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Post by dutchsghost7 on Jan 3, 2017 19:15:38 GMT
Anybody else think this is too low? Besides the travellers in the nexus the total number of colonists is at 80,000 which is too small imo to colonize dozens of worlds and presumably be at war with a giant force like the Khet. It doesn't seem feasible. Thoughts? This is the second time that I have seen the Khett references as 'some Giant force' with zero evidence to actually support it. Unless I missed something. I am in fact undder the opposite impression and think the Khett, or at least the Khett who is hostile to us, are relatively small in number...or technologically primitive. To the matter at hand, *barring no major disaster of some sort. The AI seems feasible enough. 20,000 people per ship with the....numbers on the Nexus though off the top of my head I really can't think of the specifics...is enough to start a functioning civilization on the other side. You also have to remember that one of the main objectives of the AI is to find a way of establishing a much more rapid connection to the Milkyway. They probably thought to bring in more people after they showed everyone in the Galaxy that it was possible. >rapid connection to the Milky Way Doubtful since bioware wants to get away from the Milky Way. Your point makes sense but I highly doubt bioware would go with that goal being accomplished. |
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Post by colfoley on Jan 3, 2017 19:17:29 GMT
This is the second time that I have seen the Khett references as 'some Giant force' with zero evidence to actually support it. Unless I missed something. I am in fact undder the opposite impression and think the Khett, or at least the Khett who is hostile to us, are relatively small in number...or technologically primitive. To the matter at hand, *barring no major disaster of some sort. The AI seems feasible enough. 20,000 people per ship with the....numbers on the Nexus though off the top of my head I really can't think of the specifics...is enough to start a functioning civilization on the other side. You also have to remember that one of the main objectives of the AI is to find a way of establishing a much more rapid connection to the Milkyway. They probably thought to bring in more people after they showed everyone in the Galaxy that it was possible. >rapid connection to the Milky Way Doubtful since bioware wants to get away from the Milky Way. Your point makes sense but I highly doubt bioware would go with that goal being accomplished. I don't think its going to be accomplished any time soon in game, but that is already one of the stated objectives of the Andromeda Initiative is to find a way of travel between the two galaxies. |
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Muddy Boots
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Post by Muddy Boots on Jan 3, 2017 19:22:59 GMT
I agree. I think the total comes to like 25K since some are traveling on the Nexus. Some probably will not have survived the trip-relatively few. Some will die in combat most likely, and some have gone rogue so who knows what they'll do. But still. They're going to have to breed like bunnies to actually establish a colony that isn't going to die out in a year. Yes they would need to breed like rabbits and women would not at all be placed in combat roles due to risk of death in the battlefield. But this is bioware and female representation is 50/50 for combat roles even though it shouldn't for this scenario since they should be breeders. Yep. They don't want to go back to the days when women were treated like property and kept at home to spit out kids. Even though there was a practical reason. In the 22nd century, at least they could have safer jobs aboard the Nexus. I definitely understand the reasoning by letting women be combatants in a video game. I wouldn't want to be forced to play a male only even though I plan to play both. Maybe they've got some women who are set aside as surrogates? That would be to "Handmaiden's Tale" but possible. |
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Jan 3, 2017 19:24:35 GMT
I think people are seriously overestimating the number of people required to form a society, especially when you don't need thousands of faceless laborers performing agricultural work because of tech.
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 3, 2017 19:33:09 GMT
I agree. I think the total comes to like 25K since some are traveling on the Nexus. Some probably will not have survived the trip-relatively few. Some will die in combat most likely, and some have gone rogue so who knows what they'll do. But still. They're going to have to breed like bunnies to actually establish a colony that isn't going to die out in a year. Yes they would need to breed like rabbits and women would not at all be placed in combat roles due to risk of death in the battlefield. But this is bioware and female representation is 50/50 for combat roles even though it shouldn't for this scenario since they should be breeders. You honestly think they have the technology to travel to a different galaxy but don't have the technology to create artificial wombs? We aren't that far from achieving it in real life. |
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 3, 2017 19:38:47 GMT
They pour gigantic effort and funds into AI, but don't have the patience to gather up appropriate crew members with verified background? I find that hard to believe. Their chief of security became a warlord. That doesn't read out as competent employee selection. "Hard to believe" is pretty much the Ai's logo. "Displays personal initiative and 'outside-the-box' thinking to solve problems"  |
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 3, 2017 19:43:07 GMT
I think people are seriously overestimating the number of people required to form a society, especially when you don't need thousands of faceless laborers performing agricultural work because of tech. You will need people who know how to run that tech, repair it when it breaks down, fabricate new parts. You will also need soldiers and police forces to maintain security. Diplomats for first contact situations. Scientists and engineers to terraform worlds to be more habitable. And so on and so forth. And unless there's a lot of kids among those 20,000 (which would dramatically reduce the starting labor pool) it will be an entire generation before you can effectively replace ANYONE. |
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Jan 3, 2017 19:46:29 GMT
That doesn't take millions of people. There are tons of city-states throughout history with analogues of everything you are describing that were that size or smaller and those even *did* need the horde of faceless laborers.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 3, 2017 19:47:26 GMT
