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Post by alanc9 on Feb 24, 2017 7:50:34 GMT
Didn't share those feelings, myself, and we don't seem to have any objective way to measure "impact." Impact is whether your choices actually had a tangible effect on the context of the situation. Oftentimes, dialogue rarely had any kind of impact. Most of the "choices" either came from judgments, which were trivial, arguably the War Table, which was a time sink mini game, and the occasional big choice that revolved around the plot (support mages or templars, support the empress or the usurper, etc.). And I look at the games and ME1 and ME2 are somewhat inferior to DAI. ME's lack of an approval system loses it quite a few points, for instance. I'd score ME3 vs. DAI a tie. Most dialogues in any game have no effect, of course. This proves exactly nothing, obviously.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 9:12:22 GMT
I think I'd actually enjoy the approval system more if your companions would verbally react to your decisions, instead of just seeing an arbitrary rating stating "Cassandra greatly disapproves." I still don't know how much that exactly is and how much it undermines a "Cassandra slightly approves" decision. Having the companions just verbalize their displeasure or happiness would make that entire system far more useful. While I agree with that idea in theory, in practice, it would become quite tedious for a lot of major decisions. We'd have to run down the line with each character taking their turn to either make a face at you or say something. Considering the size of the character roster, it would be extremely jarring. Even in smaller situations where only the three present in your squad can react to you, it would just feel weird having the camera move from person to person as they reacted to your choices. I don't know if the approval system is the best system, but I can't really think of a better way to do what you're suggesting. My point is I want a system where I can at least tell how much approval or disapproval I'm receiving. "X slightly disapproves" and "X greatly approves" is worthless, especially since there is no gauge in the game to have an idea of where you lie on the approval spectrum. Ultimately, I just largely ignored it in DAI because it was so poorly implemented. I like the idea, but BioWare needs a more practical way of translating approval into something the player can understand. At least with gestures, verbal or otherwise, you get a sense of how the companion feels. I'm sure BioWare could figure out a clever way without having to do constant pans to another character showing their displeasure.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 9:23:25 GMT
While I agree with that idea in theory, in practice, it would become quite tedious for a lot of major decisions. We'd have to run down the line with each character taking their turn to either make a face at you or say something. Considering the size of the character roster, it would be extremely jarring. Even in smaller situations where only the three present in your squad can react to you, it would just feel weird having the camera move from person to person as they reacted to your choices. I don't know if the approval system is the best system, but I can't really think of a better way to do what you're suggesting. My point is I want a system where I can at least tell how much approval or disapproval I'm receiving. "X slightly disapproves" and "X greatly approves" is worthless, especially since there is no gauge in the game to have an idea of where you lie on the approval spectrum. Ultimately, I just largely ignored it in DAI because it was so poorly implemented. I like the idea, but BioWare needs a more practical way of translating approval into something the player can understand. At least with gestures, verbal or otherwise, you get a sense of how the companion feels. I'm sure BioWare could figure out a clever way without having to do constant pans to another character showing their displeasure. As much as I like having these things laid out before me in a game, I can't help but feel like having some kind of meter really cheapens the experience. I mean, objectively, that's the most informative and it clearly tells you where you stand with everyone, and exactly how they felt about particular actions. At the same time, I don't like sitting in the Party Camp in Origins and handing out gifts over and over in order to get Morrigan into bed with me before we've even left the Kokiri Wilds. It's weird. The system in DAI really just shows you what course you're currently on. I don't think so much about how much my companions approve, only that they approve. You could pan across all the characters to do that, but it doesn't seem very subtle in its own right. Maybe there is a clever way to do it, but I can't really think of one. At the end of the day, though, what you see on the approval/disapproval system isn't how you measure your relationship with the characters, in any Bioware game. You go through milestone conversations. People confronting you directly for doing something they dislike, or people commending you on helping them or others. Once you've exhausted all of those milestones, you've effectively completed that character's arc, regardless of where you lie on the scale.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 9:34:53 GMT
