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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 23:30:20 GMT
Why you got your power is completely irrelevant. What matters is that you lead the Inquisition to stop someone from taking over the world. How do you not deserve that power when you use it the way the Inquisitor does? You build up the organization to the point where it becomes a major power in Thedas. I'm trying to take personal taste into account here, but what you're saying is just contradictory to what happens in the game. Then you're better off playing a game where you play as a predefined character, like Witcher. Dragon Age is not for you. Literally the main draw to western RPGs is the ability to control most, if not every, aspect of your character, from appearance, to personality, to backstory, etc. The Inquisitor also has a myriad of pre-established backstories that other characters mention far more frequently than anyone ever did in Mass Effect. You were at the Conclave for whatever reason you chose in the game, and you obtained the Anchor by being there. How is that far fetched? The game literally gives you like 5 different reasons to have been there. What you're asking for is completely black-and-white moral options and for the game to hand you your entire character arc on a silver platter. I have no idea how you can be literally asking for less choice and freedom. Unless you really just want an entirely scripted game, in which case, by all means, play Uncharted, or Metal Gear, or Assassin's Creed, or whatever you want. I don't see any reason to make a case for taking away options in the upcoming Mass Effect. That might be true if I ever actually believed my Inquisitor grew during the experience. Considering I never felt he developed at all, having the power always felt random and unconvincing. Not to mention, the Inquisitor couldn't fully control the Mark leading it to be a convenient deus ex machina whenever BioWare felt the need to shake things up for kicks. You don't "build up the organization." Your advisors, who create the Inquisition for you, build up the organization. You are a figurehead who occasionally sits on a throne and passes out judgments that largely have no consequence to the larger story. Other than that, Cullen, Leliana, Josephine, and Cassandra are actually running the show. You are a bystander who is told you are the "leader," but you aren't actually leading anything. I think you are failing to understand my issue. As I have already indicated, DAI is the only game I have a problem with the main protagonist. I love every other BioWare game, even the controversial DA2. Why? Because in those games I actually truly believe my character grows over time. I never got that sense in DAI, and I attribute that largely to poor execution of a dialogue system BioWare wasn't familiar with. Fallout 4 had the same issue of providing a lot of meaningless choices that didn't amount to very many different outcomes. It was fluff without substance, and that cannot lead to any development. My Inquisitor's backstory of being a "human noble" hardly had any impact other than the occasional superficial perk. The only aspects that come to mind are a few exclusive missions on the War Table and then getting some additional brownie points at the Orlais Winter Palace. Other than that, nobody actually cares about your backstory because you are the "Herald" and the "Inquisitor," which are largely just as meaningless. Yep. You definitely do not understand what I'm writing. In case you haven't noticed, I've been playing BioWare games for over 14 years. I think I probably like having characters where I make choices and that have actual consequences. The problem is that DAI doesn't pass that test. I don't have a problem with DAI's dialogue system, per se. I take issue with the poor implementation and lack of character development as a result. You grew from a confused asshole in a cell to the leader of one of the most powerful organizations in Thedas who saved the world. Anything beyond that is purely up to you. It is not the game's fault that you failed to make use of the features it laid out in front of you. What? Yes you do. You absolutely do. You make all the major decisions for the organization, including where to divert your resources and armies. You expand influence by going out into the field. You recruit agents. You pass judgement. You, alone, have sole control over the very foundation of which your castle is built, to the point that you can put up Dalish tapestries for no reason other than you felt like it. You are the representative who speaks for the organization whenever you're in town, or during events. All of those things are literally in the game. What you're saying is actually just wrong. I'm failing to understand your issue because what you claim your issue to be makes zero sense. The choices in Inquisition aren't any more or less meaningful than they are in every other Bioware game. And even during scenes where you couldn't directly control the outcome, that "fluff" is actually "character development". Conversation that allows you to define your character. The thing that you are complaining is absent from the game. Um, no, I'm replaying Inquisition right now, and I only just got Skyhold, and I've had several conversations with characters in the game regarding my origins, including two conversations where I was even able to make use of unique dialogue because of it. And the Orlais Winter Palace is a major part of the game. That's actually quite a big deal that they make note of your origin there. It has more impact on things than Shepard's origins ever did, and that's an objective fact. Good for you. That has nothing to do with this conversation. DAI has more choices than Mass Effect 1 does. And I don't have any issue with you not liking how they implemented the system. My problem stems from the fact that your complaints are blatantly incorrect or inconsistent. |
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 22, 2017 23:55:45 GMT
I think the main problem with the Inquisitor's character growth and why they constantly get called out as bland has less to do with flaws in DA:I dialogue system and more to do with the fact that their backstory is paper-thin and the game, for whatever reason, gives only a handful of opportunities to actually let the character express whatever emotional turmoil or concern they may be having about actually being Inquisitor. Every companion character gets to have a sad cinematic monologue about their past but the Inquisitor never does except for one dialogue with Josephine early in the game. Literally the only time the Inquisitor felt like an actual person is when they get to have a freakout about all the crap happening to them in Trespasser, which is the final DLC.
