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Post by Fredward on Jan 4, 2017 20:07:17 GMT
"How civilizations work" If we take that into consideration then the Ai shouldn't even be possible in the first place. What? Is it cuz it hasn't been done before? Cuz it has, it's just colonization on a really grand scale.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 4, 2017 20:10:11 GMT
"How civilizations work" If we take that into consideration then the Ai shouldn't even be possible in the first place. What? Is it cuz it hasn't been done before? Cuz it has, it's just colonization on a really grand scale. Because of how much it would cost. And how no one that isn't crazy would make that kind of investment.
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Post by Cypher on Jan 4, 2017 20:15:27 GMT
Yes there is. For example it took the Turians 100 years and victory in one of the bloodiest wars of our cycle's history to earn a Council seat, and yet with humanity it only took 26 years and victory in one battle. Then there are things like humanity inventing Medi-Gel or Carrier ships, the latter of which is especially ridiculous since there is no way a militant race like the Turians would not have done that long before humans even invented aircraft. What you just said was that humanity was the beneficiary of societal progression and happenstance. Turian's fought the Krogan for 100 years and the galaxy decided that they'd rather not deal with that again, so when the issue arose again with turian/human first contact, they shut it down after a few months. That's not humanity being special. Turian's got a council seat after effectively saving galactic civilization in the eyes of many. Humanity did the same. That's not humans being special. The circumstances of the Reapers was far more immediate, and the circumstances of the take down were happenstance. A human was chosen to lead a multispecies team to take down someone who was considered a terrorist because a human colony was attacked. Speed up Ralaoi first contact by a few decades and swap them out with Saren attacking one of their colonies to get a beacon and the outcome would've been the same. Humanity making medi-gel isn't anything special; medi-gel is nothing more than stem cells and neosporin in a nice little package, with stem cell tests involving grafting and whatever essentially doing the same thing as medi-gel. The only reason why no one else did it--or did it en masse since in all likelihood, studies were done prior to humanity coming along--is that it falls under illegal genetics tinkering in council space. That's a cultural thing, and as we all know, cultural things can last millenia. And the only reason it's present here and now is because humanity didn't have these restrictions in place until recently, and by that time, they already had the stuff made and out in the world. The only real one you have are carriers, but not all military doctrine is the same. Plus, is far more illogical for everyone to have not come up with something that wasn't reliant on Reaper tech instead of simply just dealing with what they discovered for thousands of years than it is one group of people having an epiphany to use one bigass ship to carry a bunch of smaller ships and someone else not having that epiphany. Carriers are just an extension of aircraft carriers. Maybe turians had no need for fighter jets before discovering space travel because their culture for combat developed along other lines, so they never needed to apply such a thing to space combat. edit: Also, the citadel was moved to Earth because they already determined that they were going to use humanity to build a reaper, and the Collector base, being the thing they were using to make the next Reaper being destroyed, they opted to turn the citadel into the factory. Moving it to Thessia wouldn't have made any lick of sense. The plan to get everyone to go to Earth was because the Reapers were focused and centralized in the area due to them intending to make humans a new Reaper.
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Post by Thrombin on Jan 5, 2017 0:32:04 GMT
You say all this like it's a bad thing. I'm a human I want humans to be the best. Why wouldn't I? It's a common trope in both fantasy and sci-fi that humans are the ones whose curiosity and drive push them harder and faster than the other more established species. I have no problem with that at all. I love that idea and always have. Because it goes against what the setting was supposed to be. Bioware talked about how Mass Effect has humanity as the new kid on the block and merely part of the galactic community, but then they went against both these premises. They made humanity the Superspecialawesome race that in years does what takes more advanced races decades or centuries to achieve if they do at all, and instead of being just a part of the group they made it where the galaxy revolves around us. That may be fine for some science fiction, but It makes perfect sense for the new kid on the block to make waves. Everyone else has been following the path the Reapers laid down. Humanity developed along it's own path and came to the table with a fresh approach and different eyes. It's not surprising they saw new ways of doing things that the others hadn't thought of. I don't see your argument at all.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 5, 2017 1:13:10 GMT
Because it goes against what the setting was supposed to be. Bioware talked about how Mass Effect has humanity as the new kid on the block and merely part of the galactic community, but then they went against both these premises. They made humanity the Superspecialawesome race that in years does what takes more advanced races decades or centuries to achieve if they do at all, and instead of being just a part of the group they made it where the galaxy revolves around us. That may be fine for some science fiction, but It makes perfect sense for the new kid on the block to make waves. Everyone else has been following the path the Reapers laid down. Humanity developed along it's own path and came to the table with a fresh approach and different eyes. It's not surprising they saw new ways of doing things that the others hadn't thought of. I don't see your argument at all. Um, no they didn't. Humanity was following the plan the Reapers laid down just as much as any other species in our cycle? Where did you get humanity developed along its own path?
