Kantr
N3
Playing a lot of Divinity Original Sin 2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Playing a lot of Divinity Original Sin 2
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Post by Kantr on Jan 3, 2017 21:49:09 GMT
It kinda does. We'll have population of small city, that's enough to create cozy colony somewhere, but to make use of entire world? Not even close. I know it's Bioware we are talking about, but without Nexus pouring millions of artificially bred milkies every year they have no chance of challenging any native space fairing species in the long run. Could give writers interesting angle on such society, but again I doubt they'll go this route, this probably will be just ignored in future installments. 20,000 isn't even a city, really. More like a large town By modern standards, back in the middle ages that would be a large city.
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Jan 3, 2017 22:08:48 GMT
20,000 is certainly enough in terms of genetic diversity; and which given the future would/will probably be augmented by a "seed bank." How much space would be required for 50,000 male/female sperm/egg samples? Not much relative to the space requirements for 20K people...even maintained in cryo. So that would almost be a guaranteed addition to any such venture. Then again 20K is not enough to play conquistador either so as a thought exercise bounded in reality, we wouldn't want to be frivolous with peoples lives. You'd want to strive for peaceful coexistence for the next several generations to solidify the population and establish a strong foothold. And I think Bio's push toward exploration follows that. I really don't expect this game will put us into a total war type scenario unless we are significantly more advanced than the inhabitants...which doesn't appear to be the case.
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Post by Muddy Boots on Jan 3, 2017 22:18:20 GMT
>rapid connection to the Milky Way Doubtful since bioware wants to get away from the Milky Way. Your point makes sense but I highly doubt bioware would go with that goal being accomplished. I don't think its going to be accomplished any time soon in game, but that is already one of the stated objectives of the Andromeda Initiative is to find a way of travel between the two galaxies. Agreed. They did say that. But we all know that Something Will Happen to prevent achieving that goal for a very long time. Though it has been 600 years since they started all this. But maybe somehow, some way, the problem lies in the Milky Way that has nothing to do with Reapers or Cerberus. Maybe some fool lost the directives or something. "Now where did I put that data pad with the instructions?" Or over 600 years the chain of information just sort of broke down and people forgot about it or assumed the Nexus and friends all perished.
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Post by Muddy Boots on Jan 3, 2017 22:24:42 GMT
Yes they would need to breed like rabbits and women would not at all be placed in combat roles due to risk of death in the battlefield. But this is bioware and female representation is 50/50 for combat roles even though it shouldn't for this scenario since they should be breeders. You honestly think they have the technology to travel to a different galaxy but don't have the technology to create artificial wombs? We aren't that far from achieving it in real life. They could do that. And it could be viable, but it also might be time consuming and take up too much space to do on a large enough scale to be worthwhile. And then there's the raising of the rug rats. Someone's got to do that, though they could go to the bio parents or adoptions. I have a feeling that as high tech as that is, because of space constraints they may not think it's worth taking all that with them. They're only taking minimal supplies-just enough to get there, pretty much. Everything else has to be found somehow. In real life we have a plan to colonize Mars. Unlike Andromeda, of course the first few colonists will be followed by others. But they will have very minimal resources when/if they do it.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 3, 2017 23:01:25 GMT
Giving us a small number of colonists to watch over in Andromeda sounds like they are trying the same thing all over. Trying to force the narrative to depict the undisputed ubermensch of the the setting in the light of the scrappy under dog is not going to work out too well I fear. It really doesn't help that the whole Andromeda Initiative is human funded and the villain in the announcement trailer even said "Now I know what makes you special" to our human protagonist either. We don't actually know that the "villain" in the announcement trailer was talking to our human protagonists. They switch voice-over all the time in trailers for dramatic effect. In face, on Twitter when someone made a comment about that villain and referred to them as "he" Mike Gamble replied back "He?" insinuating that that villain is perhaps female. And we don't even know what the villain in that soundbite was referring to. They could have been talking about PeeBee or anyone else, or maybe just the Pathfinder because the devs said there would be an in-game reason the Pathfinder could respec into different classes, so maybe there is something that makes the Pathfinders special. At any rate, taking that bit of sound and video from a theatrical trailer and using it as validation for your point it reaching. Very reaching. So take out the announcement trailer bit and you are still left with massive indicators pointing to humanity being the special, Mary Sue species again. Whether that is tied to a specific character saying such, or just the fact that it will be humans, and humans alone who are the driving force behind the Andromeda Initiative, the ones who