Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2017 21:39:25 GMT
Known: Intergalactic travel is possible If: Organic life exists beyond the Milky Way galaxy Inevitability: Organic life will eventually create synthetic life, that will turn on them and destroy them, and all other organic life as well Threat: Organic life creates synthetic life in another galaxy Synthetic life destroys organic life Synthetic life develops intergalactic travel Synthetic life comes to Milky Way galaxy Synthetic life destroys organic life here too Additional threat: Synthetic life advancing unfettered means they may come to match or surpass Reapers in numbers and technology. Conclusion: Reapers must harvest other galaxies to prevent synthetic life from destroying organic life in the Milky Way. Totally off the top of my head theory: Everything the Reapers have done so far is an experimental solution that didn't actually get the desired result. The Catalyst said it wanted Synthesis but was unable to make it work in the past. That was the real solution it wanted. However, until it could bring it about it was futile to bother with other galaxies. Once Synthesis is achieved, the Reapers (who will still be in existence) can then move to other galaxies and replicate the synthesis wave. perhaps. But it doesn't solve the problem of synthetic life developing unchecked in other galaxies, which could end up coming here. Edit: Not to mention with other galaxies to experiment in, they could have multiple tests going at once.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 21:47:44 GMT
Known: Intergalactic travel is possible I've seen no indication that the Leviathan would "know" this or care enough about it to bother including it in the AI's base programming. All you can do is make assumptions and inferences about the AI's data set and programming. The reapers are so MET. They'll not be in Andromeda.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 20, 2017 21:48:47 GMT
Known: Intergalactic travel is possible If: Organic life exists beyond the Milky Way galaxy Inevitability: Organic life will eventually create synthetic life, that will turn on them and destroy them, and all other organic life as well Threat: Organic life creates synthetic life in another galaxy Synthetic life destroys organic life Synthetic life develops intergalactic travel Synthetic life comes to Milky Way galaxy Synthetic life destroys organic life here too Additional threat: Synthetic life advancing unfettered means they may come to match or surpass Reapers in numbers and technology. Conclusion: Reapers must harvest other galaxies to prevent synthetic life from destroying organic life in the Milky Way. ReferenceERROR! Line 2: "beyond Milky Way" not defined or exceeds scope. ReferenceERROR! Line 5: "another galaxy" not defined or exceeds scope. ReferenceERROR! Line 13: "other galaxies" not defined or exceeds scope. Program not compiled.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2017 21:50:49 GMT
Known: Intergalactic travel is possible I've seen no indication that the Leviathan would "know" this or care enough about it to bother including it in the AI's base programming. All you can do is make assumptions and inferences about the AI's data set and programming. The reapers are so MET. They'll not be in Andromeda. It is a safe bet that the Reapers know it is possible, given they can travel for years without discharging their drive cores and are already millions of years more advanced than us anyway. Of course they will not be in Andromeda. But there is no reason they shouldn't be besides "That is so MET"
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2017 21:51:19 GMT
Known: Intergalactic travel is possible If: Organic life exists beyond the Milky Way galaxy Inevitability: Organic life will eventually create synthetic life, that will turn on them and destroy them, and all other organic life as well Threat: Organic life creates synthetic life in another galaxy Synthetic life destroys organic life Synthetic life develops intergalactic travel Synthetic life comes to Milky Way galaxy Synthetic life destroys organic life here too Additional threat: Synthetic life advancing unfettered means they may come to match or surpass Reapers in numbers and technology. Conclusion: Reapers must harvest other galaxies to prevent synthetic life from destroying organic life in the Milky Way. ReferenceERROR! Line 2: "beyond Milky Way" not defined or exceeds scope. ReferenceERROR! Line 5: "another galaxy" not defined or exceeds scope. ReferenceERROR! Line 13: "other galaxies" not defined or exceeds scope. Program not compiled. Don't make me bust out a "Yo dawg" meme to demonstrate Reaper scope.
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Jan 20, 2017 21:52:33 GMT
Because we are all done with that plotline after ME3
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 21:55:40 GMT
The reapers are so MET. They'll not be in Andromeda. Hmmm... that sounds familiar. Ah yes, Reapers. The immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 20, 2017 22:11:37 GMT
Don't make me bust out a "Yo dawg" meme to demonstrate Reaper scope. Yo dawg has nothing to do with scope and everything to do with assbackwards circular logic. The devs themselves want to let go of said assbackwardsness (at least seemingly and/or for the time being). This is the opposite of letting go. He who fights "art" Iakus...
