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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 6:11:50 GMT
While I felt the Paragon/Renegade approach was a bit simplistic and limiting, Shepard really seemed to grow and develop as a character because of how starkly different those choices would affect outcomes. Dragon Age Inquisition tried to go for a dialogue system that was based less on a light/dark moral compass and more on varying degrees of tone and mood. While it provided a bit more variety and options, I felt many of the options had a lot less impact and variance with less meaningful outcomes compared to the more direct and fewer choices in the Mass Effect trilogy.
We know that MEA is tossing out the Paragon/Renegade system and seems to be adding a dialogue wheel similar to DAI with varying states of mood. My other biggest issue with the DAI approach is that I never really felt that my Inquisitor grew as a character, as he just came across as a blank slate more often than not. I'm a bit concerned this same issue could plague MEA if BioWare tries to provide too many options with varying moods that ultimately make little difference. Life isn't black and white, but providing us with too many different options and being limited by a few outcomes because of time constraints and money can lead to a less satisfying result.
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Good comedy is all about.......timing!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by General Aetius on Feb 22, 2017 6:15:15 GMT
You assume that everyone has played DAI.....
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tehprincessj
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: tehprincessj
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Post by tehprincessj on Feb 22, 2017 6:16:12 GMT
My biggest worry is losing the ability to use charm or intimidation to resolve impossible situations.
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SKAR
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Can you dig it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: SKAR5903
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Post by SKAR on Feb 22, 2017 6:16:52 GMT
Dai or MEA type of dialogue system. Paragon/renegade was good at the time but limiting. Good or bad was obvious. Now you don't know what is gonna happen. I like the whole gray theme goin on.
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SKAR
N3
Can you dig it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: SKAR5903
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Post by SKAR on Feb 22, 2017 6:18:35 GMT
My biggest worry is losing the ability to use charm or intimidation to resolve impossible situations. But why be limited by two choices?
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Post by ProbeAway on Feb 22, 2017 6:22:05 GMT
DAI, but as a side note I'd like to be able to see the current approval rating for each of my companions (if that is even a thing in MEA).
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 6:26:24 GMT
You assume that everyone has played DAI..... I explained in general terms how DAI's dialogue system works. You could always watch a few videos on YouTube to see examples. My biggest worry is losing the ability to use charm or intimidation to resolve impossible situations. I thought those were interesting additions to the paragon/renegade system, but they lacked depth. I wouldn't mind seeing BioWare reconsidering how to implement those systems and doing it in a more meaningful way. I'm not really a fan of implementation that becomes too dependent on numbers or character progression choices, as that can be less immersive. Dai or MEA type of dialogue system. Paragon/renegade was good at the time but limiting. Good or bad was obvious. Now you do the know what is gonna happen. I like the whole gray theme goin on. I appreciate the gray theme approach. My concern is I didn't feel like a lot of the choices in DAI had satisfying impact, whereas largely that wasn't a problem under Paragon/Renegade in the Mass Effect trilogy. My biggest worry is losing the ability to use charm or intimidation to resolve impossible situations. But why be limited by two choices? If anything, I think there should be several ways of being able to diffuse one of those impossible situations. When you fine tune a system to be too rigid and specific, you inevitably alienate certain players who did not make those choices. I never liked seeing certain options grayed out just because I didn't pick up a particular skill in a character tree or go high enough through that path. If that system were to stay, at least give us more choices in other paths to help provide more variety and inclusiveness.
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ryerye17
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Biotic God
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Post by ryerye17 on Feb 22, 2017 6:46:38 GMT
Par/Ren for me. Yes, it's more simplistic but it's also easier to get the best ending. Pure Par run just makes you feel like a hero with a lot of friends. Pure Ren run makes you feel like a monster.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 6:55:08 GMT
Par/Ren for me. Yes, it's more simplistic but it's also easier to get the best ending. Pure Par run just makes you feel like a hero with a lot of friends. Pure Ren run makes you feel like a monster. One thing I actually didn't like about ME3 was how certain pivotal moments were locked behind making every paragon/renegade choice regarding important characters. The example I'm referring to is obviously whether you are able to persuade TIM to shoot himself in the head or not. I remember convincing Saren to do it in ME1 being far easier. However, if you miss even one paragon choice regarding Cerberus/TIM, he will not kill himself. I found that a little frustrating considering you would go through presumably 50+ hours of story just to realize you made one mistake on that one mission from 44 hours ago. But as you pointed out, because the choices in paragon/renegade are more direct, it gives BioWare a bit more flexibility to really customize the differences in those endings. That's a lot harder to achieve in a system that provides varying tones of mood that won't necessarily change the outcome all that much.
