Cypher
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Post by Cypher on Jan 9, 2017 8:12:01 GMT
You can do it without being twitchy. Think about it within the frame of Mass Effect. You're out with your squad when you suddenly get attacked out in the open by a bunch of people and an Atlas mech. You have a biotic slap out a singularity to hold the mech in place and throw out some grenades; explosion then rips up some of the ground and the atlas explodes in its lower half. The legs fly out as shrapnel and hit some of the enemies and then the larger, upper portion drop to the ground. The uprooted earth plus the remnants of the Atlas are now cover for you to utilize in a space where there was once none. And every shooter that has utilized these concepts in major or minor forms haven't been twitchy at all. Mass Effect in its current state can be twitchy because you can literally bounce around and mow things down without having to stop or care. With these types of things factored into the gameplay, you have to give time to think about how to take advantage of your environment in a beneficial way rather than just blowing something up and screwing yourself over because you collapsed a wall on your head or cut off your means of a tactical retreat while your health is low. If done the way you're describing, I'd be more than happy to have impromptu cover. It'd add a layer of tactical thinking that I'd really appreciate and enjoy. I was more referencing how Battlefield 1 and Rainbow 6 Siege are more "twitchy" FPS games with destructible environments, and I'd rather not see that level in my Mass Effect. Granted, these are different titles by different studios, and I'm probably worrying about little to nothing... I just don't want Mass Effect going more shooter than RPG. Destructible environments and stuff, yes. The twitchier FPS style combat? No thanks. I wouldn't consider BF to be a twitch shooter, to be honest. Twitch shooters to me are akin to Quake, Doom, Counter Strike, and Overwatch. And being twitchy in R6 Siege seems like a good way to get killed since there's no respawns, but I get what you mean nonetheless. Games have dabbled in this kind of destructibility, like the Red Faction games, but nothing mainstream enough to where publishers and developers are willing to take the hit on graphical detail in order to pull it off. ME1 kind of had something similar going on, with explosives and biotics moving loose furniture around that you could use as makeshift cover or flying projectiles toward enemies; that kind of malleability with environments is part of the Frostbite toolset seeing as Battlefield games have a greater sense of destruction than other games, though not to the extent of what I mentioned earlier. I'm sure that, in some shape or form, we'll get this. Maybe not with blowing up chunks of the ground or every mech, but stationary objects flying and exploding should be present if the Game Informer stuff is any indication.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 9:46:35 GMT
On a related note I do wish combat crouching to return in Andromeda. It always bothered me that such basic combat manoeuvre was absent in 2/3 of the trilogy, especially in ME2 were on the higher difficulties it essentially condemned the player to using sticky cover.
Likewise I also hope that the long range sniping from the first game makes its return in some shape or fashion, with a renewed emphasis on exploration it should be perfectly possible for Ryder to take out the sentries of an Enemy camp from a comfortable distance.
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Post by degs29 on Jan 9, 2017 14:35:03 GMT
It is worrying. They've always had the option in Mass Effect to go in guns blazing or to take a more tactical approach. Why do away with the latter?
Don't get me wrong, I like that Vanguard-like play is a viable combat option. I just think it shouldn't be the only option.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 9, 2017 15:10:07 GMT
It is worrying. They've always had the option in Mass Effect to go in guns blazing or to take a more tactical approach. Why do away with the latter? Don't get me wrong, I like that Vanguard-like play is a viable combat option. I just think it shouldn't be the only option. I don't think they have got rid of the "tactical" approach. It is just that the enemies are smarter than "shoot and hide" or "CHARGE". So I still think that you can take cover and attack from afar. Otherwise there is no use to have a sniper rifle. Hopefully they will show a better gameplay later so we can see the different ways. P.s. Didn't one of the demos have a pop-up tip that told you to take cover? I think it was the first demo, where we see Drack and Vetra in.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 9, 2017 15:45:59 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
My view is similar to the OP's.
