ME1, Conrad can go away professing to wish he'd never met Shepard. At the end of ME2, the whole squad can wind up telling Shepard he/she did the wrong thing by not destroying the collector base. If you one-night Jack, you can spend the rest of that game listening to her telling you to "F-off." Ok, I was exaggerating there's some people who doesn't ike Shepard... I was thinking more about squadmates, though, and I still think that for the most part, they all act like you're good friends. For instance, I never went that route with Jack (that's a very specific scenario), but does that change how she sjoins the alliance and tells you that your squad taught her team work and such? If you one night Jack like that (without forcibly waiting until after doing her loyalty mission), she's not loyal in ME2. She can survive, but is far more unlikely to. As far as how that impacts ME3, I honestly don't know since I've never imported a disloyal Jack into ME3... she's always died on the SM. I'll may have to add that playthrough onto my ever growing bucket list. I know that if you wait to one-night her until after you do her loyalty mission, she is not as hostile to Shepard. Rather than telling him to "F-off" she'll just say that he's "just pissing around and she doesn't want to play." In that case, during their conversation in Grissom, she behaves much the same way as if their friends; but, if Shepard indicates that she looks good, she'll accuse him of just wanting to pin her to the bulkhead again. Still, the player does have the option of not doing Grissom at all... in which case Jack will die in ME3.
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Post by javeart on Nov 23, 2016 16:57:24 GMT
So I've being saying all this time how ok I'm with forced best friends and with everyone being nice to Shepard and all, because I usually play a very friendly Shepard, and thinking about it just know I remembered how annoying was one playthrough in which I went very anti-cerberus and completely ignored Miranda and Jacob, when I get to kill Kay Leng and suddenyl Shepard says that's for Miranda you son of a bitch... WTF? She died because I didn't even bother to find out what she needed when Kelly told she wanted to talk to me it was completely immersion breaking, it's true, I regreted I hadn't have her killed in the SM yes, if that would have been my canon Shepard I'd not be happy about it, I guess
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 23, 2016 17:40:09 GMT
Honestly, I prefer Dragon Age system where everyone can be friends or rival depending on how you treat them and if you talk to them at all. And they can leave you if you don't gain their loyalty and you can actually be involved in all of their personal narrative or don't.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 17:40:27 GMT
So I've being saying all this time how ok I'm with forced best friends and with everyone being nice to Shepard and all, because I usually play a very friendly Shepard, and thinking about it just know I remembered how annoying was one playthrough in which I went very anti-cerberus and completely ignored Miranda and Jacob, when I get to kill Kay Leng and suddenyl Shepard says that's for Miranda you son of a bitch... WTF? She died because I didn't even bother to find out what she needed when Kelly told she wanted to talk to me it was completely immersion breaking, it's true, I regreted I hadn't have her killed in the SM yes, if that would have been my canon Shepard I'd not be happy about it, I guess I agree... I tend to view those sort of out of the blue lines like that a bugs though... as opposed to "forcing" a friendship on the player. There are many, many lines in the games that just don't make sense under some circumstances... yet they get uttered anyways. Like, Shepard being able to ask Anderson about Kohoku after doing the mission Binthu. Shepard asks where he/she can find Kohoku (totally illogical since Shepard knows Kohoku is dead) and Anderson tells him/her that he last saw Kohoku in the Citadel tower asking about Banes. Another is that there is no way for Shepard to tell Miranda and Jacob that he/she didn't choose a councillor in ME1. During the Citadel party, if you go back to Ashly in ME3 after having romanced Miranda (by locking in with Ashley before talking with Miranda), Miranda and Shepard will still talk about watching each other sleep.
