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Post by 10k on Nov 8, 2016 21:36:13 GMT
So I just got done watching the know on YouTube, and apparently Andromeda is going to have dynamic cover based system instead of that sticky crap all ME games had. If you are not familiar with it, it's (hopefully) what The Last of Us did. It is so much more fluid and looks so much more natural. Anyway what do you guys think about this? I for one really like the idea, especially if they implement it as it was in TLoU. Here's the video:
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 8, 2016 22:24:10 GMT
This made me very happy, also. I was in those old threads trying to explain the superiority of this mechanic to the uninitiated. Now, they'll just have to experience it.
We need a fist bump emoticon.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 8, 2016 22:27:03 GMT
I'm still wary about a game making the decision for me about if I want to go into cover or not(not that the omni-button was ever a good idea), but I'm willing to give it a try.
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 8, 2016 22:27:19 GMT
The best example is not TLoU (because it's slow and stealth oriented), but Tomb Raider and Rise of the Tomb Raider. If you want to have a taste of what Andromeda's combat may look like, those are the game to go.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 8, 2016 22:55:20 GMT
The best example is not TLoU (because it's slow and stealth oriented), but Tomb Raider and Rise of the Tomb Raider. If you want to have a taste of what Andromeda's combat may look like, those are the game to go. But when do you have companions in TR or RTR? It's been a while since I played TR and I'm in the middle of RTR now (no spoilers, please). No companions in RTR so far. It's a good mechanic if the AI is implemented well. That's a big if. TLoU had some pretty hilarious/frustrating situations where Ellie would insist on crossing my sight line every single f-ing time an enemy became visible. Or she'd scurry around the feet of a Clicker while I tried to sneak past (thankfully, the AI was forgiving enough to not have the Clicker notice she was right under its feet). There are a few gag reels on YT showing Ellie and other companions doing crazy stuff trying to move to new cover or help with combat:
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Post by saberchic on Nov 9, 2016 2:03:12 GMT
Is this what you guys are talking about with the cover system?
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Post by Duke Cameron on Nov 9, 2016 2:12:08 GMT
Not a fan of cover in general. I like being able to just go into the open and shoot everyone down.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 9, 2016 9:23:01 GMT
Really gonna depend on how it's implemented, especially in the MP.
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Post by Urizen on Nov 9, 2016 10:07:14 GMT
As long as PC players aren´t cursed with an omnibutton and as long as I can still abuse RHA, they can do whatever the frak they want.
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Post by helios969 on Nov 9, 2016 10:48:11 GMT
As long as PC players aren´t cursed with an omnibutton and as long as I can still abuse RHA, they can do whatever the frak they want. RHA?
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Post by helios969 on Nov 9, 2016 10:52:13 GMT
The best example is not TLoU (because it's slow and stealth oriented), but Tomb Raider and Rise of the Tomb Raider. If you want to have a taste of what Andromeda's combat may look like, those are the game to go. But when do you have companions in TR or RTR? It's been a while since I played TR and I'm in the middle of RTR now (no spoilers, please). No companions in RTR so far. It's a good mechanic if the AI is implemented well. That's a big if. TLoU had some pretty hilarious/frustrating situations where Ellie would insist on crossing my sight line every single f-ing time an enemy became visible. Or she'd scurry around the feet of a Clicker while I tried to sneak past (thankfully, the AI was forgiving enough to not have the Clicker notice she was right under its feet). There are a few gag reels on YT showing Ellie and other companions doing crazy stuff trying to move to new cover or help with combat: First, lol, that's some funny stuff. Second, I think someone got a cursed game. I mean I had a couple instances of Ellie getting in my way, but only recall one weird glitch. I did end up getting the remastered edition for PS4 so maybe it was refined by that point. TLOU was a true gaming masterpiece. One of the five best games of all time imo.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Nov 9, 2016 11:14:42 GMT
Very nice. Don't have experience with TLOU, but I have played the Tomb Raider reboot. However I'm fine with both dynamic cover and snap-to cover (Gears of War), so I'm happy either way.
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Post by hsomcokesniper on Nov 9, 2016 11:53:29 GMT
Dynamic meaning automatic? In that case pls no, or at least I hope for an option to switch it off.