will have an inordinate power and political sway in a supposed joint species effort, or the fact that devs themselves have even said that it will be up to humanity, and our human Pathfinder, to save everyone from the main foe in Mass Effect: Andromeda. Etc. I mean just look back at the previous trilogy, there is not one noteworthy thing that the other species do in the present day galaxy that humanity hasn't already done, and done better. We are economically bending the Volus over the bed despite the former being the ones who have created the groundwork for the state of said galactic economy and have been in charge of it for several thousand years. We are apparently the only species smart enough to conceive of the concept of a carrier class ship for fleet actions. We are the only new species in over two thousand years to even be considered for Spectre status, let alone a seat on the council. We are the only species to create a universal medical treatment that works across species lines (Medigel) despite having nowhere near the level of xenobiology that the rest of the galaxy would have. Our very genetic makeup is even superior to all the other species of the galaxy according to the lore. We have better scientists and covert operatives than even the Salarians; despite both of those being their 'thing'. Our Biotic potential rivals even that of the Asari, despite that being their 'thing'. We trounce the Truians in military acumen despite that being their 'thing'. We dominate the Volus economically despite that being their 'thing'. Etc. You are correct that we don't know all that will be going down in the plot for Mass Effect: Andromeda, but all the current info, and BioWare's previous track record, point to humans being the front and center, and king of the pack despite this attempt at trying to showcase us as the underdogs. If anyone's the underdogs in this universe its the Elcor and Hanar.
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bshep
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Jan 3, 2017 23:10:13 GMT
Anybody else think this is too low? Besides the travellers in the nexus the total number of colonists is at 80,000 which is too small imo to colonize dozens of worlds and presumably be at war with a giant force like the Khet. It doesn't seem feasible. Thoughts? We possibly descend from a small size population, which may explain why there is little genetic variability in our DNA when compared with that of chimpanzees. So 20.000 humans is more than enough to create a viable population.
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 3, 2017 23:23:58 GMT
You honestly think they have the technology to travel to a different galaxy but don't have the technology to create artificial wombs? We aren't that far from achieving it in real life. They could do that. And it could be viable, but it also might be time consuming and take up too much space to do on a large enough scale to be worthwhile. That's the smallest of issues here. Given one m 2 per pod one square kilometer would host million of them. That's like 1/20 of one Nexus wing. On one floor. That's naturally not an option with such sheer numbers. Technology similiar to Okeer's would give them some basic knowledge to beging with, the rest is up to some kind of boarding schools. The biggest issue is infrastructure. Enough food and living quarters for all of them. Though fully functioning farms with few thousands of personell should be able to feed millions.
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Mad Cassidy
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Post by Mad Cassidy on Jan 3, 2017 23:59:04 GMT
Yes they would need to breed like rabbits and women would not at all be placed in combat roles due to risk of death in the battlefield. But this is bioware and female representation is 50/50 for combat roles even though it shouldn't for this scenario since they should be breeders. You honestly think they have the technology to travel to a different galaxy but don't have the technology to create artificial wombs? We aren't that far from achieving it in real life. This is the obvious solution. The 20K live, grown humans would probably represent a very small percentage of the actual genetic diversity. Most of the the future population will likely come from the millions of sperm and egg samples kept on ice on the ships (donated by those not brave/stupid enough to volunteer themselves). It would be astonishingly stupid not to do that. Easier and cheaper to transport, and no need to induce embryogenesis all at once - you can measure them out through time as resources become more available or as demand rises. Join the Andromeda Initiative! Please grab a cup, and a complementary Fornax vidmag. It's time to help humanity find a new home.
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helios969
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Jan 4, 2017 0:09:03 GMT
Anybody else think this is too low? Besides the travellers in the nexus the total number of colonists is at 80,000 which is too small imo to colonize dozens of worlds and presumably be at war with a giant force like the Khet. It doesn't seem feasible. Thoughts? We possibly descend from a small size population, which may explain why there is little genetic variability in our DNA when compared with that of chimpanzees. So 20.000 humans is more than enough to create a viable population. Yes, there is something called the Genetic Bottleneck Theory due to the Toba super eruption some 70K years ago reducing the human population to between 1000 and 10000 breeding pairs, which if correct means we all descend from those 2-20 thousand humans. I don't know how accepted the theory is across academia, but I always found it a satisfying explanation for the lack of genetic diversity in humans...not that I'm any kind of expert in the field.