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Post by javeart on Nov 23, 2016 17:57:19 GMT
I agree... I tend to view those sort of out of the blue lines like that a bugs though... as opposed to "forcing" a friendship on the player. There are many, many lines in the games that just don't make sense under some circumstances... yet they get uttered anyways. Like, Shepard being able to ask about Anderson Kohoku after doing the mission Binthu. Shepard asks where he/she can find Kohoku (totally illogical since Shepard knows Kohoku is dead) and Anderson tells him/her that he last saw Kohoku in the Citadel tower asking about Banes. Another is that there is no way for Shepard to tell Miranda and Jacob that he/she didn't choose a councillor in ME1. During the Citadel party, if you go back to Ashly in ME3 after having romanced Miranda (by locking in with Ashley before talking with Miranda), Miranda and Shepard will still talk about watching each other sleep. I didn't know about any of those... Which is a good thing, because finding that kind of little incoherences in dialogues bothers me more than it should
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 18:07:21 GMT
I agree... I tend to view those sort of out of the blue lines like that a bugs though... as opposed to "forcing" a friendship on the player. There are many, many lines in the games that just don't make sense under some circumstances... yet they get uttered anyways. Like, Shepard being able to ask about Anderson Kohoku after doing the mission Binthu. Shepard asks where he/she can find Kohoku (totally illogical since Shepard knows Kohoku is dead) and Anderson tells him/her that he last saw Kohoku in the Citadel tower asking about Banes. Another is that there is no way for Shepard to tell Miranda and Jacob that he/she didn't choose a councillor in ME1. During the Citadel party, if you go back to Ashly in ME3 after having romanced Miranda (by locking in with Ashley before talking with Miranda), Miranda and Shepard will still talk about watching each other sleep. I didn't know about any of those... Which is a good thing, because finding that kind of little incoherences in dialogues bothers me more than it should They are bound to happen though, when you consider just how much variable dialogue there is in one of these games... and, I imagine, Mass Effect involved less of it to keep track of than Dragon Age (but I don't know for sure because I've, quite frankly, never been able to get into Dragon Age... just not my era. I don't think people generally give the Mass Effect Trilogy credit for the character relationships being as variable as they really are. They get locked into the idea of the binary P/R system and don't tend to experiment with making different run throughs experimenting with different parts of the character relationships because they feel it breaks with Shepard's paragon or renegade status. They don't think about Shepard being a paragon who, for example, would one-night Jack just because he's also the sort of guy who's, say, afraid to commit to a relationship because dying is always something at his doorstep. Anyways, ME:A is going to break away from the paragon/renegade setup; so, hopefully, more players will feel freer to explore the variious nuances within the relationships to a fuller degree than they did with the ME Trilogy.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 23, 2016 18:15:10 GMT
... and you've never had to just accept an overly friendly overture from someone just because the circumstances made it socially improper to react to that overture. Not from an alien or from someone I don't care about Here's a headcannon. After the hug, my Shepard heads back to the SR2, throws the armor in a furnace,then takes a shower to get rid of the smell and whatever else the alien had, then has Dr.Chakwas scan the body to make sure there's no more contaminates on the body Why is the what-the-crap hug limited to the asari? I know if Ashley/Kaidan are romanced, they hug Shepard on Horizon, whereas its just a handshake if not romanced. How come my Shepard couldn't hug Udina? How about Conrad? Or Chakwas?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 19:10:01 GMT
... and you've never had to just accept an overly friendly overture from someone just because the circumstances made it socially improper to react to that overture. Not from an alien or from someone I don't care about Here's a headcannon. After the hug, my Shepard heads back to the SR2, throws the armor in a furnace,then takes a shower to get rid of the smell and whatever else the alien had, then has Dr.Chakwas scan the body to make sure there's no more contaminates on the body Why is the what-the-crap hug limited to the asari? I know if Ashley/Kaidan are romanced, they hug Shepard on Horizon, whereas its just a handshake if not romanced. How come my Shepard couldn't hug Udina? How about Conrad? Or Chakwas? ... and how come Shepard couldn't kiss Ashley or Kaidan on Horizon like he was able to be kissed by Jack at Grissom or like he was able to optionally kiss Jack in the shuttle when leaving Grissom? How come he/she couldn't force a passionate kiss on Liara on Illium if romanced? The people writing the game can't possibly write in every sort of level of emotion that different players might want to playthrough showing to each and every NPC in the game. It just makes the game too unwieldy. I think Bioware has put more variations into Mass Effect than people generally give them credit for?... that's just my humble opinion. Can they improve upon what they did in the Trilogy?... certainly. Did they do it better in DA?... I don't know because I don't play DA.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 23, 2016 19:27:07 GMT
The people writing the game can't possibly write in every sort of level of emotion that different players might want to playthrough showing to each and every NPC in the game. Apparently it was ok for them to write in the alien to hug Shepard and not anyone else unless Shepard romanced Ashley/Kaidan.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 21:00:57 GMT
The people writing the game can't possibly write in every sort of level of emotion that different players might want to playthrough showing to each and every NPC in the game. Apparently it was ok for them to write in the alien to hug Shepard and not anyone else unless Shepard romanced Ashley/Kaidan. Not perfectly OK... and I did say above that they could certainly improve on what they did. However, it is neither enough reason for me to flip out about it nor enough reason, I believe, to prove that they "force" the player into universally being in a BFF relationship overall with Liara or Garrus. In spite of the one hug with Liara (which I can decide to dismiss as I described above), if I don't talk to Liara or Garrus and talk regularly with Kaidan or Ashley instead, I will feel as though my Shepard is better friends with either of them than Liara or Garrus. The player still has some control over who they develop their deepest friendship with. I don't know how DA handles it. Do you have some sort of selection menu ahead of playing the game where you can check off who among a list of the NPCs you want to like you and who you want to dislike you? I'm starting to get that sort of impression about it.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 23, 2016 23:51:11 GMT
Every other hugs (or patting?) are conditional except for default Liara's hug. Talitha requires you to take the paragon route. Tali requires a paragon interrupt. Ashley and Kaidan required to be romanced. Khalisah, Steve and Anderson is a paragon interrupt. All these are optional.