Taking cover to recharge my shields saves me many a times when playing ME3MP. This constant movement in the open is suicidal or looks that way from the teaser videos. I certainly hope Bio Montreal did not botch combat the way the DA:I design did. My best co-op times with the current MP is under 11 minutes. Somehow, I doubt this is the case with ME:A. Can one really shoot and be accurate at the same time as you are constantly moving in the open? We can kiss goodby to the increased accuracy we have when shooting from cover. Has Bio totally dump this advantage? Besides, taking cover gives me a breather from the hectic pace in small maps.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 9, 2017 15:52:27 GMT
Is it a thing from the past ? While some character builds are less reliant on cover, for the most part you need to use cover to stay alive in MEA--it's still a core component of our combat design. We've greatly expanded the mobility of the character from ME3, but for most character builds that mobility is intended to help you get from cover to cover more effectively and to have more fun doing it, not to avoid cover completely. Playing a pure run-and-gun character who's frequently on the move (and/or often airborne) is certainly possible, but you need to specifically build your character for that playstyle if you want it to be effective. And particularly on the higher difficulty modes, it requires a great deal of skill to pull that off. Hope that helps! ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
I an so bloody happy to read the above.
Thank you @biotiberius.
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Post by degs29 on Jan 9, 2017 15:53:23 GMT
It is worrying. They've always had the option in Mass Effect to go in guns blazing or to take a more tactical approach. Why do away with the latter? Don't get me wrong, I like that Vanguard-like play is a viable combat option. I just think it shouldn't be the only option. P.s. Didn't one of the demos have a pop-up tip that told you to take cover? I think it was the first demo, where we see Drack and Vetra in. I think it was the latest one, when his shields were down. Looks as though it was saying to get out of the line of fire until your shields recharge.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 9, 2017 16:08:35 GMT
P.s. Didn't one of the demos have a pop-up tip that told you to take cover? I think it was the first demo, where we see Drack and Vetra in. I think it was the latest one, when his shields were down. Looks as though it was saying to get out of the line of fire until your shields recharge. If I get it right it should be at the right time, otherwise jump to 2:47. As you say it is not "take cover and attack" but it does show that they are meaning that taking cover is a viable tactic. But the problem is that all the gameplay that we have seen so far is with the "in your face" approach. So if you attack from afar, you won't have to run around. hopefully.
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Post by Raga on Jan 9, 2017 16:12:36 GMT
Is it a thing from the past ? In the last gameplay videos, it seems to me that the character never stops moving in the vast environment, always being an easy target without any cover to help him, taking damage or doing damage as a bullet sponge, it seems a bit messy. I prefer organized, structured, combined actions, careful but intelligent movements to trap and surprise the enemy, ( as a soldier as well ) where my shield is hardly touched, where I hardly take damage, my companions playing a real role, and where I crush my ennemy thanks to, tactics, patience and absolute efficiency, not speed and audacity as a lonewolf. Will it be possible to play that way ? So far I've hardly seen the character hiding behind a cover, it's all run and fire in vast places where it seems difficult to find a cover. As a vanguard okay, but as a soldier, this is a bit suicidal. Unless the enemies are very bad at targetting their preys while they have accurate weapons and the difficulty in Mass effet Andromeda is really that bad. I would think that with the hardest difficulty, it couldn't be that easy to play that way without difficulty... It still remain a bit an FPS. I'm really hoping that the enemies in Mass effect Andromeda will be offensive, intelligent, disruptive, will take advantage of stupid movements, and it will very hard for us if we commit dumb mistakes on the ground. This isn't funny at all to me to be able to do a lot of things against my enemies without feeling that I have to be careful about how I'm going to kill them..... It's sort of strange that this gets brought up as a problem because I've been replaying ME2 and found it to have the opposite problem. Namely, that your shields are so nerfed that it punishes you for doing just about anything *but* hiding under cover all the time. (Energy Drain helps with this). I like playing a shotgun inflitrator, which is to say cloak followed by copious amounts of eviscerator to enemy backside while my squad lays down covering fire. There's lots of ways to play tactically that don't involve hiding behind cover all the time.