That being said, I do like what DA: I tried to do. Dragon Age 2 and the entire ME series main problem in my eyes is that personality options Diplomacy, Sarcastic, and Aggressive or Paragon and Renegade felt and sounded like completely different characters instead just tones for a singular character. Switching from Sarcastic Hawke to Aggressive always felt weird to me in just how dissimilar they would be from one another. I know that's kind of the point but I do which those personalities were more similar so I wouldn't get that dissonance. The same goes for ME except worse the game would actively punish you for not sticking to one personality.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 23:58:08 GMT
You grew from a confused asshole in a cell to the leader of one of the most powerful organizations in Thedas who saved the world. Anything beyond that is purely up to you. It is not the game's fault that you failed to make use of the features it laid out in front of you. What? Yes you do. You absolutely do. You make all the major decisions for the organization, including where to divert your resources and armies. You expand influence by going out into the field. You recruit agents. You pass judgement. You, alone, have sole control over the very foundation of which your castle is built, to the point that you can put up Dalish tapestries for no reason other than you felt like it. You are the representative who speaks for the organization whenever you're in town, or during events. All of those things are literally in the game. What you're saying is actually just wrong. I'm failing to understand your issue because what you claim your issue to be makes zero sense. The choices in Inquisition aren't any more or less meaningful than they are in every other Bioware game. And even during scenes where you couldn't directly control the outcome, that "fluff" is actually "character development". Conversation that allows you to define your character. The thing that you are complaining is absent from the game. Um, no, I'm replaying Inquisition right now, and I only just got Skyhold, and I've had several conversations with characters in the game regarding my origins, including two conversations where I was even able to make use of unique dialogue because of it. And the Orlais Winter Palace is a major part of the game. That's actually quite a big deal that they make note of your origin there. It has more impact on things than Shepard's origins ever did, and that's an objective fact. Good for you. That has nothing to do with this conversation. DAI has more choices than Mass Effect 1 does. And I don't have any issue with you not liking how they implemented the system. My problem stems from the fact that your complaints are blatantly incorrect or inconsistent. There's no point in continuing this as it's better to agree to disagree. You do not understand my point of view because you aren't willing or able to understand it. You have a very set perception of DAI and anything that does not conform to your beliefs is "wrong," in your eyes. There have already been several posters in here who have made the same criticisms about DAI being "bland" and the choices lacking impact. It is your opinion to disagree, but clearly I am not the only one who felt that the execution of dialogue in DAI was less than stellar. All I can hope for is that MEA does a far better job than DAI did. I've played through DAI several times and I still never felt my Inquisitor did anything memorable, nor did he ever stand out. It was just poor writing from my point of view. An opinion cannot be "blatantly incorrect or inconsistent" as our views on the execution of the DAI diaolgue system are entirely subjective. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 0:02:14 GMT
I think the main problem with the Inquisitor's character growth and why they constantly get called out as bland has less to do with flaws in DA:I dialogue system and more to do with the fact that their backstory is paper-thin and the game, for whatever reason, gives only a handful of opportunities to actually let the character express whatever emotional turmoil or concern they may be having about actually being Inquisitor. Every companion character gets to have a sad cinematic monologue about their past but the Inquisitor never does except for one dialogue with Josephine early in the game. Literally the only time the Inquisitor felt like an actual person is when they get to have a freakout about all the crap happening to them in Trespasser, which is the final DLC. That being said, I do like what DA: I tried to do. Dragon Age 2 and the entire ME series main problem in my eyes is that personality options Diplomacy, Sarcastic, and Aggressive or Paragon and Renegade felt and sounded like completely different characters instead just tones for a singular character. Switching from Sarcastic Hawke to Aggressive always felt weird to me in just how dissimilar they would be from one another. I know that's kind of the point but I do which those personalities were more similar so I wouldn't get that dissonance. The same goes for ME except worse the game would actively punish you for not sticking to one personality. I agree that Trespasser is the only time I felt my Inquisitor experienced any growth. On the other hand, I also felt the events in Trespasser were rushed, forced, and was BioWare's sloppy way of tying up loose ends for future Dragon Age games. I don't think anyone here is against what DAI tried to do. I think that system, in theory, is superior. The problem is it's far more difficult to execute it properly by still retaining player agency and satisfying consequence. You want the dialogue to be personal, but it still needs to have meaning as well. It's a difficult act to balance and I can only hope MEA will do a better job. Otherwise, I fear Ryder will be just as bland and forgettable as the Inquisitor largely was. |