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2017 22:25:28 GMT
Don't make me bust out a "Yo dawg" meme to demonstrate Reaper scope. Yo dawg has nothing to do with scope and everything to do with assbackwards circular logic. The devs themselves want to let go of said assbackwardsness (at least seemingly and/or for the time being). This is the opposite of letting go. He who fights "art" Iakus... There is zero, as in absolutely no indication that the Reapers were restricted to this galaxy. There mandate "as stated by both Leviathans and the Catalyst itself" was to preserve life at all costs. Not Milky Way life, life in general. And given they were able to justify mulching their creators as well as all other advanced life to pop up in the last billion years as fulfilling that mandate, we know they can think outside the box and twist their purpose in unexpected ways.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 20, 2017 22:49:23 GMT
There is zero, as in absolutely no indication that the Reapers were restricted to this galaxy. There mandate "as stated by both Leviathans and the Catalyst itself" was to preserve life at all costs. Not Milky Way life, life in general. And given they were able to justify mulching their creators as well as all other advanced life to pop up in the last billion years as fulfilling that mandate, we know they can think outside the box and twist their purpose in unexpected ways. You have zero reason to assume Leviathans knew, cared or even conceived of life beyond their little playpen. Terms are, by definition, limited. If I say "life", in 99% of contexts I mean life on Earth because that's the scope of my understanding and caring. "Life outside Earth" is something that only comes up as speculation, theory or fiction and there I have to specify this new term and usually within a pretty narrow definition of what life is, taken again only from what I know, i.e what I observe in my scope. Trust me. This is philosophy and some dumb machine isn't going to be able to figure it out, especially not one created by such dumb meatbags. And the holokid didn't think outside the box it dumbly did what it was supposed to, while the idiot Leviathans didn't realize their shitty programming included them. Going to the Zeroth Law isn't a breakthrough in thinking for a robot, it's just arriving at the logical endpoint of its programming. As I said, let it go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 23:22:00 GMT
It's quite simple:
It's impossible to prove, with the information we have so far, if they did or did not go to other galaxies.
Anything more it's just our speculation and/or opinion.
Is it possible? Yes.
Is it probable? No.
Mine is: going to another galaxy would be just too cost prohibitive. Assume they reap at least from 1.000.000.000 years. (That's the oldest record we have, but it might be 2 billion, 5 billion). The Leviathans were around much longer than that, and they imply they colonized the galaxy, nothing further. They also imply that only one reaper is built each cycle. So you can assume there's 20.000 to 250.000 reapers, approximately (and the universe is only 13.8 billion years old). Nothing reaching millions yet, by the time of Mass Effect. Now, discount the cycles that no Reaper was built (like the Prothean cycle, which EDI states they might have failed) and discount the cuttlefishes they lost in battle, like the dead one in ME2 or the Leviathan of Dis.
If they go to another galaxy, they might find really advanced organics (if they do this in their first few cycles) or synthetics that already destroyed their creators and might give our travelers a run for their money (Yes, I'm assuming all this on the principle that they are right about this conflict). Remember, they don't know how life shaped up in other galaxies yet. Their edge over the Leviathans was by surprise alone, because the Catalyst already knew their secrets, strengths and weaknesses and they did not perceive it as a threat (think, the most advanced organic race ever from the Milky Way was destroyed while the Catalyst didn't have a single reaper. It did all that by analyzing the galaxy for a long time before it got to a 'solution' and caught them with their pants down.)
The Reapers may have gone to other places, but I BELIEVE they didn't, because it was more effective to experiment with the Milky Way alone until the crazy kid (it was Shepard's vision, I know, but still funny) was able to come up with another solution or have enough numbers to storm a more vulnerable galaxy.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 20, 2017 23:26:41 GMT
You have zero reason to assume Leviathans knew, cared or even conceived of life beyond their little playpen. What the Leviathans knew, cared about, or conceived of is irrelevant. That's the point. The Reapers don't give a sh*t what their creators meant. The Leviathans did not know, care about, or conceive of the Reapers mulching them. Not until the Reapers started doing so and they realized their error in the not giving them proper boundaries. And I'm pretty sure when the Leviathans gave the Reapers the mandate to "preserve life at any cost" they did not mean "turn all advanced life into organic/synthetic hybrid abominations, including us" and yet somehow, it got interpreted that way. That came, again, as a result of dumb meatbags not realizing the Catalyst didn't understand or give a sh*t about their own meatbag problems. Yes, the logical conclusion of illogical programming. With no boundaries to how it can act. Including boundaries regarding the limitations of organic life.[/quote][/quote]
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Post by kali073 on Jan 21, 2017 14:52:29 GMT
Obviously the writer's don't want to have the Reapers in Andromeda. They could all be dead, under Shepard's control or under the synthesis effect. Excluding them from Andromeda means the writers won't have to chose a cannon ending. Their story ended in the original trilogy bringing them into Andromeda would hinder to new story the writers want to tell. The Reapers were, as antagonist, too powerful (there was no conventional way any species in the Milky Way could have won). They were so overwhelmingly powerful that they were difficult to handle for the writers because anytime they showed up in person, they would win for the simple reason there is nothing that can stand up to them. If the Reapers, whether as enemies or allies, show up in Andromeda the writers have to choose a canon. If it's destruction, how are they there? If it's as control/synthesis and they're allies, something equally or more powerful must exist in Andromeda or the Reapers would simply steamroll over all the problems the Milky Way races encounter? If not allies (but still synthesised/controlled) why would they go there and what would they do?