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Post by degs29 on Jan 9, 2017 17:45:06 GMT
I think it was the latest one, when his shields were down. Looks as though it was saying to get out of the line of fire until your shields recharge. If I get it right it should be at the right time, otherwise jump to 2:47. As you say it is not "take cover and attack" but it does show that they are meaning that taking cover is a viable tactic. But the problem is that all the gameplay that we have seen so far is with the "in your face" approach. So if you attack from afar, you won't have to run around. hopefully. Yeah, it's also in the CES trailer, but in that case all it said was "Find Cover!" in the center of the screen, and only after his shield was completely gone; looks like a regular thing. Whereas in the video you showed it looked more like a "tips and hints" popup, which may be a one-time or occasionally thing.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 9, 2017 17:54:17 GMT
If I get it right it should be at the right time, otherwise jump to 2:47. As you say it is not "take cover and attack" but it does show that they are meaning that taking cover is a viable tactic. But the problem is that all the gameplay that we have seen so far is with the "in your face" approach. So if you attack from afar, you won't have to run around. hopefully. Yeah, it's also in the CES trailer, but in that case all it said was "Find Cover!" in the center of the screen, and only after his shield was completely gone; looks like a regular thing. Whereas in the video you showed it looked more like a "tips and hints" popup, which may be a one-time or occasionally thing. Which implies that it is a good idea to use cover. I mean, I haven't played the game, but if the game is telling me that I'm dying because I'm stupid enough to stand in enemies fire, that might mean that there is more than the run and gun approach. And you are right that it is most likely a hint and it is there for those that are new to this kind of game. I showed it because it implies that the gameplay will work even if you take a more "tactic" approach.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 10, 2017 5:33:58 GMT
One of the things that made ME3 so easy was Shepard been able to have the forever run. I couldn't stop laughing when Shepard is able to run from beginning to end on a mission. What a joke. Hopefully that's changed for MEA. Are you kidding me? Most distances you would conceivably travel while sprinting would be trivial for an N7 operative, or even a grunt with genetic augments, power armour etc. that's standard in ME. What bugs me and is certainly unrealistic is when "super soldiers" can only sprint for about 4 seconds before getting tired, but then can sprint again after another 4 (looking at you, ME2 and Halo 4 among others). That's an annoying mechanic, so I was very glad of ME3's unlimited sprint and I hope it returns for ME:A.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 10, 2017 5:41:56 GMT
I rarely use cover in ME3. Now soft cover, that's an entirely different matter... Well, ME3 had huge advantages to being in cover, such as (40%?) added damage resistance as well as greatly improved accuracy (which didn't benefit every weapon, but most). This actually gives fairly large disadvantages to kits (in MP) who can't use cover, like volus, the hammer-krogan, and Geth Juggernaut. We'll have to see what non-obvious advantages ME:A cover gives us, and I predict something similar.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 10, 2017 5:44:26 GMT
One of the things that made ME3 so easy was Shepard been able to have the forever run. I couldn't stop laughing when Shepard is able to run from beginning to end on a mission. What a joke. Hopefully that's changed for MEA. Are you kidding me? Most distances you would conceivably travel while sprinting would be trivial for an N7 operative, or even a grunt with genetic augments, power armour etc. that's standard in ME. What bugs me and is certainly unrealistic is when "super soldiers" can only sprint for about 4 seconds before getting tired, but then can sprint again after another 4 (looking at you, ME2 and Halo 4 among others). That's an annoying mechanic, so I was very glad of ME3's unlimited sprint and I hope it returns for ME:A. Considering how much larger and open the maps in MEA will be compared to the previous games, I would be surprised if they didn't keep unlimited sprint.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 10, 2017 5:58:12 GMT
Are you kidding me? Most distances you would conceivably travel while sprinting would be trivial for an N7 operative, or even a grunt with genetic augments, power armour etc. that's standard in ME. Are you kidding me? What is most distances?
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 10, 2017 6:29:14 GMT
As long as we don't try to get out of cover by using the jetpack and get glitched into some invisible wall. After which the ragdoll physics go amuck. I will be happy that I have cover. I know it is not popular to like cover but it is the only reason I beat ME2: Tunnel-vision-rage-death-run mode gets engaged otherwise. Never would have beat ME1-ME2 if not for cover.