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 5, 2017 16:38:28 GMT
Yes there is. For example it took the Turians 100 years and victory in one of the bloodiest wars of our cycle's history to earn a Council seat, and yet with humanity it only took 26 years and victory in one battle. Then there are things like humanity inventing Medi-Gel or Carrier ships, the latter of which is especially ridiculous since there is no way a militant race like the Turians would not have done that long before humans even invented aircraft. What you just said was that humanity was the beneficiary of societal progression and happenstance. Turian's fought the Krogan for 100 years and the galaxy decided that they'd rather not deal with that again, so when the issue arose again with turian/human first contact, they shut it down after a few months. That's not humanity being special. Turian's got a council seat after effectively saving galactic civilization in the eyes of many. Humanity did the same. That's not humans being special. The circumstances of the Reapers was far more immediate, and the circumstances of the take down were happenstance. A human was chosen to lead a multispecies team to take down someone who was considered a terrorist because a human colony was attacked. Speed up Ralaoi first contact by a few decades and swap them out with Saren attacking one of their colonies to get a beacon and the outcome would've been the same. Humanity making medi-gel isn't anything special; medi-gel is nothing more than stem cells and neosporin in a nice little package, with stem cell tests involving grafting and whatever essentially doing the same thing as medi-gel. The only reason why no one else did it--or did it en masse since in all likelihood, studies were done prior to humanity coming along--is that it falls under illegal genetics tinkering in council space. That's a cultural thing, and as we all know, cultural things can last millenia. And the only reason it's present here and now is because humanity didn't have these restrictions in place until recently, and by that time, they already had the stuff made and out in the world. The only real one you have are carriers, but not all military doctrine is the same. Plus, is far more illogical for everyone to have not come up with something that wasn't reliant on Reaper tech instead of simply just dealing with what they discovered for thousands of years than it is one group of people having an epiphany to use one bigass ship to carry a bunch of smaller ships and someone else not having that epiphany. Carriers are just an extension of aircraft carriers. Maybe turians had no need for fighter jets before discovering space travel because their culture for combat developed along other lines, so they never needed to apply such a thing to space combat. edit: Also, the citadel was moved to Earth because they already determined that they were going to use humanity to build a reaper, and the Collector base, being the thing they were using to make the next Reaper being destroyed, they opted to turn the citadel into the factory. Moving it to Thessia wouldn't have made any lick of sense. The plan to get everyone to go to Earth was because the Reapers were focused and centralized in the area due to them intending to make humans a new Reaper. All these windfalls that "just happen" to a singular character (or species in this case) is still very much the calling card of a Mary Sue though. It's not enough that humanity is making waves during their very, very brief time as a part of galactic society, but that every major advance, every innovative leap forward, every new development of ideas comes from humanity. Not once do we see these other species, all of whom have far more infrastructure and experience involving interstellar life than we do, make any sort of major contribution to society as a whole like humanity does throughout the course of the trilogy. Sure Shepard and humanity's arc is about dealing with the Reaper threat, but do we also have to be the ones who: Think of the concept for carriers? Who conceive of a universal, cross species medical treatment? Who are the only ones that can track down a solid lead on the Shadow Broker? Who can (potentially) hack the entirety of the Geth Consciences (and all other synthetics in the galaxy) with a single autistic mind? Who are the ones to discover both the Rachni and Thorian and be in the lead when conducting studies of them? Who are the only species in the entire galaxy with enough 'genetic diversity' to satisfy the Reapers' criteria for making a new Reaper and have the potential to be better at everything than everyone else because of said genetics? The first species to create a communication device outside of the Mass Relay network (QECs)? The only species able to piece together the mystery of the Leviathans and bring them into the war against the Reapers? Why is it that we are economically out pacing the Volus, the very species who created the rules for the galactic economy and have been running it for the past two thousand years? Why is it that we are better at information gathering and covert operations (with a single terrorist organization in most cases) than the entirety of the Salarian Union, who have been specializing in that very thing for over two thousand years? Etc. Etc. As for the whole Take Back Earth in ME 3, why would the galaxy care that the Reapers are focusing there prior to the Citadel being moved into low Earth orbit? The major advantage of the Reapers that we are told time and time again is that they don't have home worlds or supply lines to worry about, so even if the forces of the galaxy stopped the completion of the human-based Reaper there are still a gazillion of the the things flying around the galaxy so what's one more Reaper going to do? All the galaxy would have done is waste valuable ships and resources on the liberation of a world with zero tactical significance to the war effort. At least a planet like Palaven was still being actively contested. If anything, Admiral Hackett should have been gathering his remaining forces there, to help hold the front line. Sorry Anderson, London is great and all (I guess), but putting all of the galaxy's conventional eggs in one basket to save it is beyond foolish. What's more, when the Citadel is captured and moved to Earth; and all of the galaxy has an actual reason to go there; and the allied forces win the day we don't see the symbol of galactic unity and co-operation put back in it's original place as an honor for all the species who fought and died to save the galaxy. No, it's left, like some trophy, over Earth (in all three endings to boot) practically screaming that the human home world is now the undisputed head of galactic government and policy.