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GannayevOfDreams
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Jan 4, 2017 0:20:10 GMT
You honestly think they have the technology to travel to a different galaxy but don't have the technology to create artificial wombs? We aren't that far from achieving it in real life. This is the obvious solution. The 20K live, grown humans would probably represent a very small percentage of the actual genetic diversity. Most of the the future population will likely come from the millions of sperm and egg samples kept on ice on the ships (donated by those not brave/stupid enough to volunteer themselves). It would be astonishingly stupid not to do that. Easier and cheaper to transport, and no need to induce embryogenesis all at once - you can measure them out through time as resources become more available or as demand rises. Join the Andromeda Initiative! Please grab a cup, and a complementary Fornax vidmag. It's time to help humanity find a new home. I agree. Bringing along a broader "gene-vault", if you will, to give you options outside of who actually made the trip would be wise. Should be easily doable with the level of technology we're talking about.
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
Prime Posts: 1876
Prime Likes: 376
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Jan 4, 2017 0:37:06 GMT
We possibly descend from a small size population, which may explain why there is little genetic variability in our DNA when compared with that of chimpanzees. So 20.000 humans is more than enough to create a viable population. Yes, there is something called the Genetic Bottleneck Theory due to the Toba super eruption some 70K years ago reducing the human population to between 1000 and 10000 breeding pairs, which if correct means we all descend from those 2-20 thousand humans. I don't know how accepted the theory is across academia, but I always found it a satisfying explanation for the lack of genetic diversity in humans...not that I'm any kind of expert in the field. You know what is curious? When our ancestors started leaving Africa they began interbreeding with other species from the genus Homo like the Neanderthals, the Denisovans and others which resulted in us having a few pieces of them on our DNA. Even thousands of years ago we were already banging other species.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2017 0:54:20 GMT
Yeah, or Geth. True, though the Rachni would arguably need less resources to achieve the same results, and could become self sufficient with far less input; assuming that you were starting with a single queen/network. But I guess Alliance security officers with a disciplinary records and violent battle toads are a much better choice for your crew. Perhaps, however the Geth would be able to do things that the Rachni cannot. A prime example is terraform a world. The Rachni can't do this, and yet we've seen the Geth do it more than once. So the Rachni may be better at making a new world fit for themselves, but the Geth are better at making it fit for others. I should note I wasn't saying that the Rachni were a poor choice, since they are not. I've said multiple times that ironically the best species for this kind of venture are the ones who have no place in the Milky Way societies. Since Bioware said they have a plan for all the races we know and love to be in Andromeda, maybe some of the people involved with AI realized that too.
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Post by derrame on Jan 4, 2017 1:01:08 GMT
from a biological point of view 20.00 of individuals is too slow to mantain the species, a new species will soon evolve from this individuals, but this is the lore of MEA, so we have to accept it, maybe there is more info in Andromeda, we'll know more once we get there
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 4, 2017 1:19:02 GMT
As I understand it the European population in the Eastern US' Thirteen Colonies during the 17th Century was approximately doubling every 10 years from 2,000 people in 1625 to 270,000 in 1702. That colony project had the benefit of continued arrivals from the 'old world' something the Andromeda Initiative will not have. Clearly, breeding programs will be an element, but with infant mortality rates controlled through medical advances it is not necessary to produce Victorian levels of offspring. Two key factors for success will be: - Sufficient genetic diversity to support a viable population, of anywhere between:
160 for genetic viability and - www.newscientist.com/article/dn1936-magic-number-for-space-pioneers-calculated/ 40,000 individuals for full colonization - www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a10369/how-many-people-does-it-take-to-colonize-another-star-system-16654747/ In short, we're in the right ballpark - The second and huge factor is what do you meet in terms of environment and indigenous life when you get there.
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Exactly.
Emergence in the cluster did not go according to plan. We have divisions in our ranks (pirates and factions..). Initiative security force numbers are limited. We meet the Khet as a hostile expansionist species that is more than ready to rumble. Add the fact that the Khet can play the attrition game while the humans cannot. The Ryders are handed a cluster-f**k of a disaster .