I think people are seriously overestimating the number of people required to form a society, especially when you don't need thousands of faceless laborers performing agricultural work because of tech. You will need people who know how to run that tech, repair it when it breaks down, fabricate new parts. You will also need soldiers and police forces to maintain security. Diplomats for first contact situations. Scientists and engineers to terraform worlds to be more habitable. And so on and so forth. And unless there's a lot of kids among those 20,000 (which would dramatically reduce the starting labor pool) it will be an entire generation before you can effectively replace ANYONE. All of which could all have been easily solved with the introduction of the Rachni as your labor/engineering/policing force. But yeah, unless all the future colonists are going to be tank born and emerge fully grown, there is going to be quite the gap in usable replacements. |
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 3, 2017 19:53:14 GMT
As I understand it the European population in the Eastern US' Thirteen Colonies during the 17th Century was approximately doubling every 10 years from 2,000 people in 1625 to 270,000 in 1702. That colony project had the benefit of continued arrivals from the 'old world' something the Andromeda Initiative will not have. Clearly, breeding programs will be an element, but with infant mortality rates controlled through medical advances it is not necessary to produce Victorian levels of offspring. Two key factors for success will be: - Sufficient genetic diversity to support a viable population, of anywhere between:
160 for genetic viability and - www.newscientist.com/article/dn1936-magic-number-for-space-pioneers-calculated/
40,000 individuals for full colonization - www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a10369/how-many-people-does-it-take-to-colonize-another-star-system-16654747/
In short, we're in the right ballpark - The second and huge factor is what do you meet in terms of environment and indigenous life when you get there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 3, 2017 19:56:30 GMT
You will need people who know how to run that tech, repair it when it breaks down, fabricate new parts. You will also need soldiers and police forces to maintain security. Diplomats for first contact situations. Scientists and engineers to terraform worlds to be more habitable. And so on and so forth. And unless there's a lot of kids among those 20,000 (which would dramatically reduce the starting labor pool) it will be an entire generation before you can effectively replace ANYONE. All of which could all have been easily solved with the introduction of the Rachni as your labor/engineering/policing force. Yeah, or Geth. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 3, 2017 20:06:10 GMT
All of which could all have been easily solved with the introduction of the Rachni as your labor/engineering/policing force. Yeah, or Geth. True, though the Rachni would arguably need less resources to achieve the same results, and could become self sufficient with far less input; assuming that you were starting with a single queen/network. But I guess Alliance security officers with a disciplinary records and violent battle toads are a much better choice for your crew.  |
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 3, 2017 20:11:34 GMT
Their chief of security became a warlord. That doesn't read out as competent employee selection. "Hard to believe" is pretty much the Ai's logo. "Displays personal initiative and 'outside-the-box' thinking to solve problems" I don't follow. |
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 3, 2017 20:17:08 GMT
The Arks are not logical, they are just there so we can have a new Mass Effect game. So whether the number is 2,000, 20,000 or 200,000 probably doesn't make much difference to the plot  It kinda does. We'll have population of small city, that's enough to create cozy colony somewhere, but to make use of entire world? Not even close. I know it's Bioware we are talking about, but without Nexus pouring millions of artificially bred milkies every year they have no chance of challenging any native space fairing species in the long run. Could give writers interesting angle on such society, but again I doubt they'll go this route, this probably will be just ignored in future installments. |
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 3, 2017 20:20:22 GMT
So whether the number is 2,000, 20,000 or 200,000 probably doesn't make much difference to the plot It kinda does. We'll have population of small city, that's enough to create cozy colony somewhere, but to make use of entire world? Not even close. I know it's Bioware we are talking about, but without Nexus pouring millions of artificially bred milkies every year they have no chance of challenging any native space fairing species in the long run. Could give writers interesting angle on such society, but again I doubt they'll go this route, this probably will be just ignored in future installments. That's kinda the point of the Nexus, no? It's so massive that you can use to explain things in the future that you did not planned for. It will certainly happen with other races that won't be in this game. |
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 3, 2017 20:22:47 GMT
So whether the number is 2,000, 20,000 or 200,000 probably doesn't make much difference to the plot It kinda does. We'll have population of small city, that's enough to create cozy colony somewhere, but to make use of entire world? Not even close. I know it's Bioware we are talking about, but without Nexus pouring millions of artificially bred milkies every year they have no chance of challenging any native space fairing species in the long run. Could give writers interesting angle on such society, but again I doubt they'll go this route, this probably will be just ignored in future installments. 20,000 isn't even a city, really. More like a large town |
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 3, 2017 20:26:33 GMT
It kinda does. We'll have population of small city, that's enough to create cozy colony somewhere, but to make use of entire world? Not even close. I know it's Bioware we are talking about, but without Nexus pouring millions of artificially bred milkies every year they have no chance of challenging any native space fairing species in the long run. Could give writers interesting angle on such society, but again I doubt they'll go this route, this probably will be just ignored in future installments. That's kinda the point of the Nexus, no? It's so massive that you can use to explain things in the future that you did not planned for. It will certainly happen with other races that won't be in this game. "Maker! How many stowaways did we have on the Nexus? Was there any security on this project at all!?"  Because SOMETHING clearly happened, and the security chief showed personal initiative and went outside the normal chain of command to become a warlord and... ...ah nevermind  |
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Post by longshadow on Jan 3, 2017 20:28:25 GMT
Well, for the religious people 20,000 seems like a lot, right?....they only need an Adam and an Eve...