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Post by laxian on Feb 23, 2017 0:11:42 GMT
While I felt the Paragon/Renegade approach was a bit simplistic and limiting, Shepard really seemed to grow and develop as a character because of how starkly different those choices would affect outcomes. Dragon Age Inquisition tried to go for a dialogue system that was based less on a light/dark moral compass and more on varying degrees of tone and mood. While it provided a bit more variety and options, I felt many of the options had a lot less impact and variance with less meaningful outcomes compared to the more direct and fewer choices in the Mass Effect trilogy. We know that MEA is tossing out the Paragon/Renegade system and seems to be adding a dialogue wheel similar to DAI with varying states of mood. My other biggest issue with the DAI approach is that I never really felt that my Inquisitor grew as a character, as he just came across as a blank slate more often than not. I'm a bit concerned this same issue could plague MEA if BioWare tries to provide too many options with varying moods that ultimately make little difference. Life isn't black and white, but providing us with too many different options and being limited by a few outcomes because of time constraints and money can lead to a less satisfying result. I'd prefer DA:O or Fallout: New Vegas like dialogue  I don't love the wheel and while I don't hate the paragon/renegade system I have no problem with it being gone! I'd love to have more possibilities again (not just 4 or so  ) greetings LAX |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 0:17:14 GMT
While I felt the Paragon/Renegade approach was a bit simplistic and limiting, Shepard really seemed to grow and develop as a character because of how starkly different those choices would affect outcomes. Dragon Age Inquisition tried to go for a dialogue system that was based less on a light/dark moral compass and more on varying degrees of tone and mood. While it provided a bit more variety and options, I felt many of the options had a lot less impact and variance with less meaningful outcomes compared to the more direct and fewer choices in the Mass Effect trilogy. We know that MEA is tossing out the Paragon/Renegade system and seems to be adding a dialogue wheel similar to DAI with varying states of mood. My other biggest issue with the DAI approach is that I never really felt that my Inquisitor grew as a character, as he just came across as a blank slate more often than not. I'm a bit concerned this same issue could plague MEA if BioWare tries to provide too many options with varying moods that ultimately make little difference. Life isn't black and white, but providing us with too many different options and being limited by a few outcomes because of time constraints and money can lead to a less satisfying result. I'd prefer DA:O or Fallout: New Vegas like dialogue I don't love the wheel and while I don't hate the paragon/renegade system I have no problem with it being gone! I'd love to have more possibilities again (not just 4 or so ) greetings LAX Silent Protagonists are a thing of the past, and a entirely different discussion. Mass Effect made the voiced protagonist a staple for BioWare games and that's not going to change. The only thing we can hope for is that the voiced protagonist provides enough variety in choices and that those choices have meaningful impacts. That's a lot to ask for, and it's certainly a development nightmare for BioWare, but that's ultimately what the fans want. |
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Post by blah23 on Feb 23, 2017 0:21:14 GMT
So you hate voice protagonists and dialogue wheels don't you? |
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Nightlife
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Missing the Milky Way
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Nightlife on Feb 23, 2017 0:23:46 GMT
Yes, the Para/Gade system was binary in the ME trilogy, but, past choices "earned" you paragon or renegade convo options - I liked that. I liked that your Shep had to earn those moments, from past "good" or "bad" activities. It made full Para or Gade Sheps feel the part to me. But yeah, no middle ground Shep. I was always more binary with my Sheps anyway. But, I always pushed the dude out the window for Thane's recruitment.  I'm up for making the convo system more neutral, but, I want some choices to be earned through actions and not always available to every Ryder. I think @tibermoon confirmed it would be this way. |
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Post by amleth on Feb 23, 2017 0:47:23 GMT
So you hate voice protagonists and dialogue wheels don't you? I hate the lack of options and characters saying things entirely inconsistent with the options presented. Problem? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 0:49:32 GMT