Enter our super squad mates to save the day, preserve peace and allow the colonies to grow and prosper. Failure is not an option.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 4, 2017 1:26:39 GMT
You know I really wish they had not put a specific number to the Ark populations. It would have avoided the 'Star Trek Voyager' effect. And I just thought of one horrifying reason this is the case. Depending on how it will work the ME A Multiplayer might very easily have you engage in combat with other members of the MW species, I feel this very, very, likely. Now I headcanonened the ME 3 MP as being a part of a VR simulation to prepare people for combat, but the point still remains, if you are killing each other off in MP could get...interesting.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Jan 4, 2017 1:27:42 GMT
As I understand it the European population in the Eastern US' Thirteen Colonies during the 17th Century was approximately doubling every 10 years from 2,000 people in 1625 to 270,000 in 1702. That colony project had the benefit of continued arrivals from the 'old world' something the Andromeda Initiative will not have. Clearly, breeding programs will be an element, but with infant mortality rates controlled through medical advances it is not necessary to produce Victorian levels of offspring. Two key factors for success will be: - Sufficient genetic diversity to support a viable population, of anywhere between:
160 for genetic viability and - www.newscientist.com/article/dn1936-magic-number-for-space-pioneers-calculated/ 40,000 individuals for full colonization - www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a10369/how-many-people-does-it-take-to-colonize-another-star-system-16654747/ In short, we're in the right ballpark - The second and huge factor is what do you meet in terms of environment and indigenous life when you get there.
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Exactly.
Emergence in the cluster did not go according to plan. We have divisions in our ranks (pirates and factions..). Initiative security force numbers are limited. We meet the Khet as a hostile expansionist species that is more than ready to rumble. Add the fact that the Khet can play the attrition game while the humans cannot. The Ryders are handed a cluster-f**k of a disaster .
Enter our super squad mates to save the day, preserve peace and allow the colonies to grow and prosper. Failure is not an option.
IE: We must secure the existence of our people and a future for human children because the beauty of the human woman must not perish from the andromeda galaxy.
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N3
Good comedy is all about.......timing!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Good comedy is all about.......timing!
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 4, 2017 3:44:32 GMT
Well you could: Abandon Earth Noveria Horizon Eden Prime Feros Elisium
Then I am sure you would have enough people.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 4, 2017 3:55:56 GMT
True, though the Rachni would arguably need less resources to achieve the same results, and could become self sufficient with far less input; assuming that you were starting with a single queen/network. But I guess Alliance security officers with a disciplinary records and violent battle toads are a much better choice for your crew. Perhaps, however the Geth would be able to do things that the Rachni cannot. A prime example is terraform a world. The Rachni can't do this, and yet we've seen the Geth do it more than once. So the Rachni may be better at making a new world fit for themselves, but the Geth are better at making it fit for others. I should note I wasn't saying that the Rachni were a poor choice, since they are not. I've said multiple times that ironically the best species for this kind of venture are the ones who have no place in the Milky Way societies. Since Bioware said they have a plan for all the races we know and love to be in Andromeda, maybe some of the people involved with AI realized that too. Well the Rachni haven't had any opportunity to showcase their scientific and engineering prowess in the current timeline, nor have they had around three hundred years of isolation to themselves to develop their holdings. We do know, however, that they did produce space age equivalent feats of architecture on their home world of Suen even before they achieved space flight, as a necessity to their planet's harsh environment, and that they were adept enough to jump to work on the Crucible with no problem. Sure the Geth might have a higher end capacity once they have established a collective consciousness "as large as a galactic arm" as EDI puts it in ME 2, but the Rachni are far more cost efficient for a start up colonization effort. You can send a single queen down to a planet and within two years she can establish a nest with enough capacity to see her broods being able to see galaxy wide deployment. A single Geth program will be no smarter than a low end VI and until they reach that 'critical mass' of networked processing power you won't see them doing much of anything outside of rudimentary animal intelligence. Even your "mindless" Rachni drones and soldiers possess enough of an intelligence to construct proto-colonies (perfect foundations for AI prefab shelters) as well as engage in hit and run attacks against a modern military armed with nothing but claws and acidic spit (zero cost covert ops forces). With the Geth, unless you are going to bring along an established mini-Consensuses and are willing to devote valuable resources like plastics, metals, and computer hardware (resources needed for your colony ships and structures) to make more of themselves, you won't be getting much use out of them. That being said, I completly agree with you last point, and I am really hoping that species like the Rachni and Geth (preferably the ME 2 version) will make the trip to Andromeda. The setting feels so meh without the more alien races to give it depth and diversity.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jan 4, 2017 3:56:06 GMT
There's always that one guy who has to accuse a developer of bad female representation. What surprises me is that the person chose Bioware of all developers. Go figure.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 4, 2017 5:48:24 GMT
People, they're colonizing a new galaxy. It's the biggest endeavor in (known) space-faring species history. The timeframe for this is not "Lets go plop down several million people on this planet with prefab structures and be back for lunch." They're in it for the long haul. If you had the opportunity to mould civilization from its infancy with all the knowledge on economics/law/governing of numerous space species wouldn't you wanna start from scratch?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2017 5:57:53 GMT
People, they're colonizing a new galaxy. It's the biggest endeavor in (known) space-faring species history. The timeframe for this is not "Lets go plop down several million people on this planet with prefab structures and be back for lunch." They're in it for the long haul. If you had the opportunity to mould civilization from its infancy with all the knowledge on economics/law/governing of numerous space species wouldn't you wanna start from scratch? No, no I would not. I would want a well-laid foundation to be set up before the endeavor even launches.