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Post by Urizen on Nov 9, 2016 12:49:03 GMT
As long as PC players aren´t cursed with an omnibutton and as long as I can still abuse RHA, they can do whatever the frak they want. RHA? Right hand advantage.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 9, 2016 21:00:26 GMT
But when do you have companions in TR or RTR? It's been a while since I played TR and I'm in the middle of RTR now (no spoilers, please). No companions in RTR so far. It's a good mechanic if the AI is implemented well. That's a big if. TLoU had some pretty hilarious/frustrating situations where Ellie would insist on crossing my sight line every single f-ing time an enemy became visible. Or she'd scurry around the feet of a Clicker while I tried to sneak past (thankfully, the AI was forgiving enough to not have the Clicker notice she was right under its feet). There are a few gag reels on YT showing Ellie and other companions doing crazy stuff trying to move to new cover or help with combat: First, lol, that's some funny stuff. Second, I think someone got a cursed game. I mean I had a couple instances of Ellie getting in my way, but only recall one weird glitch. I did end up getting the remastered edition for PS4 so maybe it was refined by that point. TLOU was a true gaming masterpiece. One of the five best games of all time imo. Yeah, I played Remastered on PS4 also. I'm very slow and deliberate when I try to complete a level with 100% stealth. That might be why I had so many AI problems. The worst sections were when I had 2 companions, like Tess and Ellie or Bill and Ellie. Agree that TLOU is top five all time, and that's saying something for me. Since I hate zombie games and jump scares, there has to be a lot in a zombie game to compensate.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 9, 2016 21:08:42 GMT
TLoU did have humorous moments, but most of them came in stealth. Joel could be tensely hiding, and Ellie and company would stomp on and around ever clicker in the area. (Honestly, the player in these particular vids just needs to "Git Gud". He or she wasn't very skilled. That was what I saw more than the Ellie glitches.)
Agreed on it being a great game, and a cautionary tale in regard to squad AI programming. I'm sure our squaddies won't blunder around like Joel's companions. That would be maddening.
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Post by capn233 on Nov 9, 2016 22:42:21 GMT
I don't consider it a good thing when the game automatically takes control from you based on some sort of set assumptions.
ME1 technically had "dynamic cover" since you entered it automatically if you approached it too closely. I didn't play "Last of Us" so don't really know if people are using the term for something else.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 9, 2016 22:45:39 GMT
Mass Effect 1 used dynamic cover as well
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Post by Adhin on Nov 9, 2016 22:56:08 GMT
Guys 'dynamic cover' doesn't mean 'automatically decides for you'. That's the whole damn point of it. ME1 had automatic cover where it toggled a snap cover system on/off based off you running at it.
Dynamic cover just means your character will peak/shoot over mid cover/sides of walls when your near them, and will automatically take a lower stance when 'near' mid cover (waste high cover). It takes absolutely NO control over you as there is no 'snap'. That is the whole point, it's dynamic, it gives you greater freedom of movement.
Instead of running at cover and pressing a button so you 'snap in' or run at cover until it decides for you that your in cover your character just gets lower to the ground in proximity to said cover. You still have full range of movement beyond that. Wanna move along the cover? Just.. move along it, wanna back away just back away. There's no 'hitching', no snapping, non of that stuttery bullshit.
In short, Mass Effect 1 did NOT use dynamic cover, it used snap cover with a toggle system out of your control (so, automatic). Tomb Raider and Last of Us used a dynamic cover system as there is no 'snapping'.
Personally? I'm pretty happy about it. I'm fine with snap systems, I just vastly prefer dynamic ones. More fluid, less sticky.
edit:
Oh, and the cover system, no matter the game, has NOTHING to do with how good or bad the AI system is and isn't dependent on it. It's purely a player control and gameplay/feel thing. Having shitty, horrid AI will make any game kinda bleh if there horrid shittyness gets in your way. Frankly as long as they stay put and shoot at stuff, I'll be happy.
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Post by Nihilus on Nov 10, 2016 2:16:01 GMT
As long as it's good and fluid I don't care either way. And if The last of us is the inspiration, that's a good sign to me personally. Sounds to me that they're trying to bring the cinematic feel into the combat and hopefully making it more seamless. Thumbs up.