My point is I want a system where I can at least tell how much approval or disapproval I'm receiving. "X slightly disapproves" and "X greatly approves" is worthless, especially since there is no gauge in the game to have an idea of where you lie on the approval spectrum. Ultimately, I just largely ignored it in DAI because it was so poorly implemented. I like the idea, but BioWare needs a more practical way of translating approval into something the player can understand. At least with gestures, verbal or otherwise, you get a sense of how the companion feels. I'm sure BioWare could figure out a clever way without having to do constant pans to another character showing their displeasure. As much as I like having these things laid out before me in a game, I can't help but feel like having some kind of meter really cheapens the experience. I mean, objectively, that's the most informative and it clearly tells you where you stand with everyone, and exactly how they felt about particular actions. At the same time, I don't like sitting in the Party Camp in Origins and handing out gifts over and over in order to get Morrigan into bed with me before we've even left the Kokiri Wilds. It's weird. The system in DAI really just shows you what course you're currently on. I don't think so much about how much my companions approve, only that they approve. You could pan across all the characters to do that, but it doesn't seem very subtle in its own right. Maybe there is a clever way to do it, but I can't really think of one. At the end of the day, though, what you see on the approval/disapproval system isn't how you measure your relationship with the characters, in any Bioware game. You go through milestone conversations. People confronting you directly for doing something they dislike, or people commending you on helping them or others. Once you've exhausted all of those milestones, you've effectively completed that character's arc, regardless of where you lie on the scale. I agree with you, but we need some way to measure the system, otherwise why even have it? In my eyes, seeing the "approval" text doesn't actually impact my experience one way or the other as I've never gotten to a point where anybody would leave. It just becomes unnecessary clutter on the screen that I see occasionally that really adds nothing. The entire gift system was atrocious in DAO. It wasn't immersive, it wasn't realistic, and it was far too game-y. I don't think BioWare will ever go back to that (SWTOR has it but that's an MMO). That's true, although I do believe you need a certain amount of approval to unlock certain dialogue and to advance the relationship. Of course, there's no way of knowing how much of it is just approval and how much of it is advancing through the story because BioWare doesn't tell us! I'd just like the system to be more organic and realistic, where it's less of accumulating points and you just see how companions react to you. I don't know what would be the easiest way to implement something that reactive. I don't even think we fully know what system MEA has, although it seems to be implied it will have approval of sorts. Squadmates can get upset with you, so that seems to suggest your decisions will impact their perception of you. It's just one of those systems I'd like to see BioWare overhaul and revamp as I believe it has potential, but it's just not there yet.
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Post by kingjuly on Feb 24, 2017 10:47:01 GMT
Im glad they moved away from the Paragon/Renegade system, a lot of the decisions were really subjective and it felt weird when you tried to play a Paragade character, like they were having mood swings.
With the new system based on emotion/logic, it lends itself better to forming the personality of a character who can sometimes be jolly and other times be serious and a bit of an ass without making it feel like they're having mood swings.
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Post by midnightwolf on Feb 24, 2017 11:51:35 GMT
Hmm....While I love the paragon/renegade system of the Trilogy, I prefer the DA one. I've never played a Paragon or Renegade Shepard, because it feels very unrealistic and limiting in terms of 'role-playing'. He's always a mixture of the two. So I'm glad we're moving away from it.
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Post by hector535 on Feb 24, 2017 14:42:25 GMT
I hated the paragon/renegade system, thank God it's gone.
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Post by hammerstorm on Feb 24, 2017 16:18:28 GMT
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 21:47:36 GMT
Hmm....While I love the paragon/renegade system of the Trilogy, I prefer the DA one. I've never played a Paragon or Renegade Shepard, because it feels very unrealistic and limiting in terms of 'role-playing'. He's always a mixture of the two. So I'm glad we're moving away from it. Your Shepard must have came across as an unstable schizophrenic. Picking daisies one second and ripping kitten's heads off the next. That can't be healthy Well that settles it! Thanks! We won't be stumbling in the dark wondering if our companions hate us or not! Great to hear!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 22:22:33 GMT
Well, that basically solves everything, lol.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 22:25:41 GMT
Well, that basically solves everything, lol. I think what's interesting to note about this "relationship menu" is that BioWare is placing far greater emphasis on relationships that ever before in one of their games. Not only must the relationships be incredibly fleshed out, but they may also be far more important to the overall experience than we initially thought. People like to throw around the term "dating simulator" as a joke, but in some ways it sounds like we may be receiving that in a sense.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 22:31:41 GMT