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Post by Vespervin on Jan 5, 2017 20:54:55 GMT
Only twenty thousand? That seems very low.
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Post by Thrombin on Jan 6, 2017 11:55:42 GMT
It makes perfect sense for the new kid on the block to make waves. Everyone else has been following the path the Reapers laid down. Humanity developed along it's own path and came to the table with a fresh approach and different eyes. It's not surprising they saw new ways of doing things that the others hadn't thought of. I don't see your argument at all. Um, no they didn't. Humanity was following the plan the Reapers laid down just as much as any other species in our cycle? Where did you get humanity developed along its own path? I could be wrong but my understanding was that the Reapers tried to lead technology down a particular path by leaving behind the Citadel and the Relays for the races to reverse engineer. Since humanity only discovered the Relays and the other races very recently their technology had been free to develop differently. Either way, they bring a fresh perspective and that can often lead to new ideas and new innovations. It's not that they are necessarily better than the other races just the fact that they look at things differently can open up new ways of doing things.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 7, 2017 0:00:28 GMT
Only twenty thousand? That seems very low. 10,000 would probably be the minimum human population required to ensure enough genetic diversity is passed on to future generations, as the gene pool is large enough to reduce the risk of potential health complications or inbreeding taking place down the line. Having double that figure would only make things easier when it comes to humanity trying to colonise Andromeda.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 7, 2017 0:35:39 GMT
Um, no they didn't. Humanity was following the plan the Reapers laid down just as much as any other species in our cycle? Where did you get humanity developed along its own path? I could be wrong but my understanding was that the Reapers tried to lead technology down a particular path by leaving behind the Citadel and the Relays for the races to reverse engineer. Since humanity only discovered the Relays and the other races very recently their technology had been free to develop differently. Either way, they bring a fresh perspective and that can often lead to new ideas and new innovations. It's not that they are necessarily better than the other races just the fact that they look at things differently can open up new ways of doing things. That's the exact opposite of the Reaper plan. They left the Citadel and the relays behind so the races would become complacent. The relays are to keep the races from looking further. They already have free transportation to any number of worlds, and a hub where it can all be directed. Why think outside this nice, comfortable box?