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zarrokhai
N3
Biotic 'Smash' can mean a whole other thing. Ask Jack ;)
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 287 Likes: 583
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Biotic 'Smash' can mean a whole other thing. Ask Jack ;)
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Post by zarrokhai on Feb 22, 2017 6:59:21 GMT
I enjoyed the par/ren system but I think DA:I does a better job with the dialogue wheel. Still, it's slightly sad to see the par/ren system go. It felt like a staple for the Mass Effect Trilogy. But change is sometimes a good thing and I'm excited to see the new and improved dialogue wheel.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 7:17:45 GMT
I enjoyed the par/ren system but I think DA:I does a better job with the dialogue wheel. Still, it's slightly sad to see the par/ren system go. It felt like a staple for the Mass Effect Trilogy. But change is sometimes a good thing and I'm excited to see the new and improved dialogue wheel. Oddly enough, the Paragon/Renegade system was just a leftover feature from the Light/Dark system in KOTOR. BioWare decided to keep it and it worked fairly well for Mass Effect, especially with the introduction of interrupts. I do agree that the DAI approach would, in theory, make more sense and be better. I'm just worried about the implementation, as I felt it had mixed results in DAI. That being said, I hope MEA improves upon everything DAI did, including the dialogue choices.
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ATR16
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
Origin: ATR16
XBL Gamertag: pydsie31
PSN: pyder31
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Post by ATR16 on Feb 22, 2017 7:25:47 GMT
I was really underwhelmed with the options in DAI. They were usually all so... scholarly. It was tough to ever pick an "intimidate" option that wasn't just "FUCK YOU AND TIME TO DIE". They all felt paragon by default, just said in different ways.
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Post by disi on Feb 22, 2017 7:29:38 GMT
Can someone explain what the DAI system is? AFAIK there is no influence at all how NPC react to you, except for if your followers open up romance dialogue in the camp. In ME you can build up or shape your Shepard to be able to make NPC do things they wouldn't do if they either talk to an asshole or a nice guy.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 22, 2017 7:39:01 GMT
I think there are more advantages of a system similar to Dragon Age over what they did with paragon/renegade. A lot of the time when I tried to get my Shepard to go for the bottom right instead of the top right option it generally felt to be a more extreme change of view that didn't really fit a character, with Dragon Age you don't have the extremes, but it allowed me to feel there were more options to what I would pick to say.
One thing that always annoyed me with Mass Effect is I generally felt punished by not always picking the same type of response for I would lose out in some way later on. With Mass Effect 1 it would impact several quests and the showdown with Wrex. In Mass Effect 2 it was the Miranda/Jack argument or the Tali/Legion argument. While in Mass Effect 3 if it wasn't high enough you wouldn't have all the dialogue options with The Illusive Man. If it was something either then not picking the one of two different dialogue options it would be one thing, but that is what was limiting final choices I generally just stuck being one extreme or the other.
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Cypher
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Origin: ItsFreakinJesus
XBL Gamertag: ItsFreakinJesus
PSN: TheMadTitan
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Post by Cypher on Feb 22, 2017 7:44:47 GMT
Inquisition. Paragon and Renegade were worthless and irrelevant to me since the lines I chose were based on the context of the scene, tone, what happened prior to the conversation wheel, and my mood. Choices weren't made to be a good guy or a bad guy or to fill up a meter, they were chosen on a whim because I felt like it.
Sometimes, I like to talk to Ashley about her family; sometimes I like to make fun of her for believing in God. Sometimes, I let that teenager on Omega get shot by Garrus because that's what his dumbass gets.