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Post by vallixas on Jan 10, 2017 21:45:32 GMT
Really that were no cover in the traditional sense of meaning. It were just some environmental obstacles. I also have not noticed any shield gate and health gate mechanics. It is sort of critical for mutiplayer at least for ME3MP. For DAIMP, the only thing matters is how many times you promoted. The more you promote, the more hit points you have and the more damage resistance you get to the point of being essentially invincible. But in ME3, on higher difficulties, the mechanics allows you to take 2 hits from enemies and still stay alive. Somehow. Let's say you play mutiplayer and are being shot by collectors' scions guns. Let's say you char has 500 shields and 500 health and scion does 1000 damage per shot. So, first shot will break your shields but health still remains intact. Second shot will decimate your health but will leave a tiny sliver of it just to keep you alive. And only 3rd shot will kill you. These are called health and shield gating mechanics and it worked reasonably well. There is nothing in the trailers that resembles this. The jerk who played it has taken every hit possible from every enemy multiple times and still managed to stay alive. I did not like what I've seen so far. Are you expecting crates and walls to be littered everywhere? We witnessed combat out in the wilderness twice and on some prefab platform where Sara Ryder was a Vanguard and blasting things to hell. And when she Charged up to the upper level, she went into cover for a split second before jumping back down into the fight. Cover is there. Shield and health gating is irrelevant and unnecessary in a two minute snippet showing off some of the combat mechanics. Nothing in the trailers resemble shield and health gating because: 1. They're not showing everything, evident by how every time they showed off the main menu and tabs within the main menu, they cut out significant chunks of it. 2. No one is going to die in the footage. It wasn't a live playthrough; it was a fast and loud teaser to drum up interest in the gameplay mechanics. Every game does it, every Mass Effect game previous has done it. Watch gameplay demos at E3 and you'll see characters eat attacks left and right, screen flash red, and the character run around, mowing down everything in sight after taking damage well beyond what actually kills them in the final build that we end up playing because they're showing off the flashiness of their combat and mechanics. They're not showing balance, they're not showing enemy variety and what they do when you do X or what they do to curb you doing Y, they're showing you how cool everything looks while you do it. Consequence of your gameplay actions isn't what these trailers are for, either in Andromeda's case or any game, from Call of Duty to Tekken to Star Ocean to Grand Theft Auto, that's not the point of what they're showing off. And as it's been the case with every single one of the game franchises I just mentioned, as they do more media and show off more of the gameplay in actual sitdowns of moderate to significant length, they start showing off the enemy tactics and give hints to how people will likely end up playing when God mode isn't enabled so that they can show off some stuff for a trailer that is largely targeted to newcomers to their respective franchises versus diehards who were locked into the purchase the moment the game logo came out. You don't have to like what you've seen so far, just like you probably didn't like this: Or this: Or this: Everything we've seen so far of Andromeda amounts to what we saw of those games via these trailers. 0__o Those trailers are badass though especially the first two. We need to get the guy who made those trailers to make Andromeda's.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 10, 2017 22:18:09 GMT
Are you expecting crates and walls to be littered everywhere? We witnessed combat out in the wilderness twice and on some prefab platform where Sara Ryder was a Vanguard and blasting things to hell. And when she Charged up to the upper level, she went into cover for a split second before jumping back down into the fight. Cover is there. Shield and health gating is irrelevant and unnecessary in a two minute snippet showing off some of the combat mechanics. Nothing in the trailers resemble shield and health gating because: 1. They're not showing everything, evident by how every time they showed off the main menu and tabs within the main menu, they cut out significant chunks of it. 2. No one is going to die in the footage. It wasn't a live playthrough; it was a fast and loud teaser to drum up interest in the gameplay mechanics. Every game does it, every Mass Effect game previous has done it. Watch gameplay demos at E3 and you'll see characters eat attacks left and right, screen flash red, and the character run around, mowing down everything in sight after taking damage well beyond what actually