Well, that basically solves everything, lol. I think what's interesting to note about this "relationship menu" is that BioWare is placing far greater emphasis on relationships that ever before in one of their games. Not only must the relationships be incredibly fleshed out, but they may also be far more important to the overall experience than we initially thought. People like to throw around the term "dating simulator" as a joke, but in some ways it sounds like we may be receiving that in a sense. I'm completely okay with that. I honestly often forgot I was chasing Saren in ME1 because of all the random stuff you do along the way. I also never thought the main story for Origins was particularly inspiring. The reason I hold those two games in such high esteem is almost entirely because of the cast. Party members are, by far, my favorite part of a Bioware RPG. I didn't get that same wow factor from ME3 or DAII. Inquisition was about half and half, for me. Seeing a focus on dynamic relationships between characters is a really good thing, I think. I just hope the cast is less polarizing than Inquisition.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 22:54:19 GMT
I think what's interesting to note about this "relationship menu" is that BioWare is placing far greater emphasis on relationships that ever before in one of their games. Not only must the relationships be incredibly fleshed out, but they may also be far more important to the overall experience than we initially thought. People like to throw around the term "dating simulator" as a joke, but in some ways it sounds like we may be receiving that in a sense. I'm completely okay with that. I honestly often forgot I was chasing Saren in ME1 because of all the random stuff you do along the way. I also never thought the main story for Origins was particularly inspiring. The reason I hold those two games in such high esteem is almost entirely because of the cast. Party members are, by far, my favorite part of a Bioware RPG. I didn't get that same wow factor from ME3 or DAII. Inquisition was about half and half, for me. Seeing a focus on dynamic relationships between characters is a really good thing, I think. I just hope the cast is less polarizing than Inquisition. Agreed. The reason why so many love BioWare games is almost always because of the amazing characters. Without the characters you meet along the way, Mass Effect isn't the same experience. It's really less about the main plot and story, but experiencing it with other characters and seeing their thoughts and feelings on the issue. It makes the game feel far more real and establishes a connection between the player and the experience. DAO was essentially a generic dark fantasy ripoff of LOTR, but it was the characters and those adventures together that made it an incredible experience. ME3 largely used a returning cast with really only two new squadmates (Javik and James). I enjoyed Isabela and to a lesser extent Varric in DAII, but the cast of characters definitely wasn't as strong. I do have rather mixed feelings about the DAI cast as well. None of them were outright terrible, but I wasn't really incredibly thrilled by any of them either. I was more happy to see Leliana and Morrigan again... I'm right there with you. So far from what little we've seen, I think I'm going to enjoy this cast quite a bit. They all seem to have their own quirks and idiosyncrasies, but none of them so far seem to be so polarizing that I can't tolerate them.
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Post by midnightwolf on Feb 24, 2017 22:55:47 GMT
Hmm....While I love the paragon/renegade system of the Trilogy, I prefer the DA one. I've never played a Paragon or Renegade Shepard, because it feels very unrealistic and limiting in terms of 'role-playing'. He's always a mixture of the two. So I'm glad we're moving away from it. Your Shepard must have came across as an unstable schizophrenic. Picking daisies one second and ripping kitten's heads off the next. That can't be healthy Well that settles it! Thanks! We won't be stumbling in the dark wondering if our companions hate us or not! Great to hear! LOL! Maybe.....but I just find the whole Paragon or Renegade thing too restricting.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 23:45:52 GMT
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Post by midnightwolf on Feb 24, 2017 23:50:04 GMT
Thank you for the link. But I'd rather not spoil myself by viewing it. Surprise is the spice of life.....apparently. 😊
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 25, 2017 0:22:02 GMT
Par/Ren for me. Yes, it's more simplistic but it's also easier to get the best ending. Pure Par run just makes you feel like a hero with a lot of friends. Pure Ren run makes you feel like a monster. What's the point of dialogue trees if the game only rewards you for picking all paragon or all renegade.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 25, 2017 0:45:27 GMT
Par/Ren for me. Yes, it's more simplistic but it's also easier to get the best ending. Pure Par run just makes you feel like a hero with a lot of friends. Pure Ren run makes you feel like a monster. What's the point of dialogue trees if the game only rewards you for picking all paragon or all renegade. This isn't a problem with Paragon/Renegade per se, though. It's a problem with the way ME2 handled persuasion. ME3 solved the problem, but at the cost of letting a comp'etionist player pass any dialogue skill check.