Whether they've been there before... there's no way of knowing but like other have said, I think they kept to the Milky Way because that was the scope the Catalyst was interested in. The Catalyst was looking for a better solution, the cycles was just a temporary fix, an it kept it's experiments to the Milky Way (and if you only do something once every 50 000 years, it's going to be slow as hell). I don't think it was lying, it believed its own theories about organics and synthetics, but just because the Catalyst believed it doesn't make it true. Even though the catalyst had been programmed with a faulty premise to begin with, it couldn't let go because it was a core part of it. It might have decided to spread it's "solution" to other parts of the universe once it had one that satisfied it.
Also, I don't agree with the idea that if the Reapers didn't harvest the advanced life in Andromeda, that there should be races/synthetics on their level (or close to it) there. The Reapers don't have a patent on societal destruction. It could happen (maybe not on the same scale or as suddenly as with the Reapers) because of infighting between the races of Andromeda, epidemics, cultures stagnating under the weight of their own size, religious beliefs keeping back progress, or "intelligent" life could have appeared much later than in the Milky Way etc. Reapers (or something similar) are not the only reasons Andromeda is on a similar level as the Milky Way races.
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Post by ravenous on Jan 21, 2017 16:06:24 GMT
the writers don't want the reapers in Andromeda, and if they say so it is simple as that
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 21, 2017 20:14:59 GMT
What the Leviathans knew, cared about, or conceived of is irrelevant. That's the point. The Reapers don't give a sh*t what their creators meant. The Leviathans did not know, care about, or conceive of the Reapers mulching them. Not until the Reapers started doing so and they realized their error in the not giving them proper boundaries. That's procedure not scope. And I'm pretty sure when the Leviathans gave the Reapers the mandate to "preserve life at any cost" they did not mean "turn all advanced life into organic/synthetic hybrid abominations, including us" and yet somehow, it got interpreted that way. That came, again, as a result of dumb meatbags not realizing the Catalyst didn't understand or give a sh*t about their own meatbag problems. Procedure, not scope. Yes, the logical conclusion of illogical programming. With no boundaries to how it can act. Including boundaries regarding the limitations of organic life. You have not proven how the scope could possibly have been properly defined, given how bad the Leviathans were at programming this thing.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Jan 21, 2017 20:28:32 GMT
I wonder how Bioware deals with the fact that there are no Reapers in Andromeda, allowing life to potentially take much more advanced form than in the MW. I suppose technological singularity is not an option? Or is it? Maybe its the Remnant that reached technological singularity that wiped them out.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2017 20:38:39 GMT
What the Leviathans knew, cared about, or conceived of is irrelevant. That's the point. The Reapers don't give a sh*t what their creators meant. The Leviathans did not know, care about, or conceive of the Reapers mulching them. Not until the Reapers started doing so and they realized their error in the not giving them proper boundaries. That's procedure not scope. And I'm pretty sure when the Leviathans gave the Reapers the mandate to "preserve life at any cost" they did not mean "turn all advanced life into organic/synthetic hybrid abominations, including us" and yet somehow, it got interpreted that way. That came, again, as a result of dumb meatbags not realizing the Catalyst didn't understand or give a sh*t about their own meatbag problems. Procedure, not scope. Yes, the logical conclusion of illogical programming. With no boundaries to how it can act. Including boundaries regarding the limitations of organic life. You have not proven how the scope could possibly have been properly defined, given how bad the Leviathans were at programming this thing. Still went beyond Leviathan intentions Still went beyond Leviathan intentions "Limit activities to this galaxy", maybe? Oh, and "Don't kill us"
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 21, 2017 21:29:14 GMT
I wonder how Bioware deals with the fact that there are no Reapers in Andromeda, allowing life to potentially take much more advanced form than in the MW. I suppose technological singularity is not an option? Or is it? Maybe its the Remnant that reached technological singularity that wiped them out. By literally doing anything else. I hope more people realize this isn't a binary situation. There are more potential choices than Skynet. Things like: -life not developing at all. Do you (not you, you, the hypothetical you) know how life begins, what the exact conditions have to be? I bet you don't because no one does. -life developing down an entirely different path (ie. not carbon based, not primarily visual) -life developing past our current stage and transcending into a higher form of existence (whatever that means) -life developing but stagnating at a more primitive stage -life dying out because of literally any other reason. Stars going nova, asteroids, radiation, plagues/diseases, you name it. And so much more. We could be here forever listing things. "Limit activities to this galaxy", maybe? Oh, and "Don't kill us" You misunderstand. "Properly defined" as in properly defining life at a universal level such the holokid would Reap everything, everywhere, but only if it counted as "life" (so it doesn't send the Reapers down to some random planet to try and liquify the rocks). Or put another way, what is "life"? Go ahead and try to code that. I'll wait. The Leviathans were working in a closed system (the Milky Way). They designed the holokid for that closed system (the Milky Way). They themselves were part of that closed system (the Milky Way) when it went all Zeroeth Law on their asses. That's it. It's an unforeseen consequence of their shitty programming but by no means a "transcendent" one.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 22, 2017 2:27:16 GMT