You grew from a confused asshole in a cell to the leader of one of the most powerful organizations in Thedas who saved the world. Anything beyond that is purely up to you. It is not the game's fault that you failed to make use of the features it laid out in front of you. What? Yes you do. You absolutely do. You make all the major decisions for the organization, including where to divert your resources and armies. You expand influence by going out into the field. You recruit agents. You pass judgement. You, alone, have sole control over the very foundation of which your castle is built, to the point that you can put up Dalish tapestries for no reason other than you felt like it. You are the representative who speaks for the organization whenever you're in town, or during events. All of those things are literally in the game. What you're saying is actually just wrong. I'm failing to understand your issue because what you claim your issue to be makes zero sense. The choices in Inquisition aren't any more or less meaningful than they are in every other Bioware game. And even during scenes where you couldn't directly control the outcome, that "fluff" is actually "character development". Conversation that allows you to define your character. The thing that you are complaining is absent from the game. Um, no, I'm replaying Inquisition right now, and I only just got Skyhold, and I've had several conversations with characters in the game regarding my origins, including two conversations where I was even able to make use of unique dialogue because of it. And the Orlais Winter Palace is a major part of the game. That's actually quite a big deal that they make note of your origin there. It has more impact on things than Shepard's origins ever did, and that's an objective fact. Good for you. That has nothing to do with this conversation. DAI has more choices than Mass Effect 1 does. And I don't have any issue with you not liking how they implemented the system. My problem stems from the fact that your complaints are blatantly incorrect or inconsistent. There's no point in continuing this as it's better to agree to disagree. You do not understand my point of view because you aren't willing or able to understand it. You have a very set perception of DAI and anything that does not conform to your beliefs is "wrong," in your eyes. There have already been several posters in here who have made the same criticisms about DAI being "bland" and the choices lacking impact. It is your opinion to disagree, but clearly I am not the only one who felt that the execution of dialogue in DAI was less than stellar. All I can hope for is that MEA does a far better job than DAI did. I've played through DAI several times and I still never felt my Inquisitor did anything memorable, nor did he ever stand out. It was just poor writing from my point of view. An opinion cannot be "blatantly incorrect or inconsistent" as our views on the execution of the DAI diaolgue system are entirely subjective. Implying that the only problem I had with your argument was the fact that you said it was "bland". I was quite transparent with why I thought what I thought, and the things that I said were "wrong" were not even related to the "blandness" of anything, but rather things that were, actually, untrue. The "it's just my opinion" thing cannot apply to things you can actually prove. You can prove that the Inquisitor's backstory comes up more often than Shepard's. But whatever. I'm just an opinion nazi, clearly. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 2:27:18 GMT
Implying that the only problem I had with your argument was the fact that you said it was "bland". I was quite transparent with why I thought what I thought, and the things that I said were "wrong" were not even related to the "blandness" of anything, but rather things that were, actually, untrue. The "it's just my opinion" thing cannot apply to things you can actually prove. You can prove that the Inquisitor's backstory comes up more often than Shepard's. But whatever. I'm just an opinion nazi, clearly. Again, it's all a matter of perspective. I found DAI's story and protagonist to be incredibly lacking, largely because of the execution of the dialogue system. You disagree. What I found to be trivial mechanics you believe to be major mechanics. It all depends on your point of view. You can try and suggest it's black and white, but it does nothing to further your point or anything else. I'm happy you enjoyed DAI and you believe the DAI dialogue system is absolutely perfect. I do not share your views. I hope that MEA improves on it vastly for a lot of the reasons I have provided, as well as many others, in this thread. |
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jastall
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Post by jastall on Feb 23, 2017 2:29:30 GMT
DAI style allows for many more choices and nuance than the Boy Scout vs Edgelord meter. They only need to have Ryder be a bit more expressive than the Inquisitor and I'll be fully satisfied.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 2:35:25 GMT
