stysiaq
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Gigavorcha Breeder
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by stysiaq on Feb 23, 2017 7:19:26 GMT
The answer will always be dragon age origins.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 7:37:08 GMT
The answer will always be dragon age origins. I'm afraid you are going to need a time machine if you ever expect BioWare, or any other AAA RPG studio, to make a game with a silent protagonist ever again. Even BGS has made the switch with their most recent outing in Fallout 4, although even I'll admit their execution of a voiced protagonist was less than stellar. Commander Shepard was a game changer.
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Gigavorcha Breeder
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: Stysiaq
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Post by stysiaq on Feb 23, 2017 7:41:04 GMT
The answer will always be dragon age origins. I'm afraid you are going to need a time machine if you ever expect BioWare, or any other AAA RPG studio, to make a game with a silent protagonist ever again. Even BGS has made the switch with their most recent outing in Fallout 4, although even I'll admit their execution of a voiced protagonist was less than stellar. Commander Shepard was a game changer. I still don't see it happening in next elder scrolls.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 7:45:05 GMT
I'm afraid you are going to need a time machine if you ever expect BioWare, or any other AAA RPG studio, to make a game with a silent protagonist ever again. Even BGS has made the switch with their most recent outing in Fallout 4, although even I'll admit their execution of a voiced protagonist was less than stellar. Commander Shepard was a game changer. I still don't see it happening in next elder scrolls. That's very likely, given that there are ten races with their own distinct voices to choose from. However, Todd Howard also stated after releasing Fallout 4 that he was interested in continuing to improve on the voiced protagonist idea, so who knows? It could be the first main line TES game to feature a voiced protagonist. BGS might even limit our choice in race depending on what the story is and what is happening in Tamriel. Honestly, I wouldn't put anything past BGS.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 23, 2017 8:21:12 GMT
Can I vote for both? Neither? I feel both systems have their pros and cons. I actually think DA2 had the best dialogue system, though I may be in the minority on that one. But I enjoyed it because each of the 3 options had very distinct voices and personalities...something I thought DAI was lacking despite the broader range of options. P/R was limited to essentially consensus builder vs. ruthless pragmatist with some small middle ground. Still if my choices are strictly P/R vs. DAI, I'll take P/R...because at least I felt like a paragon of virtue or hard ass veteran within those confines. I had 4 DAI playthroughs, and despite playing 4 very different characters, they didn't end up feeling very distinct from one another. Yeah despite the flaws of those systems i'd definitely take them over a repeat of DAI's blanditude approach. If they are willing to take the inquisition system and allow us to react to situations with an actual broader range of less bland characterisation then that would be ok too.
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 23, 2017 8:25:21 GMT
I think people are confusing the actual DAI system with the choices implemented in said system. In itself, DAI has a four tone options system with no morality scale that unlocks persuasion options. Based on that, I prefer this one over ME's. Granted, I do prefer a wider variety in the options compared to DAI's, but this is a separate issue.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 8:50:03 GMT
I think people are confusing the actual DAI system with the choices implemented in said system. In itself, DAI has a four tone options system with no morality scale that unlocks persuasion options. Based on that, I prefer this one over ME's. Granted, I do prefer a wider variety in the options compared to DAI's, but this is a separate issue. I don't believe anyone is saying the DAI system, itself, is bad. It was the implementation of the system (i.e. particular choices in that game) that some of us take issue with. If MEA can rectify the shortcomings DAI had by having far better choices with more meaningful outcomes, I believe most of the fan base will be happy.
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Post by snorkamus on Feb 23, 2017 9:48:01 GMT
As long as the job gets done, i don't care about the rest.