kills them in the final build that we end up playing because they're showing off the flashiness of their combat and mechanics. They're not showing balance, they're not showing enemy variety and what they do when you do X or what they do to curb you doing Y, they're showing you how cool everything looks while you do it. Consequence of your gameplay actions isn't what these trailers are for, either in Andromeda's case or any game, from Call of Duty to Tekken to Star Ocean to Grand Theft Auto, that's not the point of what they're showing off. And as it's been the case with every single one of the game franchises I just mentioned, as they do more media and show off more of the gameplay in actual sitdowns of moderate to significant length, they start showing off the enemy tactics and give hints to how people will likely end up playing when God mode isn't enabled so that they can show off some stuff for a trailer that is largely targeted to newcomers to their respective franchises versus diehards who were locked into the purchase the moment the game logo came out. You don't have to like what you've seen so far, just like you probably didn't like this: Or this: Or this: Everything we've seen so far of Andromeda amounts to what we saw of those games via these trailers. 0__o Those trailers are badass though especially the first two. We need to get the guy who made those trailers to make Andromeda's. Yeah I remember when I first saw that second one of ME3's and thinking "Holy $%£^now we're in for it." It definitely got me fired up to blow those Reapers out of the sky or at least want to.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 11, 2017 0:25:32 GMT
Are you kidding me? Most distances you would conceivably travel while sprinting would be trivial for an N7 operative, or even a grunt with genetic augments, power armour etc. that's standard in ME. Are you kidding me? What is most distances? I meant ingame, by the way, and in that case you almost never go more than 100 meters at a time, which would be nothing for a soldier in the ME verse.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 11, 2017 1:16:07 GMT
I meant ingame, by the way, and in that case you almost never go more than 100 meters at a time, which would be nothing for a soldier in the ME verse. Except Shepard couldn't in ME1/2, but some how in ME3 has the forever run.
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Post by VanSinn on Jan 11, 2017 2:10:05 GMT
Are you kidding me? What is most distances? I meant ingame, by the way, and in that case you almost never go more than 100 meters at a time, which would be nothing for a soldier in the ME verse. On one hand, what I'm about to say is an appeal to authority logical fallacy. Forgive me for that, but on the other hand, I have a bit of knowledge on this subject. I served in the US Military for 7 years, and while I wasn't the best conditioned soldier to ever walk the face of the earth, most of the guys I served with would have a hard time sprinting for 100 meters, and being able to calm their breathing and heart rate down to the point they could take aimed shots. Running flat out for 100m isn't hard...but doing so while being able to aim and shoot afterwards is a bit trickier, especially when you consider adrenaline and other emotions involved with being in combat. Who's to say that by the time ME happens, there won't be genetic upgrades (like we saw mentioned on Noveria in the first game) that makes it easier...but I still have a bit of an issue with the rush mechanics. Most infantry tactics revolve around a "3 to 5 second rush" then down into cover, both to limit exposure to enemy fire and to limit bursts of exertion to avoid undue hampering of combat effectiveness. I'm actually for a rush mechanic that allows for 3-5 seconds of rushing, followed by a 10-15 second cooldown. This treads the line best (in my opinion) between gameplay and "realism." Of course, this is only my opinion, and I'm not too fussed with the endless rush in ME3, 'cause, hey, video game. Just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.
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Post by Addictress on Jan 11, 2017 5:35:56 GMT
I was worried that it was bullet-sponge play like DA:I as well but then come to think of it,
1. The gameplay example videos are confirmed to be on easy mode. if you recall, easy mode in the originaly trilogy would've allowed you grace in running around without cover just as well 2. Mass Effect 1 was much less cover-based, even on harder difficulties. I remember running around with very little cover in Mass Effect 1, taking a lot of damage and just shooting everywhere to get through the mission level. Yet, somehow it didn't bother me as much as Inquisition's combat. It wasn't really bullet-sponging or completely devoid of tactics, per se.
So, I don't know. We will see. Tactics might become infinitely more important on a harder difficulty. Perhaps it is simply a bit more like Mass Effect 1.