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Saboru
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Post by Saboru on Jan 4, 2017 6:30:46 GMT
People, they're colonizing a new galaxy. It's the biggest endeavor in (known) space-faring species history. The timeframe for this is not "Lets go plop down several million people on this planet with prefab structures and be back for lunch." They're in it for the long haul. If you had the opportunity to mould civilization from its infancy with all the knowledge on economics/law/governing of numerous space species wouldn't you wanna start from scratch? God no, I want to have a bloody good idea of what sort of civilisation I'm leaping into before I take off on a one way trip to a long time ahead in a galaxy far, far away. You don't want to leave it to whatever bunch of whackos have enough free time to think up new plans for civilisation once you get there. That would surely lead to the whole thing splintering with fighting, exiles, factions breaking away to set up their own way of living in... oh... never mind, as you were. Story wise I'm sure the half arsed chaotic approach be far more entertaining. Where's the fun in a tale full of competent people co-operating reasonably.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 4, 2017 6:42:18 GMT
People, they're colonizing a new galaxy. It's the biggest endeavor in (known) space-faring species history. The timeframe for this is not "Lets go plop down several million people on this planet with prefab structures and be back for lunch." They're in it for the long haul. If you had the opportunity to mould civilization from its infancy with all the knowledge on economics/law/governing of numerous space species wouldn't you wanna start from scratch? God no, I want to have a bloody good idea of what sort of civilisation I'm leaping into before I take off on a one way trip to a long time ahead in a galaxy far, far away. You don't want to leave it to whatever bunch of whackos have enough free time to think up new plans for civilisation once you get there. That would surely lead to the whole thing splintering with fighting, exiles, factions breaking away to set up their own way of living in... oh... never mind, as you were. Story wise I'm sure the half arsed chaotic approach be far more entertaining. Where's the fun in a tale full of competent people co-operating reasonably.The Loony Tunes characters Mac and Tosh(aka Goofy Gophers) are like that and they can be very entertaining.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 4, 2017 6:49:05 GMT
People, they're colonizing a new galaxy. It's the biggest endeavor in (known) space-faring species history. The timeframe for this is not "Lets go plop down several million people on this planet with prefab structures and be back for lunch." They're in it for the long haul. If you had the opportunity to mould civilization from its infancy with all the knowledge on economics/law/governing of numerous space species wouldn't you wanna start from scratch? God no, I want to have a bloody good idea of what sort of civilisation I'm leaping into before I take off on a one way trip to a long time ahead in a galaxy far, far away. You don't want to leave it to whatever bunch of whackos have enough free time to think up new plans for civilisation once you get there. That would surely lead to the whole thing splintering with fighting, exiles, factions breaking away to set up their own way of living in... oh... never mind, as you were. Story wise I'm sure the half arsed chaotic approach be far more entertaining. Where's the fun in a tale full of competent people co-operating reasonably. Rule #1 Always have a plan in place first and foremost. Rule #2 Make sure you have at least 10 contingency plans should something go wrong. Society in new galaxy going to self implode? That is ok. We have contingencies. *Push Nuke button*... Lets try this again.
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