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Post by laxian on Feb 23, 2017 12:22:14 GMT
I'd prefer DA:O or Fallout: New Vegas like dialogue I don't love the wheel and while I don't hate the paragon/renegade system I have no problem with it being gone! I'd love to have more possibilities again (not just 4 or so ) greetings LAX Silent Protagonists are a thing of the past, and a entirely different discussion. Mass Effect made the voiced protagonist a staple for BioWare games and that's not going to change. The only thing we can hope for is that the voiced protagonist provides enough variety in choices and that those choices have meaningful impacts. That's a lot to ask for, and it's certainly a development nightmare for BioWare, but that's ultimately what the fans want. I wasn't talking about silent protagonist (weren't you reading what I wrote?), I'd love that, but it never was Mass Effect, so it wouldn't fit here! I was talking about MORE OPTIONS (!), unlike in Dragon Age or Fallout 4 (and I am against getting only a a summary of what my character is going to say! I want the full thing spelled out!) greetings LAX
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 23, 2017 15:03:12 GMT
Silent Protagonists are a thing of the past, and a entirely different discussion. Mass Effect made the voiced protagonist a staple for BioWare games and that's not going to change. The only thing we can hope for is that the voiced protagonist provides enough variety in choices and that those choices have meaningful impacts. That's a lot to ask for, and it's certainly a development nightmare for BioWare, but that's ultimately what the fans want. I wasn't talking about silent protagonist (weren't you reading what I wrote?), I'd love that, but it never was Mass Effect, so it wouldn't fit here! I was talking about MORE OPTIONS (!), unlike in Dragon Age or Fallout 4 (and I am against getting only a a summary of what my character is going to say! I want the full thing spelled out!) greetings LAX Was there really more options with Dragon Age: Origins? I remember aside from the rare occasion there being at most six options for a dialogue option and most of those would fall under the "Investigate" option on the middle left of the dialogue wheel for you would cycle back to the first screen. I don't see how seeing every word your character is going to say helps either, I had Morrigan leave once because I thought I was presenting what was written one way and it was more sarcastic then I intended it to me so it was not very informative either. BioWare has been getting much better since the first implementation of the dialogue wheel and with Inquisition I would say almost the entire game all my dialogue options came out exactly as I had planned.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 17:45:33 GMT
Silent Protagonists are a thing of the past, and a entirely different discussion. Mass Effect made the voiced protagonist a staple for BioWare games and that's not going to change. The only thing we can hope for is that the voiced protagonist provides enough variety in choices and that those choices have meaningful impacts. That's a lot to ask for, and it's certainly a development nightmare for BioWare, but that's ultimately what the fans want. I wasn't talking about silent protagonist (weren't you reading what I wrote?), I'd love that, but it never was Mass Effect, so it wouldn't fit here! I was talking about MORE OPTIONS (!), unlike in Dragon Age or Fallout 4 (and I am against getting only a a summary of what my character is going to say! I want the full thing spelled out!) greetings LAX You mentioned two games with silent protagonists, so forgive me for misunderstanding... What you want has never been Mass Effect. I'm not sure why you think Andromeda would change that. The classic BioWare dialogue from games like KOTOR, JE, and DAO is not coming back.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 23, 2017 17:55:09 GMT
I wasn't talking about silent protagonist (weren't you reading what I wrote?), I'd love that, but it never was Mass Effect, so it wouldn't fit here! I was talking about MORE OPTIONS (!), unlike in Dragon Age or Fallout 4 (and I am against getting only a a summary of what my character is going to say! I want the full thing spelled out!) greetings LAX Was there really more options with Dragon Age: Origins? I remember aside from the rare occasion there being at most six options for a dialogue option and most of those would fall under the "Investigate" option on the middle left of the dialogue wheel for you would cycle back to the first screen. I don't see how seeing every word your character is going to say helps either, I had Morrigan leave once because I thought I was presenting what was written one way and it was more sarcastic then I intended it to me so it was not very informative either. BioWare has been getting much better since the first implementation of the dialogue wheel and with Inquisition I would say almost the entire game all my dialogue options came out exactly as I had planned. I actually remember doing a playthrough of origins after this "Only 3-4 options!" hoopla cropped up over DA2. And lo and behold, very rarely did the options in a DAO dialogue exceed 3-4. When it did, it was usually investigation type stuff.
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lovelypumpkin
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Post by lovelypumpkin on Feb 23, 2017 18:34:55 GMT
In Mass Effect, you were given two obvious choices. Red meant bad and blue meant good. While it was sort of limited, we still had an idea of how the option would play out and it did drastically alter Shepard and future situations, but not so much your squad mates opinion of you.
With Dragon Age, you don't really know what you're going to get - you might choose an option because it looks funny, but once you select it your character is inexplicably pissed off. It provides a larger variety of options, but it doesn't alter your character as drastically. It does change how your party members view you because it earns either approval or disapproval, but that's sort of like playing Russian Roulette, you don't really know what you're going to get.
I love both for their own reasons, of course. Mass Effect for its simplicity and Dragon Age for it variety.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 19:37:39 GMT
With Dragon Age, you don't really know what you're going to get - you might choose an option because it looks funny, but once you select it your character is inexplicably pissed off. It provides a larger variety of options, but it doesn't alter your character as drastically. It does change how your party members view you because it earns either approval or disapproval, but that's sort of like playing Russian Roulette, you don't really know what you're going to get.
Hmm... I thought the pissed-off lines were easy to spot. They're always in the lower right position.
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Post by nolerhn on Feb 23, 2017 19:56:08 GMT
Definitely DAI style for me. While I loved the trilogy, I was straight paragon or renegade choice to make sure I wouldn't miss a charm option down the road.
And there were times I wanted to do a renegade interrupt or choice on paragon plays that I rarely did for fear of not getting enough paragon points. Also meant I practically never chose neutral options after losing wrex in my original play through when I couldn't do a peaceful resolution. Pretty sure kaiden killed him....but its been years and years.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 20:42:49 GMT
In Mass Effect, you were given two obvious choices. Red meant bad and blue meant good. While it was sort of limited, we still had an idea of how the option would play out and it did drastically alter Shepard and future situations, but not so much your squad mates opinion of you.
With Dragon Age, you don't really know what you're going to get - you might choose an option because it looks funny, but once you select it your character is inexplicably pissed off. It provides a larger variety of options, but it doesn't alter your character as drastically. It does change how your party members view you because it earns either approval or disapproval, but that's sort of like playing Russian Roulette, you don't really know what you're going to get.