You misunderstand. "Properly defined" as in properly defining life at a universal level such the holokid would Reap everything, everywhere, but only if it counted as "life" (so it doesn't send the Reapers down to some random planet to try and liquify the rocks). Or put another way, what is "life"? Go ahead and try to code that. I'll wait. The Leviathans were working in a closed system (the Milky Way). They designed the holokid for that closed system (the Milky Way). They themselves were part of that closed system (the Milky Way) when it went all Zeroeth Law on their asses. That's it. It's an unforeseen consequence of their shitty programming but by no means a "transcendent" one. That's just it. The programming was too broad. There is no indication at all that the system was closed. They are supposed to "preserve life" And they did, by their own definition. But nowhere is there any indication there was a limitation to this galaxy. Neither the Reapers nor the Leviathans mention such a limitation. They are the proverbial AI designed to make paper clips.
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Post by Raga on Jan 22, 2017 15:21:35 GMT
Click the "BBCode" tab next to the "Preview" tab at the bottom of the text entry window. Yay, thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 16:35:16 GMT
They are supposed to "preserve life" And they did, by their own definition. I wish this theme hadn't been butchered; treated with a bit of thought (no singularity BS, with nonsensical notions like robot DNA), and good writing (no Casper the friendly Catalyst), it's a very interesting theme. In fact, Asimov uses it to link his 'Robot' and 'Empire' & 'Foundation' series. Two of our robot heroes come up with a 4th law of Robotics, which involves working for the good of the entirety of humanity (whereas the first 3 laws concern the good of individual human beings, in robots' relationships with them). But then, they end up doing something ... a little controversial. They turn the planet Earth into a radioactive hell, so that the human species has added motivation to colonize the rest of the galaxy, unencumbered by its Earthly roots. Asimov doesn't develop this too far, though, since what he was doing was essentially to link existing novel series because the publishers kept buggering him to do so, for the sake of new novels.
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Post by elanor on Jan 22, 2017 17:28:05 GMT
If you think about it the questions rises, for example civilization in Andromeda will be at similar level as Milky Way races. Why? Shouldn't they be more advanced since they don't have Reapers to wipe them out every 50 thousand years? Every race in Milky Way used technilogy left by Reapers to reach certain point so in Andromeda we should experience something different. Reapers could travel fast at long distances so in theory they could travel to another galaxies. I don't think they should be in Andromeda just I would like to hear a good explanation why they are not there.
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Post by brunobyof on Jan 22, 2017 17:54:45 GMT
Remnants could be like the protheans of andromeda that were killed by the reapers of andromeda. Same shit, different galaxy.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 22, 2017 19:13:26 GMT
That's just it. The programming was too broad. There is no indication at all that the system was closed. They are supposed to "preserve life" And they did, by their own definition. But nowhere is there any indication there was a limitation to this galaxy. Neither the Reapers nor the Leviathans mention such a limitation. They are the proverbial AI designed to make paper clips. The starting assumption that the system was closed is the only logical and sense making one. Because art imitates life. And I mean that non-sarcastically.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 22, 2017 19:36:02 GMT
That's just it. The programming was too broad. There is no indication at all that the system was closed. They are supposed to "preserve life" And they did, by their own definition. But nowhere is there any indication there was a limitation to this galaxy. Neither the Reapers nor the Leviathans mention such a limitation. They are the proverbial AI designed to make paper clips. The starting assumption that the system was closed is the only logical and sense making one. Because art imitates life. And I mean that non-sarcastically. Why? Logical sense was the intelligence wouldn't mulch their creators. Yet they did. Logic was that when ordered to "preserve organic life" from synthetics they wouldn't slaughter organic lives before they could develop synthetic life. The Reapers have defied logic by applying their own Insane Troll Logic to their "solution" So why is it suddenly logical that they limit their activities to the Milky Way?
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