Implying that the only problem I had with your argument was the fact that you said it was "bland". I was quite transparent with why I thought what I thought, and the things that I said were "wrong" were not even related to the "blandness" of anything, but rather things that were, actually, untrue. The "it's just my opinion" thing cannot apply to things you can actually prove. You can prove that the Inquisitor's backstory comes up more often than Shepard's. But whatever. I'm just an opinion nazi, clearly. Again, it's all a matter of perspective. I found DAI's story and protagonist to be incredibly lacking, largely because of the execution of the dialogue system. You disagree. What I found to be trivial mechanics you believe to be major mechanics. It all depends on your point of view. You can try and suggest it's black and white, but it does nothing to further your point or anything else. I'm happy you enjoyed DAI and you believe the DAI dialogue system is absolutely perfect. I do not share your views. I hope that MEA improves on it vastly for a lot of the reasons I have provided, as well as many others, in this thread. And again, you're making implications that I never even vaguely alluded to. I never said DAI's story and protagonist were great. I simply pointed out that they both did, in fact, things that you claimed they didn't. Whether or not it "worked" is what's subjective. The fact that it happened is not. I did not suggest it was black and white. If I recall correctly, I said that's what you were doing. My point has been made. You're the one avoiding it by playing the "it's my opinion" card. A card which isn't at all relevant to the conversation we're having, again. I didn't say either of those things. Are you being purposefully intellectually dishonest, or are you actually delusional? I don't care what you and others share in terms of your opinions. We were not discussing your opinions. We were discussing things that you claimed are not in Inquisition that factually are. Once again, whether or not they "worked" is the only subjective thing here. If you can't think of anything to say, stop fucking replying. Don't twist my words around to suit you. That's really annoying. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 2:42:54 GMT
Again, it's all a matter of perspective. I found DAI's story and protagonist to be incredibly lacking, largely because of the execution of the dialogue system. You disagree. What I found to be trivial mechanics you believe to be major mechanics. It all depends on your point of view. You can try and suggest it's black and white, but it does nothing to further your point or anything else. I'm happy you enjoyed DAI and you believe the DAI dialogue system is absolutely perfect. I do not share your views. I hope that MEA improves on it vastly for a lot of the reasons I have provided, as well as many others, in this thread. And again, you're making implications that I never even vaguely alluded to. I never said DAI's story and protagonist were great. I simply pointed out that they both did, in fact, things that you claimed they didn't. Whether or not it "worked" is what's subjective. The fact that it happened is not. I did not suggest it was black and white. If I recall correctly, I said that's what you were doing. My point has been made. You're the one avoiding it by playing the "it's my opinion" card. A card which isn't at all relevant to the conversation we're having, again. I didn't say either of those things. Are you being purposefully intellectually dishonest, or are you actually delusional? I don't care what you and others share in terms of your opinions. We were not discussing your opinions. We were discussing things that you claimed are not in Inquisition that factually are. Once again, whether or not they "worked" is the only subjective thing here. If you can't think of anything to say, stop fucking replying. Don't twist my words around to suit you. That's really annoying. Well then your feelings of DAI allude me, although I assume you like the game as you are so vehemently motivated to defend it. Again, I felt the "origin" of our characters was largely filler, especially for non-human races that were tacked on later (the Inquisitor was originally going to be a human only like Hawke). I'm not implying you believe DAI is black and white. What I am implying is, from you perspective, you are absolutely right and I am absolutely wrong. Herein lies the "black and white" comparison I attributed to you. I'm really not all that interested in arguing with you. What I do believe we both can agree on is that we want MEA's dialogue system to be better than DAI. Can we at least agree to that? Everything else is largely moot and destructive as it accomplishes nothing. |
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Cassandra
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Cassandra on Feb 23, 2017 2:59:32 GMT
Too often did I find the binary choice silly or poorly thought out. A prime example being your decision at the end of ME2. Keeping the Collector base is treated as evil because it's forcefully handed over to Cerberus yet an argument could be made you keep it to show demonstrable proof of the Reaper's existence and/or to research a way to defeat them. Likewise, opting not to cure the Genophage made Shepard come across as scum when it's perfectly reasonable to fear the Korgan wouldn't change their ways despite Wrex's best efforts. It's actually why I prefer Wreav for that story arc. It makes the whole scenario feel like a choice. For those reasons, I'm alright to see ME:A move away from the binary choices. It just allows for more nuanced decision making. But isn't it what a role playing game is about? Forming your character? In DAI you start neutral in every situation, which is of course easier for the player but lacks character. I felt the opposite. Shepard came across like a brick half the time due to the lack of emotional input. We rarely were allowed an opportunity to express a personality whereas Dragon Age at least let you make Hawke/The Inquisitor humour, rash, sarcastic, altruistic and etc. They were neutral on stances we hadn't yet decided on ourselves. Take for instance, Shepard and the Alliance. At no point could I portray Shepard having any misgivings towards the Alliance despite how poorly they treated her in ME2. She just goes along with it and even salutes. I want the ability to play a somewhat belligerent character who openly expresses her dislike. It may not change the outcome any but being able to express oneself is important. Mass Effect felt at odds with that philosophy. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 3:00:22 GMT
And again, you're making implications that I never even vaguely alluded to. I never said DAI's story and protagonist were great. I simply pointed out that they both did, in fact, things that you claimed they didn't. Whether or not it "worked" is what's subjective. The fact that it happened is not. I did not suggest it was black and white. If I recall correctly, I said that's what you were doing. My point has been made. You're the one avoiding it by playing the "it's my opinion" card. A card which isn't at all relevant to the conversation we're having, again. I didn't say either of those things. Are you being purposefully intellectually dishonest, or are you actually delusional? I don't care what you and others share in terms of your opinions. We were not discussing your opinions. We were discussing things that you claimed are not in Inquisition that factually are. Once again, whether or not they "worked" is the only subjective thing here. If you can't think of anything to say, stop fucking replying. Don't twist my words around to suit you. That's really annoying. Well then your feelings of DAI allude me, although I assume you like the game as you are so vehemently motivated to defend it. Again, I felt the "origin" of our characters was largely filler, especially for non-human races that were tacked on later (the Inquisitor was originally going to be a human only like Hawke). I'm not implying you believe DAI is black and white. What I am implying is, from you perspective, you are absolutely right and I am absolutely wrong. Herein lies the "black and white" comparison I attributed to you. I'm really not all that interested in arguing with you. What I do believe we both can agree on is that we want MEA's dialogue system to be better than DAI. Can we at least agree to that? Everything else is largely moot and destructive as it accomplishes nothing. I'm indifferent to it. It's fine in some parts, but not fine enough to warrant me playing it over and over, as I did with the first two Mass Effects. I don't have any problem with you not liking something, what I have a problem with is the fact that I've given you evidence to prove that things you said were not present in the game were, in fact, there. You don't have to like them, but that's on you, not the game. The fact that those things are in the game is not subjective. There's no gray area in blatant facts. The gray exists in your opinion of those facts. The option to develop your character exists, whether you used it or not. Leading the Inquisition is something the Inquisitor does through gameplay, regardless of whether or not you felt it was adequate. The Inquisitor's backstory comes up in the game more often than Shepard's, regardless of whether or not you feel it was done in a meaningful way. My point is that things you're claiming aren't there are actually objectively there. You just don't like them. That's an entirely different conversation. As to the last bit, yes, better is obviously... better? I was a bit annoyed, and I was acting like a bit of an ass, and I apologize, but I really dislike trying to make a point and feeling like I'm being directly misrepresented in that point. I have my own problems with Inquisition, and I would like Andromeda to be better, but as a whole, I feel the dialogue system in Inquisition leads to a lot more nuance in terms of character than the Paragon/Renegade system ever did. Especially considering the fact that some options in the game are locked out to you by playing Renegade, so Paragon is really the only way to even play the game. That really means that, if you want to play all of Mass Effect, Paragon is the only choice. I think I remember one quest in ME1 that could only be accepted by picking the Renegade option. Compare that to EVERY OTHER quest in the game. Paragon, Paragon, Paragon... Not to mention loyalty missions and character relationships. Going Renegade would almost certainly lock you out of certain conversations more often than not. It's really a poor system. |
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Post by lauzerz on Feb 23, 2017 3:08:51 GMT
The black/white options of playing Renegade/Paragon were only good if you were playing a black/white morality person. If you played like, I dont know, a human being, you could get locked out of certain options and I found that unappealing.
But at the same time having to worry about the approval of your companions can be quite stressful also. I've replayed countless scenes because the bae or the bff dissaproved of my actions and I couldn't handle the pressure.