I love both for their own reasons, of course. Mass Effect for its simplicity and Dragon Age for it variety. I thought BioWare did a rather respectable job of determining tone with the icons next to the choices. The main problem I had was that rarely did any of those varying choices really have any different outcomes. Because Mass Effect really only had two choices (occasionally a neutral one), BioWare was able to design the game to show to divergent paths that truly felt unique and satisfying. Whereas with DAI, I just felt as if a lot of my options were pointless fluff that didn't really matter. It's nice having a bit more direction over what your character says, but is also somewhat meaningless if the choice inevitably doesn't matter.
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Post by Petroshenko on Feb 23, 2017 20:57:13 GMT
I prefer (much) more than 2 options so if Bioware pulls another ME3 dialogue system with nearly exclusive 2-option responses they shouldn't even bother
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 22:10:05 GMT
I prefer (much) more than 2 options so if Bioware pulls another ME3 dialogue system with nearly exclusive 2-option responses they shouldn't even bother MEA is using the DAI dialogue system, so you shouldn't have to worry about a lack of options. The question is whether or not most of those options will actually even matter.
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Post by souljahbill14 on Feb 23, 2017 22:58:18 GMT
Why does a conversation have to "matter." Decisions, I understand but do the conversations have to have deep impact too? Why can't we talk for the sake of information or team building or whatever?
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 23:15:48 GMT
Why does a conversation have to "matter." Decisions, I understand but do the conversations have to have deep impact too? Why can't we talk for the sake of information or team building or whatever? That's perfectly fine. I don't mind gossip, when it's appropriate. What I don't like is when most of the dialogue in the game could be construed as pointless gossip with little impact. There came across as a serious lack of player choice in DAI. Yes, there was some choice. However, the game felt far more constrained than what is usual for a BioWare game. Honestly, the most "impact" I had in DAI was because of Dragon Age Keep by importing the two previous games.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 24, 2017 0:26:48 GMT
Didn't share those feelings, myself, and we don't seem to have any objective way to measure "impact."
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 0:36:43 GMT
Didn't share those feelings, myself, and we don't seem to have any objective way to measure "impact." Impact is whether your choices actually had a tangible effect on the context of the situation. Oftentimes, dialogue rarely had any kind of impact. Most of the "choices" either came from judgments, which were trivial, arguably the War Table, which was a time sink mini game, and the occasional big choice that revolved around the plot (support mages or templars, support the empress or the usurper, etc.).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 7:25:36 GMT
With Dragon Age, you don't really know what you're going to get - you might choose an option because it looks funny, but once you select it your character is inexplicably pissed off. It provides a larger variety of options, but it doesn't alter your character as drastically. It does change how your party members view you because it earns either approval or disapproval, but that's sort of like playing Russian Roulette, you don't really know what you're going to get.
Hmm... I thought the pissed-off lines were easy to spot. They're always in the lower right position. And snarky options are almost always in the middle. It was actually a fairly easy to read system. I also like not knowing how my companions are going to react to what I say. It's like real life. You say what you're thinking, and people will either like it or they won't. It feels less like I'm trying to earn points with my companions, and more like I'm being conscious of what I say, like any non sociopath would do, because it can be potentially harmful.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 7:42:08 GMT
Hmm... I thought the pissed-off lines were easy to spot. They're always in the lower right position. And snarky options are almost always in the middle. It was actually a fairly easy to read system. I also like not knowing how my companions are going to react to what I say. It's like real life. You say what you're thinking, and people will either like it or they won't. It feels less like I'm trying to earn points with my companions, and more like I'm being conscious of what I say, like any non sociopath would do, because it can be potentially harmful. I think I'd actually enjoy the approval system more if your companions would verbally react to your decisions, instead of just seeing an arbitrary rating stating "Cassandra greatly disapproves." I still don't know how much that exactly is and how much it undermines a "Cassandra slightly approves" decision. Having the companions just verbalize their displeasure or happiness would make that entire system far more useful.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 7:47:49 GMT
And snarky options are almost always in the middle. It was actually a fairly easy to read system. I also like not knowing how my companions are going to react to what I say. It's like real life. You say what you're thinking, and people will either like it or they won't. It feels less like I'm trying to earn points with my companions, and more like I'm being conscious of what I say, like any non sociopath would do, because it can be potentially harmful. I think I'd actually enjoy the approval system more if your companions would verbally react to your decisions, instead of just seeing an arbitrary rating stating "Cassandra greatly disapproves." I still don't know how much that exactly is and how much it undermines a "Cassandra slightly approves" decision. Having the companions just verbalize their displeasure or happiness would make that entire system far more useful. While I agree with that idea in theory, in practice, it would become quite tedious for a lot of major decisions. We'd have to run down the line with each character taking their turn to either make a face at you or say something. Considering the size of the character roster, it would be extremely jarring. Even in smaller situations where only the three present in your squad can react to you, it would just feel weird having the camera move from person to person as they reacted to your choices. I don't know if the approval system is the best system, but I can't really think of a better way to do what you're suggesting.
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