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 3, 2017 20:41:53 GMT
It kinda does. We'll have population of small city, that's enough to create cozy colony somewhere, but to make use of entire world? Not even close. I know it's Bioware we are talking about, but without Nexus pouring millions of artificially bred milkies every year they have no chance of challenging any native space fairing species in the long run. Could give writers interesting angle on such society, but again I doubt they'll go this route, this probably will be just ignored in future installments. That's kinda the point of the Nexus, no? Always thought it's just (mini) Citadel 2.0. There are 200k C-Sec officers which is more than entire AI population. AI briefings seem to ignore underpopulation at the moment and I can see writers ignoring it in future, but I have to notice that briefings are made with in-game logic in head and some sort of "reliable route" AI promised. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 3, 2017 20:48:21 GMT
I mean, we're talking a bunch of people that thought an Alliance officer with disciplinary problems would make for an excellent chief of security. You'd be surprised.  Sometimes the best chiefs of security are those a little rough around the edges... |
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Jan 3, 2017 21:40:20 GMT
That doesn't take millions of people. There are tons of city-states throughout history with analogues of everything you are describing that were that size or smaller and those even *did* need the horde of faceless laborers. Apples and oranges. City states in antiquity and the medieval age are less complex than colonies in a space opera. You need more people or at the very least cloning, or vat breeding program for proper replacement. For human colonies to survive in andromeda before they can "connect" with the Milky Way they'd need a fertility rate of above 10. In contrast, the highest fertility rate in the world today is about 7 for some African nation I forgot the name of. |
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Kantr
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Playing a lot of Divinity Original Sin 2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kantr on Jan 3, 2017 21:41:17 GMT
Say 7,000 people per world, a small town for each of them.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jan 3, 2017 21:43:07 GMT
Giving us a small number of colonists to watch over in Andromeda sounds like they are trying the same thing all over. Trying to force the narrative to depict the undisputed ubermensch of the the setting in the light of the scrappy under dog is not going to work out too well I fear. It really doesn't help that the whole Andromeda Initiative is human funded and the villain in the announcement trailer even said "Now I know what makes you special" to our human protagonist either. We don't actually know that the "villain" in the announcement trailer was talking to our human protagonists. They switch voice-over all the time in trailers for dramatic effect. In face, on Twitter when someone made a comment about that villain and referred to them as "he" Mike Gamble replied back "He?" insinuating that that villain is perhaps female. And we don't even know what the villain in that soundbite was referring to. They could have been talking about PeeBee or anyone else, or maybe just the Pathfinder because the devs said there would be an in-game reason the Pathfinder could respec into different classes, so maybe there is something that makes the Pathfinders special. At any rate, taking that bit of sound and video from a theatrical trailer and using it as validation for your point it reaching. Very reaching. |
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 3, 2017 21:47:01 GMT
Say 7,000 people per world, a small town for each of them. Which would be absolutely destroyed from orbit by the first hostile ship to come along  |
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Raga
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Raga on Jan 3, 2017 21:49:02 GMT
That doesn't take millions of people. There are tons of city-states throughout history with analogues of everything you are describing that were that size or smaller and those even *did* need the horde of faceless laborers. Apples and oranges. City states in antiquity and the medieval age are less complex than colonies in a space opera. You need more people or at the very least cloning, or vat breeding program for proper replacement. For human colonies to survive in andromeda before they can "connect" with the Milky Way they'd need a fertility rate of above 10. In contrast, the highest fertility rate in the world today is about 7 for some African nation I forgot the name of. Not really. Cities take multiple varieties of skilled tradesmen, craftsmen, administrators, and peacekeepers. This has always been and always will be the case. The main difference is that lots of the mundane manual labor can now be done by automation and there isn't a horribly high infant mortality rate due to poor medicine and disease. People are making it more complicated than it needs to be. We aren't going to be building the Citadel in Andromeda, at least not for a long time. Something more like Jamestown is where you start. Except imagine those people actually prepared properly and had space opera tech. |
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Be seeing you.