Now I only recruit Liara last in ME1 so that I could only have one mindmelding scene in the entire trilogy. Its not an innocent extracting information thing, its an act of intimacy. Basically you have no choice but to mentally deflower a young asari virgin in front of a room full of people. Same as you have no choice but to hug her on Ilium just to gain access to Samara and Thane. No choice but to have her on Normandy. No choice but to take her to Thessia and hear how its impossible for her people to be uplifted by the Protheans and its world shaking only to be described differently by all of available companions. Liara is the character served to you regardless if you want her or not.
In DA, even if a character is obviously likable and BFF, say Varric, you can still make them hate you. And they can leave you if you don't regain their trust and loyalty.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 0:13:24 GMT
Every other hugs (or patting?) are conditional except for default Liara's hug. Talitha requires you to take the paragon route. Tali requires a paragon interrupt. Ashley and Kaidan required to be romanced. Khalisah, Steve and Anderson is a paragon interrupt. All these are optional. Now I only recruit Liara last in ME1 so that I could only have one mindmelding scene in the entire trilogy. Its not an innocent extracting information thing, its an act of intimacy. Basically you have no choice but to mentally deflower a young asari virgin in front of a room full of people. Same as you have no choice but to hug her on Ilium just to gain access to Samara and Thane. No choice but to have her on Normandy. No choice but to take her to Thessia and hear how its impossible for her people to be uplifted by the Protheans and its world shaking only to be described differently by all of available companions. Liara is the character served to you regardless if you want her or not. In DA, even if a character is obviously likable and BFF, say Varric, you can still make them hate you. And they can leave you if you don't regain their trust and loyalty. If Thane is alive in ME3 and you talk to him in the hospital, you wind up kissing him on the cheek to thank him for in generosity in watching the Virmire Survivor. It doesn't matter whether or not Shepard is male or female and, if female, whether she romanced Thane or not. Wrex will also pat and greet Shepard warmly in Tuchanka in ME2 and Shepard has no choice but to stand there and allow Wrex to touch him/her. There is also no way for Shepard to tell James to pick up the VS rather than him/her tenderly telling him/her that he/she is getting them "out of there" even if Shepard was completely angry and anal to them on Mars prior to that point.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 24, 2016 0:21:53 GMT
If Thane is alive in ME3 and you talk to him in the hospital, you wind up kissing him on the cheek to thank him for in generosity in watching the Virmire Survivor. It doesn't matter whether or not Shepard is male or female and, if female, whether she romanced Thane or not. Wrex will also pat and greet Shepard warmly in Tuchanka in ME2 and Shepard has no choice but to stand there and allow Wrex to touch him/her. Wait what? When does this happen?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 0:23:10 GMT
If Thane is alive in ME3 and you talk to him in the hospital, you wind up kissing him on the cheek to thank him for in generosity in watching the Virmire Survivor. It doesn't matter whether or not Shepard is male or female and, if female, whether she romanced Thane or not. Wrex will also pat and greet Shepard warmly in Tuchanka in ME2 and Shepard has no choice but to stand there and allow Wrex to touch him/her. Wait what? When does this happen? In ME3 when you first talk to Thane at the window in the lobby of the Huerta Memorial Hospital. At 0:49 in the above video... They did try to cut the scene a bit from what FemShep does, but you'd still have to be pretty stupid not to recognize it as a kiss on the cheek.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 24, 2016 0:28:06 GMT
If Thane is alive in ME3 and you talk to him in the hospital, you wind up kissing him on the cheek to thank him for in generosity in watching the Virmire Survivor. It doesn't matter whether or not Shepard is male or female and, if female, whether she romanced Thane or not. That has never happened in any playthrough that I had Thane alive in ME3. The only thing Shepard does is give him a pat on the shoulder when talking about Ashley/Kaidan. Don't know if its different if he's romanced. Isn't shaking a hand and a pat on the upper arm different from a hug?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 0:39:23 GMT