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 7, 2017 0:42:58 GMT
Only twenty thousand? That seems very low. 10,000 would probably be the minimum human population required to ensure enough genetic diversity is passed on to future generations, as the gene pool is large enough to reduce the risk of potential health complications It's much less than that. I don't want to search links on those researches again, so could you just trust me on this one? No? Okay. Anyway it's more of an immediate issue, since being outnumbered 1:10 000 by hostile aliens is never a good thing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2017 1:01:15 GMT
Um, no they didn't. Humanity was following the plan the Reapers laid down just as much as any other species in our cycle? Where did you get humanity developed along its own path? I could be wrong but my understanding was that the Reapers tried to lead technology down a particular path by leaving behind the Citadel and the Relays for the races to reverse engineer. Since humanity only discovered the Relays and the other races very recently their technology had been free to develop differently. Either way, they bring a fresh perspective and that can often lead to new ideas and new innovations. It's not that they are necessarily better than the other races just the fact that they look at things differently can open up new ways of doing things. Sorry, you are mistaken. While yes the Reapers left the Citadel and Mass Relays for the cycles to follow a particular path thus make the harvests more efficient, humanity had not developed along a different path. Humanity essentially hit a brick wall when it came to interstellar travel until they found the Prothean ruins buried on Mars, which seemed to hold all the answers and left humanity to the discovery of mass effect technology and the Mass Relay inside Charon. That Mass Relay led to others which led to the Citadel. This happened with all the other species of our cycle because like the Citadel and Mass Relays the Reapers left certain Prothean ruins behind to help guide new races to the same kind of path the Protheans and all previous cycles used, with the added benefit of keeping the Reapers hidden from them and instead have the galaxy think these things were from the previous cycle, not a trap. With those 'gifts', humanity like all the other races in our cycles and all previous cycles developed along the same path and perspective since there was no need for them to look for another way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 1:14:51 GMT
Um, no they didn't. Humanity was following the plan the Reapers laid down just as much as any other species in our cycle? Where did you get humanity developed along its own path? I could be wrong but my understanding was that the Reapers tried to lead technology down a particular path by leaving behind the Citadel and the Relays for the races to reverse engineer. Since humanity only discovered the Relays and the other races very recently their technology had been free to develop differently. Either way, they bring a fresh perspective and that can often lead to new ideas and new innovations. It's not that they are necessarily better than the other races just the fact that they look at things differently can open up new ways of doing things. To be fair, from what we could gather, Shepard was the only anomaly in the way of the Reapers, not humanity in general. Leviathan said: "Your own species could be destroyed with a single thought, but you are different..." "the Reapers perceive you as a threat, and I must understand why..."
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 7, 2017 4:39:18 GMT
10,000 would probably be the minimum human population required to ensure enough genetic diversity is passed on to future generations, as the gene pool is large enough to reduce the risk of potential health complications It's much less than that. I don't want to search links on those researches again, so could you just trust me on this one? No? Okay. Anyway it's more of an immediate issue, since being outnumbered 1:10 000 by hostile aliens is never a good thing. An anthropologist suggested that 150 people on a colony ship that didn't interbreed along the way could sustain genetic diversity. Another guy said 10,000 but that 40,000 would be better (to account for potential deaths in transit). www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a10369/how-many-people-does-it-take-to-colonize-another-star-system-16654747/
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Post by Xerxes52 on Jan 7, 2017 5:34:20 GMT
Also add in the fact that genetic engineering is commonplace in the ME universe. Any deleterious recessive traits that would arise from a small initial population pool would be eradicated.
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Post by Princess Trejo on Jan 7, 2017 11:30:43 GMT
Most of the colonists should have been Scandinavians.
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Post by Arcian on Jan 7, 2017 17:06:36 GMT
Anybody else think this is too low? Besides the travellers in the nexus the total number of colonists is at 80,000 which is too small imo to colonize dozens of worlds and presumably be at war with a giant force like the Khet. It doesn't seem feasible. Thoughts? From a biological perspective it is entirely feasible. From a war perspective, you're absolutely right, which is why they should avoid a war narrative.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Jan 7, 2017 17:20:50 GMT
Anybody else think this is too low? Besides the travellers in the nexus the total number of colonists is at 80,000 which is too small imo to colonize dozens of worlds and presumably be at war with a giant force like the Khet. It doesn't seem feasible. Thoughts? From a biological perspective it is entirely feasible. From a war perspective, you're absolutely right, which is why they should avoid a war narrative. See this is why they should use tank-breeding to bolster their populations. Or possibly drop some folks onto planets in ACUs and have them mass produce millions of bots to overwhelm any defenders.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 7, 2017 22:34:28 GMT
It's much less than that. I don't want to search links on those researches again, so could you just trust me on this one? No? Okay. Anyway it's more of an immediate issue, since being outnumbered 1:10 000 by hostile aliens is never a good thing. Aye, I'm not saying that you can't create a stable population with less numbers than that, only that anything over 10,000 is more beneficial in the long-term because you're making the genetic bottleneck far wider for humanity in Andromeda. Colonising with a lower population however does run the risk of the founder effect, where there's a marked loss of genetic variation among their descendants due to the small numbers their ancestors interbred from. While not necessarily harmful, it'd kind of suck to be stuck with bad eyesight and asthma because half of your colony descends from the Nerd Herd? Sure, we know that genetic engineering in the Mass Effect universe can fix a variety of health problems (even pre-natal). But it'd be rather foolish for them to go to Andromeda and not have a plan for the worst case scenario, should their advanced medical technology become ineffective or rendered inoperable somehow? Hypothetically, were I a colonist and had kids, I'd feel pretty bad they might be bumping into walls, because there was no longer any way to give them gene therapy to correct the bad eyesight they potentially inherited from me. I don't know if there are many people who'd remember how to make spectacles in the 22nd Century, at least not in a pinch?