Since it's an inherently worthless system to me, something that expands on how I use the system is the superior one, which is why talking to people in all three Dragon Age games has always resulted in a more enjoyable dialog control experience than Mass Effect.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 22, 2017 7:50:26 GMT
Can someone explain what the DAI system is? AFAIK there is no influence at all how NPC react to you, except for if your followers open up romance dialogue in the camp. In ME you can build up or shape your Shepard to be able to make NPC do things they wouldn't do if they either talk to as asshole or a nice guy. In reality they are basically the same thing, just with Dragon Age: Inquisition you have more then two types of responses and only a couple will be available at any one time. I didn't play Inquisition the same way as other BioWare games, but with Dragon Age 2 you would develop a reputation in one of three categories of Diplomatic/Humorous/Aggressive it was just that multiple different dialogue tones impacted those three reputations you could gain. It did impact NPCs reaction to you, it was just a lot more subtle then Mass Effect and at the same time it impacted more NPCs then Mass Effect did as well.
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Post by disi on Feb 22, 2017 7:53:02 GMT
Yes, I never managed to play a full paragon or renegade. This is choice and consequence. Usually my Shepard was very grey and towards the end I went more and more renegade, because it felt more like "whatever the cost". To a point where followers left me or killed themself. Since I never played that far in DAI, I cannot judge if this may happen or if there are any those consequences, but I never felt it is important what I do. Help the Refugees, spread the word about the Inquisition, support the Inquisition... Cassandra either approves or slightly approves or disapproves (I think). That is it. By removing consequence, this is of course better for the player. You can do whatever you want and have all the options in one playthrough. p.s. Will this ever have consequences apart from Cassandras approval rating?
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zaefkol
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Post by zaefkol on Feb 22, 2017 8:04:36 GMT
Dai or MEA type of dialogue system. Paragon/renegade was good at the time but limiting. Good or bad was obvious. Now you don't know what is gonna happen. I like the whole gray theme goin on. Gray is Bae. . . . I'm sorry; I'm tired and really wanted to write something that rhymed.
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fatherjerusalem
N2
I used to think that I was cynical and a pessimist. Then I found the BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: fatherjerusalem
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I used to think that I was cynical and a pessimist. Then I found the BSN.
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Post by fatherjerusalem on Feb 22, 2017 8:21:59 GMT
Paragon/Renegade... Light Side/Dark Side... any system where there's a binary choice and no middle ground... is not going to be as good as a system where there's multiple options.
Even DA2's dialogue tone was better than Paragon/Renegade because it gave you three distinct options.
ME2 actively punished you for trying to play a middle ground character. SWTOR actively punishes you for playing a middle ground character. If you're going to do a morality system, there needs to be a "neutral" option, or you just need to come up with a different system.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 8:23:17 GMT
I was really underwhelmed with the options in DAI. They were usually all so... scholarly. It was tough to ever pick an "intimidate" option that wasn't just "FUCK YOU AND TIME TO DIE". They all felt paragon by default, just said in different ways. I definitely hear you. I just felt the overall tone of the choices was rather muted. With Mass Effect you had clear contrasts in tone and style. In DAI, a lot of the choices, while slightly different, really didn't change the outcome. Variety is great, but I still want to feel as if my choices have impact. Fallout 4 was similar where you had multiple choices but they would actually lead to the same consequence. What's the point of even having choices then? Can someone explain what the DAI system is? AFAIK there is no influence at all how NPC react to you, except for if your followers open up romance dialogue in the camp. In ME you can build up or shape your Shepard to be able to make NPC do things they wouldn't do if they either talk to an asshole or a nice guy. There is definitely an approval system in DAI. You can push companions to leave if you do things absolutely detestable to their sensibilities. It just requires a lot of effort, likely because BioWare didn't want to face backlash from players accidentally making too many companions leave. I think there are more advantages of a system similar to Dragon Age over what they did with paragon/renegade. A lot of the time when I tried to get my Shepard to go for the bottom right instead of the top right option it generally felt to be a more extreme change of view that didn't really fit a character, with Dragon Age you don't have the extremes, but it allowed me to feel there were more options to what I would pick to say. One thing that always annoyed me with Mass Effect is I generally felt punished by not always picking the same type of response