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Post by Addictress on Jan 11, 2017 5:37:24 GMT
Is it a thing from the past ? In the last gameplay videos, it seems to me that the character never stops moving in the vast environment, always being an easy target without any cover to help him, taking damage or doing damage as a bullet sponge, it seems a bit messy. I prefer organized, structured, combined actions, careful but intelligent movements to trap and surprise the enemy, ( as a soldier as well ) where my shield is hardly touched, where I hardly take damage, my companions playing a real role, and where I crush my ennemy thanks to, tactics, patience and absolute efficiency, not speed and audacity as a lonewolf. Will it be possible to play that way ? So far I've hardly seen the character hiding behind a cover, it's all run and fire in vast places where it seems difficult to find a cover. As a vanguard okay, but as a soldier, this is a bit suicidal. Unless the enemies are very bad at targetting their preys while they have accurate weapons and the difficulty in Mass effet Andromeda is really that bad. I would think that with the hardest difficulty, it couldn't be that easy to play that way without difficulty... It still remain a bit an FPS. I'm really hoping that the enemies in Mass effect Andromeda will be offensive, intelligent, disruptive, will take advantage of stupid movements, and it will very hard for us if we commit dumb mistakes on the ground. This isn't funny at all to me to be able to do a lot of things against my enemies without feeling that I have to be careful about how I'm going to kill them..... While some character builds are less reliant on cover, for the most part you need to use cover to stay alive in MEA--it's still a core component of our combat design. We've greatly expanded the mobility of the character from ME3, but for most character builds that mobility is intended to help you get from cover to cover more effectively and to have more fun doing it, not to avoid cover completely. Playing a pure run-and-gun character who's frequently on the move (and/or often airborne) is certainly possible, but you need to specifically build your character for that playstyle if you want it to be effective. And particularly on the higher difficulty modes, it requires a great deal of skill to pull that off. Hope that helps! Oh, nevermind my speculating. I didn't know we got this post.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 11, 2017 6:00:40 GMT
I served in the US Military for 7 years, Thank you for your service.
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Post by clips7 on Jan 11, 2017 6:26:55 GMT
Are you expecting crates and walls to be littered everywhere? We witnessed combat out in the wilderness twice and on some prefab platform where Sara Ryder was a Vanguard and blasting things to hell. And when she Charged up to the upper level, she went into cover for a split second before jumping back down into the fight. Cover is there. Shield and health gating is irrelevant and unnecessary in a two minute snippet showing off some of the combat mechanics. Nothing in the trailers resemble shield and health gating because: 1. They're not showing everything, evident by how every time they showed off the main menu and tabs within the main menu, they cut out significant chunks of it. 2. No one is going to die in the footage. It wasn't a live playthrough; it was a fast and loud teaser to drum up interest in the gameplay mechanics. Every game does it, every Mass Effect game previous has done it. Watch gameplay demos at E3 and you'll see characters eat attacks left and right, screen flash red, and the character run around, mowing down everything in sight after taking damage well beyond what actually kills them in the final build that we end up playing because they're showing off the flashiness of their combat and mechanics. They're not showing balance, they're not showing enemy variety and what they do when you do X or what they do to curb you doing Y, they're showing you how cool everything looks while you do it. Consequence of your gameplay actions isn't what these trailers are for, either in Andromeda's case or any game, from Call of Duty to Tekken to Star Ocean to Grand Theft Auto, that's not the point of what they're showing off. And as it's been the case with every single one of the game franchises I just mentioned, as they do more media and show off more of the gameplay in actual sitdowns of moderate to significant length, they start showing off the enemy tactics and give hints to how people will likely end up playing when God mode isn't enabled so that they can show off some stuff for a trailer that is largely targeted to newcomers to their respective franchises versus diehards who were locked into the purchase the moment the game logo came out. You don't have to like what you've seen so far, just like you probably didn't like this: Or this: Or this: Everything we've seen so far of Andromeda amounts to what we saw of those games via these trailers. 0__o Those trailers are badass though especially the first two. We need to get the guy who made those trailers to make Andromeda's. Co-sign!... ....those trailers are making me want to fire up those games right now!....You could feel the desperation and dread in those short trailers.
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