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 25, 2017 1:17:07 GMT
What's the point of dialogue trees if the game only rewards you for picking all paragon or all renegade. This isn't a problem with Paragon/Renegade per se, though. It's a problem with the way ME2 handled persuasion. ME3 solved the problem, but at the cost of letting a comp'etionist player pass any dialogue skill check. I still always felt compelled to robotically always hit paragon on my paragon playthrough and same for renegade. I like this better because it allows you to react based on the situation and doesn;t penalize you overall for deviating based on the situation.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 25, 2017 4:42:59 GMT
This isn't a problem with Paragon/Renegade per se, though. It's a problem with the way ME2 handled persuasion. ME3 solved the problem, but at the cost of letting a comp'etionist player pass any dialogue skill check. I still always felt compelled to robotically always hit paragon on my paragon playthrough and same for renegade. I like this better because it allows you to react based on the situation and doesn;t penalize you overall for deviating based on the situation. The ME trilogy really encouraged you to stay railroaded as a Paragon or Renegade. Thankfully, this will not be the case in MEA as no dialogue is hidden by having to pick a certain type of option several times.
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 25, 2017 6:00:16 GMT
I still always felt compelled to robotically always hit paragon on my paragon playthrough and same for renegade. I like this better because it allows you to react based on the situation and doesn;t penalize you overall for deviating based on the situation. The ME trilogy really encouraged you to stay railroaded as a Paragon or Renegade. Thankfully, this will not be the case in MEA as no dialogue is hidden by having to pick a certain type of option several times. In a way, at least I hope, I will get to make decisions based on how I would answer if I was put in that situation. In the OT on my first playthroughs, I would answer paragon because I genuinely like to be a nicer person or caring towards people unless I'm pushed to be an asshole then I usually lose my temper/patience. I was never really pushed to to be an asshole except that damn reporter lady by the third game. I also enjoy sarcasm or being a smart ass sometimes but that typically required the renegade option which never really came off as such. I hoping the dialogue reflects our choices well, and I hope that not every situation is black or white to the point that I can be good but also be pissed off because of something said in the game
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 25, 2017 6:09:21 GMT
The ME trilogy really encouraged you to stay railroaded as a Paragon or Renegade. Thankfully, this will not be the case in MEA as no dialogue is hidden by having to pick a certain type of option several times. In a way, at least I hope, I will get to make decisions based on how I would answer if I was put in that situation. In the OT on my first playthroughs, I would answer paragon because I genuinely like to be a nicer person or caring towards people unless I'm pushed to be an asshole then I usually lose my temper/patience. I was never really pushed to to be an asshole except that damn reporter lady by the third game. I also enjoy sarcasm or being a smart ass sometimes but that typically required the renegade option which never really came off as such. I hoping the dialogue reflects our choices well, and I hope that not every situation is black or white to the point that I can be good but also be pissed off because of something said in the game Well we know there's a casual, professional, emotional, and logical choice. Casual is supposed to apparently be the sarcastic, carefree choice. Professional is apparently more like Shepard. Emotional is going to be the more impulsive choice. Lastly, logical is clearly going to be the reasoned choice. Depending on the context and the circumstances will depend on how those templates shift and mold for each choice.
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Post by ryerye17 on Feb 25, 2017 10:50:16 GMT
Par/Ren for me. Yes, it's more simplistic but it's also easier to get the best ending. Pure Par run just makes you feel like a hero with a lot of friends. Pure Ren run makes you feel like a monster. What's the point of dialogue trees if the game only rewards you for picking all paragon or all renegade. Simple. Perfect completionist playthroughs. I like simple right and wrong choices because I can google/wiki what to say to maximize everything. Again DAI screwed this up because hitting top right all the time can cause some companions to slightly disapprove/disapprove.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Feb 25, 2017 11:50:40 GMT
I want my renegade interrupts
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 25, 2017 23:00:02 GMT
What's the point of dialogue trees if the game only rewards you for picking all paragon or all renegade. Simple. Perfect completionist playthroughs. I like simple right and wrong choices because I can google/wiki what to say to maximize everything. Again DAI screwed this up because hitting top right all the time can cause some companions to slightly disapprove/disapprove. Well, BioWare did that intentionally. They don't want there to be a "right" and a "wrong" way to advance through dialogue. They want the players to actually think about the choices they are makng. Thus, there is always going to be someone who disagrees with how you handle the situation. It's just more realistic and we know that isn't going away with MEA either. I want my renegade interrupts Interrupts have been renamed to "Impulse Actions." They aren't going to necessarily be paragon or renegade in tone, but they definitely will still happen and will quickly change the dynamics of the dialogue happening at the time.
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