for I would lose out in some way later on. With Mass Effect 1 it would impact several quests and the showdown with Wrex. In Mass Effect 2 it was the Miranda/Jack argument or the Tali/Legion argument. While in Mass Effect 3 if it wasn't high enough you wouldn't have all the dialogue options with The Illusive Man. If it was something either then not picking the one of two different dialogue options it would be one thing, but that is what was limiting final choices I generally just stuck being one extreme or the other. I definitely agree that some of the decisions in Mass Effect just felt out of character at times. They were either way too nice or way too mean. It just felt out of place and was a bit uncharacteristic, which was pretty jarring at the time when making the choice. I definitely agree that locking later decisions in the game behind arbitrary paragon/renegade choices was poor design choice. Because of this, I missed the opportunity to convince TIM to blow his brains out several times. I had to go back through the entire game just to make sure I absolutely made the paragon choice every single time. That type of approach also forces players to either pick paragon or renegade every single time, which actually removes player choice. Inquisition. Paragon and Renegade were worthless and irrelevant to me since the lines I chose were based on the context of the scene, tone, what happened prior to the conversation wheel, and my mood. Choices weren't made to be a good guy or a bad guy or to fill up a meter, they were chosen on a whim because I felt like it. Sometimes, I like to talk to Ashley about her family; sometimes I like to make fun of her for believing in God. Sometimes, I let that teenager on Omega get shot by Garrus because that's what his dumbass gets. Since it's an inherently worthless system to me, something that expands on how I use the system is the superior one, which is why talking to people in all three Dragon Age games has always resulted in a more enjoyable dialog control experience than Mass Effect. I definitely agree that from a personal taste perspective, DAI is the better solution for customization. Paragon/Renegade is incredibly limiting and one dimensional, even if the choices could be very satisfying because BioWare was working with two extremes. It's harder to get those satisfying outcomes when you have more subtle and nuanced choices, but hopefully BioWare can pull it off.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 8:26:07 GMT
Paragon/Renegade... Light Side/Dark Side... any system where there's a binary choice and no middle ground... is not going to be as good as a system where there's multiple options. Even DA2's dialogue tone was better than Paragon/Renegade because it gave you three distinct options. ME2 actively punished you for trying to play a middle ground character. SWTOR actively punishes you for playing a middle ground character. If you're going to do a morality system, there needs to be a "neutral" option, or you just need to come up with a different system. The Light/Dark system worked fine in KOTOR because you were a Jedi. In SWTOR, it didn't work nearly as well since you also had non-Jedi classes that players could choose. I think BioWare did a respectable job with Paragon/Renegade in the original trilogy, but it definitely was not perfect by any means. More choices is typically better, but that's only if the consequences from having more choices are still as meaningful.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 8:48:50 GMT
DA:I.
DA:I's approach to dialogue choices about the only thing the DA series ever did better than Mass Effect.
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 22, 2017 9:10:28 GMT
I prefer the approach of not having paragon & renegade. In ME1 & ME2 the neutral dialogue options were often very important to me. However i found how DAI implemented the system was pretty terrible bland mess so can't really vote for any poll that includes it.
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Post by isaidlunch on Feb 22, 2017 9:11:00 GMT
Dialogue systems like ME1/ME2/DA2 are awful, all they do is turn the protagonist into a caricature. The DAI/MEA system allows the protagonist to act like a believable person who reacts differently based on the situation.
Also good riddance to the charm/intimidate options aka brainwashing
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 9:27:25 GMT
I prefer the approach of not having paragon & renegade. In ME1 & ME2 the neutral dialogue options were often very important to me. However i found how DAI implemented the system was pretty terrible bland mess so can't really vote for any poll that includes it. This is my concern. In theory, the DAI approach would be better. However, I found the way dialogue was executed in DAI to be terribly underwhelming. I never really felt as if I connected deeply with my Inquisitor. I also never felt as if half my choices really had any meaning. Sure, I had more options than I did in the Mass Effect trilogy. However, those options didn't really feel like they had meaning or impact due to the consequences typically not being very different, if at all. In Mass Effect, I always felt as if my choices had consequences. The problem with Mass Effect, however, is that I was limited to two extremes with both rarely being realistic or appropriate. If only there was a way to ensure more variety in options but satisfying impact as well.
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