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Post by Element Zero on Nov 10, 2016 2:48:23 GMT
I don't consider it a good thing when the game automatically takes control from you based on some sort of set assumptions. ME1 technically had "dynamic cover" since you entered it automatically if you approached it too closely. I didn't play "Last of Us" so don't really know if people are using the term for something else. Nope, you got the idea, but it's not as "hard" as ME1. Dynamic cover is generally just crouching low when near a low wall, ducking as you scramble while under fire, or something similar. It takes into account both terrain and what you, the player, are currently doing. It never snaps you into hard cover. It's typically very easy to override dynamic input with the faintest of efforts. So, the game does vaguely "take control", but there are generally advantages to this happening. Tomb Raider is a really good example of this gameplay mechanic, as mentioned above. I don't know if gameplay vids would help much. It might be something you have to experience. Also, each game is different, so MEA may implement it differently than others we've experienced. Edit: I'd somehow missed Adhin 's excellent, descriptive post. That post does a great job of explaining the advantages of dynamic cover. It really is so smooth and intuitive that it just blends into the background, so to speak. It feels completely natural.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 10, 2016 2:56:16 GMT
Guys 'dynamic cover' doesn't mean 'automatically decides for you'. That's the whole damn point of it. ME1 had automatic cover where it toggled a snap cover system on/off based off you running at it. Dynamic cover just means your character will peak/shoot over mid cover/sides of walls when your near them, and will automatically take a lower stance when 'near' mid cover (waste high cover). It takes absolutely NO control over you as there is no 'snap'. That is the whole point, it's dynamic, it gives you greater freedom of movement. Instead of running at cover and pressing a button so you 'snap in' or run at cover until it decides for you that your in cover your character just gets lower to the ground in proximity to said cover. You still have full range of movement beyond that. Wanna move along the cover? Just.. move along it, wanna back away just back away. There's no 'hitching', no snapping, non of that stuttery bullshit. In short, Mass Effect 1 did NOT use dynamic cover, it used snap cover with a toggle system out of your control (so, automatic). Tomb Raider and Last of Us used a dynamic cover system as there is no 'snapping'. Personally? I'm pretty happy about it. I'm fine with snap systems, I just vastly prefer dynamic ones. More fluid, less sticky. edit: Oh, and the cover system, no matter the game, has NOTHING to do with how good or bad the AI system is and isn't dependent on it. It's purely a player control and gameplay/feel thing. Having shitty, horrid AI will make any game kinda bleh if there horrid shittyness gets in your way. Frankly as long as they stay put and shoot at stuff, I'll be happy. Thanks for the explanation. For some reason I thought "dynamic" had something to do with assigning cover positions for squad members. That's where all that AI stuff came from. If it's just how the controlled character interacts with cover, then Rise of the Tomb Raider is indeed state of the art. You know it's good when it's not even something you notice. It just does the right thing no matter what. Even has left/right aim swapping, auto rotates a bow horizontally if there is an obstruction from cover vertically, and other nice features.
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Post by Robo on Nov 10, 2016 2:59:38 GMT
You're welcome.
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Post by Adhin on Nov 10, 2016 5:46:37 GMT
Thanks for the explanation. For some reason I thought "dynamic" had something to do with assigning cover positions for squad members. That's where all that AI stuff came from. If it's just how the controlled character interacts with cover, then Rise of the Tomb Raider is indeed state of the art. You know it's good when it's not even something you notice. It just does the right thing no matter what. Even has left/right aim swapping, auto rotates a bow horizontally if there is an obstruction from cover vertically, and other nice features. Yeah Tomb Raider plays really well, really loved both new reboots. Was just playing some ME3 earlier today again in a long time and the game really could use a more fluid system then all the cover flopping back and forth. Try to revive but then your taking over vaulting over or vice versa. Hope that means they also add a shoulder swap button. I mean the thumb sticks didn't do much in ME2/3 anyway, no reason one can't be used for that.
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Post by napoleon on Nov 10, 2016 5:57:04 GMT
Mass Effect 1 used dynamic cover as well All I remember was equipping a shotgun and charging the enemy.
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