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Post by Ocelot on Jan 8, 2017 0:32:24 GMT
It's much less than that. I don't want to search links on those researches again, so could you just trust me on this one? No? Okay. Anyway it's more of an immediate issue, since being outnumbered 1:10 000 by hostile aliens is never a good thing. Aye, I'm not saying that you can't create a stable population with less numbers than that, only that anything over 10,000 is more beneficial in the long-term because you're making the genetic bottleneck far wider for humanity in Andromeda. Colonising with a lower population however does run the risk of the founder effect, where there's a marked loss of genetic variation among their descendants due to the small numbers their ancestors interbred from. While not necessarily harmful, it'd kind of suck to be stuck with bad eyesight and asthma because half of your colony descends from the Nerd Herd? Sure, we know that genetic engineering in the Mass Effect universe can fix a variety of health problems (even pre-natal). But it'd be rather foolish for them to go to Andromeda and not have a plan for the worst case scenario, should their advanced medical technology become ineffective or rendered inoperable somehow? Hypothetically, were I a colonist and had kids, I'd feel pretty bad they might be bumping into walls, because there was no longer any way to give them gene therapy to correct the bad eyesight they potentially inherited from me. I don't know if there are many people who'd remember how to make spectacles in the 22nd Century, at least not in a pinch? Seems reasonable if they did a medical check of each volunteer in order to see if they were fit for repopulating.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 8, 2017 1:30:09 GMT
Seems reasonable if they did a medical check of each volunteer in order to see if they were fit for repopulating. That would open whole can of ethical issues relating to eugenics though, if you were to purposely bar people from reproducing based on solely on them having some kind of "undesirable" traits, since who would be the one to decide what is fine and what's not? (Reminds me of a great episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, where Geordi remarks upon the irony that he was the one to come up with the solution to save a society who practice eugenics, who would have terminated him as an embryo simply because he was born blind.) Barring certain people from breeding could also lead to one of other issues I mentioned before, the founder effect, where there's an overall loss of genetic diversity in a population because they had only a handful of people serving as their common ancestors. They'd probably be healthy, sure... but you might start to notice a remarkable amount of blondes and guys with hairy chests running around the place, examples of traits that might be passed down from the original selection of breeding colonists?
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 8, 2017 2:25:05 GMT
Seems reasonable if they did a medical check of each volunteer in order to see if they were fit for repopulating. That would open whole can of ethical issues relating to eugenics though Yep, definately not a Bioware thing. So regarding procreation there will be no limits on colonists.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 8, 2017 10:29:04 GMT
[[[“Population genetics theory, calculations and computer modeling determine that a properly screened and age- and sex-structured total founding population (Nc) of anywhere from roughly 14,000 to 44,000 people would be sufficient to survive such journeys in good health,” Dr. Smith wrote. “A safe and well-considered Nc figure is 40,000, an Interstellar Migrant Population (IMP) composed of an Effective Population [Ne] of 23,400 reproductive males and females, the rest being pre- or post-reproductive individuals.]]] projectnovaeuropa.com/how-many-people-are-required-to-create-a-genetically-stable-colony/So maybe there are more than 20k aboard the arks. Just the 20K that are in charge of continuing the species
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Post by Cypher on Jan 8, 2017 10:42:51 GMT
[[[“Population genetics theory, calculations and computer modeling determine that a properly screened and age- and sex-structured total founding population (Nc) of anywhere from roughly 14,000 to 44,000 people would be sufficient to survive such journeys in good health,” Dr. Smith wrote. “A safe and well-considered Nc figure is 40,000, an Interstellar Migrant Population (IMP) composed of an Effective Population [Ne] of 23,400 reproductive males and females, the rest being pre- or post-reproductive individuals.]]] projectnovaeuropa.com/how-many-people-are-required-to-create-a-genetically-stable-colony/So maybe there are more than 20k aboard the arks. Just the 20K that are in charge of continuing the species There doesn't need to be more than 20k on the Arks since there could be 5-10k on the Nexus itself. Plus, if they brought over egg and sperm samples, they could increase the population and genetic diversity even further. Granted, convincing people to become inseminated with random people's DNA who're billions of miles away and 600 years in the past might be hard, but I'm sure some would bite.
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Pon.ee
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Post by Pon.ee on Jan 8, 2017 12:13:09 GMT
But think of all the paperwork. *shudders*
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