If Thane is alive in ME3 and you talk to him in the hospital, you wind up kissing him on the cheek to thank him for in generosity in watching the Virmire Survivor. It doesn't matter whether or not Shepard is male or female and, if female, whether she romanced Thane or not. That has never happened in any playthrough that I had Thane alive in ME3. The only thing Shepard does is give him a pat on the shoulder when talking about Ashley/Kaidan. Don't know if its different if he's romanced. Isn't shaking a hand and a pat on the upper arm different from a hug? With Wrex, it's still a best buddy move between men that some men might object to... but Shepard doesn't have that option. Shepard could have hated Wrex in ME1 but has no option to express that either. With Thane - As I said above, you'd have to be pretty stupid to see that "lean in" and the set of his lips by a Male Shepard with Thane as just a pat on the shoulder... and a male Shepard can't romance Thane. A FemShep who has not romanced Thane goes through the same motion. IMO, it's an error on Bioware's part to have not cut the scene differently... i.e. removed the entire pat of the shoulder. Why is any touching in that circumstance necessary? People only flip out over Liara's hug though... and, IMO, that's just overreacting. The hug doesn't bother me... and like you... I heavily favor romancing the humans only in my playthroughs. I've already leveled some criticism at them - yes, they could certainly do better... and I believe I'm being fair and reasonable. I have no intention of buying into your capital case over it... so you'll have to carry one without any further responses from me on this issue.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 24, 2016 0:48:07 GMT
With Wrex, it's still a best buddy move between men that some men might object to... but Shepard doesn't have that option. Shepard could have hated Wrex in ME1 but has no option to express that either. I wouldn't say much if Shepard and the asari shook hands Call it what you want. There's no kissing on the cheek. Again. A handshake is very different from a hug.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 24, 2016 1:12:57 GMT
Wait what? When does this happen? In ME3 when you first talk to Thane at the window in the lobby of the Huerta Memorial Hospital. At 0:49 in the above video... They did try to cut the scene a bit from what FemShep does, but you'd still have to be pretty stupid not to recognize it as a kiss on the cheek. Its the exact same animation for Khalisah, Steve, Anderson.... there's no kiss on the cheeks
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954
November 2016
midnightwolf
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
BlackSassyWolf
BlackSassyWolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Nov 24, 2016 2:13:44 GMT
Hello all. I'm new to the forum and the ME world, since I only started playing the games in October. But I have to say, I'd rather we didn't have a designated best friend -human or otherwise- in ME:A. It should be up to the player to choose.
As for Liara......I really don't like her and how MY Shepard is forced to like and interact with her so much. It completely takes the role play aspect away.
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217
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3,339
General Mahad
You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
2,074
August 2016
vaas
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Post by General Mahad on Nov 24, 2016 2:15:55 GMT
If Liam is anything like the Liam I'm thinking of, I'll be happy to have him as a designated BFF.
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♨ Retired
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0
Nov 25, 2024 12:42:54 GMT
26,299
themikefest
15,635
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
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Post by themikefest on Nov 24, 2016 2:17:50 GMT
Hello all. I'm new to the forum and the ME world, since I only started playing the games in October. But I have to say, I'd rather we didn't have a designated best friend -human or otherwise- in ME:A. It should be up to the player to choose. As for Liara......I really don't like her and how MY Shepard is forced to like and interact with her so much. It completely takes the role play aspect away. If interested, you can post your playthrough in this thread.
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