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Post by disi on Feb 23, 2017 3:28:30 GMT
But isn't it what a role playing game is about? Forming your character? In DAI you start neutral in every situation, which is of course easier for the player but lacks character. I felt the opposite. Shepard came across like a brick half the time due to the lack of emotional input. We rarely were allowed an opportunity to express a personality whereas Dragon Age at least let you make Hawke/The Inquisitor humour, rash, sarcastic, altruistic and etc. They were neutral on stances we hadn't yet decided on ourselves. Take for instance, Shepard and the Alliance. At no point could I portray Shepard having any misgivings towards the Alliance despite how poorly they treated her in ME2. She just goes along with it and even salutes. I want the ability to play a somewhat belligerent character who openly expresses her dislike. It may not change the outcome any but being able to express oneself is important. Mass Effect felt at odds with that philosophy. I did have the same feeling in ME2, but having a feeling in a game is good. Since my Shepdard romanced Ash it was really tragic, she was happy to see him but the moment she learned about Cerberus she went hostile. I could respect that, the "its in my blood speech". We weren't in Alliance territory anyway and being a spectre meant little in the Terminus Systems. Overall I had little to do with the old characters during the entire episode and did play pretty much renegade. Everyone around me was a terrorist or worse in my eyes, except the few old crew members I could trust. The Illusive Man and Miranda got so much shit from me, I wondered why they didn't kick me off the ship Just as an example, if you do not save the council in ME1, they will still throw it back at you in ME3. But the council is pretty much worthless during the entire saga... p.s. I just hope every dialogue will have a proper camera control and is personal not like in DAI. |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 3:30:45 GMT
I'm indifferent to it. It's fine in some parts, but not fine enough to warrant me playing it over and over, as I did with the first two Mass Effects. I don't have any problem with you not liking something, what I have a problem with is the fact that I've given you evidence to prove that things you said were not present in the game were, in fact, there. You don't have to like them, but that's on you, not the game. The fact that those things are in the game is not subjective. There's no gray area in blatant facts. The gray exists in your opinion of those facts. The option to develop your character exists, whether you used it or not. Leading the Inquisition is something the Inquisitor does through gameplay, regardless of whether or not you felt it was adequate. The Inquisitor's backstory comes up in the game more often than Shepard's, regardless of whether or not you feel it was done in a meaningful way. My point is that things you're claiming aren't there are actually objectively there. You just don't like them. That's an entirely different conversation. As to the last bit, yes, better is obviously... better? I was a bit annoyed, and I was acting like a bit of an ass, and I apologize, but I really dislike trying to make a point and feeling like I'm being directly misrepresented in that point. I have my own problems with Inquisition, and I would like Andromeda to be better, but as a whole, I feel the dialogue system in Inquisition leads to a lot more nuance in terms of character than the Paragon/Renegade system ever did. Especially considering the fact that some options in the game are locked out to you by playing Renegade, so Paragon is really the only way to even play the game. That really means that, if you want to play all of Mass Effect, Paragon is the only choice. I think I remember one quest in ME1 that could only be accepted by picking the Renegade option. Compare that to EVERY OTHER quest in the game. Paragon, Paragon, Paragon... Not to mention loyalty missions and character relationships. Going Renegade would almost certainly lock you out of certain conversations more often than not. It's really a poor system. No worries here. I wasn't trying to misconstrue your views or anything else. I just merely see a lot of systemic issues with DAI through the 200+ hours I've invested into the game. I'd probably say my biggest problem with the game is it was far too ambitious for its own good. BioWare tried to do too much and I believe everything, as a result, suffered. My issue with the game far more than anything else is execution, and I believe BioWare had mixed results on that front. I genuinely agree that the DAI dialogue system does provide you with more choice and variety. It's not black and white, as was the case with Mass Effect. I just felt that change in delivery also led to outcomes being lost in translation due to BioWare having to account for far more choices than they are used to. Luckily, I have faith that BioWare can learn from their mistakes, as is usually the case with every game, and provide a far more fulfilling experience than their last game. The black/white options of playing Renegade/Paragon were only good if you were playing a black/white morality person. If you played like, I dont know, a human being, you could get locked out of certain options and I found that unappealing. But at the same time having to worry about the approval of your companions can be quite stressful also. I've replayed countless scenes because the bae or the bff dissaproved of my actions and I couldn't handle the pressure. I actually found approval oftentimes to be rather trivial, at least with regards to romance. I always made decisions I felt were the best for the Inquisition, and I didn't let Cassandra's views get in the way of my beliefs. We certainly did not always agree, yet I never had any issue romancing her, as just talking to her and doing her loyalty mission seemed to be enough. Truth be told, the approval system should probably have more of an impact. Of course, individuals like yourself probably wouldn't be a huge fan of that idea either. I'm rather indifferent to the system as it didn't really seem to work in DAI. Of course, I also wasn't a jerk to all of my companions. |
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 3:36:09 GMT
Well then your feelings of DAI allude me, although I assume you like the game as you are so vehemently motivated to defend it. Again, I felt the "origin" of our characters was largely filler, especially for non-human races that were tacked on later (the Inquisitor was originally going to be a human only like Hawke). I'm not implying you believe DAI is black and white. What I am implying is, from you perspective, you are absolutely right and I am absolutely wrong. Herein lies the "black and white" comparison I attributed to you. I'm really not all that interested in arguing with you. What I do believe we both can agree on is that we want MEA's dialogue system to be better than DAI. Can we at least agree to that? Everything else is largely moot and destructive as it accomplishes nothing. What does any of this have to do with the dialogue system? |
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 3:51:29 GMT
Well then your feelings of DAI allude me, although I assume you like the game as you are so vehemently motivated to defend it. Again, I felt the "origin" of our characters was largely filler, especially for non-human races that were tacked on later (the Inquisitor was originally going to be a human only like Hawke). I'm not implying you believe DAI is black and white. What I am implying is, from you perspective, you are absolutely right and I am absolutely wrong. Herein lies the "black and white" comparison I attributed to you. I'm really not all that interested in arguing with you. What I do believe we both can agree on is that we want MEA's dialogue system to be better than DAI. Can we at least agree to that? Everything else is largely moot and destructive as it accomplishes nothing. What does any of this have to do with the dialogue system? Nothing. You are merely quoting a portion of a long banter back and forth with the numerous issues I had with DAI. However, as I suggested in the OP, my biggest issue with DAI was the execution of DAI dialogue. In theory, it's the superior system because it provides the most options and nuance. The problem is the outcomes won't necessarily be satisfying due to BioWare only being able to make so many different consequences meaningful. Choice is good, but only when it doesn't come at the expense of impactful consequences. |
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 5:06:39 GMT
So the thread's just gone off course?
OK. I was asking because I didn't quite see how P/R had anything to do with the problems you're trying to solve. (Assuming they're real problems in the first place. Honestly, I thought Snow Whie had the better of that argument.)
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 6:21:43 GMT
So the thread's just gone off course? OK. I was asking because I didn't quite see how P/R had anything to do with the problems you're trying to solve. (Assuming they're real problems in the first place. Honestly, I thought Snow Whie had the better of that argument.) Not any longer. I just found the execution for the dialogue system in DAI to be poor. That's not to say P/R was "better," but it was at least consistent and you had an idea of what you were going to get with each choice you made. My only hope is that BioWare received plenty of quality feedback from DAI (I certainly made a few threads about it on the old BSN) and that was used to perfect and improve the dialogue system in MEA. |
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Post by kingjuly on Feb 23, 2017 6:31:29 GMT
Definitely prefer the DA:I system. I hate how subjective the whole paragon and renegade thing was. I much prefer the ability to react based on the emotion or tone I want to put forth rather than just good or bad...which again, is subjective.
Additionally, I kinda hope we dont see visually how our companions think of us. Its kinda dumb that you can see something like that to begin with and Id prefer to be displayed via how they respond to us or treat us. It should be obvious when someone is pissed at your or when they like you.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 7:05:31 GMT
Definitely prefer the DA:I system. I hate how subjective the whole paragon and renegade thing was. I much prefer the ability to react based on the emotion or tone I wont to put forth rather than just good or bad...which again, is subjective. Additionally, I kinda hope we dont see visually how our companions think of us. Its kinda dumb that you can see something like that to begin with and Id prefer to be displayed via how they respond to us or treat us. It should be obvious when someone is pissed at your or when they like you. If you are referring to the arbitrary "approval rating" indicator, I agree it can be a bit immersion-breaking. That would actually be really neat if BioWare could show whether or not a companion was happy or not just by their facial gestures. LA Noir did a respectable job with face capture and really made that a part of the gameplay experience. I'm not even sure if we are aware of the approval rating being in this game or not. There's been suggestions that you can upset your squadmates with your decisions, but not a lot of specifics. |
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